issuing ultimatums vs enforcing boundaries

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I gather that when dealing with a pwBPD, ultimatums are useless, since they struggle to control their behavior.  And that's why setting boundaries for yourself is important.

one of our longtime issues centers around my wife frequently accusing me of infidelity.  Generally, she doesn't come right out and say it, but she'll make some sort of weaselly remark in response to something I say or do, like "oh everyone you talked to at work liked that movie?  who exactly?  anyone I should be worried about?

when I get annoyed by this and ask why she still doesn't trust me, and what real evidence does she have for suspecting me of being unfaithful, she tries to play it off as "just asking a question"

and if I react hostilely to this - as I increasingly do because I am really sick of this - it "proves" in her mind that there IS something going on, and she's right to be  concerned.

This really bothers me for a couple reasons:
1) I just don't like being accused of infidelity, and vague attacks on my character and reputation, esp. from my own wife of all people

2) I have to police myself and self-censor, lest I trigger her.  Stories or memories I would like to share or discuss get buried because I don't know how she'll react to them.

3) she makes these allegations in front of my kids, with no concern for what they'll think or feel.  our oldest is definitely with it enough to pick up on the fact that something isn't right between his parents.

[PeteWitsend]

I gather that when dealing with a pwBPD, ultimatums are useless, since they struggle to control their behavior.  And that's why setting boundaries for yourself is important.

one of our longtime issues centers around my wife frequently accusing me of infidelity.  Generally, she doesn't come right out and say it, but she'll make some sort of weaselly remark in response to something I say or do, like "oh everyone you talked to at work liked that movie?  who exactly?  anyone I should be worried about?

when I get annoyed by this and ask why she still doesn't trust me, and what real evidence does she have for suspecting me of being unfaithful, she tries to play it off as "just asking a question"

and if I react hostilely to this - as I increasingly do because I am really sick of this - it "proves" in her mind that there IS something going on, and she's right to be  concerned.

This really bothers me for a couple reasons:
1) I just don't like being accused of infidelity, and vague attacks on my character and reputation, esp. from my own wife of all people

2) I have to police myself and self-censor, lest I trigger her.  Stories or memories I would like to share or discuss get buried because I don't know how she'll react to them.

3) she makes these allegations in front of my kids, with no concern for what they'll think or feel.  our oldest is definitely with it enough to pick up on the fact that something isn't right between his parents.

[PeteWitsend]

pt 2:

yesterday I blew up at her after - out of the blue - she demanded to know why I was looking at my phone. 

it was the middle of the day, and I had just come home for lunch, and to take our son to visit a potentially new school for him, and had to get back to work.

when I started to explain I just got a boatload of new emails and I was seeing what they were about, I got bowled over by angry accusations "can I see them?"  "I am your wife, I have a right to know who you're texting" and then she said "You sure act like someone with something to hide" before slamming the door in my face.

this all happened out of the blue... .  once what was happening sunk in, I was angry.  I exploded at her over the phone, and we spent much of the rest of the afternoon sending angry texts.

I told her she cannot look at my phone anymore, period.

 I guess that's one boundary that's easy to enforce.

I also demanded she apologize and promise to stop making these accusations and allegations, unless she has actual proof.

This one is harder to enforce... .I guess when she starts doing it, I can just leave the room.  but physically avoiding her is not always possible (like if we're on an airplane)

[formflier]

I told her she cannot look at my phone anymore, period.

 I guess that's one boundary that's easy to enforce.

I also demanded she apologize and promise to stop making these accusations and allegations, unless she has actual proof.
 

   

Thumbs up for the broad direction you are taking.

Angry texts... .do I really need to ask or say more about this?  It helped the situation... how?


This used to be "most" of my relationship.  Dude... .I kid you not... my wife suspected that I would fly in early from military deployments... .bang other women.  Then I would get dropped off at the airport where my wife would pick me up... thinking I just flew in.

I later introduced my wife to my baby at McDonalds... .where a lady with a baby with my wife's name (which is unique) was playing in playland.  That's how I snuck my baby on my military insurance... .because the names were the same.

Trust me dude... .I'm a effin genius when it comes to being married and having a harem as well.  Whenever you actually want to get something going on the side... send me a PM.


Hotel records, flight records, official military travel reports signed under penalty of perjury... .none of that mattered.

In fact... when I tried to use facts to prove myself innocent... .or "deal with it"... .it actually made the situation worse.

Part of what you did made the situation worse... .pop quiz... .which part?

I challenge you to express the phone boundary as it relates to your values and to the value you place on your relationship with your wife.  Practice here first.

Goal:  One more succinct discussion with your wife about your values and the resulting boundary... .and from then on... enforcement with very little discussion... .and a nonchalant attitude.

Dude... .trust me... .I understand that you just read that and were like "but... but... ."  This stuff is really hard... .you are right to be pissed... .this stuff is exhausting... .

 

Gotta run... .I've not been properly "servicing" my harem lately... .gotta get back to it.  That's hard work as well... .


FF

[PeteWitsend]

Part of what you did made the situation worse... .pop quiz... .which part?

uh, gee, I'd have to assume the angry texts?

I started out by saying I wanted an apology, and a promise she'd stop doing this nonsense, but when she called up and blamed me for it, I also screamed at her, and when she started to argue who said what,(it's my own fault she accused me of being a cheater for looking at email... .) and told her to "STFU" & "F.O.".  I couldn't help it.  I was so mad that she would just dump that attack on me; I felt like I took a sucker-punch, and wanted to punch back.

I mean, we just made up from our last big fight where the ":)" word was actually mentioned.  we agreed to stay more concerned and mindful of eachother's feelings.  I planned a picnic at the beach and nice dinner for Mother's Day - which went great, and she and my MIL both loved.  We had been having a nice week, and had just taken our son to visit his new school for the fall.  And then as I'm getting ready to head back to work for the afternoon, I'm getting hit with allegations I'm hiding something right in front of my own son.

I'm so tired of it.  

I could see if something happened to make her suspicious.  Fine ask.  but she knows where I am at all times.  Work->home.  if I do go out, I let her know where I'm going (hardware store, grocery store, etc.)  I have no friends or acquaintances outside work in this area (we moved here 2.5 years ago), and I'm not spending time out with other people.  no ex-GFs are around, nothing, and she knows all this.

but it felt really satisfying to punch back.  I hate to admit it.  I wanted her to know that I'm at my breaking point.  

I've given up caring whether she trusts me or not, or trying to address her feelings and concerns.  There's no point to it.  

I want her to understand this, and know that If she's going to continue to fight me, attack me verbally, accuse me of things, etc. she should expect the same hostile & immediate response each time from now on.

[formflier]

I've given up caring whether she trusts me or not, or trying to address her feelings and concerns.  There's no point to it.  

 

You are correct... .my hope and prayer is that you will stop any form of "addressing" these things.  They are her feelings... .let her care for them... or not.  That's your choice.

I'm interested in you caring for your feelings.

Stop telling her where you are going, switch to more broad things.

Stop discussing your phone with her... .100%... .well... .except for one little thing.

IF she asks why... or it seems like the right time... .I want you to be succinct.

"I was deeply hurt by your suggestion of infidelity and my phones involvement."  short pause "Should you desire to reconcile your baseless accusation, I'll consider discussing private details in my phone again."

stop... .no more talking.

Let her connect the dots

She may never... hint... .you are better off.

She may... .hint... her trying to reconcile... even badly... .is good... .you are better off.


Second part of this.

When she starts hinting... ."suggesting" that you are the neighborhood meat store for all the ladies... ."It appears you feel concerned by something... .would you like my reassurances of my feelings for you?"

Do no reassure her... unless she directly asks.  If she tells you she knows how you feel... .bless her heart... .let her connect those dots... don't save her.

But seriously... .if she softens... reassure her... gently.  Listen.

If she hardens... .see above.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Pete, My Ex used to snoop on my phone, too, so I put a password on it.  I think everyone is entitled to their right to privacy and that starts with the phone.  Same for one's email account.  It's about one's independence, privacy and freedom from unreasonable "searches and seizures" as guaranteed by our U.S. Constitution!  That's one of my boundaries.

On another subject, you wrote:

I want her to understand this, and know that If she's going to continue to fight me, attack me verbally, accuse me of things, etc. she should expect the same hostile & immediate response each time from now on.

I did this.  Whenever my BPDxW treated me unkindly, I gave it right back to her, twice as bad, with both barrels.  In other words, I fought fire with fire, if not a burning torch.  Yet I don't recommend this approach.  It's better than being a doormat, but it only creates a bigger conflagration.  I found myself stooping to my Ex's level, lowering my standards and behaving in uncharacteristic ways that I wasn't proud of.

So in Phase Three, after being the doormat and then fighting fire with fire, I elected to rise above it through disengagement.  I refused to let her goad me into circular arguments through insults and other personal attacks.  That was my boundary: I would decline to participate in any sort of drama.  I would leave the room, leave the house, or stay at a motel, as necessary.  It was hard at first, yet I taught myself to stay above the fray.  In a way, it was a form of mindfulness, though with I achieved a kind of personal freedom.

I can't tell you what to do, and I don't know what is right for you, but maybe you can draw some pointers from my experience that might be applicable to your situation.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

 I found myself stooping to my Ex's level, lowering my standards and behaving in uncharacteristic ways that I wasn't proud of.

Here is the thing... .pwBPD have way more practice at this... .than we do.  They will usually "win" in a BPD fight.

"if you roll with pigs... you'll get muddy."

So... .use the analogy that you don't like to get muddy... .and just don't. 

Don't be a doormat either.  The exact words and actions you will use will take a lot of trial and error.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My current husband as well as my ex, both have similar styles of anger. Fortunately my current hubby does not get as out-of-control angry as my ex did and he never does anything even approaching violence, but his face will get red and his voice will boom.

Through what I've learned here, I've been able to usually manage these situations and turn down the temperature before it ever approaches full-blown anger on his part.

My style of anger is icy cold. Anger gets me to be strategic and planning and my expression of it is total disengagement and any dealings with him that are necessary become entirely utilitarian.

Both of us tend to be mindful of our language, so that any interaction if it were transcribed, would appear polite. It's the tone of voice, the facial expressions and the body language that give away our true emotions.

For me, I absolutely hate getting "hot" angry. It makes me physically uncomfortable and it takes a long time for me to recover from that. So I don't. Also I hate the loss of control that comes with it. I have contempt for people who do that to others.

Now, being BPD, he is very affected by my turning into an emotionless robot when I get angry. But I'm not "doing" anything that he can point a finger of blame at. So, I find it very effective and I can stay centered.

Everybody's got different styles, but this works for me.

[PeteWitsend]

thanks guys,

I know that controlling my own behavior is on me.  thanks, LJ for the story.  I think our situations have a lot of similarities.

The analogy about wrestling in the mud is a good one.  I need to work on how I respond and not let her drag me down into the mud with her; I can't control how she behaves, but I can control how I react.  That's pretty much the sine qua non here, and I need to memorize that phrase.

 If my kids are present when she attacks me, or rages on, I can only provide a model of how to respond, and, if necessary, address things with them one-on-one later.  

going forward, I've resolved to handle these issues the following way:
1) a request to see my phone/email/social media is a hard "no," with a reminder of why.

2) accusations of infidelity/lack of commitment, if made in a reasonable way, I will respond by asking if she needs reassurance from me, and only then will I provide it if so.

3) if #2 leads to hostility or she is hostile about it outright, I'm simply going to leave the situation to the greatest extent possible.  

I've done #3 a few times already in the last year when I see things going off the rails.  Never about this, which was in my mind a more minor source of conflict between us, but has really put me over the edge.  

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Pete, Sounds like a plan.  Yup, I have been in your shoes.

Like how you put this:

I need to work on how I respond and not let her drag me down into the mud with her; I can't control how she behaves, but I can control how I react.  That's pretty much the sine qua non here, and I need to memorize that phrase.

Yes, that is the sine qua non.  You nailed it!

LJ

[formflier]

 If my kids are present when she attacks me, or rages on, I can only provide a model of how to respond, and, if necessary, address things with them one-on-one later.  
 

Noo... .there is much more you can do that just provide an example.  Although an example is good... especially for lower level outbursts.

Protect the kids... .


If your wife starts in adult stuff or crazyness... .send you kids to their rooms have the close the doors and let them know you will come get them when the adult talk is over.

Now... .I certainly don't advocate this for every snide remark... but full scale rage... .tossing things... whatever.

Depending on the circumstance it may be time to get them in the car and leave.

My wife liked to have an "audience"... .she would gather kids and inform them of my faults... .yet also her religious thing was I was "in charge" at home and kids had to obey me.

So... I didn't debate the content of what she said... .it was just "adult talk"... not for kids... .kids go to rooms... .I go to another room... my wife gets to talk all she want.  

She just doesn't have an audience.

Yeah... .my wife went batsh*t crazy the first couple times I took away her audience.

After she calmed... I invited her to explain to kids why they should stay... .and she couldn't figure a reason... .she knew i would go public or escalate boundary enforcement... .so... .there hasn't been a "lecture" in a long time... .4-5 months.

Think this through ahead of time.  

FF

[PeteWitsend]

well, FF, my kids are young (almost 3 and 4 1/2), and I worry about telling them to "please go in another room right now" will affect them, especially if BPDw views that action as a provocation, and escalates the rage.

so now instead of just telling her I don't agree/approve, and leaving the room myself, we're in a whole shouting match with the kids freaking out.

I don't know.  Maybe I can work it... .have to ruminate on this a little more.

[formflier]

Listen... .I assume you teach your kids to obey Mommy and Daddy... .right?

And I would assume you teach them there are adult things and kids things.

Perhaps you announce this is an adult thing... .if your wife demands they stay and listen... .at least you have clarified what you are dealing with.

Although I doubt she would keep up that attitude long term... .in calmer comments... .do you think she would realize her position is NOT defensible?

Yes... .her "crazy" will take it as a provocation... .

FF

[Red5]

Hey Pete, late to the post as usual I am, .I am right there with you as I too am right in the middle of yet another “conflagration” as Lucky Jim calls it, no not in regards to my harem as FF relates, but something about a severed underground electrical line (long story) that runs about a hundred feet from the house to the water pump, oh yeah, I was using Lucky Jim’s flamethrower last evening , and FF is correct, never a great idea, but you see, after splitting very large oak blocks for firewood all day prior to the hired mans incident with the excavator and the water pump power cable... .,it was my goal  to have a nice hot shower, as no volts AC means no water from pump... .I was determined to override the queen of chaos and the madam of madness on this one, a quick fix was in order, and it was my idea to trench through a myriad of oak tree roots today after Church thus to effect a more permit fix, but no, u/BPD wife had other hair brained ideas, and I used those words exactly as I plunged the screw driver into the dry wall out on the garage whilst troubleshooting with a voltage meter;... .and told her to just go back into the house... .yeah; another “conflagration” for the record book ... .gotta go for now, talk again soon, hang in there Pete,

Red5

[PeteWitsend]

I'm gearing up for a storm today.

So a couple days ago my aunt called and said she planned on coming to visit us, as she and my uncle are visiting a nearby town for a trade show.

I told my aunt, "look you can come but things are pretty rough right now." and gave her a little background.  (aunt has experienced my BPDw's rage a couple times before). 

my aunt had apparently told my wife about this planned visit weeks ago, but wife never passed this news on for some reason.  anyways, I guess aunt said she wouldn't say a peep to my wife but would call her and if everything went okay, she'd come.  I guess it did b/c aunt texted me she would see me sunday.

Fastforward to today:

- Wife keeps referring to my aunt as "great aunt" and when I told our oldest son "Aunt B is coming today" made a big show of correcting me and explaining it's his "great aunt."  this seemed odd, as we've always just referred to all aunts and even older family friends as "aunt."

Wife then started really questioning me on how old my own great aunts were when I was born... .yes, some were younger than my current aunt is to our kids.
 
- wife leaves room, then comes back in super happy, like something changed in her... .

UH OH.

- then I sit down to eat my breakfast, and wife sits down next to me and starts painting her fingernails at the table.  "OH SORRY, I CAN SEE THE SMELL BOTHERS YOU."

- then I get a "I'm really just trying to connect with you here.  what are you thinking?  Tell me something."

me (realizing I'm standing on a landmine) "Just thinking about the things I need to finish up before my aunt gets here."

- OH... .OKAY, I'LL LEAVE YOU ALONE THEN.

- wife goes and sits on laptop

[PeteWitsend]

so here's what will happen today:

at some point, my aunt will say something my wife takes exception to.  Or decides to take exception to, since it will be something no one else even picks up on

my wife will then explode - waiting for my reaction.  If I don't express the same level of outrage to my aunt that my wife has, I will be accused of "not standing with my wife" and/or "always siding with my family against my wife" and the rest of the visit will be awkward, with wife not speaking to anyone, and everyone else just marking time until the visit is over.

I'm taking bets... .who's in?

[gilac]

your first post, every word is spot on how my relationship went haha

she even made me show her my whole friend list on fb and to justify every female person I had on the list, I was always "the one who cheats" every day

and here we are today... I'm still thinking of her, not interested in anyone, while she's adding friends, her previous stalkers and accepts every stranger to contact her on social media

but, my confrontation to those things and ignoring them by time led to her dumping me, she was probably convinced that "something was going on"
I always thought that her ideas were based on her own needs and fantasies so by logic she thought that I'm doing the same thing

[PeteWitsend]

your first post, every word is spot on how my relationship went haha

she even made me show her my whole friend list on fb and to justify every female person I had on the list, I was always "the one who cheats" every day

and here we are today... I'm still thinking of her, not interested in anyone, while she's adding friends, her previous stalkers and accepts every stranger to contact her on social media

but, my confrontation to those things and ignoring them by time led to her dumping me, she was probably convinced that "something was going on"
I always thought that her ideas were based on her own needs and fantasies so by logic she thought that I'm doing the same thing

consider yourself lucky that you're not married to her!

In other news, astonishingly we beat the odds and my aunt's visit didn't go off the rails.

It sure started rocky, and looked to be headed that way, but the happy interactions between our kids and my aunt seemed to cause BPDw to forget she was supposed to maintain her "angry and disapproving demeanor" the whole time, and softened a bit.

at dinner, I sat next to my aunt, after my MIL and BPDw sat next to eachother with our kids in between; seating arrangements are often a potentially "doomsday   scenario" kind of decision with pwBPD, so I waited to let her decide where she wanted to sit. 

wife & MIL seemed to be having their own conversation so I was talking to my aunt. at some point wife said "Can you speak up, I can't hear what you're saying over there" and had that unhinged look in her eyes, pupils dilated... . 

WHOA!  here we go! I thought.

but I just said, "Oh sorry, we'll speak up" ... .and as she finished her glass of wine around this time, and seemed to mellow out after that.  

the evening ended more or less fine.

Sometimes you never can tell with them!

[Red5]

Good Morning Pete! & Hope things are better today,

Yes, I can concur, the (FOO) Family interactions can be quite "dicey" sometimes, .oh yes !

A quick war story... .

So Red5 is sitting on the couch last evening, next to his u/BPD wife, they are watching the tube, another re-run of ":)ownton Abbey" is on, .it is Red5's intention to split away, after S31(special needs) is tucked into bed at 21:00, and disappear into his "office" man cave to watch the season finale of "The Terror".

Red5 watches the clock, as he knows his u/BPD wife will "remind" him of what needs to be done prior to his fav show coming on in just about ten minutes... .and then she looks up from the “communal iPad; and casually remarks, “I see you (Red5) got an email from your Brother”, “have you seen it yet”… and “have you read it yet”;  … she repeats… “did you see it yet?”... .you see, u/BPD wife READS ALL of Red5's emails, and as well his Facebook, ... .Red5 responds, “no I did not”, so u/BPD wife goes on to read the entire email chain from Red5’s Brother from the iPad, .T- minus six minutes to “The Terror”… "whew boy'... .&… Red5 thinks to himself, as he struggles to watch the show, listen to u/BPD wife, and as well manage the remaining time till his fav show comes on in the other room, so Red5 gets up and goes into S31 (special needs)’s room, and tucks him into bed, and says his night night prayer with him, and all the while; u/BPD wife is still reading the email(s)… aloud  !

Red5 returns to the living room, and then as he passes by… He notes the time on the big clock again, T-minus three minutes’ till “The Terror”…

She, u/BPD wife goes on to "inform" Red5 that he has “-several-“ notifications in his Facebook feed that some of his "friends" have "liked" several of his posts today... .insert another "whew boy'... .& ".

Red5 continues to watch that sweeping big hand on that clock… T-minus two minutes’ till “The Terror”… and as Red5 struggles with the big hand on the clock, and the seemingly never ending “speed bumps” between himself, and his big screen TV in his “office” man cave… u/BPD wife continues in her need for “explanation” as to who is interacting with him on the Facebook feed…

Then u/BPD wife says, "who his Ghost Rider XXX" (or whoever it was)... .Red5 says; “it is a closed group from one of my old squadrons when I was in the service”, “we share stuff, airplane tail numbers & pics and… war stories so forth and so on”... .then Red5 starts to tell u/BPD wife about what he had posted, but caught himself, and stopped before he even began... .as Red5 remembered a line from Pete’s first post on this thread;

PeteWitsend wrote:
2) I have to police myself and self-censor, lest I trigger her.  Stories or memories I would like to share or discuss get buried because I don't know how she'll react to them.


So... .Red5 simply replied to her (u/BPD wife), as he watches the big hand sweep to the twelve o’clock position on the big clock in the living room, and he then hears his ships bell clock strike off the /First Watch/;… two bells; in his “office” man cave… (DING DING : HMS EREBUS, and HMS TERROR HAVE ARRIVED!)… and then Red 5 says to his u/BPD wife… "some dude I used to know a long time ago in the Silver Eagle squadron"... .then she responds, while looking over her reading glasses… "Facebook is stupid"... ., and then u/BPD wife tells Red5 that he needs to now go into S31 (special needs) room; and ensure that S31(special needs) is ready for bed, Red5 replies to her, “I’ve already done that, he is almost asleep now”… and she acts as though she heard nothing, and then she continues… and tells Red5 that he needs to read his Brothers email and respond forthwith!… the same email from Red5’s email account that she just read to him... .,

P.S. "The Terror" was good, Tuunbaq ate ALL the bad guys… right up till the last two minutes, when u/BPD wife came into the office, and says him (interrupts the final scene), and says, "do you want me to get this on dvd for you"... .Red5 does love her; u/bod wife, but she drives Red5 CRAZY!…

Hang in there Pete!, .and ya’ll have a great day,

Red5

 

[Skip]

I'm going to throw a wrench into this discussion... .let's kick it around... .

Is this a "support thread" or a "taking sides" in a marital fight thread (triangulation, drama making)?  

Triangulation is easy and it feels validating, but is it making this situation worse (not rhetorical question)?

So lets take the passive aggressive jealousy stuff on her part. A lot of what we are suggesting here are the very tactics that men who are in affairs use. Does it work? Does it just drive that anxiety below the surface where it festers as resentment and shows up in other ways?

Don't get me wrong. I am a private person and I don't want anyone in my "stuff". I dated a child of an alcoholic parent some time back, who like a pwBPD, has inherent trust issues. She started snooping on my devices when I was sleeping. It's hugely violating.

So her snooping is violating my inherent need for privacy. My hiding stuff from her and shutting down the conversation is exacerbating her trust issues (and is inherently suspicious). Where is the win in this?  Isn't this is the classic communication breakdown cascade Gottman decribes that leads to divorce in 88% of cases ( https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down ).

Is there a better way?

Next kicker... .


Antique photo, Chuck Norris

[formflier]

This might be a bit more "tactical" that Skip is interested in... .not sure.

My wife understands that she can look at my stuff... .whenever she wants... .that there is one "hook" that I will have my therapist... or other person there to monitor her looking and make sure she is "view only" (there is history here of her doing things... and not just looking)

My wife wants no part of accountability... .or perhaps another way of saying it... .she "doesn't want to look that bad"...

There is no getting around that the tactics we suggest are used by some for nefarious purposes.  If we just told them to suck it up... .I think it would promote the breakdown Skip suggests. 

Once it's obvious we are open (but with conditions)... .I think most disordered thinking would still "blame" us... .but deep down they understand the cost of looking is too high for them... .so the payoff isn't worth it.

Hope this helps... good question.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

prior to last week, I did allow BPDw to see my phone whenever she wanted.

I was still allowing this, even though she would use the opportunity to attack me over things I considered to be absurd.  examples... .
- texting my mom, aunt, brother, or dad, and not letting her know we talked
- not texting pictures of her to my mom, only our kids ( not intentional on my part)
- not texting "GOOD" pictures of her to my mom
- my mom not responding when I texted pictures of her

You can see how this went.  I'd comply with her demands, only for her to come up with new ones.  Much of this time, I was clueless of the nature of BPD, and was honestly trying to be a good husband and comply with her demands, hoping she'd start to trust me and calm down.

Needless to say, she would not be "making requests not criticisms" here, and any attempts to JADE would quickly lead to a heated conflict.

These incidents also arose randomly, at times everything seemed calm:
- on a family trip she needed to check a map, and had to borrow my phone b/c her phone's "battery was low"
- asked to borrow my phone to take pictures of our kids' easter egg hunt b/c she left her phone in the car
- while I was watching a basketball game, asked to see my phone b/c the cleaning lady needed to text her husband, and "there was a problem with her phone"

in all these cases, once she got on my phone she'd scroll through the message history and just go on the attack.  So at this point, she can't see my phone anymore.  period.  

If this makes me look like a cheater, so be it... .but she's used needing to see my phone as a flimsy pretext to attack me too many times.  

NOTE: In no case has she ever found any reason to suspect I'm unfaithful... .no emails, texts, calls, etc. There aren't any!  there aren't even any "suspicious" things on there.

I'm not engaging in triangulation here; you can all tell me I'm a horrible cheating ass for not letting my wife see my phone and I still won't do it.  I just wanted feedback on setting boundaries over the allegations of infidelity, esp. when made in front of my kids.

FF - requiring a third party be there is sort of a good idea, but I don't really know when we'd have the time to go get a third party to monitor her.  And if we did, she'd accuse me of deleting things by the time the 3rd party looked it over.  it's unworkable for us. 

[formflier]

FF - requiring a third party be there is sort of a good idea, but I don't really know when we'd have the time to go get a third party to monitor her.  And if we did, she'd accuse me of deleting things by the time the 3rd party looked it over.  it's unworkable for us. 

That's the point... although I would want to change your words just a bit.

"The cost is too high for her... ."

Note... you are satisfied... .she is not.

You provide pathway to her satisfaction... .she gets to figure out if the "cost" is worth it.  This is problematic for her... .because it forces a more rational consideration of her concern.  Is seeing the email worth (fill in the blank)?  Especially if you leave the work up to her

And... .she can take the device to a computer expert to do a forensics on it... .again... let her decide the cost.

It's likely worth one clear explanation of your change in boundaries (which I think you have done)... .then you drop it.  She likely won't.

She will see this as you "pulling away", so if you can find other ways to reassure and "build bridges towards her"... that is likely wise.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

That's the point... although I would want to change your words just a bit.

"The cost is too high for her... ."

Note... you are satisfied... .she is not.

You provide pathway to her satisfaction... .she gets to figure out if the "cost" is worth it.  This is problematic for her... .because it forces a more rational consideration of her concern.  Is seeing the email worth (fill in the blank)?  Especially if you leave the work up to her

And... .she can take the device to a computer expert to do a forensics on it... .again... let her decide the cost.

It's likely worth one clear explanation of your change in boundaries (which I think you have done)... .then you drop it.  She likely won't.

She will see this as you "pulling away", so if you can find other ways to reassure and "build bridges towards her"... that is likely wise.

FF

she agreed she won't look at my phone anymore, but made a big show of saying I can't see hers either.

okay, FINE!  (I've never gone through it and picked things to attack her over.) 

[formflier]

she agreed she won't look at my phone anymore, but made a big show of saying I can't see hers either.

okay, FINE!  (I've never gone through it and picked things to attack her over.) 

That's wonderful!  Remember... .watch your words when this comes up.  "respecting each others privacy" is a good phrase to remember.

My wife has passworded things... .taken them off... .usually makes a big show of it.  She will "forget" and leave things in the printer.

The key seems to be not to "bite".

FF

[Skip]

Stay cool, Peter. We're men. We're just exploring this matter beyond your current field of vision.

I want to share one comment that I encourage you to plant in your mind and over the next few weeks wrestle with it a bit... .

If I continue on the current path, I will come home one day and unexpectedly find myself locked out of family and my children's lives.

Clinical research says this. We have many member cases her that exemplify it (PM me and I'll give you links if you want). Many very messy, hardship cases.

Are you OK with this ticking time bomb?

[PeteWitsend]

Stay cool, Peter. We're men. We're just exploring this matter beyond your current field of vision.

I want to share one comment that I encourage you to plant in your mind and over the next few weeks wrestle with it a bit... .

If I continue on the current path, I will come home one day and unexpectedly find myself locked out of family and my children's lives.

Clinical research says this. We have many member cases her that exemplify it (PM me and I'll give you links if you want). Many very messy, hardship cases.

Are you OK with this ticking time bomb?

If she is going to use my refusal to let her pry through my phone, and/or my refusal to engage with her when she gets hostile and yells at me for checking my work email (during the day... .when I'm still "on the clock" no less) to leave me and/or alienate me from my kids... .this was probably going to happen anyways right?

I'm not disengaging from the family or from her.  I'm not withdrawing, just making it clear that this lack of privacy & meddling in my communications with other family and friends has gone too far and affected my other relationships negatively.

And I am not being one-sided here; I never demand to see her phone, go through it and throw a fit over who she is or is not texting enough.  I'm not asking any courtesy I haven't also extended to her. 

Her behavior has been going on 6 years of this for me, and it's been close to 3 years since some people expressed to me the possibility of BPD.  I look back over notes to myself, past posts on the internet, 3 seperate MCs we've seen, and I know I made a good faith effort to meet her more than halfway on this.  It's come at a cost to my personal relationships with my own parents, who at times she's demanded I cut contact with.  it's also affected my career negatively, friendships, and my own health. 

So after all this, I am not really worried about the consequences of fighting for my own mental health and well being.  She'll be unhappy whether we stay together or not, and whether I give in to her demands or not. 

[Skip]

If I continue on the current path, I will come home one day and unexpectedly find myself locked out of family and my children's lives.

... .has been going on 6 years ... //... I am not really worried about the consequences of fighting ... //... if she is going to leave me and/or alienate me from my kids... .this was probably going to happen anyways right?

It is very likely to happen on the current trajectory and you both are contributing to it. In the end, it won't matter who is at fault.

[PeteWitsend]

It is very likely to happen on the current trajectory and you both are contributing to it. In the end, it won't matter who is at fault.

what does "locked out of family" mean?  This is not helpful.

[Skip]

what does "locked out of family" mean?  This is not helpful.

There are many different versions that have been reported here.

Recently a member came home after a business trip to find the family gone. Papers were served in the next few days. Communication was only available via lawyers. Another example includes a sheriff knocking in the door and serving an ex-parte´ order – removing the person from the home and making his return subject to a court order -  there is no due process in an ex parte´ order in most states – in your state an ex parte´order can last 20 days and your return to get your stuff can require supervision.

The "what" can vary, but the point is that when the relationship communication devolves to a low level, it is usually results in extremely high levels of resentment that hardens in time (6 years is a long time) followed by a "less than amicable" dismantling of the marriage. Parental alienation, as you mentioned above, is fairly common.

When conflict has been going on for a long time, we often normalize it in our mind and think it can continue as it has in the past. But the fact is that the conflict is slowly eroding the relationship and creating concrete barriers to its repair - with the wife and the kids.

There is a fundamental choice to be made here; "fight to win" or "seek to resolve."

There are hundreds of members who have faced the jealousy, the phone insecurity, the nail polish smell, the aunt nomenclature dispute, etc. Nothing is new or unusual here.

You are engaging in increasingly defensive behavior, seeking support on who is right and how to prevail.

Stage Three Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment. Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her. ~ John Gottman, Ph.D.[/i] https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

You can continue on the same path - that is your choice. I simply wanted to let you know, from 35,000 ft up and looking down, that you are in a much more significant event than a battle over a phone or nail polish.

Of course putting on nail polish at the kitchen table is inappropriate. You can stop there.

It's also resolvable. And yes, there will always be impulsive moments /extinction bursts that you will need to learn how surf over and not be engaged or triggered by.

Being in a "BPD relationship" takes great strength. More strength than your partner. More strength than men in other relationships. It's not an equal relationship by any means.