She asks me "what's wrong"...?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It took a lot of effort to not tell her exactly.

"You are crazy... .you've stopped participating in any of my medical care (doctors are "secular" and repeatedly state that there are no "secular" solutions to any of our problems... .we just need to follow what the preachers say."

I didn't say that... .but she clearly understands there is a lot of conflict and "withdrawal" in me.

I've planned a fun and productive day, mainly outside the house. 

She has heard my thoughts before and rejected them... .so... .how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again.


FF

[formflier]

It took a lot of effort to not tell her exactly.

"You are crazy... .you've stopped participating in any of my medical care (doctors are "secular" and repeatedly state that there are no "secular" solutions to any of our problems... .we just need to follow what the preachers say."

I didn't say that... .but she clearly understands there is a lot of conflict and "withdrawal" in me.

I've planned a fun and productive day, mainly outside the house. 

She has heard my thoughts before and rejected them... .so... .how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again.


FF

[Cat Familiar]

Never the twain shall meet... .

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to tell her exactly your thoughts and feelings without re-engaging in warfare. Hearing your POV, she will paint you as the devil, who undermines your family's faith.

I understand that you'd like to create more intimacy and closeness with her, but unfortunately this topic, amongst others, can't be broached.

I think about people like James Carville, the Democratic strategist, and Mary Matalin, the Republican operative, who married and had children--how on earth could these two, exceedingly different people have maintained a loving relationship? Well, I guess it's because certain topics (politics) are not discussed at home.

So, there's the conundrum. We nons dream of being able to fully share ourselves with our loved ones, but it never seems to go the way we would imagine it. For the sake of self protection and conflict avoidance, we withhold a certain part of ourselves. And our BPD spouses often sense that, inquire about it, and feel excluded, rejected, kept at a distance.

Of course, they're so good at feeling rejected and dismissed anyway... .

[formflier]

  Well, I guess it's because certain topics (politics) are not discussed at home.

 

I've always thought they were a fascinating couple. 


My assumption was they "respected" each others differences and were able to work around them.  My guess is they can discuss some of the stuff in a professional way, without "taking it personally".

with BPDish stuff... .they will find something that is obviously not personal to them and make it that way and respect is pretty much out of the picture.

We can listen to a sermon about how a person with (fill in the blank views) is someone with which the church "would not separate"... .in other words "acceptable" differences in the world of Christianity, yet if I express those same views at home as my sincerely held beliefs... .I'm not a Christian... .and family members get informed of my "sin"... .of course my wife "twists" my actual beliefs in her relating the story.

Sigh... .

Yeah... .keep my mouth shut.

FF

[Enabler]

Is there a non-secular solution to everything by Mrs FF? I assume all things have to be completed by faith related people... .window cleaning, house construction etc etc.

What would happen if your wife met a Christian Doctor, how would that work?

It's maddening when someone is so selective about what God and Faith can achieve. If we have enough faith, will God provide us with a Walmart (only US supermarket I know) delivery like manner from heaven? Food shopping is secular right? Will he educate our children, provide us with electricity, water, fuel for our cars... .where does his giving end and our fending for ourselves start?

Mrs Enabler believes that God will provide for her, she believes that God wants her to divorce me as I am the devil and she has been given a divine task to sanctify herself, and given the ordained gift of her other man to help her... .siiiigh. She spent much time telling me how I should not be worried about all things material and God would provide for us (last 10yrs). So, last night she's huffing and puffing at the kitchen table stressing about how much money we are shelling out for kids school things... .she's a little bit more aware of family finances now that she's had to work through the financial planning for the divorce and worried about how that's going to work out post divorce. See... .you can live in a fantasy world when you maintain a state of blissful ignorance, but when fantasy and reality are FORCED to collide one slowly sees that the fantasy is forced to be dropped.

I've done nothing to force this fantasy/reality collision, she has, and I do nothing to prevent it.

FF, I think you should be grateful that Mrs FF is not attempting to pollute your health plans, yes, I empathise that you want her to be 'normal' and want to participate, but you're not married to that person, you're married to Mrs FF and she has BPD.

[Notwendy]

FF, I have come to see those kinds of questions as drama bait and a sort of double bind. The drama serves a purpose between you. If you are preoccupied, drama shifts the focus back to her. Drama is also a way to let off steam for her. If you have become more calm and not engaged in drama, then she is noticing the lack of the drama "fix".

I have also tried to become sensitive to the statements that "hook" me into this. Often the hooks are something emotionally significant to me. If my mother wants to hit below the belt, she says something about my father. For my H, it would be about the house or kids ( my domain mainly) . Sometimes the hook is hope- this is the opportunity- he/she finally wants to hear how I feel, it will work this time.

Perhaps she is genuinely sincere this time, but if she is easily triggered, any hint that what is wrong might actually be her is going to send the conversation off to the races.

That doesn't mean we don't communicate, but I prefer direct, brief communication about a problem in the moment, close to when it happened. Then I brace myself for the response. But the issue has been said. Or I wait until things are calmer and say something. But these open ended out of the blue--- tell me what's wrong- I see that as a potential drama bait.

If "talking it out" could help, I think it would have worked already. I don't know if this resource will help you but it helped me to find other ways besides trying to talk. It isn't specific to BPD https://www.discoverbooks.com/How-to-Improve-Your-Marriage-Without-Talking-Abou-p/0767923189.htm?gclid=CjwKCAjwpIjZBRBsEiwA0TN1r10g_0__dzNnZhk6EjGUET4hOdaJzWjuqgatXcr_WZWo42rltL0IUxoCYOwQAvD_BwE

I agree with enabler in that, I don't think it is a fair expectation for your wife to be involved in your medical care. I think it is nice if the spouse is willing to help- like drive someone to a procedure where you are given sedatives and can't drive, and also to be informed, but to actually make it their responsibility, I don't think that's a realistic explanation for someone with BPD.  She may not even be willing to drive you, and that's when you ask friends, or even your older kids if they are home.

All the marriage books say that it is good for couples to have things in common like religion, culture, and I think in general that is true. However, I have seen some marriages between people that are different religions, races, cultures and they do well and others who are similar and don't. I've come to believe that the ability to communicate and work things out is probably more important than similarities in what makes a marriage work. I still think it is easier if couples can be on the same page about religion, holidays celebrated, how to raise the kids, but I've also seen couples work out situations that I didn't think could be worked out.

Just as if a democrat married a republican, could you allow her the space to think what she thinks. You two need to be aligned on basic actions together, but belief is so personal. It may not be something you agree with, but she is who she is.

[Red5]

... ."what's wrong"... .It took a lot of effort to not tell her exactly.

I was there just last evening myself... .

I didn't say that... .but she clearly understands there is a lot of conflict and "withdrawal" in me.

... ."blood in the water"

She has heard my thoughts before and rejected them... .so... .how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again.

In these scenarios, .last night it was "full operational"... .I tried to explain why... ."JADE.lite"... .and as expected, to no avail, I took the wave off, and came in from another "angle"... .still, not joy, .she only seemed to become more un-glued, up-set, sands any common sense whatsoever... .then the third try, same results.

She got drunk and went to bed, .I sat in the dark and "reflected"... .then I went into the office and read a book till past midnight... .then this morning, the entire evolution (to my surprise... .) had been re-written, and re-issued as a completely different story version of the previous nights events... .so I tried again, .and she; (u/BPDw), .started to JADE me!... .you see, even when met with the absolute facts of the matter, as it pertains to the disagreement, fight, dysregulation... .BPD ALWAYS try's to have the last word, to win at any cost, to include the "truth of the matter"... .its quite the survival instinct.

"how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again"... .a moving target, and when you get a good idea about it, then she moves the target again... .no joy,

Red5
 

[formflier]

FF, I think you should be grateful that Mrs FF is not attempting to pollute your health plans, yes

Yeah... she has interfered before and honestly for a while there has been little interference.

Many of my "daily activities" are quite different now from several years ago.  It's most likely that those activities are permanently different.

I get it that from a certain point of view... someone that takes at least one "luxurious" hot jetted tub bath a day seems like a good life, there are days I take a couple to manage pain so I can avoid opiods...

Sleep hygiene is pretty onerous for me...

Rather than telling me and my children... .and others that I do this stuff because I'm lazy... she could actually be helpful... which could result in more sleep and less pain episodes.

So... according to her my stuff "isn't real" (well... I really can't explain what or how she actually thinks) but being helpful in areas doctors believe would be helpful isn't something she's up for... at lest with any sort of consistency.

FF

[Notwendy]

 FF- a physical need for care could be seen through victim perspective. There can't be another victim and she's taken that spot. You are either a rescuer- considering her needs and feelings or a persecutor if you expect her to accommodate your physical pain.

I observed this with my parents.  My father was elderly and gravely ill. It was obvious to anyone who saw him that his physical limitations were due to illness. Yet BPD mom ( who also has some paranoia) was conviced he was not doing things she thought he should do on purpose. It infuriated her when we rallied around him to help. This meant she wasn't the center of attention. If I made him a meal she'd say " you are spoiling your father" . He was not able to do this for himself but she could not see it.

On a milder but similar pattern- I have posted before that I had some difficulty with nausea when pregnant. My H was convinced I was purposely withholding affection and sex. I assumed he could see I was having a difficult - but temporary rough time but he didn't.

Your wife does some things well. She's a good teacher- and I think a good mother most of the time. Even a mother who does not have a disorder might feel overwhelmed sometimes with 8 kids. But helping you with physical issues could be beyond her. Her own painful feelings are more than she can handle and she probably can't see your physical pain well. It's important that you continue to take care of your needs. Expecting her to help could be unrealistic.

[formflier]

I get that... and agree generally with your assessment.

I suppose that if she would avoid doing things that were unhelpful... as in do less work in some cases... .but whatever.

She will do what she does

FF

[snowglobe]

@Formflier,
I’m sorry you aren’t getting support or understanding of your condition from your wife. Us moms, take it for granted, the fact that we are actually able to put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes, Even if temporary. Pain, is a subjective matter. Unless you are bleeding profusely, or have a foreign object sticking out from your body, your wife will unlikely “feel” or sympathize with your pain. BPD’s are very behavioural that way, psychology lingo. They only process the visual cues, such as agape mouth twisted might send her a signal that you are in pain. Frankly, throughout my 18 year marriage I’ve been kicked in my gut, speaking figuratively, to the point that I never complain, unless I need a ride to the hospital. Years of psychological stress resulted in IBD for me, and related consequences of the disorder. I don’t dare to even mention it, cause it interferes with his plans for me. I don’t complain of pain, or other symptoms because he finds it unattractive. In a perfect world your wife would understand and try to manage and minimize your pain, so you can be healthy and productive for your family. It’s not the case, so adjusting your expectations would be more therapeutic. Tell us, tell your close friends that follow your health journey. I have one friend who remembers all of my appointments and medications I was ever prescribed. This fact alone aliviates my worries and pains so much so that I feel better. Remember, your wife’s pain was probably never acknowledged and or validated. She is likely getting irritated and furious when you even hint of your pain.

[Cat Familiar]

To me, not having compassion for physical limitations and suggesting that having them is due to a deficit in prayer or holiness, is yet another example of BPD black and white thinking. I would doubt that she applies this type of thinking to her own frailties, disabilities and illnesses, yet for you, FF, she holds you personally and spiritually accountable for all the injuries and disabilities you've received due to your military service. Somehow, in her mind, she can justify that these injuries would all go away if you just prayed enough.

The two of you have a huge gap in your worldviews and anything that doesn't fit with her paradigm is easily dismissed as ''being less Christian" or something similar.

[Enabler]

In my W FOO, sickness and injury is somewhat used as a transactional commodity to get attention and a weird version of love. My W is always a bit under the weather and got some kind of ailment or other especially when interacting with her mother. In her FOO sympathy = love... .and love is not really expressed in any other way. This has led her IMHO to be a bit of a hypochondriac, and she would rarely tell you she's tip top. It's her way of extracting love out of people, because that's what she knows and what works in her FOO.

I'm not quite sure how the next bit works but I think sympathy is felt as a negative emotion and almost like 'weird Love' is flowing the wrong way, i.e. her to me, rather than me to her. This leads to her being a bit 'Billy 2 Sh!ts' (victim) about health in general, if you have a cold, she got pneumonia. So, illness tends to be used in a bit of a manipulative way.

I guess we all typically judge each other by our own standards, if I were to have constantly used sickness as a way to get attention and 'weird love', why would I not think that other people would also act in a similar way.

FF, I don't know if there are any parallels with your situation but I suspect as Notwendy points out, there ain't enough room for 2 victims in this relationship and she's refusing to budge. You're just milking it / faking it because... .well... .that's the kind of manipulative things she would do. The religious mumble and ridicule is just noise and smoke screen to otherwise discredit your longer than acceptable stay in the victim position... .GET OFF, THIS IS MY SPOT AND I NEED THE 'WEIRD LOVE'.

[Notwendy]

Enabler, I think you have mentioned something significant- projection. If they manipulate others, they assume we are doing that too.

[formflier]

So the comment about "weird love" and physical issues reminded me of an early incident that should have been a   .  I did remember it was odd.

So... .my wife is the only "unaugmented" female in her family (no boob job).

None of them... .and I mean none of them want to talk about their boob job, yet they ALL criticize the other women for doing it.  

So... ."everyone" knew that her Mom (my MIL) was going to get one years ago.  There was an "obvious" and "public" effort to "keep it a secret" from my wife.  Which my wife kinda "eyerolled" at and played along with.

I'm a curious guy so I pointed out the oddness of this and my wife agreed... .and said that how it worked was that she and others in the family would receive a phone call saying "so and so is in the hospital" and since it was a surprise (supposedly) people would rush to her side and express their grief and concern and help speed her recovery (how I wish I were making this up).

So... .her Mom goes into the hospital and after surgery (yes... surgery for the boob job)... .MIL calls my wife and I just happened to be sitting next to her.  MIL sounded like on deathbed... .in so much pain... .ohhhh... .I'm  "hospitalized".  So... my wife sort of played along and then asked directly what it was for... ."how could you ask such a thing"  (so... .I'm in the hospital... .but I can't tell you why... sympathize with me anyway)

So... .my wife expressed confidence in the doctors... .wished her Mom well... .and ended the phone call.

Yeah... .she was painted black for a while and I remember her being pissed for a while (this was before BPDish symptoms showed in our r/s) about her Mom so obviously trying to manipulate her.

Then... .she and her sister would laugh about her Mom's attempts to manipulate.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF - that's a weird one!

Imagine pretending she didn't get one if she was noticeably different after the surgery. Like the elephant in the room. Could be a good script for a sitcom. And the teenagers giggling at each other ( did Grandma... .?).

[formflier]

FF - that's a weird one!

Imagine pretending she didn't get one if she was noticeably different after the surgery. Like the elephant in the room. Could be a good script for a sitcom. And the teenagers giggling at each other ( did Grandma... .?).

Umm... .she is/was noticeably different and they all pretend nothing is different... .it's that obvious thing that nobody can talk about... .yet we can talk about that obvious thing we can't talk about for the other women (basically... whoever is not there gets talked about)

So... .I'll hijack my own thread and all the women here can marvel at the "sensitivity" of a 20/30 something FF.  I get it that the boob job thing can be "thing" for some women.

And... .with all of the other women getting them... .of course it came up in our marriage.  

Backstory:  When I say they all pretend not to have them... .I mean if there was swim event or summer outing they wear far more modest clothes and swimwear or will defer to wear a swimsuit all together (I'll do it next time).

So... .in my mind... .you spend all the $$ on these things and then hide them?  (didn't make sense to me)

So... my wife brings up the topic and I said I liked her the way she is (my wife is gorgeous and well proportioned)... .yet if she wanted them I'd pay for them as long as I "picked them out" (size) and picked out her swim suits (no hiding).

Of course I "talked this out" with all of my Naval Aviator buddies (a very helpful and interested group I must say)... .and the consensus was that if I was going to pay for them... .my wife and i should be "proud" of them.

    Yeah... .there is a recipe for improving a marriage.  

Well... .she never got them done and honestly I think she is now glad.  Guess what... .all... .and I mean all of "them" have had back problems and several have had back surgeries.   No... .there were no reduction surgeries.

FF

[Enabler]

Back in university W & I lived in a house share with 5 others. We'd do the weekly call back to our parents. I could have been stabbed, run over and failed all my exams but still put a smile and happy voice on for Mum who really didn't need/want to think of me having a rough time several hundred miles away... .I guess this was pretty dysfunctional in it's lack of honesty, that said, Uni was on the whole fun so I had little to grumble about if I were to be honest anyway.

W would put on this voice on the phone to MIL, downtrodden, depressive & sometimes downright miserable. She'd hardly give her Mum and Dad the impression that she was surviving let alone give them anywhere near the truth that life was good, she was having fun and everything was dandy. Every week I would sit there in amazement at how someone could be in a great mood not 2 seconds before the call and then sound like she was near death as soon as the call started. I get it now, MIL likes to pity people... .and pity is another form of 'weird love'. MIL can't be happy for someones fortune as that just triggers her feelings of envy and disdain for other peoples joy. If you want 'weird love' from your Mum who's like this, you have to offer her something to pity!

When W told MIL about expecting child #3 she reacted with almost contempt, throwing negative after negative at her about 'how will you cope?'.

'Weird Love' is hard to fathom. I believe it then becomes triggering for pwBPD, in as much as they are so used to families extracting 'weird love' in dysfunctional ways that when it comes to a genuine request for actual support and intimate love it's natural for them to feel like you're "just like the others".

[babyducks]

Good Morning FF,

I am going to answer your post as if you were on the "bettering board", not on "just tolerating it".

... .but she clearly understands there is a lot of conflict and "withdrawal" in me.

This was my experience.    I'm not saying it is going to be yours.

My partner and I never learned to successfully communicate.    That more than anything else doomed the relationship.    Communications (about anything)  where contentious, argumentative,  factious, combative.    I did learn the tools here about avoiding JADE, and circular arguments, and they worked well.    I learned to not invalidate as much.    That was helpful.

In the last months of my relationship, there was a lot of life stress.    Moving households.   Her health insurance changed and her medication was scrambled up.   there was the infamous problem with the cat, which is too much to go into here.   that would have been taxing on any couple.  but on one who could not communicate it was the beginning of the end.

I assumed (quite incorrectly) that we could go on, continue not communicating for a lot longer,  that it would not have serious impacts, that eventually this would become the new normal.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Not being able to communicate in a free and friendly fashion bent the trajectory of the relationship until it broke.   Relationships do not stay static, they are always moving in one direction or another.

The advice I got here (from NotWendy - thank you) was to attempt to open lines of communication.   to improve my ability to handle, cope with, deflect the more heated aspects of my partners communication style, knowing that she would always over express whatever emotion she was experiencing.     I missed the ball on that.    I was not able to accept that communicating with her would always involve some level of intense effort and some level of heated rhetoric.   

One of the last conversations we had, we were sitting on the sofa and she said 'you seem really down in the dumps'.   Yes I was.  very down in the dumps.   She said 'do you want to talk about it?'.    and I said 'no'.    Truthfully I didn't want to even think about facing another argument with her.   I didn't have the energy for another lap around the loop of vehement feelings.   as I look back with 20/20 hindsight that was the beginning of the end.

... .so... .how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again.

This, I think, depends on which way you want to go.    Doing nothing different will get you more of the same and the trajectory will continue to bend on it's current course.   passing on opportunities to connect means they will happen less frequently.   she will become further entrenched in her positions, you in yours.    I suspect the answer to 'how do I figure out if there is ever a time to share them again' lies in what you want, how much energy you can reasonably devote to communicating with some one who has poor reality testing, how much you can improve your own communication skills,  I know I don't have to tell you that communicating with some one mentally ill is a whoole different level of communicating.    And if you can manage your own natural reaction of recoiling when attacked during a conversation.     


'ducks

[Harley Quinn]

Hi FF,

I just wanted to join to say that I too have an invisible condition which can be very frustrating in the way it's received - or forgotten, disbelieved, ignored or minimised by others.  Ironically my exBPDbf was very empathetic when I was having a severe episode with my pain and did all he could to help me, but at other times when I seemed to be outwardly 'functioning' pretty normally, despite the continual pain going on inside, he could be more than dismissive or at least forget that it is a factor for me in my coping with daily life.  He certainly heaped it on at those times.
 It's hurtful that you're not being considered in the way you feel you need to be in order to help you to manage your pain and I can relate to that. 

In fact, it has been my mother whom I've had the most difficulty coming to terms with when it came to her lack of understanding.  Before she had a stroke she was a huge support and afterwards she has become a changed person, who no longer acknowledges that anyone else may be struggling at all.  I put on a brave face and don't bring up my condition unless it's completely out of control but it's hard that someone who is supposed to care about you can show so little actual care. 

Acceptance has been the key for me.  She is not able to look past herself now and her own difficulties.  I can understand how awful that must be for her and I feel bad that she is so consumed by those difficulties yet she won't help herself either.  It's likely that in her shoes and without additional emotional support I wouldn't cope much better, so I released my expectations of her and it eased my frustrations and upset in a big way.  No more do I cry when I put the phone down after she can't fathom what's wrong with me.  I take care of my own needs and find support that I need elsewhere.  What can you do to ensure your needs are met?  What could you change at home to facilitate your self care?

Enabler, I really like your description of the 'weird love'!  It explains a lot!

Love and light x