Wife isn't accountable and I don't enforce boundaries

[ziasquinn3000]

My therapist suggested she is trying to level the playing field as I already have my own retained lawyer from when this happened last year. My lawyer already left a message with her lawyer. My lawyer said I could reply, so this is what I think I will send. S.E.T.

Support: I care about you and want to try to help this situation be as friendly and smooth as possible. I will do what needs to be done to help out.

Empathy: I see how this is something that you want a lot and is very important to you and will be sure to sign acknowledgement for you.

Truth: I had to check with my lawyer, he said he'd leave (your lawyer) a message and he can get in touch with him whenever you're finished and I can sign from home. I find myself thinking about you a lot and would still like to work things out, starting with a session with (her DBT therapist) so we can be friendly about this.

Any critique on how I'm utilizing SET?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ziasquinn3000]

Update. Her lawyer replied to my lawyer and must've told my wife that. I got a call from my wife but did not answer. I texted her I was in a meeting then we ended up opening conversation later. I learned from the other conversations of what to do and not do. I trusted my gut and stuck to my boundaries and made it very clear I will only meet her with her therapist while also using SET.

She tried to break it 3 times, but she finally respect the boundary! I will be seeing her tomorrow afternoon with her DBT therapist. What a rollercoaster.

[ziasquinn3000]

She said nevermind and she will be signing the papers tomorrow. I asked her why? Then she sent this: "Basically what I want to say is this: I love you, I care about you, but there is no chance we are going to end up back together. And we probably couldn’t handle being friends. The fact that you want a couples session because you’re hopeful we can get back together makes me very uneasy. It’s not a possibility, unfortunately. I would give anything for one more night with you, one more kiss or hug, but I’m not willing to sacrifice my wellbeing for that. I am really learning who I am and I’m loving it. Yes, it is hard sometimes and I do miss you. But I was told by two different people at work that they’d never seen me happier. And I have never hung out with more friends than I have since I’ve moved out. And I’ve been learning responsibility, I’ve been planning my finances, and following through on my goals. I’m doing really really well. You helped me out a lot while we were together, but you also hurt me a lot. I was trapped in a relationship with someone who knew who they were, someone who knew everything I hadn’t learned yet. And now I am learning everything for myself. I need a life partner who is committed to me and shares the same values as me, and is willing to put 110% of their effort into us. I just don’t believe you have been able to give that to me, and I don’t believe you ever could. It’s just not who you are. I have accepted that as it is, and I am moving on to what I can do and what I can change."

I told her she sounded respectful so I was willing to drop my boundary just a little bit. I told her that's why I wanted to have the therapy session with her because my sentiments are the same and that we both have to grow and heal from this. I also said if this is the closure she wants I will respect it.

She ended up asking for dinner just us as closure. I said regardless of what our relationship is right now, I'm still not comfortable with it yet and will be keeping that part of my boundary. That I'd be willing to see her therapist and then go have dinner. Or perhaps I will feel up to it another night. I told her I didn't see the downside of also seeing her therapist then having dinner. She made it about cost so I said I'd pay. Then she made more excuses. Then she said stuff like well I'm going to sign the papers on Thursday, so I'm not sure how long you'll have to decide (even tho she said she was going to sign them tomorrow?) and I kept validating with SET but then she finally said "You know what I just realized. I have been fighting the past seven months (when she started DBT) for you to be a part of this relationship. I have been fighting for us for so long, and look at me, I’m fighting just for us to have some closure. The fighting should be over. I’m sick of fighting for you when you don’t even want any part of me or us at all."

I stopped replying when she started to become disrespectful and unreasonable. I really have a feeling that she means what she says. She wants out?

[Radcliff]

Wow, that's a lot of developments.  I admire how you're handling this.  You are being very mindful.  It's good that you noticed your reaction when you heard about her divorce intent -- trust your physical reactions to things.  The body talks to us. 

You are also doing a fantastic job at not being whiplashed back and forth by her direction changes and her guilt trips, etc.  In particular, the part about how you never were putting enough into the relationship.  Once a pwBPD starts to get some therapy, you see a confusing mix of healthier behaviors and the old behaviors.  You likely will still see some persistent distortions about your relationship history.  You shouldn't let it throw you, and I don't think you are.

In my state, your lawyer would be able to accept service of the divorce papers for you.  Since the lawyers are talking, you might want to ask if this is possible.  That way you're taken completely out of the loop of any discussions about what gets served when, and you remove that as a way that things can bother you or that she can use to communicate her emotions to you.

Even if you think a divorce would be simple, you still may want to get and read a copy of Splitting, by Bill Eddy.  The fact that she has retained a lawyer known for uncontested divorces is good news, though, and hopefully an indicator that she is not headed down a high-conflict path.  You have no kids, correct?  Is your financial situation simple?  Is she likely to ask for any sort of spousal support?

Are you still feeling like you'd like to try to save things, or are you feeling more like letting go?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

The divorce should be simple if it comes to be, but she seems to switch it up every way possible. It's very hard to read the situation. No kids, financials have been separate, even though I have mainly supported her. She couldn't hold a job for half a year but then after that and she started DBT she had to pay for it herself which was $1200 a month and she worked a lower wage job. She focuses on that a lot about how she's been putting in so much effort, because she's been paving her way through DBT basically (which I acknowledge all the damn time), yet she never does the homework, never does the books, all things I never get onto her about, but she does go and she does pay for it. During that "sink or swim" thing when we got back together I said I would absolutely not pay for her DBT but I would support her everywhere else. Anyways, if the divorce happens she's smart enough not to be stupid about it, which is interesting because she seemed surprised that my lawyer contacted her lawyer this morning. She said "I just wanted to inquire about you hiring an attorney. Was wondering if you have even read the paperwork from my lawyer? Also just wondering if you plan to fight in court or if this can be done smoothly. I honestly just want it to be over with." What I find to be interesting after I replied to her right after asking that she said "I am in no way hostile or upset with you. I just want to figure things out together. I truly truly do. And yes, that could mean that we end up together again. It could mean the opposite. I mean, we won’t really know until you’re actually willing to have a one on one conversation with me." when after a struggle, I finally steered her into inviting me to her therapy session.

After she invited me to see her therapist, she said her therapist asked what role he will play and what the goals will be. I said "(DBT therapist) will be a mediator and the goal will be how to move forward healthily in a way both of us approve of whether that is separating for good or working it out together."

But then when she changed her mind about therapy she said "but there is no chance we are going to end up back together. The fact that you want a couples session because you’re hopeful we can get back together makes me very uneasy. It’s not a possibility, unfortunately. " When she said the whole "we won't really know until you're willing to have a one on one conversation with me" Do you think I phrased the goal wrong for her to end up thinking this? Would her therapist advise against us meeting if she told him this is what I said?

I still feel the same way I did a month ago, our whole relationship really. There was a point about 5 months ago when I got in a pretty bad slump, but aside from that I've been an awesome husband. During this slump I was just out of it, because she kept screwing so many things up, blaming me, I wouldn't stand up for myself, etc. I really kicked things into overdrive a month ago (not that I haven't been doing these things since we've been together), where I wasn't categorizing or labeling, where I was validating left and right, I was enforcing strong boundaries (which is why she had to leave the house a couple times) etc. etc. I want to save things, but the ball is in her court right now. I've done all I can, my therapist has said I've gone way above and beyond our entire relationship and I think me always waiting for her to reach out now is a good thing and what I should do for some self-respect. I'm keeping my cool, staying detached but caring of course. I want her to do what's best for her. I know to actually save the longevity of our marriage, she has to live out on her own for a while and we have to both learn strong boundaries, good support systems, individual livelihoods, etc. It's just, I don't think it will have the same effect if I approach it with the attitude "let's stay separated and work on ourselves, but also go to couple's therapy while separated" I just don't really know. Ideally I would like to have it work that way, but it seems impossible.

But more importantly... .I don't really know if she does want to be gone for good. What she said sounds completely healthy "I just don’t believe you have been able to give that to me, and I don’t believe you ever could. It’s just not who you are. I have accepted that as it is, and I am moving on to what I can do and what I can change." But again, like you said "a confusing mix of healthier behaviors and the old behaviors." It's also more frustrating that this is what I wanted to begin with, the night this all happened. I told her she needed to stay away at least for a week. Then I told my therapist that day I WANT out of the cycle and that we can't cohabit-ate to get out of it. But now it seems like it's all her idea especially with the whole paragraph she said to me and now I'm just some salty dude who wants to "hope we can get back together".

And I can't tell her agenda for trying to get me alone. I can't get a proper read with how everything is bouncing around.

Anyways, I'm not getting pulled into anything. I validate whatever she says but kind of ignore it at the same time. Seems to mostly work. She seems to be indecisive about the divorce, so I'll just keep doing it. And I'm not chasing.

[ziasquinn3000]

You know what I find weird as well. When she said she changed her mind and I said why she asked to talk on the phone. I said ok and called her but she didn't answer then she said hold on then she sent me that big message. Maybe she didn't want to talk on the phone because she knew she wouldn't be able to say all of that.

And when I told her I'm not ready to lower my boundary entirely and that I'll let her know if I change my mind about having dinner with her she said this. "You know what I just realized. I have been fighting the past seven months for you to be a part of this relationship. I have been fighting for us for so long, and look at me, I’m fighting just for us to have some closure. The fighting should be over. I’m sick of fighting for you when you don’t even want any part of me or us at all."

[Radcliff]

Don't let her know you're even thinking about lowering a boundary.  You just shot the boundary up by saying that.

It sounds like she is all over the place.  You need to be solid, but with compassion and empathy.  If you are willing to talk with her with a therapist, then when she brings up talking, you can mention that again.  Speak of talking with a therapist as something you're looking forward to.  You are indicating your openness to talk.  Make sure it comes across as you articulating what you're comfortable with, not you trying to get her to do something.  Don't JADE about you putting in enough to the relationship, even though she sure is inviting you to JADE.  Validate her feelings about how much she's put in, validate any other feelings you can.  But be firm on your boundary.  She must know that there is one path to talk to you.

Beware that her DBT therapist is mainly her person.  But one advantage of getting in front of him is that you can communicate all the mixed messages you've been receiving.  Knowing that may be helpful for him; one would think he'd want to work with her on integrating all of these conflicting black/white feelings that she is having.  You likely won't reach any definitive conclusions in one session, but would hopefully get a better shared understanding of the situation between the three of you (with the caveat that your wife's distortions will be slow to fade, if ever).

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Well, I already said what I said so I feel like I should honor it regarding going to dinner when I feel up to it. Right now she's just been escalating and escalating because she hasn't been able to get her way. I did fail to validate her when she said the last thing she said because I just stopped talking to her at that point. I felt the conversation was going to get out of hand and honestly just failed to think of validating that.

Anyways, she had pitched the whole "Hm. I mean, I’m going to be signing all the papers Thursday morning. I would really prefer to see you tonight but I understand if you’re uncomfortable." but I guess she didn't like how she didn't get her way that night, because yesterday morning she signed the divorce papers. I signed acknowledgement of them today. I think at this point there is no turning back for her as she will continue to escalate. Right now there are no demands just the official filing. Her pull cycle should happen tomorrow or Friday and I think that's when I will offer to have dinner with her as I told her I would when I feel up to it.

My therapist suggested that she has lied to her therapist or did something that would cause her great shame if we actually met, because I might bring up "the truth". So we think that is out of the picture for her now because I made it very clear i'd go with her therapist, so right now it seems like a lose-lose-lose situation and there aren't any other options aside from her potentially escalating a nasty divorce.

Do you still think I should stick to the boundary even tho I already shot it up? At this point I feel like there is nothing to lose for going into a conversation in a public setting and bringing an open mind and validating, validating and validating and not validating the invalid. I can only control my own actions and lay the option of separation on the table for her. My therapist said it could be a viable option for me to go to the dinner with her as long as I go in with solid boundaries and a clear objective: only be in-front of other people, not being alone with her, no sex, and talking about how to separate. I feel pretty confident I can do that and I want to do that so I can give her a chance to really tell me what's on her mind and be compassionate and empathetic about it. To be comfortable with her taking the reins for a bit and just listening to what she has to say. This has always worked in the past and I just need to focus on making sure we don't cycle back, like always in the past haha.

[Radcliff]

If you and her therapist think dinner is a good idea, then go for it.  As you said, the dinner idea is already on the table (no pun intended  ).

From here on out, though, continue to be thoughtful about any boundaries you set, then be consistent.

If she comes around to wanting to stay in the marriage, are you willing to consider that, or are you simply looking for the most compassionate exit possible?  Are you sure of what you want?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I want to stay married to her while we are separated and heal from the damage we've caused each other. My objective is for us to be able to come to the relationship later and kind of start fresh with both of us having strong healthy boundaries, better support to each other, better support systems, individual lives, etc. etc. Right now it's not possible as I've already broken so many of my own boundaries. I want to focus on the longevity of our relationship, because breaking the boundary a week ago would've stopped this whole mess but we would've been in the same cycle. This is all possible with or without divorce, but a divorce right now leaves me very damaged emotionally and financially as it can be a big legal process if it becomes nasty, because after talking to my lawyer today it's not as easy as I thought.

Right now even tho I don't feel that hurt, I've been radically accepting everything, yadda yadda, I know that is the codependent side of me. I have been incredibly damaged even if I am trying to be strong right now. And again, there is so much I value of our relationship together that it is worth it to me and my values to continue it and knowingly will face similar issues down the road and by then I expect to be able to protect myself with strong boundaries and healthier values when it gets to that point and her to own her stuff too. I care about her and myself so much which is why I'm trying to get out of the cycle for the longevity of the relationship, her and myself, instead of something more short-term where we repeat and repeat and then implode. I also know I need to be very careful about this whole thing as to not be "wrapped around her pinky" as tends to happen when the non tries to get the relationship back on track.

One thing I might be stuck on tho as I'm sure it will come up in the conversation. How do I handle not validating the invalid. Because she is going to say how I don't put effort into the relationship. I can validate her by asking why she feels that way about it and I feel if I asked her what does she think would be putting effort in, that would be the validating the invalid part. So how do I address it without JADE-ing?

[Radcliff]

Yes, you want to avoid divorce, and do what you can to slow things down.

The trick to avoiding validating the invalid is often partial validation.  You look for anything she is saying that you can validate.  The most useful thing is validating emotions, because you can always validate emotions.

I think you can ask her what she feels would mean you are putting effort in, without validating the invalid.  She might have some good suggestions!  You could say something like, "It's very important to me that you feel like I'm giving my best effort to this relationship.  What would that look like to you?"  If she says something like "stop being an *sshole," or "read my mind," then you've got a challenge.  You could validate her emotions there, "It must hurt to feel like the one you love doesn't appreciate you," or "It must make you feel bad to think that your husband can't anticipate your needs."

Do you see how you can use partial validation, and in particular validation of her emotions?  It pays to get very good at this.  It can get you far.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Yeah I read all of the tools and skills posts about validation. That it is good to validate the primary emotion such as fear or sadness but not things like anger. When it gets to that point it's good to rein it back in and give the assumption of what she feels if she gives an impossible statement "stop being an ass" such as like you said "It must hurt to feel like the one you love doesn't appreciate you".

Phew, this is gonna be tough.

Thanks for the input.

[ziasquinn3000]

Reached out today. We are having dinner tomorrow night after she gets back from a trip with friends. She has work tonight so can't tonight. Seems like she is very calm and receptive but with a dash of trying to establish control or that I might not have a choice in the matter of divorce. She asked "Have you already received the paperwork from my lawyer? I don’t need to know your thoughts, just making sure you’ve received it" and I told her I knew it was important to her so I signed them yesterday. She said "I mean it’s not important to me, it just saves us both having a sheriff come to your work or home. It’s actually legally required that you sign acknowledgment." So I said "ah ok, makes sense." I'm not going to read too much into it though. Doesn't change my objective.

Any thoughts overall on that regarding the papers?

[ziasquinn3000]

She reached out to me again shortly after we confirmed our dinner plans last night. She wanted to know how I have been doing and what I've been up to. I let her know and asked the same. I made sure to focus on validating and showing genuine interest in her life. Eventually she said she was lonely and I tried to dissect that but it basically was her saying "she's still hung up on me and afraid to talk to other people" So I focused on her fear while she pressed to see if I was seeing other women or not. I focused on the fear and she eventually said she has just been having constant massive anxiety around people, like a social anxiety. I think I slipped out there because I validated that and then let her know that meeting together in therapy is still an option. She said she has individual therapy. she's fine and that she's not sure if things will work out between us. Both of us would have to make a lot of changes. I agreed with her and said and we need a lot of time to heal as well. She said she knows she hurt me a lot, "but" you also hurt me a lot too. I now really see how invalidating "but" is now that she said it. But either way I thanked her for the validation and then validated her back.

She messaged me again a couple hours later asking "do you miss me at all or do you feel better without me. you can be honest" so I replied with SET: "i care about you a lot and want you to be safe. i can see how you might feel that i do not miss you or do not want to be with you. my honest view of right now is we are both feeling hurt and need to heal. what i can personally do is continue to practice self care and work on my own individual issues which will make me a better person more suited for myself and potentially you. what i can also do is work on relationship issues through therapy as well." and then before I went to bed I told her I love her very much and that I hope her plans she has for tomorrow are pleasant and a goodnight.

She has not replied to either of those messages and I'm ok with that. I think it's really cool that I was able to say what I wanted to her that I love her very much. I didn't do it with any intentions or methodically thinking about anything. I wanted to say it so I did. I  had absolutely 0 anxiety about it and has been the calmest I've been in a couple weeks I think. I feel pretty confident right now and am focusing on what I can control.

Will still be going into the dinner tonight with the same objective of slowing the divorce down and giving time to think. I need to focus on one goal at a time even tho I still would like to work things out in couple's therapy while staying separated. Seems like couple's therapy is something I should set to the side for now.

[ziasquinn3000]

I went in with my goal. I was compassionate, listened to what she had to say, pretty much talking about her recent few days. Validated, which wasn't needed that much, she was pretty calm and aware. Usually when I mentioned how I was feeling or felt during what happened that could've been taken as "her fault" she would start to get slightly agitated and I would partial validate and then drop it. We got to the topic of us and she said she was confused about what's going on (I did pretty good about not JADE-ing what would make her "confused" since I had been pretty clear about offering to work on us). Seems like what my therapist suggested was right, her FP at work had been egging her on to divorce me and "that I don't care" while she would tell her FP "but he wants to go to couple's therapy... ." and the FP would say don't do it. I focused on the present and told her again I'm still committed and that I want to stay married to her while we separate. I didn't bring up therapy or working on issues etc I focused on my one goal at a time and that I want to at least give time for something that might not be able to be taken back. She said she wants that too and then she said she wants to to talk about what separation means for us. So we talked. We both understood we can't co-habitate or see each other too often as there has been serious damage done. I just kept leading by example and walking her through the steps, together on our decision.

We are going to stay married and separated. We spent a while defining what separation means to us and how we can be safe and nurturing with it. Separated to us means: I am going to see her DBT therapist on Tuesday to check-in and to walk through what we're wanting and making sure how to do it healthily. We will be going to couple's therapy once a week that isn't her DBT therapist. I will check in with her DBT therapist once a month or so. We will have 1 date night per week and 1 hangout per week. We both understand this is going to be incredibly difficult and we both want to work on ourselves for the longevity of our relationship. We are going to make more definitions in couple's therapy about how we can be as healthy as possible for what our separation is, what rules and boundaries need to be made.

She told me she wanted to be honest and after she filed the final papers she ended up making out with a customer that asked her out to a party (no intercourse). She said she felt really guilty and remorseful and she was so lonely. I focused on validating the lonely. To me one of my personal values is honesty so I appreciated she told me. This didn't bother me. We used to have an open marriage about a year ago and because she wasn't sure of what she wanted out of it we stopped, I have usually had open relationships prior to my wife as I am pretty progressive and secure in that way. I wasn't sure how to handle it otherwise tho and I asked her what would she do if the situation was flipped. She said forgiveness. It makes sense she was asking me if I had moved onto other women the other day. I guess she was projecting. I will be bringing this up with my therapist to make sure I'm not being codependent in that way. I can see how since she filed and thought we were done that she would do it and that was indeed her explanation.

[Radcliff]

Great work!
It sounds like you did a very good job of watching out for yourself, relying on outside help, and being flexible.  This is indeed, very tough stuff, but it's quite impressive what you've accomplished.

Starting with couples therapy is going to be a key milestone.  Have you selected a therapist yet?  Have you set a date for a first session?  Have you thought about whether or not you will sign releases so the couples therapist can speak with your individual therapists?  Will the couples therapist be someone who has expertise with BPD?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thank you!

We are going to her DBT therapist session on Tuesday and then right after that will be her group which I will be attending and then we will be meeting with the other members (there are 4 counselors that run her DBT center) of the DBT center to figure out how we will do couple's therapy with them. It might be multiple therapists in our couple's sessions. I will be adding a DBT therapist from that facility in addition to my own therapist, right now I'm seeing my own therapist twice a week and will switch her back to once a week then once a week with the DBT one. The one I have now will be for my own self growth, care and nurturing and the other will be for that as well and to also learn more skills to be better suited for this relationship (I think these skills are beneficial either way in my personal life with or without my wife). I think we might have couple's therapy slated for Wednesday or Thursday.

All very promising stuff. We met for lunch again today and talked for a few hours more deeply about these things, values goals and etc. There were pretty high highs when she was talking about things, such as moving back in right away. I was able to validate and steer her back to the original intents and not bring up the abuse. It was very hard not to focus *too* much on myself. I know she knows tho. It is very hard hearing the things that I have been codependently trying to help her with in our relationship be brought up as her doing them now and how she presents it as "Wow, I figured out how to do all these things and it's so good for me!". That all the things that I knew were healthy for her to do, she only just now does them while on her own. It makes me glad tho of course that she is able to do it now.

[Radcliff]

That's pretty amazing that you have access to those resources!

How did the Tuesday appointment go?

With skilled therapists and commitment from both parties, it truly can be energizing and hopeful.  Make sure to be open to progress, but reflect on the sessions and stay grounded.  I've found that in looking for accountability, it sometimes seems like there is accountability progress, then one realizes there are still distortions.  It is not a fast process.  Don't get overly hopeful, or overly discouraged.  Just keep at it.  Before you go back to living together, you want to make sure the distortions around what behavior is OK, who's threatening to whom, etc. are addressed.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thanks for checking in!

So the Tuesday appointment went "ok". It ended on a note that she thinks her striking me is not considered abuse because it's not "consistent" or "ill-intent" and that I am still not owning responsibility for "not being in the relationship" the past 6 months when she started DBT. I used my skills, partially validated where I could and tried to be compassionate. At that point tho continuing would be fruitless and time was almost out. Another part she tried focusing on is that "you can't choose when you have me or not. You always have to be there for me" in reference to me not letting her back in the house while I'm there.

The group session was good and ironically went over radical acceptance which is what I had been practicing during our initial separation. I think my therapist is right tho and I don't need to go and I can just use the books and learn on my own. I've already learned a lot from these forums compared to what I think would take months to go over in the DBT course. I don't think there is a downside to going tho so I probably still will.

Something that was pretty impressive at the end of the night when we were out of there she tried apologizing the best she could. I could see a tremendous amount of effort into her trying to own up to her responsibility in the relationship and that her thoughts of me not contributing effort is because she is basing it off "effort" in the past, where I have done much better and tries comparing all effort to that because I have done so much better in the past. She also has been saying she wants to move back in right away and that she realizes that is a short term goal and she needs to wait so it aligns with her long term goals (both of our long term goals) a strong, healthy and sustainable marriage to where she can be self reliant, etc.

Something I'd like to mention that happened Sunday. I had a my own therapy appointment for that evening as I set it up so I could prepare for Tuesday. Earlier in the day I invited her to come swimming and she said she'll think about it. Well later I went swimming and when I did she was in duress because of her FP boss from work was telling her how she messed up the day prior. I wasn't responding so she kinda freaked out but then re-regulated and said "oh you must be swimming, sorry for spamming you. I'm gonna come over and swim" then she came over. When she got there I told her I didn't have much time because I said up a therapy appointment for then because she said she wasn't going to go swimming. So I asked her if she would like to sit in on it and then we can get dinner afterwards. She agreed and said that could be a good idea. On the way there I texted my therapist to ask if she could sit in and my therapist said no because it's a conflict of interest since we originally started couple's therapy with her. My wife started saying that she doesn't know what she's doing and that her DBT therapist is always welcome for me to come into their session. So she said "either turn back around and drop me off and she's going home or we are going to dinner right now" I tried to compromise and tell her 1 hour and we can go get dinner. I really wanted to do the session. Didn't seem like she would budge and I thought about it and didn't think it would be worth it to make that boundary for her to get out of the car and go home. I composed myself and thought I can always reschedule the appointment, my wife wants my help right now and I can provide it so I will.

[ziasquinn3000]

Oh goodness. Today was kind of a hot mess and I got through it still ok. Just a good idea to keep anyone reading updated.

The past few days my wife has been stating her boss is verbally abusive towards her. To summarize her boss will tell her good job and then the next moment that she sucks at her job all while dangling a promotion in-front of her. My wife said the boss said she is hard on her because she cares about my wife and wants her to be the best worker there (makes sense, a lot of normal workplaces try this method). She has complained about this before in the past and lately my wife has said she just doesn't respond well to that kind of criticism and her boss should use other methods to give her feed"forward" but she can't stand up to her boss and tell her that because her boss is her FP. However I think she is trying to do this to segway back into moving in. This basically escalated things into my wife HAVING to move back in. Of course I just validate and empathize and remind her about our long term goals. This does the trick. However today she is making it very hard for me not to JADE.

She went to her therapy session today and decided she has to immediately quit work because her boss is so abusive. She ended up running out of gas because she is broke because she ran through all of her money and maxed all her credit cards. I didn't offer to help however I did tell her to let me know if she needs support from me. She reluctantly said she doesn't want to have to ask me for help and I told her it's ok if she does and then she asked to borrow some money to fill her gas until she gets paid so I sent her $20. From there she started having suicidal idealization again and that she can't go on. Her life isn't worth living because she can't even have gas in her car. She doesn't know what to do for work, etc. I kept validating and supporting. At a certain point she said she doesn't need validation and wanted to call me, so I said ok. So she called me and the same conversation happened, validated validated, finally she said she doesn't need validation and she said she is having suicidal thoughts and she NEEDS to meet with me and I told her she needs to call a hotline because I am not a professional to be able to help her and that I am at work and can't leave. She kept going "I can't I can't" over and over, I tried to validate but it was just the same message so I told her I am willing to communicate with her and she has to actually communicate back. I can't do anything if she says the same thing over and over otherwise I need to hang up and go back to work. So she hung up on me.

She messages me 10 mins later "I'm safe. Don't talk to me" I tell her "Ok I'm glad, please let me know when she would like to talk otherwise I will respect her wishes." 30 mins later she told me she called her boss and told her boss how she felt about her "being abusive" towards her and that she's going to go hang out with her boss (me, my friend and my therapist think this is her trying to find a caretaker because I will not caretake her by letting her move back in). They hang out, make dinner, she keeps messaging me what she's doing. They have dinner with her bosses dad, yadda yadda. She wraps up the night and said she kinda asked her boss again about the promotion she's been trying to get and asked to call me.

She calls me. It turns into a conversation about why didn't I support her earlier when she was on the brink of death. How come I prioritized work more than her? You know how it goes. I didn't JADE I just validated and supported. She said she doesn't want validation she wants answers. She said this is one of those "hard" conversations we have to have, so let's have it. So I said my piece, I told her I did the best I could with the knowledge of the situation which wasn't much because she couldn't communicate with me. She said well her boss was able to calm her down even tho she didn't know what she wanted. How come I can't support her like her boss did! I started to slightly JADE but I stopped myself and just told her I'm feeling uncomfortable with how this conversation is going because she became mocking and was attacking me and even tho I love and care for her very much I can't tolerate this kind of communication towards me. Eventually she just said she needs someone to listen, why couldn't I listen to her before (even tho I spent about 20 mins at work texting her then another 20 mins on the phone) so at this point I took the queue that she still need validation. I switched back to validation mode and also authoritative mode. I very calmly and sternly talked about how this would be hard for both of us and that we are both trying the best we can. etc. She just got quiet and kept quiet so I kept sternly talking about how much we are both trying to the best of our ability. She ended up saying she loves me very very much, etc. and then we left it on that good note and then she had to get to bed.

Phew. Frustrating. I do not know what to do when she says she does not need validation anymore. Because she is in DBT I feel like she is more capable of knowing when she doesn't or does need validation and I try to respect it when she says it. It's hard to respect that when she might still need it tho. I read tho it's important to take their word at face value and let them own what they want to. It's all a very delicate balance I wish I knew how to do better. I will trust my gut next time and continue to validate when I feel it's needed. I'm not sure how to get past the "I don't need validation" tho.

[Radcliff]

Wow, you are working your butt off.  Good work    Your use of boundaries and your tool use is excellent.  Without those boundaries, you'd both be having a much more turbulent ride.  Those boundaries are critical to her building resilience.

Taking her at face value on not needing validation seems good most of the time.  If you really thinks she still does, maybe you can figure out some more subtle "Plan B" phrases.  If she'd not looking for validation, perhaps you can try reflective listening?  Yes, that's a trick, because it's a form of validation   Try to identify her feelings and reflect them back to her, "It sounds like you're upset."

What would happen if you asked her, "How can I best support you now?"  Do you think she'd give you a useful answer?  Of course, if she says, "Let me move in tonight" you'll have your work cut out for yourself

Hang in there.  This is a marathon.  Keep us posted.  You've got great skills and are employing a lot of therapy resources, so your story is a unique and helpful one for folks to follow.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thanks for the validation haha! It's funny how I can see how useful it is when I receive it myself. I've been asking my wife to validate me recently and when she is able to it is very powerful. It really helps herself to gain insight on the situation when I ask for validation and she is able to give it. In the past I had always asked her "please empathize with me, look at it from my shoes" when I was faced with impossible situations. Asking for validation works a lot better!

Well, that's what I tried doing and she picks up on "It sounds like you're upset" and she identifies it as validating when I try to tell her my best guess of what she is actually feeling after she says to stop validating.

I did drop where the conversation was at and immediately asked her "How can I best support you right now?" This is the approach I have been trying when I feel the conversation is going nowhere. However in this case she says "You can give me answers! Why did you want me to die! Why can't you uphold what marriage means to you and support me when I need it!" or yes, "Let me move in". When she is too belligerent, asking her how I can support her is rarely fruitful. When she does give me answers to me asking how to support her, when they are impossible answers to reply to, I use SET however she's too smart for her own good to let it work. At that point is when I tell her I can't effectively communicate with her anymore and I feel uncomfortable and attacked so I will need to stop talking. She either withdraws first (hanging up) or gets the clue and then starts to calm down and be withdrawn and quietly say "you wanted me to die... ." and then that is when I can turn into authoritative, parent, confident mode and try to lead by example. I am hoping she comes back around as we made plans to have dinner tonight and I am by no means anxious or discouraged about if she doesn't. I've done the best I can and it's outside of my control now.

I am still working out better how to effectively communicate my boundaries while making sure they properly align to my core values. It always seems like things are going well and I don't need to preemptively bring up a "laundry list" of boundaries if that makes sense. And then whenever a boundary might need to be enforced, such as me not being removed from work after I already tried to support her the best I could, I feel like I get trapped in being able to effectively give the boundary since I didn't let her know beforehand. Tho I guess me telling her if we can't effectively communicate I will have to hang up and go back to work gave her plenty of chance to turn the conversation around. I had this same issue with what happened Sunday and didn't enforce the boundary of letting myself go to therapy, though I was also flexible about it so it was ok?

Before we met with her therapist on Tuesday the therapist asked us to define love and marriage. We did it on our own and then showed each other. We were super compatible and almost exactly the same in what our definitions were. It reminds me of the love-bombing / mirroring phase when we first dated however this seems really genuine on her end. I also added my personal values as a 3rd category to the love and marriage. Here they are.

Personal Values

I treat everybody with respect
I believe in open and honest communication in a relationship
I am considerate of other people’s time, views, money, belongings etc.
I should be accountable for my actions
To be financially stable and successful to be able to raise a family and live a comfortable life
My reputation and consistency in my behaviours is important to me
I want to be the best I can at whatever I put effort into
I am not entitled to anything from anyone except for my own-being, thoughts, ideas, etc.
Alone time and sleep is an important part of my self-care
I will only put 100% effort into my 50% of relationships that I am responsible for
(new, would like to add) Be compassionate and listen

[Radcliff]

Hey, that's an awesome set of values!  I ought to do the same exercise.  One of the big reasons I blew things up and asked for help in my situation is because I was leading a life out of whack with my core values.  There was no respect in our home, and things were getting out of control and in order for me to adhere to my values, I had to do something.

Funny, I was about to suggest SET, and then a moment later I read that you were trying it!  It sounds like you've got all your tools laid out and it comes down to time, effort, and serendipity to get the job done.

Brilliant that you are able to get her to validate you!  That's a hopeful sign that she can do that.  My wife learned validation in DBT, and the first time she used it on me, I just about fell over!

Remember, while you are a best-case partner for her to have going through this situation, you can't control her 50%.  I know you know that already, but I have to continually remind myself of that.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thanks! It was definitely a good exercise and that's basically what happened with me. There was no respect in the home which caused everything else to crumble down.

So regarding SET and other tools, right now as the rigidity of them takes a lot of conscious effort (I used to do them without knowing about them in the past as part of "survival" it makes me more machine-like in my execution of them until I can get the steps down organically through repetition, as you said. My wife sees this and it upsets her. I've tried explaining to her (not JADE) that it will take time for me to organically be able to support her in that specific way.

A lot has happened since the last update. She stayed over Saturday night and was exhausted so started to fall asleep early, she asked me to lay with her as she has in the past and then she would say "don't leave me" well I waited until she fell asleep and then when I tried getting up, while she was deadpan asleep she would roll over and bear hug me and say "don't leave me, don't leave me!" all while dead asleep! I brought this up with my therapist, it is pretty eerie that her obsession is so intense it carries over into her sleep.

Sunday morning we went to get breakfast and before the guy asked for her order I told him we are separate. She freaks out and tells me she doesn't have money (I assumed she had money because she told me she got the divorce retainer check back) so I told her ok no problem I'll cover you what do you want. She stormed off to a table and I just accepted the situation, finished ordering and paying for my food then went to the table. I let her talk. She demanded I apologize for embarrassing her. I focused on partial validation and focused on acting with the information I had at hand. It took a while and she finally settled down and went to go get her food and continued as it didn't happen. She later apologized for it.

I stayed the night with her on Tuesday because we made 4th of july plans for her to come over to my place because I had to watch the dogs due to the fireworks and she said because she has work in the morning she wouldn't' want to come over so let's move it to Tuesday. Before I was going to meet her for dinner she had suicidal ideation and started being upset with me that I couldn't fix her problem and I tried supporting her through it the best I could. Eventually I could no longer communicate with her and I told her that very clearly that I'm not able to talk to her if she doesn't work with me. I started to feel unsafe with what she was saying. She asked me to ask a clarifying question. I asked her if she was still upset with me. She said no. So I practiced being radically open to going to dinner with her since she was able to change her mood and attitude even after the barrage I went through. I had dinner with her and she brought up how unbearable her job is again. I found out the root issue is "she needs more sleep". I stayed the night with her that night because we made 4th of july plans for her to come over to my place because I had to watch the dogs due to the fireworks and she said because she has work in the morning she wouldn't' want to come over so let's move it to Tuesday. 4th of July rolls around and I'm at home and she just gets off her job in the evening and texts me telling me she's suicidal and wants me to take her to the hospital etc. etc. I ask her where she is and if I need to call an ambulance and she says she just wants me to come over and hold her. I explained very clearly that I had to take care of the dogs on this very specific date and that I already told her beforehand I had to do this. I told her I would come drive her to the hospital if she needed me too and if I got there and she didn't need to go anymore that I would have to go back home. Then she switched it back to me just coming over to hold her after I told her I was on my way to take her. She kept saying how she feels she's dying and I kept validating. She called me and she was withdrawn and any type of communication I would try to have she would just say "no" or nothing at all. I would very clearly ask her how she felt I could best support her right now and she would just tell me "I don't know." So that is something I want to work on myself is being able to better identify how to support her genuinely when she can't ask for what she wants. So I told her I feel like I can't effectively communicate with her so I think the best thing to do is for her to practice self care or utilize other support systems and that I will call her back in exactly 30 minutes. She said "Well I probably won't answer" I told her well I can only control myself and I will still call you in 30 minutes. If you choose not to answer I understand. I call her and after 2 rings it went to voicemail (she hung up on it) so I left a validating and re-assuring voicemail and then went about my night.

She wanted to meet for breakfast this morning. So I met her and she said she's looking for other jobs. To conclude our breakfast I just focused on supporting her decision even tho the very simple fix of what she needed was more sleep, she could've just changed her work schedule. It was very hard for me to do that. So she texted her work and quit. I have radically accepted this. I am not worrying about the future either tho it does make me think what options I have when she tells me she NEEDS to move back in because she can't get a job or something.

[Harri]

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Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327974.0;all