At what point is enough enough?

[pearlsw]

Oh geez. Now I hear him having a big emotionally intense "discussion" with his S13 over the phone. Sigh.

[mama-wolf]

Unlike what a lot of people here experience he is very, very sorry. He is so sorry he can’t handle the shame and embarrassment and emotional levels of how bad he feels. The “sorrys” won’t be enough in the long run though. What a shame. What a shame watching love die…and for what?

I’m with you here, pearl... .my stbx is always so sorry for everything. And I think she genuinely wants to apologize, but it becomes empty when it’s not accompanied by actual changes in behavior.  It ends up being more like sorry, but this is they way I am. Sorry, but can’t you still accept the way I treat you? Sorry, but why won’t you change to be the way I need you to be?

I know that when I tell her this week that I need to separate, it will devastate her and the sorrys will come in a flood. Not sure if the anger and vilifying will come before or after, or both... .but the apologies will be everywhere. And it’s definitely not enough.

mw

[Cat Familiar]

pearl and mama-wolf,
I too heard a lot of sorrys and what appeared to be genuine remorse from my physically and verbally abusive ex. At the time, I believed he had actually seen things from my POV and had empathy.

But like all things borderline, it was transitory and he soon went back to casual infidelity, verbal and physical violence and financial irresponsibility. Then, if I confronted him about those behaviors, somehow he made the argument that it was all my fault.

Then, rinse and repeat.

Much        It’s so tempting to want to believe them when they appear so remorseful.

[pearlsw]

Sorry, still getting this all down so I don't forget... .

He started drinking, then wanted to talk, then got emotionally overwhelmed and wanted to be alone. He is saying his emotional pain started during a relationship he had in his early 20’s A married female friend of his initiated a relationship with him, and he fell hard for her, but she later dumped him because she was just doing it as “revenge” against her husband. I think. He said that wrecked him. I was previously aware of this, but not in this new light he was describing it.

Oh, I remember now. He called me to the room he was in, to start this talk, by saying “I don’t know how to love you.” This was sort of repeat of something I said about his behavior.

Sigh. So…we went over some of his history and some of ours. He said he spent the whole day processing why he’s been “out of his mind” since Friday. He said he was trying to be so extreme to make me hate him so that I would leave him. But he doesn’t want me to leave him because he loves me so much.

We discussed how for years he’s been lying to me that he is going with other people. I told him I never knew one way or the other, because he lies so much about it,  and so convincingly, but either option was not good. He will try to convince me he is with someone else, then just as adamantly tell me he wouldn’t do such a thing. He is really like two people. And this is how he broke reality for me. I was FORCED to be one foot in and one foot out the entire time. I have never felt married. Oh and he asked me today about marrying me….sigh.

One interesting part of the short talk that I appreciated was how he talked about how being in another country has a massive impact on you, changes all about you, all your principles and character are affected. That surprised me. He said this happened to him when he met this woman in another country and he could see how this happened to me too now being in a foreign country. When he was in that other country he was with very non-conformist people and it was like all society’s rules had fallen away. I told him how I felt the same about being around him, and with the impact of his ex and kids on us….sigh. All that I had known before…I could just barely hang on at times in their swirl of lies and corruption and intensity…it can be too much. Thank goodness I am strong, but everyone has their limits.

I had this thought the other day: I would never be a cannibal, I like to think. But wait until the plane crashes and I’m stuck in the snow…Now what? What would I do to survive? I thought I knew. I was so solid and strong about myself and my principles…but watching him year after year get away with so much…to the person doing the most to support him…and who loved him more than anyone…stood by him, fought for him, protected him…to have him constantly toss me out like garbage…when I am so vulnerable…Living in a foreign land and so alone, but for him. And this is how he treated me. This.

They don’t put this stuff in the travel guidebooks.

I talked to him about how his behaviors at times have been like psychological torment (all the breakups) and even torture for me for years and he could not hear it and we had to stop. He agreed, but had to stop. He did this and after five years I broke. Of course I loved someone else….and ruined a lifetime of who I had worked so hard to turn myself into…

It’s just sad because he loved me and I loved him too once….and it can’t ever be…He feels too hurt by me and he knows that he was the architect of this mess….so sad. Such a waste this terrible, terrible cycle of pain. So sad.

~pearl.

[pearlsw]

pearl and mama-wolf,
I too heard a lot of sorrys and what appeared to be genuine remorse from my physically and verbally abusive ex. At the time, I believed he had actually seen things from my POV and had empathy.

But like all things borderline, it was transitory and he soon went back to casual infidelity, verbal and physical violence and financial irresponsibility. Then, if I confronted him about those behaviors, somehow he made the argument that it was all my fault.

Then, rinse and repeat.

Much        It’s so tempting to want to believe them when they appear so remorseful.

Thanks for your eyes on this Cat! I will keep that in mind!

lots of gratitude, pearl.

[pearlsw]

I’m with you here, pearl... .my stbx is always so sorry for everything. And I think she genuinely wants to apologize, but it becomes empty when it’s not accompanied by actual changes in behavior.  It ends up being more like sorry, but this is they way I am. Sorry, but can’t you still accept the way I treat you? Sorry, but why won’t you change to be the way I need you to be?

I know that when I tell her this week that I need to separate, it will devastate her and the sorrys will come in a flood. Not sure if the anger and vilifying will come before or after, or both... .but the apologies will be everywhere. And it’s definitely not enough.

mw

hi mama-wolf!

ah, yes your break up is coming soon! i am watching it with interest so i can learn from it! i am having to wait too... .but i think it is coming... .

i wish it didn't have to happen, but someone has to put a stop to this. i have to be the adult for us both.

thanks so much! ~pearl.

[pearlsw]

how long will you be away?    when do you have to return?   Why do you have to return?  can you return with some one long enough to remove your possessions and leave again?  can you fabricate a story of when I was in XYZ,   ABC happened so I will need to stay an extra week?


blocking some one from leaving,  trying to control some one movements, is a form of abuse.   I know it's in the list here of abusive actions.    it's a way an abuser gains power and control.    interfering with your ability to work is economic abuse.

of course he does.   it's a sad situation.    I liked what Harley Quinn said.

it is very hard to see when you are in the middle of it.    and only after did I come to understand the damage I incurred for myself.

'ducks

'ducks, you are always a queen of insights! i am so glad you are always here supporting folks, me included!

i was thinking about this today. i think sometimes because i worked with DV victims, the women and kids on the really extreme end of things, i forget that there are a lot of other folks caught up in these kinds of dramas as well. i helped women who'd been shot or stabbed, made homeless, were in terrible predicaments. in a way i've been too fearless.

he’s pretty squirrely, but i’ve never worried about my life. i can defend myself, but i don’t like being with a hyper-vigilant person who keeps upping the ante. it is really draining and i've lost a lot. i wish i could make this work, if there just hadn't been/weren’t break up threats…i cannot help but feel a lot of compassion for his suffering. it is palpable. he just oozes pain.

i will feel guilty, as if i’ve abandoned him, if we part someday…but i’ve done it before…sometimes all that is left to do is save yourself.

warmly, pearl.

[pearlsw]

he says it is painful to be with me and painful not to be with me... .so he wants to be with me…he can’t figure out why i would want to be with him. sigh.

[Harley Quinn]

Pearl, just out of interest, have you ever completed the MOSAIC threat assessment?  I'm wondering if, now that he is tearing doors off hinges that changes your result?  My concern is that he seems to have escalated from breakup threats.  Has he damaged any property before?  Will you let us know your score? 

Love and light x

[Notwendy]

Pearl, this is difficult but I think the answer to what point is enough is when the person has had enough of the pain. I also think that "enough" is different for each person.

Both decisions to leave or stay are difficult and costly. Leaving will incur some material loss- of possessions, finances. Leaving is likely to be emotional and dramatic. Although I understand wanting to leave in a kind, stable way, these are not stable relationships. There is also a personal cost to staying. I think you will know what to do if the cost of staying becomes greater to you than the cost of leaving.

I see you struggling with the pros and cons of either on this board and it is good that you can express them and work through them with others so that you can come to your conclusion about what to do in your own time.

I want to reinforce Harley Quinn's concern about this situation potentially escalating and the MOSAIC test is a good way to objectively see what is going on.

I know that you know abuse is cyclic. www.envisioncounsellingcentre.com/innerpage/resources/partner-abuse/cycle-of-abuse/
The remorse stage is part of it. I think that is the most difficult- when you see what looks like genuine remorse and pain the other person is feeling. However, is it truly pain for how you are feeling or pain for him as he fears abandonment and an attempt to get back the status quo? This is the part where we are most likely to forget and hope but with abuse the wheel turns back.

I know he is hurting but the cycle works to soothe his feelings. He can let the bad ones out on you, then try to manage his feelings of abandonment by being remorseful. It is clear you care about him and his feelings. But the answer to when is enough I think is through your feelings. Take care of yourself and stay safe.

[Lady Itone]

Wow Pearlsw that was scary to read, I can only imagine what you must be feeling.

You're smarter than this man. You're more emotionally healthy than this man. You WILL get where you need to be.

[Red5]

Hello Pearlsw,

Wow… please please please be careful,

It’s just a short step from “doors” to other things much worse.

Please be alert, and be careful, If you feel unsafe, and that things are escalating, please get out, and get away.

Keep us posted Pearlsw!

Red5

[pearlsw]

Wow Pearlsw that was scary to read, I can only imagine what you must be feeling.

You're smarter than this man. You're more emotionally healthy than this man. You WILL get where you need to be.

Hi Lady Itone,

Thank you so much! I really appreciate having this reinforced. You are right! I sometimes feel he has gotten the better of me, but really, I always manage. I am clear headed for the most part. I won't let him destroy me.

warmly, pearl.

[pearlsw]

Hello Pearlsw,

Wow … please please please be careful,

It’s just a short step from “doors” to other things much worse.

Please be alert, and be careful, …. If you feel unsafe, and that things are escalating, please get out, and get away.

Keep us posted Pearlsw!

Red5

Hi buddy!

Nice to hear from you! I am fine now. It was pretty shocking, but I am never in fear really. I know that might seem odd, but I grew up with some pretty tough brothers and no man scares me. He might shock me, or throw me off, but I doubt he would hurt me, and if he tried I'd fight back with all I have. He can't regulate his emotions, and we likely won't stay together for life, but I am safe. I am glad I wrote this out though because it shocks me too when I read it! It is very sobering!

I appreciate the support very, very much!

Thanks all! Very, very much!

take care, pearl

[Wicker Man]

Pearlsw

Have you looked into seeing if your countries embassy or consulate has any services for expats living abroad? 

I had seen some of your thoughtful posts on other parts of the board and read you thread today.

Best,


Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hi Wickerman,

I am so happy that you came by to say hi over here! I've been noticing your posts and they really impress me and help me a lot. After I'm back from a trip I'm heading out on tomorrow I wanted to do a post that is inspired by what I'm learning over on the Learning board from ya'll!

It is very isolating. Everything is complicated and costly here, but I'm okay. I tried once to go to an Embassy, but they have limited hours and I could not get there in time and keep it private as I wanted to at the time. I have one contact who helped me get some free legal advice and offered even more. I've also been dragged to lawyers many times and learned a lot that way as well!

It's looking I will have to guide us, if I at all possibly can, towards a break up... .It's not what I wanted, but... .he is too unstable. I don't feel unsafe per se, just stressed out and unhappy. We had agreed to at least try until October... .I was willing to honor this, he shreds his promises... .

Thanks again!

wishing you the best, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

I am so happy that you came by to say hi over here! I've been noticing your posts and they really impress me and help me a lot.

What you are going through has helped me in staying firm in the belief I did the right thing in ending my relationship.  It would have landed me in the PRC.  I would have been incredibly reliant on her help for a lot of things and if the wheels had flown off I would have been in a lot of trouble. 

She pushed me to the point of a minor breakdown on the 11th hour -so I suppose I am lucky(?)... .  Strange world when I am thankful for a breakdown. 

I am glad for you that you possess the inner strength and character to perceiver in such a challenging circumstance. 

I hope no matter what you decide to do in your relationship it is right and good for you.


Best,

Wicker Man

[Dignity&Strength]

Just tossing out a general question... .(can't write more now. in a crisis)

At what point do you call this behavior abuse and just decide to call the relationship?

~pearl.

Hi pearl,
I am also in the middle of supper crisis here, but want d to chime in. Your question, I ask myself everyday. I re evaluate regularly. Something that helps me focus is to define my values and goals. I have had to postpone my rights as a human being to be treated decently in the short term, in order to achieve some long term goals. The goals game about through sheer logistics, which is a nightmare, and prevention. Prevention of negative outcomes from any stakeholder in the situation. This is where my learning curve started. I think of it like a checkers or chess game... .I started with what I needed or wanted to do, and began “research” on the outcomes if I did that. I did a lot of investigating. Mainly by seeing attorneys, which was no small feat. That required skimming grocery money, saving it, figuring out who to see and when. But each time I went, I was sick to my stomach for days. But I learned a lot. Things like, how to get proof that what I’m saying is correct. That’s huge. The other part was finding a support system. My local women’s shelter has weekly meetings that I’m allowed to attend.

Your question, about where the line is. Only you heart knows it. And if it’s like mine, it won’t want to believe you. And then there’s the timing of it all, and the logistics. Geez those have me absolutely stuck. But I see windows is opportunity in the future, and I have looked into options. I’m still not sure I can click my red slippers and send myself home to my parents to safety, due to the laws here. A friend of mine had an international family lawyer, based out of Atlanta. I learned a lot by listening to her story. Land mines and pitfalls, those are the little gems I learned a lot from her.

Here’s 2 resources that have helped me think clearly and correctly;
1) Duluth power and control wheel
2) “A cry for justice, how domestic abuse hides in your church”, by Jeff Wood and Anna Crippen. It’s on Amazon.

I’m sure you know how much good self care helps us survive this;
Hot baths, Epsom salts with lavender, sleep, and for me, just keeping up with the laundry and staying freshly showered.

Best wishes, and you’re not alone in this. Many women are in this boat too, myself included. Isaiah 43: when you pass through the water, I will be with you, and the waves, they will not overcome you, Do not Fear.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Here’s the link to the Duluth power and control wheel. It really gives specifics of what abuse is.
https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wheels/

[pearlsw]

Hi Dig,

So nice of you to drop by! I really appreciate you offering support, especially as you are also in a tough situation. So kind of you!

It was weird, yesterday my SO and I were talking over a bit of what he's done recently. His reactions can be quite odd. We do joke a lot, but I was a bit surprised at how... .how much he just seems like a child lately. He was laughing at himself over the door thing. He said he just had that thought and did it. It was all very fast. And he is trying to get me a job at his company and the name he made up for his imaginary girlfriend was taken from a co-worker, someone I would work with while there if I do... .geez.

I tend to be "lucky" in that things he does are usually one-offs, you know, sort of one and done. He will do one "crazy" thing and then never do it again. But then, when his emotions are high, he will do another extreme thing. I am not physically intimidated by him but still, I don't want to argue with anyone. At all.

I've had relationships with very little friction, mostly peace, and certainly real friendship. I don't see the point in battling or having a lot of drama. Geez, in my first relationship in my late teens we did a much better job of communicating and solving problems and that was 30 years ago! I want progression in life, not regression.

Thanks for sending that info. I have been glancing at it on and off for years... .I remember early on wanting to contemplate that as part of my whole process of figuring out what I'd gotten myself into with him. I had visited him for extended periods of time before finally living together, but his behaviors have always been so different... .some of it is cultural, some of it leftovers from his past relationship, just a confusing mix... .and add in that we are in a foreign country and it's just been layers of pressure and confusion at times... .

But anyway, the extreme things are just far enough apart that it makes it hard for me at times to just paint him with a broad brush as an abuser. Has he done abusive things? Yes, he certainly has. It is really incredible how hard it can be to wrap your mind around this stuff. Your mind, I think, naturally seeks for "normalcy", or mine does, and you find yourself very suddenly believing all is fine again, and it mostly is... .until it isn't.

He actually took off last night for a bit to go and support his brother whose wife was being physically and verbally abusive to him. I asked him if he stood by his claim the other day that I was "abusive" of him, and he said no, that is not true.  He said he was telling his brother that he genuinely loves me, and had never loved anyone before me, and he was already in his 50s when we met so that was big for him... .He said he could tell his brother did not love his wife. He was also telling me how much he loved me and would never break with me... .but his words have lost all meaning. I don't want to hear these words anymore. It is so sad. It just means nothing anymore.  And round and round it goes... .

with gratitude, pearl.

[WantToBeFree]

I ask myself this all the time.  I ask my husband as well.  In the dozen or so times we've had "the" divorce talk, I ask him if he will ever just get to a place where he loves me, doesn't want to lose me, but sees that I am in misery and agrees to call it quits so we can move forward and be the best co-parents we can be.  He says he doesn't believe in "giving up", which is apparently what he sees me as doing.  I guess it's easy to want to stay married to the non-BPD spouse. 

As others have said, I feel like enough is enough, when the fear of leaving is less frightening than the idea of staying.  I've been there once, for me it was literally like a light switch flipped in me, and leaving felt so right.  Unfortunately I am struggling to get back to that acceptance again.

Of my 11 years with him, it took me at least 7 years to call his behavior abuse.  Thanks to tv, what happened in our marriage didn't look like what I thought domestic violence looked like.  On TV, abusive men always beat the ____ out of their wives, leaving visible bruises, kicking, punching, etc.  My husband has never done that... while not ok whatsoever, his abuse has always been much more threatening than productive if that makes any sense.  He'd grab me roughly, he'd push me into a wall but I could always feel that he was still holding back some.  I could sense the incredible level of anger in him but could tell he was still attempting to not hurt me.  There have only been a couple times out of dozens where I was truly scared of him.  I was usually just angry, and when I was scared, often it was because I was afraid he would grab me in a way that would make my back spasm, or I was scared that he would push me and think I would right myself, but I'd fall and hurt my back (I have a lot of back issues with slipped discs so it's always a worry of mine).  I knew none of it was ok, but it took me a long time to realize it was actually abuse.  It also started out subtle (him being mad and punching the wall near me) so it was hard to realize when it changed from "red flag behavior" to full-blown abuse.

So I think enough is enough when you can finally recognize and call something what it is.  When I couldn't accept that I was being abused, there is no way I could have deemed it to be enough.  Even now with full recognition, it's still hard to know when it's enough.

So sorry you're struggling with this and other things!

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Pearl,
I hear you say you’re strong enough, you’re not intimidated, you’ve had experience dealing with other people’s domestic violence situations, yet you have not commented about taking the MOSAIC inventory.

I, too, thought I was strong enough to deal with my ex’s violent outbursts and crazy behavior, but it came at a great personal cost, one I didn’t fully acknowledge until I was out of the relationship.

I hope you do that inventory and report back to us. Yes, you are strong, but isn’t it time to use that strength for yourself, rather than him?


   
Cat

[pearlsw]

Hi Cat,

Oh, it's just because I've been preparing for my trip and now I'm taking it! I will review it again and report back. I can't concentrate so well!

Actually, funny thing, on the flight here I was thinking about one of your replies on this thread, the first one... .I haven't formulated a concise response yet, but I was reflecting and noticing the wide range of thoughts about my life I was having on the long flight and thinking about which of my thoughts... .well, what thoughts that I keep hearing in my head over and over and which of them are true for me, or are just thoughts that my mind generates out of someplace... .for a range of reasons I am only partially in touch with.

I always used to feel like I knew myself well and felt very solid about who I was... .I think the toll of living in multiple cultures and existing across various languages... .well, it has it downsides along with its upsides... .Maybe I am not quite who I thought I was... .or maybe I have gradually changed... .or who knows what... .All I know is that it is really hard to get quiet time to think. I think not having myself mirrored back to myself through people that either look like me or speak like me, ever, and my SO's cultural eclipsing of me... .has just been a bit much at times. But I am also very independent and self-assured... .and have a lot of faith in myself, or did... .

Others have their ideas and I respect them, and I may even change my own, I may already be changing them, but my default thoughts about myself are that... .I am not afraid. I have days where I don't like things, and it is overwhelming and too much, but... .all in all... .I know I can stand up for myself and fight for myself in any way I have to... .the weird part for me is so late in life coming to such an odd set of circumstances... .

I am glad I wrote out some sort of live blogs here, if you will, of my last crises here so I can review them and reconsider them on the less stressful days. Sometimes I think just having done endurance sports, all that mental training, just makes me keep pushing and pushing past obstacles most would not want to endure. I also think my mind just, still, can't grasp that another human would behave like this... .I thought I met a logic guy, he's not a logic guy. hahahaaha.

Sometimes I feel like it's a battle of wills, in a way, for... .well, I am just naturally determined to right this ship. But I also know me very well, and I refuse to suffer forever. I have my reasons for giving it precisely the amount of time I am giving it. I want to give it a certain amount of time, I'd prefer it could work out, but if not I will not be heartbroken. I will be sad, but not heartbroken, not after so many break up threats. He cured me of fearing a life alone or another break up - I've seen that there is far, far worse that can happen to you than being alone in life or being broken up with or breaking with someone.

with much gratitude, pearl.

[pearlsw]

WW shared a good link on another post that did me some good to look at.

Relationship Spectrum It's something good to read as a general base.

In the end, enough   I believe is when it is for self.

Okay. Got a chance to take a look and this just now and wanted to share my thoughts... .

I would say... .Well, my partner has extreme black and white thinking. I am either on a pedestal, or I am in the garbage. That's pretty much it. I am not saying I like being on a pedestal, not in this way at least, but... .

I would say by and large it vacillates between healthy and unhealthy. Only when he is dysregulating does it veer into abuse. Unlike a lot of people here I hear a lot of really, really nice things, even after 7.5 years and some really tough times... .Again, one could argue that is a cycle, but a lot of it feels genuine. For years I just thought he was someone who bottles up anger and then explodes... .then I thought, okay, these are mood swings. Then I thought this is disorder and I need help. I had never known anyone who had such extreme mood swings so it was hard for me to recognize. I had never dealt with any kind of abusive treatment and I refuse to be afraid of men (after someone tried to kidnap me as a kid) so I just... .kept pushing forward.

Plus, given his legal battles with his ex (having to divorce her I don't know how many times in various countries at great expense and fighting to get to see his kids in three different countries and ultimately losing, although she had internationally abducted them... .it seemed reasonable, for a certain amount of time, that he was simply not okay. Also, his entire family seemed to vouch for his version of their marriage and I read lengthy court statements about all of their issues, although he undoubtedly contributed to his relationship problems, we all do, it seemed like he was the one getting the short end of the stick and that she had some mental health issues that outshined his... .I have asked him too if he broke up with her as much as he has with me... .nope. He didn't dare do that to her. They had kids. We don't. So... .).

Ultimately, if I push back hard enough he tends to back down. What I just don't like, bottom line, is any kind of strife. I just don't. He is very difficult, but I... .I grew up in a home where my parents never raised their voices to each other. I'm not saying they had a perfect marriage, they did not, but there was no abuse in my childhood home. I was raised by a family of really strong women who basically don't take any cr*p off of anyone. They are tiny but really fierce.

I just want a more peaceful existence. No drama. Less stress. No built-in anxiety. Just an ability to focus on my own emotional health, goals and dreams, and shared dreams if I am with someone. I want life to be better, with him, alone, or with someone else again someday if I ever feel up for it. I really wanted to offer him all I could, help him, us, prepare for retirement. Make a great life. Just live life to its fullest. But I have had to deal with a lot of blowback from his previous marriage.

We were talking the other day. If I knew then what I knew now I would have strongly encouraged him to get counseling right away after the kids were abducted and gotten him to take medication... .and maybe not ever moved in with him... .But I can't rewrite the past, I had just hoped, for a really long time, that we could come together and overcome all of this... .If he can't make the journey to recovery with me... .then I am willing to go on alone... .I am just hoping to overcome the damage this has done to my life and go, if need be, before it gets any worse.  In certain states he really respects and looks up to my opinions... .when he is out of his mind his mind he does all it can to generate insults so he can hurt me and make me feel his pain. I don't want to carry that much extra pain. I have had enough pain and unhappiness in life. I deserve to live out my days with some peace of mind.

[juju2]

Am so sorry you are going thru this Pearl.

The thing that helps me is my support groups, go to two different al anon meetings each week.
Al anon is all over the world.  If you need help w co dependency, if he also has trouble w drinking, although my pwBPD gave up drinking 19 yrs ago.

Hang in there!