Marriage counselor

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My BPDw now wants to see another marriage counselor. This after numerous conversations where I suggested she find one she likes and I'll go. I'd be happy to. She thinks I'm throwing her away like trash and I'm giving up on her.

This would be our 4th one. I don't believe it will help the relationship, but what's the harm? Would it help or hurt my case?

The divorce process has begun. She's been served... .actually I was supposed to be served last Thursday but somehow, it never took place. I waited till after my S18's graduation last Friday and had her served Saturday. Come to find out, our attorneys both filed with the courts the same day. She said she only filed cause it's what I wanted.

[ImWideAwakenow]

My BPDw now wants to see another marriage counselor. This after numerous conversations where I suggested she find one she likes and I'll go. I'd be happy to. She thinks I'm throwing her away like trash and I'm giving up on her.

This would be our 4th one. I don't believe it will help the relationship, but what's the harm? Would it help or hurt my case?

The divorce process has begun. She's been served... .actually I was supposed to be served last Thursday but somehow, it never took place. I waited till after my S18's graduation last Friday and had her served Saturday. Come to find out, our attorneys both filed with the courts the same day. She said she only filed cause it's what I wanted.

[kells76]

Hi ImWideAwakeNow;

Sorry to hear about the place you're in. You must have been through a lot with your BPDw over the years (you have an S18, so I'm guessing you two have been together for a while). I hope you know that whatever story you think is too crazy for anyone to believe, you can talk about here. We'll do our best to help -- we've been in the craziness, too.

Sounds like you have an attorney already. What does s/he think about the idea of you seeing a MC with you BPDw?

If you did go to MC with this new C and your BPDw, what would you ideally want to happen?

Hang in there and keep posting. Let us know how else we can help.

kells76

[livednlearned]

Hi WideAwake,

Are you wondering if an MC will help you with the legal strategy to divorce her?

Meaning, are you wondering if MC will give you a tactical advantage?

My two cents is no, it won't help or harm as far as divorce goes. People get a bit crazy during a divorce. Some non-BPD people can behave like BPD sufferers, and the courts are frankly pretty accustomed to seeing humans acting badly  

I guess I'm wondering what you hope to gain from it? Are you agreeing to go because you feel FOG (fear, obligation, guilt)?

[ImWideAwakenow]

Kells76, I guess I would hope that W would have an awakening. The first MC, LCSW, was the most helpful and that ended when C asked if she could work with W and have sessions for cognitive behavioral therapy. She wanted to help her find truth in her thoughts. Now C is the worst and should loose her license. The last thing MC told me over a year ago was that I need to protect myself.

I saw MC again recently cause of recent events and needed someone desperately to talk to. I asked her if my W possibly had BPD and she said yes, she believes my SO does.

We saw a church pastor and the last time we saw him, he had to raise his voice assertively to get her to stop her actions. W was in a rant and just kept getting louder.

We saw another C while we were seeing the first MC because we knew this could be a long process. We found one that was in our network for insurance reasons. That lasted two session. We came in there hot from previous conversations during the last session. He basically told us we need to separate. That we shouldn't be together.

I'm hoping that after all this, W could see her part in the failure of this marriage.

Yes we've been married 24 years and have 5. My greatest regret was/is having my children exposed to such turmoil at home. I just couldn't walk away from the fights. She wouldn't let me. She would block my way. Use her body to block the door, hold the car door open, use her vehicle to block mine, even going so far as chase me down in her vehicle while I drove off. I have told her we are the worst parents for acting this way in front of our children. W says it's normal to have arguments.  It's been a mess.

Unbelievable how uncomfortable I still feel. I feel like I'm going to get caught being in this board and I'll have deal with whatever misery she decides to rain on me. W is in the next room and I feel like I'm being unfaithful and she's about to walk in.

[Panda39]

I'm going to be a little bit blunt... .You've been to multiple people for help with your marriage and there has been no change in her behavior, you have been married  24 years and there has been no change in her behavior.  What do you think the odds are that her behavior will change this time? Realistically do you expect an awakening? MC is to work on your marriage. What she needs to dig into is therapy for herself and do the work to on herself, that is not the function of marriage counseling.

Are you undecided about going through with a divorce? Because if that is the case then trying MC again might make more sense, but the underlying problem still remains... .BPD.

To me, if you go to MC while following through with your divorce you are sending mixed messages.

Strategically will MC be helpful to you with your case, I don't think another round would matter, you've already tried multiple times.

Panda39

[ImWideAwakenow]

Panda, I get it. I know it won't improve our marriage and it's not what I aim for.

I feel hopeless for her. I don't know why I would think that if another T would come to the same conclusion and she hears it again that she could benefit from some sort of therapy, that she'd actually want to go through with it.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, you can't fix her.  Your can't.  And letting her do these end runs around the divorce process, which is what this 4th MC attempt probably is, will distract and delay and resolve little if anything.

She filed.  You filed.  Frankly, it's clear you both are ready to unwind the marriage.  MC is like trying to plug a European gadget into a USA socket, wrong purpose or goal.  Or plugging a TV/stereo system into a half amp USB charger, too little to work.

One of the hardest things for us to do is stop feeling sorry for the other and stop enabling the dysfunction to continue.  And there is real risk that feeling sorry for her could be self-sabotaging behavior for you.  You're both adults.  Yes, your spouse has huge issues but court will protect her interests, probably more than you can or should.  Better to investigate what Boundaries would reduce the conflict and discord.  Sadly, when we are being nice, the other sees this as us weakening our boundaries.

[kells76]

I would hope that W would have an awakening.

That's not a bad thing to want for someone. It's loving to want them to see the truth about their lives. I think you can both want the best for your BPDw and accept that she is the only one who can change herself. (I'm guessing that the outcome of the "awakening" that you would want most would be for BPDw to change her actions)

I don't know why I would think that if another T would come to the same conclusion and she hears it again that she could benefit from some sort of therapy, that she'd actually want to go through with it.

Again, it's not bad to hope that someone we've been close to will change for the better. That's kind. At the same time, like ForeverDad said,

One of the hardest things for us to do is stop feeling sorry for the other and stop enabling the dysfunction to continue.

Speaking of awakenings brought about by counselors... .

The last thing MC told me over a year ago was that I need to protect myself.

I wonder if this might be an eye-opening thing that a counselor told you. I wonder if the kindest thing you could do for yourself (and, maybe in a roundabout way, your BPDw) would be to take care of yourself first (and the kids next). I'm betting taking care of yourself first, in front of your W, probably feels "wrong". Is that close?

Maybe what I'm gently wondering is -- what if you could have an awakening brought about by counseling, too? If you did, what would you do about it?

Let me know if this doesn't make sense. Just some thoughts that I'm hoping will help you keep thinking about this situation and maybe seeing it from a new angle.

[Panda39]

Panda, I get it. I know it won't improve our marriage and it's not what I aim for.

I feel hopeless for her. I don't know why I would think that if another T would come to the same conclusion and she hears it again that she could benefit from some sort of therapy, that she'd actually want to go through with it.

I hear how much you care for her and how much you wish for her, but you can't control her recovery, her feelings, her behaviors.  I know you want to very much but the choice to see a therapist and to truly work on her issues is hers. She can see a Therapist anytime she wants or feels she needs it, but does not need to be MC which is pulling you back in... .could her invitation to  MC be FOG?

Panda39

[ImWideAwakenow]

She is the mother of my children and I'm worried as to what they may be exposed to after I leave. I addressed this with my T and she said "if she does these things with them, you'll end up with the children!" And what heappens to her I asked, "You'll have to let her be crazy on her own!"

She brought up the MC as an attempt to change my mind. I asked what it would accomplish and how it would change anything? She didn't really have an answer.

I have to give it to those that are trying to make it work with the skills I've read here. I'm reading Stop Walking On Eggshells now.

I tried to be logical and tried to pursuade her to sell a property that we bought for another one of her adventurous ideas. RV living. This was home base. Another dream that if I didn't support, I didn't love her.

Anyway, we have an opportunity to make a small profit since I've listed it FSBO after she gave the go ahead to do it. I have someone interested and they keep going up on there offer without my even trying. All I've said is that I have a hard time convincing my W to let it go.

Now she's not wanting to go through with it because I want a divorce. We will have to let the attorneys handle it. In the mean time, I worry about letting the offer pass. Should I let the buyer know what the real reason is, we're going through a divorce?  

[Panda39]

My SO was also very worried about what would happen to his ex when he left his marriage and his mother told him his ex was is like a cat and will land on her feet and guess what?  She did.  She has always had a roof over her head, clothes on her back, money in her pocket and food in her mouth.  Has everything always been perfect for her no but that's life, and yes there are natural consequences for our behaviors. 

Your wife is an adult and will need to manage her own life, and if you are divorcing you need to start thinking about shifting your focus to your kids and yourself and let her take care of herself.  I know that's hard when you love her, and she is her own worst enemy. It seems to me that you've been in a "caretaker" role regarding her for a long time and it will take time to move to a new role.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

The feeling of being dependent on a caretaker can trigger resentment then anger. Sometimes we are so triggering to our spouses -- we represent the backdrop against which the film of their emotions are projected -- that we become the last people who can actually help them.

It's why a BPD spouse may function just fine within a social circle but then come home and unload on their significant other.

We come to represent people who promise to make things better, and yet we fail and fail, and can no longer be trusted, even though the hope that we will succeed never seems to die, for both sides.

That, and over time we succumb to an unhealthy merger fantasy, and we ourselves are left with terribly weakened boundaries.

Poor boundaries in a relationship feels confusing to someone who does not have a solid sense of self. Without boundaries, she becomes furious that this part of her (you) is not in sync with how she wants it (you) to be, and so engages in a fruitless attempt to try and control you, not recognizing that the source of her pain is her, whatever that nebulous meaning of self might have.

[BeagleGirl]

I'm chiming in with a few things I've learned (or am trying to learn) that may help you:

1.  MC implies that you are both equally responsible for fixing the marriage which, for BPD or abusive spouse, translates to YOU are responsible for fixing the marriage.  If an honest assessment of your situation is that your spouse's behaviors are doing the significant majority of the damage to the marriage, it's unlikely that MC will be effective until those behaviors are addressed consistently by your spouse.  Obviously, you have your own patterns that can trigger/enable those unhealthy behaviors in your spouse.  Those can be addressed in parallel with individual counseling for both of you.

2.  Using intimidation to get your way is abuse.  She may not be hitting you.  She may not be cursing at you and belittling you.  BUT if she is blocking you from leaving a conversation or otherwise using fear tactics to control your behavior THAT'S A FORM OF ABUSE.  My dBPDstbxh started blocking my exit and chasing me in a car, etc.  Then he would say "I don't see how you can't see that I do those things because I love you so much".  It took a while for me to see his behavior as abusive.  I still am very cautious about putting that label on it, except with my counselor.  Understanding that his behavior was abusive opened up a lot of avenues of healing for me, but the actual label can be VERY inflammatory.

3.  It is very rare for the spouse of a pwBPD to end up with an "equitable" deal at the end of divorce, much less leave their pwBPD at a disadvantage.  We tend to continue in our care-taking role right through the negotiations.  In retrospect, I was being protective of dBPDstbxh when I offered up 70% of our assets and took on full financial responsibility for our children.  I could have "bought my freedom" a lot more cheaply and he wasn't even happy with the amazing deal I offered up.  I've now seen a LOT of people on these boards doing the same type of thing.  When people encourage you to take care of yourself first, you need to first recognize that you probably don't even know what that looks like.  Having your own counselor and a good lawyer will only get you part of the way there.  You will have to actually listen to them and let them protect your interests.

4.  Stepping away from your marriage is not "giving up".  I left my marriage for a therapeutic separation that then became a legal separation and will be converted to a divorce any day now.  It has taken everything in me to not run back and fix things.  It has been agonizing to allow my husband to choose not to do what is necessary to rebuild our marriage.  I definitely am looking forward to the finality that the divorce decree will bring BUT I HAVE NEVER GIVEN UP.  I have let go of the unreasonable hope that I could fix things, but I still hold onto a reasonable hope that, if my husband were to request to delay the divorce or start dating again after the divorce is final AND SHOW CLEAR INDICATION OF CHANGE, I could open my heart back up to him.  I'm not going to put my life on hold and ignore open doors to healthy relationships once the divorce is final, but knowing that I'm not giving up on dBPDstbxh has made it easier to let go of him and our marriage.  I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but I hope it does.

I've strayed pretty far from your original question, but I hope something has resonated with you.

BeagleGirl

[ImWideAwakenow]

Thank you all. It's all very insightful and helpful. I do recognize that I have been her caretaker. I also recognize that I've been abused and manipulated. There's nothing in me at this point to want to reconcile or try. I don't have that emotional bond any longer. I'm not trying to negotiate with myself. No more maybe if I do this... .then this might happen. Or, I know it's rough but at least I'm with my kids. No more cheaper to keep her than to divorce her.

For a long time I've felt trap. I was in a FOG. Fear was the biggest hurdle. Fear that I will not see my children regularly. Fear that I won't afford to live after she takes me for all I'm worth. Fear that she will be with someone else and maybe it was all me that ruined the relationship.

Now my views have changed. The kids will be better off not having to be exposed to the chaos we create. I would be happier living under a bridge than under her thumb. I hope she is happy with what ever she decides. She deserves it. I don't know if she's ever known contentment or happiness.

I've spent half the afternoon being blamed for not doing enough for her that I should've tried harder. Same conversation that goes in circles. Her trying to convince me to try harder and not go through with the divorce... .me asking what does she expect to happen and what will change. I tell her that I can not make her happy and it's not my job to. Her trying to manipulate me and make me jealous by saying she is leaving and not telling where she might go. I respond by saying I can't control or worry about what you do. Round and round we go. I finally had to get off the crazy-go-round.

[Turkish]

If you're the one who is initiating the divorce then why is she telling you to try harder? You should be telling her!

[ImWideAwakenow]

If you're the one who is initiating the divorce then why is she telling you to try harder? You should be telling her!

We both happened to file for divorce at the same time. She claims she only went through with it because it's what I wanted. That I forced her because I begged for it. I did beg... ., many times we argued and she would threaten to leave me, I told her to please do it. She's been threatening to leave me very early in our marriage.

I can remember her taking off her wedding ring when it got heated and throwing it at me. One day I had had enough of the ring being thrown at me, so I took the ring and threw it in the woods. Dumb move. I rented a metal detector the next day but no luck.

I can't tell her to try harder or get professional help. I've tried that. Each time it's not worked. I'm guessing it could be because of rule number 2 from 20 Rules For Understanding BPD.

2. If I do something I feel is wrong, I am unworthy of living. Therefore, admitting I am wrong — or that I did something to hurt someone — feels just like committing suicide. I don’t want to die, so I can’t acknowledge that I am wrong. Even to the judges inside me.