Beating the BPD at their own game?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am a newbie to this forum but wondered is there any value to trying to reverse the pain and suffering of manipulation on the BPD individual?

Is that possible?  Just human nature to wonder after all the pain she has unleashed on our family and she just assumes she can ride off into the sunset with her newest target leaving havoc in her wake.

I am working to finalize a year of a nasty child custody legal battle with my wife who is BPD... .have read numerous books on the BPD and understand the most recommended path forward is NO CONTACT.  Is there any other options to consider?

Just courious... .

[Ollie2018]

I am a newbie to this forum but wondered is there any value to trying to reverse the pain and suffering of manipulation on the BPD individual?

Is that possible?  Just human nature to wonder after all the pain she has unleashed on our family and she just assumes she can ride off into the sunset with her newest target leaving havoc in her wake.

I am working to finalize a year of a nasty child custody legal battle with my wife who is BPD... .have read numerous books on the BPD and understand the most recommended path forward is NO CONTACT.  Is there any other options to consider?

Just courious... .

[Panda39]

Hi Ollie2108,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

We can't really do "no contact" when we share children with someone with BPD, but what we can do is lower contact, have boundaries, and not feed the drama.

I hear the anger in your post, I was angry when I first arrived here too. People with BPD seem to be masters at leaving pain and chaos in their wake.  There are great members here that have walked in your shoes, that get it.  There are also tools we can share that can help.

My significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters.  The "nasty child custody legal battle" is familiar in my situation and many others here.  How many/how old are your kids?  What does your custody currently look like?

Have you seen the box to the right --> each item is a link to more information where do you think you might be on the list?

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Ollie2018]

Thanks for the advice.

I am just starting down this path and understand it is a marathon not a sprint.

My daughters are 8 and 10 years.

Currently still under temporary court orders so no real custody directives until we get through trial this month.

We currently still live in the same house during the 12 month divorce proceeding.  She has been very effective to delay the process and continue to inflict pain to try and wear me down to settle and give in to her demands for custody of kids, the home, major portion of community property, and spousal support.  I posted a detailed background for my situation in the Divorce advice and legal topic area.  Have been married for 13 years and just recently discovered wife is Un diagnosed BPD, has had numerous affairs entire marriage and two of the men are felons with criminal records.  She has been a terrible double life deceitful wife.  I trusted her to no end.  She is a stay at home mom and used her time to have affairs while I traveled for work.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Hello and welcome, Ollie2018!

To make sure I understand what you're asking, are you asking if it's possible to give them a taste of their own medicine (for lack of a better phrase)?

If so, from my experience, I'm not sure it's possible. If it is, it may not be easy to do or even worth it. My ex-h is uNPD\uBPD.  When he wrote or said something nasty and completely uncalled for to me, I would immediately mirror it back to him hoping he would see how awful that was. His response? "Why are you being mean to me?" He truly seemed unable to see that I had parroted back to him verbatim what he just said or wrote to me. He truly did not seem to understand what I was trying to do even when I tried to explain that I was mirroring/parroting back to him verbatim what he just wrote/said to me! It was mind boggling (and still is)!

It's been a few years since we divorced and he's still that way for the most part. Recently I called him out on his hypocrisy and double standards in writing in a very BIFF-like manner. He has yet to reply and I don't think he will. Maybe I finally got my point across. I don't know and I may never know. I believe he has deep rooted feelings of shame and he tends to project onto me quite often. I've learned to stay calm and to not take it personally, as hard as that is.

I've also learned that I need to take the high road and not give him a taste of his own medicine which isn't easy. It took me a while to realize that he probably lives in his own personal hell that he brought on himself. The best thing I can do for me and my children is to go low-contact and keep everything as BIFF and grey rock as possible. I've learned the hard way that it is not worth it to engage in verbal confrontations/battles with him because that is exactly what he wants. He wants chaos and thrives on conflict. He tries to push my buttons to get me to react and he seems to get off on it. It seems he wants me to look like the unstable abuser and that is not who I am. So by doing the opposite of what it seems he wants, it seems to drive him nuts and it's better for my mental/emotional health as well as my children's. He seems to hate it when I'm cool, calm, collected, and respond to him in a very business like manner and only when it involves the kids. I almost hate to admit it but it feels satisfying in a way when that happens. I'm proud of myself for controlling my reactions and secretly happy he's in his own hell.

I'm really sorry to hear what you're going through. I can't imagine how that feels. My divorce was a hellish nightmare and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Having said that, I'm really glad you found this forum. It's a wonderful place with great people who have fantastic insight and advice.

[Ollie2018]

Thanks!

Yes I did mean give them a taste of their own medicine... .

I try to take the high road and calm the communications down but I am human and she can push my buttons like an expert.  I hope over time I can manage my responses better and minimize contact as much as possible and still raise our children.

[Ollie2018]

It is really amazing to read through others posts and learn of their experiences and how close to almost exactly they match my experiences.

This forum will be a big help wish I had found it months ago... .

[Panda39]

Ollie, if you want to talk Legal Strategy we have a "Legal Board" where you can get information and ideas regarding custody... .link below... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

I also have a book suggestion... .

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
by Bill Eddy

Panda39

[formflier]

Here is the thing about "giving them their own medicine" or "playing their game".  They are good at their game, you are not... .it's not going to go well for you.

I understand the temptation and desire... .but they have done "this"... whatever this is... .way longer than you have.

What kind of things "get done" that you want to "do back"?

FF

[Ollie2018]

Thank you for your reply.

I have recently realized they have been a fraud the entire marriage, 13 years.  She was texting, after review of old cellular devices, other men when we had just come back from our wedding honeymoon.  Dang old cell devices, leave them laying around and they provide a wealth of confirmatory data when one starts to research and do detective work... .

She has lived a completely double life of deceit and fraud.  She has set herself up as super mom, leads PTA at kids school, Girl Scout leader, home room mom every year.  She is beyond belief on the scale of being a hypocrite.  Not to mention the other associated manipulation he’ll she has subjected me and my daughters to for years.

I had thought about correcting the facts with the numerous folks she has fooled into to believing she is the honest, kind, and law abiding super mom as she portrays with just the plain facts and truth.

Then those folks can make up their own mind how they wish to proceed in their relationship with my wife.

Her video deposition for the upcoming court trial is unbelievable where she readily admits to years of affairs and terrible lies and complete fraudulent double lifestyle.  She is proud of her deeds and really does not exhibit any signs of remorse and or guilt for how her choices will alter our kids lives forever. 

That is what I was thinking... .

I did not even know what BPD was 10 months ago... .never suspected wife doing this horrible stuff... .

[Red5]

Good Morning Ollie2018,

I am very sorry that you are going through all of this, your posts reminds me of my first marriage which "lasted" almost twenty-two years.

I had no idea what was the real problem all those years, and not even after we divorced; I chalked it all up to the abuse that my first wife had suffered s a child/teenager, which was accurate to a degree, but not fully (by me) understood as to why/what specifically (traits of)... .not until now, even as I have remarried to another lady whom I now believe is a pw/BPD, .

As you describe, I too found out way more than I ever wanted too after the first marriage had ended, ie' a "double life".

I am now a firm believer in "not knowing" is better than "knowing"... .

Tough stuff I know.

I have been listening to a persons YouTube channel (Kris Godinez & BPD [title was More on Borderline Personality Disorder]), and yesterday I heard this... .BPD is actually a collection of all the ten disordered traits (there of)... .ie' what you are describing sounds a lot like npd (narcissistic pd) behaviors... .as in "She is proud of her deeds and really does not exhibit any signs of remorse and or guilt ".

So the lady went on to say that BPD is a collection of all ten;

... .Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD

*Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)

Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD

*Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)

Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD... .

Extremely difficult... .but interesting stuff, albeit having to live within this.

I did not even know what BPD was 10 months ago

Its been about sixteen months for me, and I am seven years into a second marriage to a pw/BPD (suspected, but not dx)... .

There is much to learn, and you will give yourself a degree of "peace of mind" as you learn more.

Good luck, and keep us posted... .and most important to take good care of yourself and your children.

Red5

[Skip]

I have been listening to a persons YouTube channel (Kris Godinez & BPD [title was More on Borderline Personality Disorder]), and yesterday I heard this ... .BPD is actually a collection of all the ten disordered traits (there of)

Hey Red, she said that, but it is not at all true.

Everyone, please be careful of vblog and blog "experts", there is a lot of not-to-reliable sources out there.  Godinez has a University of Phoenix (you know, the online University on TV) masters degree in family therapy. The experts in BPD, on the otherhand, are largely associated with major universities and are MD and PhD level with very specialized training. This is not a criticism of Godinez, she seems like a very interesting and well meaning person, its just saying that the President of the Homeowners Association and the Mayor of a large city are both "political leaders", but not at the same level.

New York psychoanalyst Adolf Stern is credited with loosely using the term “borderline” in 1938 to describe a condition that he thought was on the border between neurosis and psychosis. While the name stuck, the "neurosis and psychosis" idea was abandoned pretty early on because BPD bears little relation to most psychotic disorders.

The roots of ASAP didn't surface for another decade. And the idea of "Personality disorders" didn't make it into the mainstream until the 1960's.

Godinez's idea that BPD is a constellation of all the other personality disorders doesn't make sense. Why would it be in Cluster B if it was an constellation of all three clusters?  

Here is the official, long version, definition of BPD
https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder

The DSM 5 has two specific disorders for people with overlaps, 301.89, 301.90:

"Other specified personality disorder (301.89)" - person does not meet the full criteria for any of the disorders in the personality disorders diagnostic class

"Unspecified personality disorder (301.90)" which is defined as "the individual's personality pattern meets the general criteria for a personality disorder, and includes traits of several different personality disorders".


Date: 10-2015Minutes: 1:26
More on Borderline Personality Disorder (excerpt)

There is also the issue of having more than one mental illness at the same time.

Under the DSM 5 Classifications

Comorbid w/BPD-------------- Paranoid Schizoid Schizotypal Antisocial Histrionic Narcissistic Avoidant<br/>:)ependent OCD More info

Men----------- 17% 11% 39% 19% 10% 47% 11% 2% 22%

Women------- 25% 14% 35% 9% 10% 32% 16% 4% 24%

These urban legend definitions are popular, but not helpful.

[Red5]

Thanks Skip !

I do have a question for you, (highjack), .

What are your thoughts of Histrionic verses Borderline, .can the two be intertwined?

I am reading this right now... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61196.0

And, what do you know about Ashley Burges?

Red5,

[Cromwell]

I am a newbie to this forum but wondered is there any value to trying to reverse the pain and suffering of manipulation on the BPD individual?

Is that possible?  Just human nature to wonder after all the pain she has unleashed on our family and she just assumes she can ride off into the sunset with her newest target leaving havoc in her wake.

I am working to finalize a year of a nasty child custody legal battle with my wife who is BPD... .have read numerous books on the BPD and understand the most recommended path forward is NO CONTACT.  Is there any other options to consider?

Just courious... .

I do feel that going No Contact does have the biggest yield in my case, of invoking the shame triggerment. Yet, it is something that is short-lived, when you are out of their lives they have already got into a new relationship and that is where there thoughts are literally consumed in. You may occassionaly be a subject to be hated on or despised. My ex was most unhappy when she had no relationship and could only think back to her previous ones and had to confront the reality of could it really be true that she was right and all the exs were wrong? not an easy logic to apply when you repeatedly end up discarded. Its why she never left r/s unless it was for a new one, but sometimes she was discarded and never had that option. Thats when she was at her lowest and most desperate. Actually, thats when my number as a "friend" got unblocked after 6 months of her vanishing off the face of the earth prior to that.

During a time she hurt me the most, I hit towards the chinks in her emotional armour. I hit her weakpoints to an unprecedented level, I never expected just how sensitive she was. What did it result in? Validation for her that I was a bad person - there was no processing whatsoever of the nastiness she did to provoke it. It was an impulsive but reckless move on my part. My words were stored up ammunition for her and she held them as long term grudges that she could use when she felt like it. Oddly, it had the initial effect of making her gravitate towards me more. More indicators to the bizareness, unpredictable outcome of trying anything.

Skip revealed to me that my eventual ghosting form of NC would have "freaked her out". I never thought of it that way until ive observed post/rs and read more into it, the disappearing hits towards the psychosis element of the condition - its why I was stalked 24/7.

My advice is not entertain any ideas of return-firing any pain you have, if she is in a r/s now, take advantage to fade away out the picture and just feel - glad - if that actually works, its not a guarantee. Why think of any vengeance, the person you were with, for them to act the way that they have; sabotaging everything good in life, is the biggest curse to live with in itself. In short, there is nothing you can do to damage something that already is. It is actually more likely to have a paradoxical effect and she will thrive off the attempt, despite maybe some initial discomfort, it justs opens up a "tit for tat" mentality in my experience.

Stick to the cardinal rule of being the mature one.

[Chynna]

   Hi Ollie, No!... .the "two can play at this game" is not the answer. My xbf had no concept of what he was doing to me.  I tried this tactic once (before I was aware of the illness) and it is an experience he will hold against me throughout infinity. I have no reason to believe our paths will ever cross again but you have your children to consider. ~Chynna

[Panda39]

In short, there is nothing you can do to damage something that already is. It is actually more likely to have a paradoxical effect and she will thrive off the attempt, despite maybe some initial discomfort, it justs opens up a "tit for tat" mentality in my experience.

Stick to the cardinal rule of being the mature one.

Cromwell You hit the nail on the head 

I arrived here very angry at my SO's ex and wanted to punish her, with help from the great folks here I was able to work through the anger, learn radical acceptance (his ex was gonna say and do what she was gonna say and do) and let go.

Her own dysfunction has brought her own suffering.  She was evicted 3 times and now lives in a hotel (we think supported by her brother's money & frequent flier miles), she has lost all the friends she had back when I met my SO, she had a year of probation for fraud, one of her daughter's has been no contact with her for 2.5 years, and the other daughter is low contact (mostly texting and phone calls).  It seems that her FOO wants nothing to do with her... .her dysfunction has created her own punishment.  I can honestly say that I feel some compassion for her these days, but there are consequences to our own actions and she's living with her's.

Ollie,
Your wife will suffer her own consequences for her actions, you don't need to do anything she will do it all by herself.  Her actions have already lost her a good husband, her actions will most likely lose her time with her daughters, might lose her, her home, and she could get her hurt by the company she is keeping etc.  Take the high road and let her walk her road.

Panda39

[Ollie2018]

Thank you All!

Good food for thought!

[Notwendy]

It is actually more likely to have a paradoxical effect and she will thrive off the attempt, despite maybe some initial discomfort, it justs opens up a "tit for tat" mentality in my experience.

Stick to the cardinal rule of being the mature one.


Exactly. A term I have used to describe this is "peeing into the wind". I attribute it to the functions of projection and denial. The rages are a form of emotional purging and the blaming on you or someone else is a form of projection. 

I can understand wanting to give someone who hurt you a taste of their own medicine. However, if their way of managing hurt feelings is to project/deny- those feelings are going to come out somehow so they don't feel them- usually right back at you.

In addition, you have then harmed your own integrity by sinking into behaviors you don't respect yourself in the long run. It also perpetuates the drama triangle to take Persecutor role.
 

[Stolen]

Here is the thing about "giving them their own medicine" or "playing their game".  They are good at their game, you are not... .it's not going to go well for you.

Brings to mind the adage ":)on't wrestle with a pig. You will get filthy and the pig will enjoy it"

Not only are "they" good at their game, they ARE their game. You will step outside of yourself to strike back, compromising your authenticity and  goodness.  "They" will be where they have always been, ensconced in their disordered identity.

I understand your motivation, and I certainly lived it during my 3 decades of FOG. Every attempt was for naught, and served to diminish me to no end.

You can't beat them at their game, and you can't outlast them. 

Focus on yourself, and especially your children. Let someone else carry the burden of judgement and retribution.

Good luck.

[Skip]

Brings to mind the adage ":)on't wrestle with a pig. You will get filthy and the pig will enjoy it"

   Great quote, Stolen... .

"What’s the sense of wrestling with a pig? You both get all over muddy - and the pig likes it." ~ Cyrus Stuart Ching (1948)

[Stolen]

My ex-h is uNPD\uBPD.  When he wrote or said something nasty and completely uncalled for to me, I would immediately mirror it back to him hoping he would see how awful that was. His response? "Why are you being mean to me?" He truly seemed unable to see that I had parroted back to him verbatim what he just said or wrote to me. He truly did not seem to understand what I was trying to do even when I tried to explain that I was mirroring/parroting back to him verbatim what he just wrote/said to me! It was mind boggling (and still is)!

IATF,

Sorry for the derail, but your words brought me right back. So many times I would try to reflect what my xW had spit at me - with the same intent you had.  It consistently elicited the reflexive response that any disagreement or criticism would - pure rage.  So many dysphoric episodes of "don't mimic me!", complete with the black eyes and bulging veins that I grew so familiar with. 

My intent to "show her" her own behavior failed miserably. All she could see and feel was me triggering her core shame. I tried to have her look in the mirror at her own behavior, and she just couldn't stand to look at herself.

And this comment: His response? "Why are you being mean to me?"

Again - so, so many times,  exasperated I would plead "can't you just be nice?".  Again - zero introspection, but immediate rage with "YOU BE NICE!".

Oh - it is a fascinating, but horrible disorder. 

Again - sorry for the derail.  But I was triggered!   

Peace.

[Ollie2018]

Ok so it sounds as if providing a pwBPD with a taste of their own medicine is not recommended.

I understand they will not associate their own medicine as directly tied to their own horrible treatment of me and our family.

I am not putting a leash on my attorney during trial as she will undoubtedly gut my wife and her attorney to insure she is so fly beaten into the pavement.  That is a fight for my family my daughters so it will be nasty but that has been the par for the course over last year of pre-trial motions.

She deserves a huge dose of Karma which I am a firm believer in... .she will be caught by karma some day and it will wreck her.

I do not believe I should withhold the facts and the truth for friends and family post divorce.  She has been busy over last 12 months spreading her story of how she is a victim and the divorce is not her fault.  I have held my tongue as we are under sort orders not to discuss the trial or facts but she is not a rule follower.

It would not be unhealthy to make sure close friends and family are provided the facts of the situation and resulting divorce, right?

[formflier]

It would not be unhealthy to make sure close friends and family are provided the facts of the situation and resulting divorce, right?

Well... .let's think this through... .from a "boundaries" point of view.

You and your wife have different "versions" of what is and has gone on.  What role would others play if you tell them your version... and she tells them hers?

Am I correct in understanding you have some worry about what happens if she tells her version... and you don't have a version to tell?

You are doing a good job asking questions and reflecting back... .let's continue to look at this from all angles.


FF

[Cromwell]

Ok so it sounds as if providing a pwBPD with a taste of their own medicine is not recommended.

I understand they will not associate their own medicine as directly tied to their own horrible treatment of me and our family.

I am not putting a leash on my attorney during trial as she will undoubtedly gut my wife and her attorney to insure she is so fly beaten into the pavement.  That is a fight for my family my daughters so it will be nasty but that has been the par for the course over last year of pre-trial motions.

She deserves a huge dose of Karma which I am a firm believer in... .she will be caught by karma some day and it will wreck her.

I do not believe I should withhold the facts and the truth for friends and family post divorce.  She has been busy over last 12 months spreading her story of how she is a victim and the divorce is not her fault.  I have held my tongue as we are under sort orders not to discuss the trial or facts but she is not a rule follower.

It would not be unhealthy to make sure close friends and family are provided the facts of the situation and resulting divorce, right?

Knowing nothing about the law related to divorce where your from, just thinking, is there any scope of pursuing this, any evidence of her non compliance with a court directive and using it as leverage?

Just how my mind works.

From my what ive read on here, litigation is something the pwBPD doesnt like to lose. Ok who does, but litigation gets taken out almost vexatiously on the non more to prove a point than to make any real gain.

if she "wins" she gets to forever validate herself as the victim of the [fill negative word here] husband as a way to get sympathy and validate herself.

I knw you cant go into details, just something maybe to think about.

if she loses, well... .I can imagine it wont make for a happy day for her, thats to say the least.

[Slonzok]

Dear Ollie,

I am actually convinced that one can give them a taste of their own medicine successfully. You could in fact win the competition even if they have more experience because you would use these techniques consciously and stay calm. But the most important point is to know when you may try this - in the wrong setting it may lead to a nuclear exchange you probably wouldn't wish for... .

[Ollie2018]

Ok so it sounds as if providing a pwBPD with a taste of their own medicine is not recommended.

I understand they will not associate their own medicine as directly tied to their own horrible treatment of me and our family.

I am not putting a leash on my attorney during trial as she will undoubtedly gut my wife and her attorney to insure she is so fly beaten into the pavement.  That is a fight for my family my daughters so it will be nasty but that has been the par for the course over last year of pre-trial motions.

She deserves a huge dose of Karma which I am a firm believer in... .she will be caught by karma some day and it will wreck her.

I do not believe I should withhold the facts and the truth for friends and family post divorce.  She has been busy over last 12 months spreading her story of how she is a victim and the divorce is not her fault.  I have held my tongue as we are under sort orders not to discuss the trial or facts but she is not a rule follower.

It would not be unhealthy to make sure close friends and family are provided the facts of the situation and resulting divorce, right?

Let me correct some typos... .

I am not putting a leash on my attorney during trial as she will undoubtedly gut my wife and her attorney to insure she is SOUNDLY  beaten into the pavement DESTROYED.  That is a fight for my family my daughters so it will be nasty but that has been the par for the course over last year of pre-trial motions.

[Ollie2018]

Knowing nothing about the law related to divorce where your from, just thinking, is there any scope of pursuing this, any evidence of her non compliance with a court directive and using it as leverage?

Just how my mind works.


Over the course of the last year we have been in court about three times a month ... .I am no expert but that seems like a lot of court face time to me and extremely costly for the legal bills.  I am the sole provider for our family and trying to keep working and fight this with a stay at home mom (monster) has been very difficult.  Living under the same roof has Ben like being in the same fox hole with your enemy and 24/7 close hand to hand combat for one year.

Now being that is care deeply about not hurting the children who are the friendly non combatants stuck in the same hole with us, I am constantly employing limits to my responses and actions whereas she is not concerned for hurting everyone in the fox hole because she believes she has done nothing wrong!  As she has told me EVERY ONE CHEATS AND HAS AFFAIRS.  She saw her opportunity and she took it to have fun.

In her twisted thought process she is now been falsely punished for doing what she wanted and playing the field for a better soul mate, forget the consequences because she accepts nothing as her fault.

She is just mad at me for catching her and making such a big deal out of it.  She tells me what is done is done and enough time has passed and I should get over it. 

I am the one going to the trouble of a contested divorce or FAULT divorce and not accepting the easier NO-FAULT divorce in our situation.

She has basically thrown a live bomb into the middle of our family’s world and blown it up.

The entire marriage has been one big sham because when we got into reviewing cellular devices and computer equipment it was determined she has been using emails, texts, and social media with secret user profiles to troll the web for men and targets for affairs.  About every time I start to believe we have finally put our arms around everything she has done it gets worse... .much worse... .to the point of possible criminal activity involving insurance beneficiaries and possible money payouts.  I have very real concerns she may be more than a BPD.

I am trying to go to the mat and protect my daughters.  It is not about the money.  Believe me we have burned up a tremendous amount of family resources but she could stop at any time and just accept that involving felons in the lives of our daughters is not proper parenting.  She is definitely off in left field and once I saw her true self behind her mask she became enraged and now it has been war.

A war which there is no chance of peaceful settlement because I cannot accept placing our kids into harms way of her terrible choices.  I have tried multiple times to offer chances of settlement as long as the kids are protected.  She wants the kids because they are simply leverage in her view point.  She now realizes she is not going to walk away with a big pay day and probably has not hooked another target with funds willing to pick up her baggage and support her to the level I have for the last 13years.

This case should never be going to trial in front of jury.  I have been very detailed in documenting evidence of her violating the standing court orders for our county court system.  She has almost been proud of her willingness to not follow rules no matter what. 

She has been captured by our home nanny cameras with hours and hours of very incriminating evidence of her sexual affairs.  Also hours of ignoring our children while she was shut away in the other room texting, sexting, and talking with other men ( two of which are convicted felons with violent histories).  She never stopped to think before it was too late that whatever you send out in a text or email can be produced as evidence.  I have so much evidence of her horrible double life it is ridiculous we have had to fight it out for the last 12months so far.  We went to court ordered mediation over one month ago and I offered to pay her a hefty sum and give her access to be involved in our kids lives as long as she agreed to strict ground rules.  I offered to support her with maximum spousal support until she was able to get on her feet.

I offered her basically everything but the kids for uncontrolled possession.  She laughed and doubled down and refused any mediation and was more concerned about how her reputation would be damaged if she did not get full custody of the kids... .so we fight on.  After mediation attempts failed we returned to the same house!

I cannot believe our court system thinks it is a good ideal for us to be living in the same home during this engagement /battle.

She fires away and does not care who catches a bullet while I take it on the chin and tell myself it cannot be much longer for the trial where either way someone is walking into a buzzsaw with a jury of 12 people who will not see these issues as my wife and I do.

The kids are in harms way but to just stop and walk away which I could do at any time would be to abandon them to her crazy screwed up BPD and or other conditions she suffers.

Sorry to get long winded but to answer , yes we have documented evidence of wife breaking numerous orders by court but they will be laid out for the judge and jury at trial.  We have tried to get her out of the home more than once with evidence of her rule breaking and the judges have not granted it.

Her appearance in court will not go as she believes.  I know jury’s can surprise everyone but I trust that with evidence so condemning they cannot ignore it and if they do guess I will be back in court again real soon.  I am not walking away from our kids ever.  She is crazy but I am committed to protect the kids... .who do you think is going to tire out sooner? 

[Ollie2018]

If we did not have kids together this would have been over and done one year ago and I would have turned into a ghost and dissolved from her life without another comment, word, or sound.

I loved the woman I believed I married and had two beautiful daughter with.  As of last year at Father’s Day weekend I truely had no clue and was in a deeply committed marriage.  I trust her without limits.  Never suspected anything was wrong.  She is that good and I guess I trusted her too much.

Problem is the woman I married never really existed and was completely manufactured... .I understand oh too well now.

[MrRight]

Hi Ollie2018

yes indeed - if children were not involved many of would become ghosts and just vanish.

We have tried to get her out of the home more than once with evidence of her rule breaking and the judges have not granted it.

Mothers usually win custody anyway but particularly as you have 2 girls. If her crimes are perceived mainly to be against the marriage through infidelity - rather than poor parenting - it may be difficult to win. She will no doubt say you drove her to infidelity through your behaviour. Sexting and texting with guys online while your 2 daughters do their own thing in the house is not pleasant and I can see how it would enrage you - any husband - but on its own may not be evidence of her being a poor parent. 2 felons? did she introduce these men to your daughters? I am sure she will trivialise a lot of the evidence which you feel is strong but the court may not put as much weight on it as you think. I can see her looking the judge in the eye, pleadingly, and insisting that two growing daughters need a mother more than a father. It will take a lot to convince him/her otherwise.

Well best of luck - revenging on a pwBPD is no easy task - as has been pointed out - they are the experts in nastiness.

[Notwendy]

Ollie- It may help you to distinguish between you inflicting pain on her out of revenge and the natural consequences of her behavior.

Her behavior has caused you pain and indulging the wish to hurt her back is perpetuating the drama triangle.

The natural consequences of her behavior are her responsibility. You don't have to protect her from that in all cases. Protecting someone from the natural consequences of their behavior is a form of enabling. In some cases I think we should step in. Don't let a friend drive drunk. (life threatening to them and others ) However, if someone is an alcoholic - don't enable them. ( cover up for them to their boss, etc. not life threatening)

Your wife cheated on you. Your boundary is not to be married to someone who cheats, and the natural consequence for her is a divorce. You don't have to protect her from the legal consequences of her actions. If the lawyers go after her, it's the process. Doing what you need to do to protect yourself and your family is the process. Divorces are messy and tough. That's how it is.

Making things worse for her due to your anger and hurt could cross the line to revenge. This is the area/drama to not cross into.

It is maddening to have someone tell their (inaccurate version ) of their story. However, I think we need to use caution and judgement when telling ours. My BPD mother has smeared me to her relatives and friends. I realized that if I told my side, I would have to in a sense, smear her to them. It would make me look bad and put them in a bind- who to believe, her word or mine as the stories are so different. I decided to just let it go, act civil and let them figure it out in time.

If she hurts you professionally, I suppose there are legal steps to take in the case of slander. In the case of parental alienation, I think there is advice on how to handle that.

Just don't let your anger and hurt lead you to stoop to a low level for you and harm your own integrity.

[Blueskyday]

I am in a situation with a Grandchild, whilst not exactly the same I am effectively co-parenting.

My advice is read about the drama triange. Google it, its good info.

The best form of revenge is success. If there is any Narcissistic personality traits then ignoring her is your most lethal weapon.

Try to accept it is done. Seeking revenge can be a way we hold on to someone who is in their minds long done with us.