When is is appropriate to engage or just let it go

[formflier]

She's apparently mad about something... .something else.

I set up laundry as I regularly do... .I walked from the room briefly... .to look for stray things.  I came back and she was reorganizing the bins... .

I asked if she was looking for something and she said they were all wrong.  

She walked out muttering.  

Now she is on a reorganization "rant"... .saying things are all wrong... .how can we know where things are etc etc.

I asked if we could talk about this before we reorganized and she asked if I asked her first... .and I replied yes... which I did.  She claims I didn't.

I said I was available to talk, but wasn't going to debate reality of who said what.

I'm tired... my back hurts... .she is stomping around the house... .I really can't think of any decent way to address this other than let the organization rant burn itself out.

Sigh...

FF

[pearlsw]

Hi formflier,

Sorry to hear you are having a hard day!

All I know, and I am trying to do this too in the midst of my current crisis, is just not fan the flames.

Is this time for SET? (I am not good at this, but willing to practice. Do you use the tools?)

Maybe:

Sympathy: I care how you feel.

Empathy: It must be frustrating for you.

Truth: This is what I can do... .

I dunno!

Or do you want to just duck out a bit?

warmly, pearl.

[formflier]

Likely going to duck out here in a bit to do some swimming... .care for my back a bit.

She has tossed out the gauntlet several times to fight... .pretty standard stuff.  Near as I can figure I've disengaged and offered to talk/find solutions

Sigh

FF

[zachira]

It is so hard to have your emotional system hijacked by your wife's sudden rant and irrational anger. You have gotten upset as well, and now are doing what you can to calm yourself down. You feel you have done all you can to provide safety and support for your wife. It can be helpful to remember that you are responsible for your feelings, as she is for hers. I think you are doing the right thing by disengaging and going swimming. I admire how you keep on working on being less affected by your wife's behavior, keeping your cool, and trying to support your wife when you can, yet recognizing there are times when you really can't help her and it is better to leave her alone until she calms down. Keep us posted and let us know how we can help! Also, if you have any tips on what works best or does not work, please share as many of us who post on this site are/have been in similar challenging situations with a BPD partner.

[formflier]

So... .before I could leave... .

She comes in ranting from the other room about weeds and they need to be sprayed.

Me:  I'm on the phone... just a minute.

her:  (really loud BPD rant)  should I ask (named some kids) to do it... .more ranting about how horrible this is.

Me:  I'm on the phone... .I'll be able to talk to you about it after my phone call.

her:  kind of a whimper rant... .I don't actually know what she said.


door slam and out she went... .

I realize it is unlikely this is about me... .

It's still very exhausting to be around.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It's amazing the lengths they'll go to create chaos. What I try and remember is that, like a volcano, they're just trying to release some internal combustion. How exhausting it must be to live in their own reality! And how exhausting it is for us to experience the acting out of their inner turmoil!

Happy swimming! I'm going to do this later today. I got our pool heated up to 88! 

[formflier]

So... .swimming went well.

She is chilling on the couch when I get back.  I stretch in same room with her and while stretching... .I'm working on a Sams club order.  We had talked about putting one in earlier.

So... I ask her a few questions about what she would like and she goes on "light attack".  Asking if we have enough of this or that... .to which I say I don't know... but will look soon.

She is "digging" and asking why I'm putting in an order while I don't know what we need.  I calmly replied that I was ordering what we both agreed we needed... .while I was stretching... and we could look a the other items later.

There is some huffing and puffing on her part and she stomps off to kitchen... .shouts out some status of this or that... .but... she is really grumpy about it.

"Who bought all these french fries?" (I didn't answer... .we had jointed decided to buy a big case... supposedly they are taking up all the room... .yet when I suggest we make some fried... .right... .)

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

Apparently... .someone has posted something online about our house... .my wife is upset at me over it.

She accused me of "attacking" her while I was at home (I guess verbally)... .I really don't know.  Basically BPDish ranting from the other room.

Bunch of randoms subjects seemed to be touched... .but she "had" to do a bunch of cleaning today... .I can't explain it.

Text log in next post... again... not sure if I should have engaged more... or less.

I'm at a fast food restaurant now... .trying to to accomplish some homework... and posting a bit here.

FF

[formflier]

texts below... .some cam in a bit disjointed... .who knows.

Me: I will be trying to focus on homework for a while 4:29 PM

Me: I will be available later if you would like to talk 4:29 PM

ff wife: Good. I don't need to talk. 4:38 PM

Me: ok... .whenever you feel like it... .I'm open. It seems there is something on your mind... .I'm not pushing to talk now... just know I'm open whenever you feel ready 4:40 PM

ff wife: 2/2 me. I did all that when you were working. Plus nurse babies, chase toddlers and or be pregnant. 4:40 PM

ff wife: 1/2 I apologise for raising my voice... .Delaing with the frustration of working 60-70 hours a week and using my days off to clean the house sometimes gets to4:40 PM

Me: I hope we can find time to talk through some solutions... .again... whenever you feel up to it 4:41 PM

ff wife: 1/3 What is really bothering me is seeing our house posted and many people saying how glad they are that they do not live by us. I parked that rusty truck wi4:44 PM

ff wife: 3/3 . 4:44 PM


ff wife: 2/3 th it's back end to the garage and the cover on. So you repark it rear end facing the neighbors full of junk with no tailgate so it can't even be covered 4:44 PM

ff wife: When I 'feel up to it'? As if there is something wrong with me? 4:44 PM

ff wife: I am angry with you. There is nothing wrong with me. 4:45 PM

Me: ? I am suggesting we have important conversations when we both feel we are at our best... .I certainly don't suggest there is something wrong with you 4:46 PM

Me: Oh... .well... .that makes sense then. Thanks for letting me know that. I'd like to listen to what you are angry about, when we have time to talk in person 4:46 PM

Me: It befuddled me to be told I was angry... .when I was actually quite sad and grieving due to matters outside our relationship... .this kinda makes sense now. 4:47 PM

Me: I can't promise I can help with the anger, but I'd like to listen and understand 4:48 PM
ff wife: 1/2 I don't want to talk about it again... .I have asked you to move that truck and I have moved it myself. You just find a reason to display it full of junk 4:48 PM

ff wife: 2/2 for the neighborhood to have to look at every day. 4:48 PM

ff wife: Stating you were told you were angry? Downloading these emails for your record? 4:49 PM

Me: I don't understand this... .and think the wisest thing is to wait and talk privately, when we have time to understand each other 4:49 PM

ff wife: I am tires of living under a microscope with a guy who records me to 'prove' whatever he is trying to prove. 4:50 PM

Me: anger is tough to work through... .I'll help as best I can 4:51 PM

ff wife: 1/2 Let me help you understand then... .Our home was posted online... .Everyone was saying how thankful they are to not be our neighbors. I don't blame them. I 4:51 PM

ff wife: 2/2 would not have to want to look at the junk you keep on dosppkay either 4:51 PM

ff wife: Display 4:51 PM

ff wife: You are so hypocritical 4:51 PM

ff wife: 1/2 You smirk and leave that nasty truck in the drive full if junkyard junk and then act as if I have N anger problem... .I do NOT have N agner problem, I am 4:53 PM

ff wife: 2/2 angry with you. You have humiliated our family and I was forced to defend us so our children would not have to see it. 4:53 PM

Me: again... I don't understand what you are trying to tell me... .I think it best we talk further in person. And I don't appreciate the "hypocritical" statement, not sure how that helps our relationship or creates a solution 4:53 PM

ff wife: Big difference baing angry with a person at one point and having an anger problem. 4:54 PM

Me: I don't understand what this is about... .I can't imagine further texting will create a solution 4:54 PM

ff wife: There isnt a solution unless you are willing to be honest. 4:54 PM

ff wife: Or further talking 4:55 PM
Me: STOP SUGGESTING I AM A LIAR... .this is emotionally abusive... .STOP IT! 4:55 PM

ff wife: 2/3 e about how you organized the laundry room before you did it. I simply stated that you had not spoken to me about it. I have not referred to you as a lia5:01 PM

ff wife: 3/3 r, and I would not do so. I am sorry you are upset. I am available to talk about it when you feel up to it. 5:01 PM

ff wife: 1/3 It is not emotional abuse to call out someone when they say something happened that did not actually happen. You said earlier today that you spoke with m 5:01 PM


Me: We recall events differently ff wife, there is a big difference in that and "honesty" as you put in this text log 5:04 PM

Me: If you are interested in my emotions regarding this... .I'll consider sharing when we have time. The way you have described is different that what I feel 5:05 PM

ff wife: Then we should no longer text. By saying willing to be honest I did not intend you to take that as liar. Let's not text. 5:06 PM

Me: A workable solution for me 5:06 PM

[formflier]

So... .do I go home and ask to see what has been posted about our house?

I'm totally speculating here...


I'll say this... .a home with 8 children and 2 adults creates a stir.  People either seem to love us... .or hate us... or "actively ignore us". 

As I in wave and they make a big show of turning their head the other way.

Several have complained to the "board" (community board) about us or our property... .and every time something has come up through the board... .we've made a change or addressed whatever the complaint was. 

I also learned that there was a dispute with a neighbor over a fence... .about this property from a couple owners ago.

And that the neighbor that "lost" complains a lot to the board... and the board member told me they don't expect him to ever be happy.

Again... I'm totally speculating here... .but there are people around us that would post stuff about us... .

Sigh.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Yuck. I'll go back to the title of this thread. You could see early on that she was dysregulating. You could have stopped your end of it when she said she didn't need to talk at 4:38.

Then the following comment of nursing babies and chasing toddlers and being pregnant could tell you that this had gone south quickly.

So sign off quickly. Gotta get back to homework. I'll be home at ____ o'clock.

[GaGrl]

Yuck. I'll go back to the title of this thread. You could see early on that she was dysregulating. You could have stopped your end of it when she said she didn't need to talk at 4:38.

Then the following comment of nursing babies and chasing toddlers and being pregnant could tell you that this had gone south quickly.

So sign off quickly. Gotta get back to homework. I'll be home at ____ o'clock.

I agree, FF... .you got hooked.

[formflier]

Yeah... .I can see that... .this sucks.

Sucky emotional weekend as it is.  I really don't have room in my life for this crazy at the moment... .

Very frustrating...


FF

[juju2]

peace be with you.  Blessed are you.  You help others, that means you will endure stress.    You go out of your way, you assist, you help, that makes you a target of negative forces.


I think pwBPD are targets for being negative.

It always astounded me how much negativity he has/had

[Fian]

It sounds like she has a complaint about a truck that is an eyesore.  Is there a compromise that can be reached there?

[Fian]

It seems like your wife tries to avoid talking with you in person.  Why is that?  Is there another way that she would be more comfortable communicating?  Maybe write a letter (as opposed to texting)?

[formflier]

I am guessing the complaint is about our plow/farm truck.  We actually have  a fuel pump we are going to try and put in over the next few days... .and then if it is running better/right... will be up for sale/auction.

I suppose this would be in the "long running dispute" or BPD category.

She will want it gone... but at decent price (therefore it will need to start and run reliably).  Not worth sending it to mechanic... .but it is worth (IMO... and sometimes hers) us doing some work on it... .which we have.

Most recently new timing chain... which "fixed" lots of rough running (it's a 1989 truck... so... .it will never run perfect).  Anyway... the fuel pressure is low and some of the remaining glitches could be tied to that... .so...

Anyway... .it's all a matter of time.  When given the choice if she wanted me and kids to focus on plow truck or do (fill in blank)... she has chosen fill in blank.

Fill in blank has now apparently come home to roost... apparently she is aware of neighbors being grumpy on social media... perhaps about our house

Who knows... .

Basically... .the truck comes up and there is lots of inconsistency in "what she wants" (no shock there)

FF

[formflier]

It seems like your wife tries to avoid talking with you in person.  Why is that?  Is there another way that she would be more comfortable communicating?  Maybe write a letter (as opposed to texting)?

I'm going to guess because it doesn't turn out the way she wants.

Me reading tea leaves...

My wife wants to say something to me and she want "it" to happen or be fixed.

No follow up questions, no clarification, no agreements... no acknowledgement or questioning about her wanting 100% the opposite yesterday and swearing she will never change her mind... .

And here is the thing... .I'm ok with changing your mind.  I generally would like that to be acknowledged.  I leave conversations where my character is assaulted because I wasn't smart enough to know that she actually wanted something else and the "fact" that I didn't know that means (fill in blank)

FF

[formflier]

But... .back around to the central point.  Many on here and many... I would say ALL of our counselors have recommended she change her communication style, especially with me.

A clear, private, non-distracted conversation with me about one subject is something that she appears to actively avoid (I agree with you on that).

She is much more comfortable with TV on, phone in hand, dog barking, kid asking her something and her yelling at me or someone else about what she wants to communicate... .in a very public (inside family) setting... .with 5-6 subjects on the table... ranging from my harem to my failure to purchase the proper syrup dispenser that we "talked about" (a recent example)

So... .we have "done" her version for a while and perhaps she feels better... .and then I go do what I want, because I literally haven't a clue of what she actually wants.

Perhaps that's the point... .she doesn't either and wants to hide that.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Sounds like someone who wants to engage with you in some way, however, is afraid of the sense of intimacy that comes with a calm, 1-1 conversation in person... .maybe.

Or that she knows by setting a time aside to talk... .she is only going to get a limited FF... .a FF who will only entertain pragmatic talk.  She wanted to release emotions.  She never gets to do that when you agree to an appointment to talk.

Yet... .agree with the idea that... .she said she didn’t need to talk... .yet the texting continued between you both.  You participated with that.  

Not sure why.

Cause after that moment she was being abusive.  You tried to ignore that fact and she felt ignored... .etc.  downhill.

Seems like maybe you could have validated her statement... .that she did not want to talk.  (Even tho she kept texting.)

Well, when you texted and let me know you have nothing to talk about... .I’m going to believe you dear.  So I’m going to —-(fill in blank: engage in some activity and make myself unavailable as I do not even need to reply to this in anyway)—-  Then ... .take your eyes away from the screen.

[zachira]

Maybe this is of interest or not so helpful. I just learned that the area of the woman's brain dedicated to emotional memories is much larger than a man's. This translates into women having an excellent memory for every single argument and how they felt during the argument, whereas men oftentimes don't remember arguments and can't understand how she came up with the list. As a woman, I wish my emotional memory bank was more like a man's; it would make life easier.

[babyducks]

I am going to go in a different direction for a minute.   here are a couple of thoughts on how this unfolded.   I agree with Gagrl,   you got sucked in.     

Me: I will be trying to focus on homework for a while 4:29 PM

Me: I will be available later, around X oclock, if you would like to talk 4:29 PM

avoid those abandonment fears early.   tell her when you will be available.

ff wife: Good. I don't need to talk. 4:38 PM

Me: ok... .whenever you feel like it... .I'm open. It seems there is something on your mind... .I'm not pushing to talk now... just know I'm open whenever you feel ready 4:40 PM

less is more.    she gave you a clue of how she is feeling.   she doesn't need to talk.    Okay.    let it go.

ff wife: 1/2 I apologise for raising my voice... .Delaing with the frustration of working 60-70 hours a week and using my days off to clean the house sometimes gets to4:40 PM

ff wife: 2/2 me. I did all that when you were working. Plus nurse babies, chase toddlers and or be pregnant. 4:40 PM

okay so she changes her mind rapidly and now does need to talk.   yeah happens when you can't regulate your mood.

Me: I hope we can find time to talk through some solutions... .again... whenever you feel up to it 4:41 PM

OOoofff FF,   you blew by her apology, which invalidated it, bypassed her expression of frustration, went back to something she already expressed an opinion on.    And BTW, she is talking to you.  As best she can.   Yes her emotions are running high but she is exploring options in a rudimentary way.   She is not being abusive or name calling here.    she is clearly frustrated and with a pwBPD feelings come first.  you aren't going to get to solutions until you deal with the emotion.

Ducks suggested reply: thanks FFW, as soon as I get this homework done I will be around,  should really be at X o’clock.

ff wife: 1/3 What is really bothering me is seeing our house posted and many people saying how glad they are that they do not live by us. I parked that rusty truck wi4:44 PM

ff wife: 2/3 th it's back end to the garage and the cover on. So you repark it rear end facing the neighbors full of junk with no tailgate so it can't even be covered 4:44 PM


ff wife: 3/3 . 4:44 PM

Rut Roh - a shame related issue.   and some one has shame based disorder?   

ff wife: When I 'feel up to it'? As if there is something wrong with me? 4:44 PM

ff wife: I am angry with you. There is nothing wrong with me. 4:45 PM

Me: ? I am suggesting we have important conversations when we both feel we are at our best... .I certainly don't suggest there is something wrong with you 4:46 PM


don't invalidate,  don't patronize, don't placate.   

Me: Oh... .well... .that makes sense then. Thanks for letting me know that. I'd like to will listen to what you are angry about, when we have time to talk in person 4:46 PM

Me: It befuddled me to be told I was angry... .when I was actually quite sad and grieving due to matters outside our relationship... .this kinda makes sense now. 4:47 PM

her emotional temperature is rising,  your emotional temperature is rising.   I would suggest you save this for later.

Me: I can't promise I can help with the anger, but I'd like to listen and understand 4:48 PM

ff wife: 1/2 I don't want to talk about it again... .I have asked you to move that truck and I have moved it myself. You just find a reason to display it full of junk 4:48 PM

ff wife: 2/2 for the neighborhood to have to look at every day. 4:48 PM

right here I don't see her as doing too badly.  she's upset, she's angry, she's frustrated she has intense emotions.

ff wife: Stating you were told you were angry? Downloading these emails for your record? 4:49 PM

and now she's saturated and kitchen sinking.  time to button down and gently back away with out inflicting further damage.

Me: I don't understand this... .and think the wisest thing is to wait and talk privately, when we have time to understand each other 4:49 PM

ff wife: I am tires of living under a microscope with a guy who records me to 'prove' whatever he is trying to prove. 4:50 PM

Me: anger is tough to work through... .I'll help as best I can 4:51 PM

I’d suggest slowing down here.  At 4:49PM you wanted to stop the conversation and at 4:51 you are continuing it… that’s confusing even to me.   And there is no tone of voice in text,   this appears patronizing

ff wife: 1/2 Let me help you understand then... .Our home was posted online... .Everyone was saying how thankful they are to not be our neighbors. I don't blame them. I 4:51 PM

ff wife: 2/2 would not have to want to look at the junk you keep on dosppkay either 4:51 PM

ff wife: Display 4:51 PM


temperature declining.    a real issue.   one she's conflicted about.

ff wife: You are so hypocritical 4:51 PM

and temperature rising again for both of you. just that quickly.   time to end because nothing productive is going to happen after this point.

this is how I read the tea leaves.

'ducks

[formflier]

Had a quick phone call with my P this morning.

The quick version.  I stopped the van on the way to church.  Told her I wouldn't continue in the van with her talking that way.  Got out and walked home.

P's advice. 

perhaps two sentences and then hush.

1.  We can talk about that after church, I'm not able to talk about that now.
2.  FFw I'm trying to get myself in the mindset to worship.

stay silent... .let herself make herself a fool in front of kids... .even if that means I stay silent while she assaults my character.

Of course... if it goes on for days and weeks we may have to suggest, but it's her way of me "planning" to not get "sucked in".  Especially when I'm otherwise emotionally compromised... .such as memorial day weekend... .when I'm interested in grieving.

Oh... .and I'll be going to the next service and worshiping alone.

FF

[formflier]

So... .the details.

There is an intestinal part of my disabilities that is quite lovely.  I sometimes will "wretch" (read dry heave) several times when there is a flareup (among other lovely things that happen... .the remnants of tropical parasitic infections are lovely... ._)

Anyway... that happened this morning and my wife came in asking me if I threw up.  I briefly explained it was part of disability and I was working through it.

She loudly announced "Oh... so you are NOT sick... and stomped from the room"

I didn't engage.

morning was otherwise relatively pleasant.

Until

We get in the van... .my wife starts questioning 15 year old about if he mowed the lawn... why does it look that way... .lawn needs to be cut... etc etc.

I made the error after 15 year said he mowed... which he did... and she started telling him to cut more (just so you know... .all this has been calmly discussed before... .grow grass high to thicken it and keep out weeds)

I "asked" or "suggested" that we talk later... .

here is where she hooked me

"If you are going to be nasty like this... there is no reason to talk later... "

ff  "oh babe... no intention to be nasty... let's chat later about grass"

"you are talking to me like a robot and being nasty... ."

ff  "ffw... .please stop criticizing and saying things against my character in front of the kids... "


she repeats something about robotics and the "need" to say these things

I said I won't worship with you today.  I stopped the van got out and walked home

FF

[braveSun]

Hello FF     

Sorry, this is a cross post.

You did add important details as I was typing. I want to bring this up first.

perhaps two sentences and then hush.

1.  We can talk about that after church, I'm not able to talk about that now.
2.  FFw I'm trying to get myself in the mindset to worship.

stay silent... .let herself make herself a fool in front of kids... .even if that means I stay silent while she assaults my character.

Especially when I'm otherwise emotionally compromised... .such as memorial day weekend... .when I'm interested in grieving.

Oh... .and I'll be going to the next service and worshiping alone

I like your conclusion. I see that you are tired and need some Peace & Quiet for yourself. The need to assert our authentic feelings must be respected.

I see that in trying to manage my expectations of my spouse, I also do the 'downplaying of my needs' type of thing, than get caught in FOG somewhere in there. That's one part of the problem, but it doesn't change the character attacking part, which I seemingly cannot avoid nor control. 

Exactly that. How you are saying it. When I feel more vulnerable. 

Peace to you FF     

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh, really loved babyducks break down.
(It helped me to see my own bias here.  Thanks for kindness for not blasting me off the board... .kinda now see why we have organized topics, oops, a wee confused)

[formflier]

Yes... .babyducks breakdown is very helpful to me too.

I'm heading out the to next church service (they have 3) in just a few minutes.

FF

[babyducks]

Sounds as if the "lets talk later" is no longer a effective tool but has instead become a trigger.

Maybe try saying the same thing in different language?

After church let's look at the settings on the lawn mower.

[formflier]

After church let's look at the settings on the lawn mower.

For clarity... .the lawn does look bad.  The lawn looks bad, in my opinion because while I was not here last fall my wife demanded the yard to be "scalped".  Really short.

Well... .I won't bore people with explanations of how to bring back the lawn... .but I believe we are on the right track to get more back towards a healthy lawn.

If she want's to be in charge of the lawn... I'm fine with that, although she has specifically said she doesn't want that.

I briefly spoke to her last night about the "lawn plan" for this coming week... .and she kinda mumbled "ok".

basically now that weeds are beaten back and grass is starting to fill in... .we can address bare spots with seeds, watering and fertilizer.

Umm... .I really don't think "this" is about the lawn or anything to do with a "basis in fact" about the lawn.


FF

[braveSun]

From what you have described in those two conversation I see a theme of 'what the neighbors think of us".

I was a teacher in a small community before and naturally it's very much a part of the teacher's sensitivity as a community leader of sorts.