Should I be pleased or sad that I can understand how this happened?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A murder case in the UK was finalised yesterday with the couple being found guilty as a ' a deux' (two people sharing the same delusion). The link below is the most comprehensive media report I have found so far.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/24/couple-found-guilty-killing-french-nanny-obsession-ex-boyzone/

Reading the story, especially looking at the longer term aspects of the relationship I could understand how and why each of the characters were behaving as they were. Things that many people would find so bizarre to even comprehend... .and rightly so. I can almost rationalise their behaviours.

I remember at university, myself and uBPDw lived with 5 other people. These men and women were regular young adults doing silly things on occasions, being thoughtless, messy and generally well hmmmm students. W (GF at the time) would be slighted by one or the other housemates and be instantly enraged by them, painting them black, all the usual things. As I said, these were ordinary people doing ordinary student things and generally just having a laugh. You were either for or against EnablerW, being against was painful so I would often find myself painting the other house mates black even though I'm not sure I felt there was any reason personally to dislike them. Hating the other housemates almost bought us closer as a couple and we had some element of connection. I shared her delusion about the other house mates as a means of creating a common enemy. Would I have killed any of them, placed them on a bonfire whilst casually cooking a bbq... .hell no, but I did find myself doing her dirty work for her demanding them clean up, quieten down etc etc. It took a lot to snap out of sharing her delusion, it was the path of least resistance for me and I gained the connection I wanted and avoided the emotional pain I didn't.

I'm still worried that I have even the faintest comprehension of how such a murder could happen... .and even how one of the murderers could announce "I've done nothing wrong!" as she wept in the dock!

[Enabler]

A murder case in the UK was finalised yesterday with the couple being found guilty as a ' a deux' (two people sharing the same delusion). The link below is the most comprehensive media report I have found so far.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/24/couple-found-guilty-killing-french-nanny-obsession-ex-boyzone/

Reading the story, especially looking at the longer term aspects of the relationship I could understand how and why each of the characters were behaving as they were. Things that many people would find so bizarre to even comprehend... .and rightly so. I can almost rationalise their behaviours.

I remember at university, myself and uBPDw lived with 5 other people. These men and women were regular young adults doing silly things on occasions, being thoughtless, messy and generally well hmmmm students. W (GF at the time) would be slighted by one or the other housemates and be instantly enraged by them, painting them black, all the usual things. As I said, these were ordinary people doing ordinary student things and generally just having a laugh. You were either for or against EnablerW, being against was painful so I would often find myself painting the other house mates black even though I'm not sure I felt there was any reason personally to dislike them. Hating the other housemates almost bought us closer as a couple and we had some element of connection. I shared her delusion about the other house mates as a means of creating a common enemy. Would I have killed any of them, placed them on a bonfire whilst casually cooking a bbq... .hell no, but I did find myself doing her dirty work for her demanding them clean up, quieten down etc etc. It took a lot to snap out of sharing her delusion, it was the path of least resistance for me and I gained the connection I wanted and avoided the emotional pain I didn't.

I'm still worried that I have even the faintest comprehension of how such a murder could happen... .and even how one of the murderers could announce "I've done nothing wrong!" as she wept in the dock!

[Notwendy]

I don't know how you should feel but also I think you can be relieved that understanding this doesn't mean you would go this far. BPD/co-dependency is on a spectrum and clearly these two are at an uncommon extreme.

Yet the pattern can apply to any BPD/co-dependent relationship. The person who is co-dependent gives up his/her own values in some way in hopes to keep the peace/avoid conflict. There can also be isolation from family and friends and an adoption of the pwBPD point of view which may not be in accordance with their partner's values.

How much we ( speaking as the co-dependent) buy into the viewpoint of the pwBPD can vary. I think a common one is a false accusation. If they think we hurt their feelings or something about us, then it must be true- so we feel hurt or JADE. If they think they have to have something that we can not afford, well we give it to them despite our better judgment, or we say yes to something when we mean no. Or they tell us our friends and family are monsters and we know it isn't true but we stop contact. None of these things are illegal or as heinous as murder, but they do cause harm to our self esteem and self image when we diminish our values and can be hurtful to the people who love us.

The "bond" you felt with your W against your classmates was classic drama triangle. They were the persecutors, W was victim and you joined in as Rescuer. The Rescuer-Victim bond is a very strong one. Some of us may not even know it is dysfunctional. I grew up with this, so I didn't at first.

But I think everyone has limits at some point- and that limit can depend on the person's own moral core. People may have poor boundaries - but I think most people have a bottom line- things they would not do no matter what.

[Enabler]

Yes it’s a pretty extreme example of what can happen in this dynamic. I can empathise that elements of my reality were warped to keep the peace and keep the “love” fix coming... .who knows but this guy maybe wanted to blame the boyzone star for seducing his wife. No doubt she couldn’t entertain it being her choice, so he couldn’t either!

[Notwendy]

I gave up things that were meaningful to me in order to keep the peace in my marriage. The suspension of reality was promoted in my FOO with my BPD mother. I witnessed behavior that I knew was wrong- drunken rages, mother trashing the house and the next day parents pretending it never happened or that it was normal "all couples argue sometimes " like that? I recall the shock I felt when I realized my mother could flat out lie and then pretend it didn't happen. This was in contrast to the moral code I was raised with. So odd to have a standard Sunday school lesson upbringing about right and wrong and then see something different and have to pretend I didn't. But I could hold on to my own moral code.

I know that my father had to suspend his own reality but neither of my parents are criminals and something like what this couple did would not happen. Although nons can have poor boundaries I think most people have a bottom line they won't cross no matter what. I also think pw BPD can push right up to the boundary but they know where the boundary is. It is also said we pair with people who match us in some ways. Thankfully I think most people would be freaked out at her suggestion and say"I'm outta here". If he stuck around and did it he had to be as amoral and disordered as she was.

We've seen many examples of nons on this board accepting their SOS point of view to keep the peace but I'm willing to bet this would be too far for a majority of people no matter what their issues in the relationship are.

[Cromwell]

Judge Nicholas Hilliard QC said that even though there was evidence about their mental state, in particular Kouider, who was held at a medium secure mental hospital, none of it was a defence for murder.

Ive said time and time again when there are excuses made for the negative behaviour, as if having the condition is a justification for it. I dont even know if it was accepted as mitigation in this case, let alone a defence.

You could kill someone in a psychotic rage, yet this situation doesnt fit that at all. She was methodically tortured and a rational attempt was made to hide evidence.

Unfortunatly, I could relate to many aspects of this report, the most disturbing is how I could relate over the length of time I spent as starting to share with her the irrational thoughts and tried to relate to;

"Beautiful but deadly, Sabrina Kouider was the ultimate femme fatale.

The petite Frenchwoman was the star of her own fantasy film noir - and she cast Sophie Lionnet as the enemy."

Ive said in one of my first topics about my belief that my ex had been building her own narrative about our relationship and what my role was, characterised by her, typecast by her. As if she never had the ability to have ever truly known the person I was or accept the relationship to become self-determined.

It is a lot about control issues, somewhere from this ive came to a realisation that its not about breaking away from the r/s as much as it is breaking away but on the terms that fit into her intended narrative. At the moment ive ruined the script that gave comfort.

"When she went off with other men, he proved his unswerving loyalty and waited in the wings for her return, the court heard."

Yipes! triggered. :D

[Enabler]

That last paragraph sent a shiver up my spine as well... .

Especially when I nodded nicely as my W told me a pack of lies on her way out to see her OM last night. My only comfort is I don’t believe the lies now.

[Notwendy]

That is tough Enabler-

I think it starts by the partner suspending his/her own values or view of reality and adopting the one of the pwBPD. How far it can go is the difference. I think people have a bottom line, but I also think that line can move in time. Scary to think it would go as far as in this couple.
, Tolerating a person seeing someone else is one of those values. Some people are OK with an open relationship and some are not. It's painful to be tolerating a partner seeing someone else if it isn't what you want.

I know we tend to give some leeway to a person with a disorder or disability, but I think pwBPD are still held to the same moral and legal codes established in a society. They may have impulsive tendencies but the law, and a boundary are still just that. Ultimately, if we know what relationship boundaries we want, and they aren't there, a pwBPD is still accountable for their behavior, and we are accountable for what we tolerate.

Maybe this article is something reminding you that, while you wouldn't do something as terrible as murder - you are tolerating behavior that you know isn't something you tolerate- basically you are negating yourself. That's hurtful but also hard to face. I think many of us here have been in this place. What we do about it is up to each individual. It can be painful to be aware, so people tend to suspend the feelings and accept the altered reality- about themselves in order to maintain the peace.

[Cromwell]

That last paragraph sent a shiver up my spine as well... .

Especially when I nodded nicely as my W told me a pack of lies on her way out to see her OM last night. My only comfort is I don’t believe the lies now.

Thats a really interesting way to put it Enabler.

You know, the more I was with her what troubled me the most was not being able to seperate fact from fiction, entering into psychosis essentially, a lie could be something so trivial up to covering up something serious. Yet amongst that would be the truth at times.

So it got to the point where even if she admitted cheating on me, I wouldnt know wether to even believe that, and therefore would find some comfort in "never knowing".

I realise I never answered the actual title of this thread, and I think I can empathise with you here. It is sad in a sense that reading a news report as tragic as this, and actually feeling able to empathy with all concerned based on the experience being so similar. I know if I would have read that article 4 years ago, I would have just skipped through it, forgot about the BPD reference by the next day and just labelled it as "god, there are some real nut cases out there".

I dont like that reading it now, I can even find some sort of sympathy for a murderer. The majority of people out there will loathe this person but I have some sort of feeling of pity of what sort of events in her life brought upon her condition and cumulated to get her to go that far. Its why I stopped reading newspapers during my healing, ive noticed more a suspicion of being an empath to a degree and sometimes even reading stuff here can leave me drained, and I never knew why.

I think you should probably feel sad about it rather than pleased, I think if I had the chance, id rather have not learned or experienced what I had gone through.

[Enabler]

Likewise I don't like that I can find a degree of empathy with people who commit these kind of crimes, however it has answered the lingering question of "how do people do these things?". It's rare to find someone capable of murder, but finding someone actually capable of enjoying murder is even rarer. This couple would have you believe that this murder was an act of self defense, a necessity albeit an accident as part of their interrogation, and to an extent I believe they think that.

I totally get what you mean about the lies Cromwell. I am currently in a difficult position of not wanting a divorce however realising that the relationship can never go back to any sense of normality since I am no acutely aware that my W is utterly untrustworthy. She lies to everyone about virtually everything. More importantly she lies to herself. Living in a state of ignorance I was able to paper over the dishonesty, I can't live in ignorance anymore, which begs the question of how would/could I ever trust her again enough to sustain any level of intimate relationship if that is what she suddenly desired to have. If I choose to revert to a state of ignorance and even embraced her fantasy world in a crude dysfunctional way of gaining connection with her (in the way her flying monkeys and OM have)... .well now I'm in a Folie a deux. I worry that now I have chosen to not point out the lies and call the BS card I am on a slippery slope to enabling the bad behaviour... .I feel like a parent who turns a blind eye to the smell of weed in a kids room, knowing full well their kid is smoking out the window because if they mention it the behaviour goes further underground where they could place themselves in greater danger.

Ironically one of my biggest regrets from the past 2 years has been pointing out dysfunctional behaviour since it has only led to escalating the behaviour and her learning how to cover her tracks more efficiently.   

[Notwendy]

My parents' relationship reminded me of the term follie a deux and like you described, Enabler - I observed my father oscillate between moments of clarity- begin to resist the situation- and then, it appeared he would be lulled back into  going along with her way of thinking. It seemed to be the only way to coexist with some level of (perhaps momentary) calm with my BPD mother.

I think our whole family did this to some extent. Coexistence required us to maintain this illusion that my BPD mother is perfectly fine, a wonderful mother. By my early teens this just flew in the face of the behaviors I observed and yet, it seemed our only choice was to pretend they were not happening, and so we did.

Later on, I tried to continue this harmony with them and my own family and she seemed to embrace the role of grandmother. Then, I began to catch her in bold face lies, which she didn't admit to and eventually realized she is untrustworthy and seems to lie without conscience. This was one of several shifts in my image of her and our relationship. Whatever she did say to me, I didn't know what to believe- whether it was true or not. I also felt that the cost of maintaining family harmony with my parents was to go along with her, but several things happened that I felt I just could not do this.

It's a tough decision. There are personal costs/benefits to going along with the situation and also to challenging it. My situation was different from my father's- I wasn't married to her, nor did I live with her. He remained in her world, ( he is deceased now) but I think he was aware that he was joining her in her disordered thinking. She has her entourage of flying monkeys as well and I don't know if they are unaware or they are an are willing to join her.

Maybe the good part of your realizations Enabler is that - rather than be unaware of your wife's behaviors, you are aware and so can make the choice to ignore them or not and you are aware of enabling behaviors. It's not possible to control what she says or does, but this part, you can have control over. You may not know what to do next, but being aware of your choices is a first step.

[Enabler]

The good thing about the tools is that you can validate the valid and avoid invalidating the invalid. Thus far it has bought around some calm and certainly meant that I am not owning her behaviours and thought processes that I do not agree with with. I do not have to adopt her disordered thinking to avoid her displeasure, I just have to appear neutral. It certainly helps avoid the situation where I feel the all of nothing approach of "if you can't beat them join them!".

I think it's very very common for people to at least in part adopt the "yes, dear" approach, or even the parent who enables by their silence in the background. I can think of many people in my social circles who come out with bizarre rhetoric that could only have come from their deluded partners.   

[Notwendy]

The validation tools are great but in addition I think it is important to have our own viewpoint validated. We need a strong sense of self to resist the accusations and definitions of who we are. Growing up I had a poor sense of self and learned to let what others think of me define me like my parents did. Taking that, along with the co-dependency/enabling tendencies that were a requirement in my family caused issues in my marriage.

The boundary - what is me and what is not me needs to be firm. One of the best mental exercises a T taught me was to examine an accusation or definition of myself in accordance with the idea of something absurd like saying I was a pink elephant. If someone called me a pink elephant, I wouldn't second guess myself- "maybe they have a point ,maybe I am a pink elephant" and I would not JADE- try to explain why I am not a pink elephant. I would think " that's strange" because I am quite certain I am not one. I need to also be that certain when accused of being or doing something I am not or didn't do.

It took practice but I got to the point where I could hear these things and they would not emotionally effect me. I could still validate the valid and not the invalid, but to be honest there were times it just slipped out " that's nuts" or even made me giggle nervously at the absurdity of it. Maybe not the best thing to do in a relationship but affirmation that I knew- what was me, and what is not me.

But I have lost that sense in a relationship and needed some kind of reality check to not slip into a reality about myself as defined by someone's disordered thinking. It came from counseling ,12 step codependency groups and working in the outside world with non disordered people. There is a tendency to become isolated in a relationship with a disordered person and listening to mostly them, I think has an effect over time. Self care and contact with the outside world is important.