No longer in love. What does want? [Discussion of Christian Beliefs]

[SamwizeGamgee]

And please, please understand I mean no disrespect to another's church, belief, religion, or any other statement or action.  I'm just kind of openly sharing my thoughts.  I support organized religion and the sanctity of marriage.

And although it sounds like I am pro-divorce, I am still married, at least partly due to my learned church behaviors.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Jackie59 and SamwizeGamgee,

Samwize, I think more or less anything goes on this thread as long as you basically subscribe to Christian beliefs and aren't trying to tell us all we are sky-fairy-following deluded idiots (hence the thread title] so I shouldn't worry. You raised a point I came back on to ask Jackie59 about when you said
I think we all have to face whether it's an external or internal reason that we eschew divorce.

- Jackie59, you said in your original post that you were scared God doesn't want you to leave, despite your obvious suffering. Are you able to share on here why exactly that is? I assume as a Baptist you believe "once saved, always saved", so your remaining in the marriage or leaving it (even if there is a possibility that that choice is sinful) isn't a condition for your own personal salvation. Is there some other consequence that you are afraid of if you make the choice to leave and/or if that turns out to be the wrong choice scripturally? Is that fear based on some knowledge you have and/or on some feelings you have? You don't have to discuss that if you don't want to of course, but it might get you some relevant advice to help you put aside the issue of fear and not let it cloud your thinking.

[Skip]

Church - a hall or building, leadership, a priest, teacher, or minister, written or colloquial laws, canon, dogma, authority, financial reserves, membership, fellowship, communion, organization, ordinances.  You go to church.

Religion - spirituality, beliefs, traditions, teachings, connection and direction with a higher being.  You have religion.

Speaking to the Jackie59 who is Baptist / Protestant.

Isn't religion the belief in and worship of supreme power? For a Baptist, isn't a large part of this is living a life than honors God as has been described in the Bible? For a Protestant, the Bible is the word, not the church. Since the Protestant Reformation in 16th-century, their is no human deity - the role the Protestant church plays is to provide a place to worship and a vehicle to serve. One of the most important aspects of a Protestant church are Bible studies and small groups where peers get together (without church leadership) to help each other understand what living a honorable life is all about.

Aren't we all sinners (no one of us lives up to the high standards of the bible) and aren't we all forgiven when we fall? And when we get up, don't we take inventory and try to live a more biblical life?

I'm divorced. I feel I did not honor God with my marriage. I sinned.  I found the person I married and I married her, I played a roll in the failing of the relationship. I had many choices that I could and should have made better.  I feel ashamed of it. I've suffered because of it (not now). I learned a lot from it. I accept God's forgiveness. I continue to work on living a life the more honors God than that phase of my life did.

I own it. The one thing I don't do is justify it.

Jackie59, I encourage you to pray on this and discern the right direction to the best of your ability. Make the best choice that you can. God will forgive you even if it was the most perfect choice. We will support you, too. No one here will judge you.

SamwizeGamgee

From your words, I assume that you belong to a church with human deity - like the Catholic Church. I certainly understand your feelings about having an organization tell you what is right and wrong. It is one reason I left the Catholic Church for a Protestant Church.  

I rely on what I believe to be what the bible says, but I depend heavily on others to help me understand it. I needed help with 15th Century British literature in college, too. Mentors and accountability partners are a big part of my life - people who warn me if they think I am telling myself what I want to hear - as well as respect my words when I reflect back on their actions.

This is a good thread.



 

[formflier]

I think we all have to face whether it's an external or internal reason that we eschew divorce.

 

Certainly over time, the external reasons become internalized.  In this instance, over time you will most likely adopt the external beliefs as a matter of faith or belief.

That doesn't mean they can't change.  It also doesn't mean they shouldn't change... or that they should.

The longer they have been held, it should surprise anyone that it takes longer for beliefs to change.

I believe that God uses life events to challenge and mature us all.  So, something that we believed (such as you can never divorce) is not being challenged.  Either you will stay in your belief or modify it.  Either way I believe you will come out of this process a more mature person.

Thoughts?

FF

[Waddams]

Porneia (porne, pornos) is very much like the word "whore"... .literally, both refer to prostitutes. Metaphorically it's a broad derogatory term that even extends to greedy business practices.

There at linguists that argue the broader metaphorical use existed at the time.   

So what was Jesus message? Was he prone to speak with this style (did the writers and copiers of the bible write with this style)?

It's an interesting observation. Thanks.

There's room for each of us to make our own mind, but in my mind, I believe Jesus was referring to a broader metaphorical use that goes beyond sexual perversion.  I believe that broader metaphorical use does describe the horrible circumstances we can end up in when married to a pwPD.  I believe if they just won't stop hurting or abusing their spouse, their spouse is not only biblically justified in leaving and divorcing, but in a way, if spouse stays, they are choosing to enable a situation in which the pwPD will continue to sin against both their spouse and God.  So in staying, you are choosing to stay and participate in a pwPD's sin.  By leaving, you are removing yourself and not participating anymore, which to me, is better obviously.

We still need to seek to find forgiveness for them in our hearts, we need to not retaliate and hate, we need to do our best to love them from a safe distance, but we also need to protect ourselves and not participate in or enable their pattern of sin.

I'll reiterate - it's my personal belief provided at request of the original poster and for contribution to the discussion for everyone else.  Others may disagree and that's fine.  

[Skip]

And please, please understand I mean no disrespect to another's church, belief, religion, or any other statement or action. 

I think we all learn in this type of thread - especially because of the diversity of views.

I'll reiterate - it's my personal belief provided at request of the original poster and for contribution to the discussion for everyone else.  Others may disagree and that's fine.  

As are all of our comments here. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

This thread has been great.  I hope everyone benefits.

In the year past, I had put to rest my inner conflict with what to tell God about my failing marriage.  I believe He loves me, and just like I got myself into the mess, I can decide to get out of it.  I mostly cope with the inner conflict by setting it aside. 
Currently, I have put to rest the question of divorce for logistics and financials.  And my primary reason to stay married is that my wife would go from functional to non-functional uBPD with a divorce. 

However, I've been nicely distracted with life and status quo.  This thread has stirred up deeper questions.  Excellent points have been made.  Thank you all!
It brings to mind a faint feeling I had a while back.  I felt that I was not only allowed (in the eyes of God) to divorce, but compelled to stand up and free myself and the kids - at least by setting an example on how to face emotional abuse - even if subtle and well-hidden.  Nod to Waddams for pointing out a perspective of forgiving, but then preventing abuse.  I had forgotten that spirit, on my "death row" of marriage.

[Notwendy]

Since the discussion is open to different views, I would like to comment on an idea another poster mentioned, that non Christians might find it easier to divorce under unreasonable circumstances.

There are many reasons besides religion that someone would find it hard to leave such types of relationships, even in difficult, possibly abusive situations. There are also reasons someone would get into these relationships and continue despite warning signs. In addition, there are many lessons and ways to reduce the drama and improve these relationships. This does not mean they are necessarily viable. Improvement may not lead to an acceptable situation, but it might.

I agree it is important to consider the religious aspect if this is central to a person's beliefs. However, it also doesn't mean that one is expected to simply endure suffering, not have boundaries, or not look at their part in the relationship to see where they may make a difference in themselves.

I attend 12 step co-dependency groups and ACA groups. They are open to all. The group includes members of a wide variety of religions, including atheists and agnostics. Some are devout Christians. Some are married, single, divorced. All are dealing with some similar patterns in relationship dysfunction and all are seeking to work on themselves to improve these dynamics.

We don't post run or stay messages on this board. Both choices- to stay or to divorce are not easy decisions. Sometimes one or the other is the best solution, and each person needs to reach his/her own conclusion considering their personal circumstances. From what I have read, members don't jump to divorce- it is a last resort after working to improve the situation to the best of their abilities.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Notwendy,

Do you mean where I mentioned that none of us would have any trouble getting a civil divorce for unreasonable behavior (or similar words)? If so, yes, I agree with what you're saying, and I did wonder about putting a caveat there. I meant that statement just in the context of rights, and how we as a Christian in a specific marital situation can be unsure whether we actually do have the objective right to a divorce or think that we do not (based on Scripture and church teaching), where a non-Christian in the exact same marital situation would be sure that they do have the objective right to a divorce (based on the secular law and general standards of behavior). I agree completely that the Christian and the non-Christian could both have many other reasons why they choose to stay and/or find it hard to leave, in spite of any objective judgement they have made about whether they have a right to leave if they choose.

BetterLanes

[Notwendy]

Yes, I got the sense that you meant it would be easier to consider divorce without the religious aspect but considering the variety of backgrounds on this board and in my 12 step groups, the patterns of dysfunction in relationships are similar regardless of backgrounds. Other influences such as family of origin, enabling or co-dependent behaviors also may make it difficult to leave a dysfunctional relationship and also contribute to the dynamics of one. These factors can be worked on - whether someone is in a relationship or not, or chooses to stay or not.

[Jackie59]

Thank you so much to everyone who has written. It has really given me a lot to think about.

[Skip]

This general psychology aspects or this topic have been continued here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326147

[formflier]

Jackie59,

Perhaps you are enabling.  Let's look at this from a Christian point of view and what God has instructed us to do in Ephesians 5.  Read the entire thing a few times to understand context.

Then focus on 12-14. 

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said:

“Wake up, sleeper,
    rise from the dead,
    and Christ will shine on you.”

If you "shined the light" on her behavior... .then I would reject any worry about "enabling".  If you have "joined with her" in keeping infidelity... .especially "un-reconciled" infidelity secret... .then perhaps you are enabling.

Again... please read the entire thing and make sure you are seeing context.  What I see is that God doesn't call us to "Force" others to change... .in this case our spouse.  I see God calling us to "shine a light" on sin, which I would see as "bringing in others" should she not repent and change her ways when you "confront" her.  (See Matthew for discipline process) .

FF

[Thrive]

I am an Evangelical Christian, and I will give you my two cents:
I mean this to be helpful:

God did not put you on this planet to be abused. 

If you offered a child of yours up to an abusive person, you would be held accountable of having assisted in their abuse.  God values you as much as he would value your child.  If you offer yourself up for abuse, God takes that very seriously.
Your wife has a free will, just as anyone does, and when your wife abuses you, she chooses to step out of God's will by making that choice.  Just as you would be stepping out of God's will if you made the choice to abuse her.  Please understand, I do not mean standing up for yourself or becoming angry over mistreatment--that is not abuse.

What I see from Scripture is God does not accept abuse, and he stands besides those who are being harmed.
 
1 Corinthians 3:16, 17
Do you not know you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him.  For God's temple is Holy, and you are that temple.
 
Psalm 103:6 ESV
The Lord works righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed.

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Psalm 18:48 ESV
Who delivered me from my enemies; yes, you exalted me above those who rose against me; you rescued me from the man of violence.

Psalm 9:9 ESV
The Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble.

Matthew 15:18-20 ESV
But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person.

And from The Message translation:
Isaiah 43.1-4
Don't be afriad, I've redeemed you.
I've called your name. You're mine.
When you're in over your head, I'll be there with you.
When you're in rough waters, you will not go down.
When you're between a rock and a hard place,
It won't be a dead end.
Because I am God, your personal God,
The Holy of Isreal, your Savior.
I paid a huge price for you:
all of Egypt, with rich Cush and Seba thrown in!
That's how much you mean to me!
That's how much I love you!
I'd sell the whole world to get you back,
trade the creation for you.

[ILuvABorderline]

I am still with my husband because I don’t believe God has instructed me to leave him. After the worst “episode “ that has occurred last Sunday I realize that I don’t believe I’ll ever have the strength or the courage to leave on my own. I prayed and told God that if He wanted me to leave He would have to “do it for me” because I couldn’t. I don’t have fluffy feelings of love for my husband but I do love him, if that makes sense. Lovey dovey feelings come and go. I have chosen to love my husband even if there is always “sickness” and “worse.” Not sure if I’ve helped. At least you know there is someone in your same boat. My husband is also VERY religious which complicates things even further.