Sent her a text after 9 weeks Need advice on how to reconnect in a constructive way.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well for better or worse the text is sent. Couldn't do the jokey-nothing-ever-happened-thing, referenced a walk we took in the park basically:

Walking in the Park
Beautiful Day
It made me think of you
I hope you are well.

[1stTimer]

Well for better or worse the text is sent. Couldn't do the jokey-nothing-ever-happened-thing, referenced a walk we took in the park basically:

Walking in the Park
Beautiful Day
It made me think of you
I hope you are well.

[1stTimer]

Well actually 8 Weeks today.  30 days since her reply to the 'nice note' as she called it.

No reply to text yet (1 hour?) but that is not so surprising, I guess even if she WANTED to she would not just punch out a reply which would make her seem desperate.  I would not. Now I guess patience. Let this sit and germinate. Either she has moved on and deleted this or it will resonate with her, make her think, and reply in her own good time. I've done what I can.

[1stTimer]

Wowwwww.

Got a reply, 90 minutes

"Hi thank you and I hope you are well too such a nice day talk to you later?"

Thoughts. Besides the elephant that just stepped off my chest?

It is the 'talk to you later?' part that really blows me away. Because the first part was friendly and nice but the second especially with the ? seems to be a wide open door? Am I just looking for things here?

I have not replied as I think my reply is pretty critical.  I was thinking of "Yes I love you too I always have and you are forgiven for everything baby!" but that was the old me

Skip: Is there anything to my starting a thread in the Bettering Section about my reaching out and seeing where that goes?

Ok here is my actual thought for reply "Anytime you want" Or does that put the ball in her court? Being of active mind I realize I have not heard her so happy in a long time so I wonder: is it from hearing me or is she happy in love?

[1stTimer]

I guess I can be either proactive "yes how about datetime" but I find that these sit best with me:

"I would like that"

or

"Looking forward to it "

[Skip]

"Looking forward to it

"Yes. Soon."

 Be cool, confident.

I would open a thread on Bettering on how change the dynamics of your relationship - going back with the same "gameface" will likely end in the same place.

Nothing changes without changes.

[1stTimer]

I got this too late, send my 'that would be nice'. oh well. if that breaks it it wasn't meant to be. I do like yours though man.

I did open a thread and covered how my first foray here was a lot of support for how bad I was treated and such and it wasn't until I took the time (with the help of a nameless moderator) to take a look at how the scenario looked to her I made any progress.

It will be a tough balance now if we meet; Cool, confident, and understanding vs hand-wringing apologetic.

I do really think her reply was interesting. It was very quick, very happy and it wasnt "talk soon" or "talk to you later" but "talk to you later?" which to me is an entirely different statement. Instead of 'I'lll get in touch some time or not' it seemed like 'is our dialog open?'

Anyway again my hope is not happy cause in love and couldnt care less I replied cause it doesnt trigger her vs happy I reached out, reached out immediatly and wants to talk. I'll keep an open mind and heart. at the very very least if I can find a way we both move on w/o rancor and even remain friends that would be a step-up from how we left it.

[1stTimer]

Funny, since I had not texted in months and this is the first I received it picks up right from the day she wanted to meet after her therapist to 'discuss a few things before friday' (which turned out to be getting me to confirm I really WAS asking). Anyway the nice part which triggers what i remembered was so nice was I texted 'let's meet at Cafe X, you know 'Our Place'' and she texted 'I love the sound of that'.  That is 9 weeks ago man.

[Shawnlam]

Wowwwww.

Got a reply, 90 minutes

"Hi thank you and I hope you are well too such a nice day talk to you later?"

Thoughts. Besides the elephant that just stepped off my chest?

It is the 'talk to you later?' part that really blows me away. Because the first part was friendly and nice but the second especially with the ? seems to be a wide open door? Am I just looking for things here?

I have not replied as I think my reply is pretty critical.  I was thinking of "Yes I love you too I always have and you are forgiven for everything baby!" but that was the old me

Skip: Is there anything to my starting a thread in the Bettering Section about my reaching out and seeing where that goes?

Ok here is my actual thought for reply "Anytime you want" Or does that put the ball in her court? Being of active mind I realize I have not heard her so happy in a long time so I wonder: is it from hearing me or is she happy in love?

You are reading way too much into an equal response to your initial text to be honest .The best thing to do now (in my opinion) is let things sit and see if she comes to you in awhile... .could take days or weeks but going too strong will push her further away that’s my two cents .

[1stTimer]

I get you. I am on the fence on that though. I did say 'that would be nice' so now I can either, as you say, sit on it, or reach out for a meet.

I do however think the 'talk to you later?' is either conscious or subconscious desire/offer to open dialog as an equal dialog would have been "i thank you and I hope you are well too such a nice day". Which I'd not have replied to at all and 100% sat on. Even 'talk to you later'. I know her pretty well and the ? at the end is what it seems like; a question. The question for me though is do I leave 'that would be nice' as an 'ok then reach out when you are ready' or reach out.

Here's the thing on the larger story; my guess is she was highly doubtful of the sincerity or at least motivation of my finally 'coming around'. I think I confirmed that for here with my 'thanks for opening my heart I'm going to go date' (repeated for all intents and purposes in my goodbye/love letter to her) again so for all she knows that is why I've been incommunicado. In other words waiting for her to reach out might be just replaying the whole dynamic that hurt us; she moves to me, I sit and wait.

You are reading way too much into an equal response to your initial text to be honest .The best thing to do now (in my opinion) is let things sit and see if she comes to you in awhile... .could take days or weeks but going too strong will push her further away that’s my two cents .

[Skip]

she was highly doubtful of the sincerity or at least motivation of my finally 'coming around'. I think I confirmed that for here with my 'thanks for opening my heart I'm going to go date... .

I think shawnlam is right. Don't get too far over your skis.  

She said she wanted to be courted. Go there. Treat this a new relationship startup. At leat for a while. Trying to dive back to where you were, seal the deal on a relationship, air your differences in not a good restarting point.

Court her like a new women in your life. Read her cues carefully and don't get ahead of yourself.

If this was someone new, you just got the go ahead to take an action. Chose it wisely.

[1stTimer]

So you are saying to go back to NC now? Leave the 'that would be nice' and make her come to me? Doesn't that seem like exactly where this all started and if I were to reboot I'd want to be the one to reach out?

I think shawnlam is right. Don't get too far over your skis.  

She said she wanted to be courted. Go there. Treat this a new relationship startup. At leat for a while. Trying to dive back to where you were, seal the deal on a relationship, air your differences in not a good restarting point.

Court her like a new women in your life. Read her cues carefully and don't get ahead of yourself.

If this was someone new, you just got the go ahead to take an action. Chose wisely.

[1stTimer]

Well she just reach out. Wants to know if I want to meet at 'our' Wine Bar (where me met). At... .noon? Not last night? The day after I reach out to her after basically two months? Not liking the upcoming conversation very much but will go in with an open mind. My guess: she is getting married or did and wants to let me know before I start anything. But why at the place we met? Man give me the good old days of my normal women it was much much easier.

[Skip]

So you are saying to go back to NC now?

Is that how you would court someone you were newly interested in?  Of course not!

You've got a date, now.  Show up like a confident, strong man. Be charming ... .listen to her, keep your wounds here (don't bring it up with her no matter what), let her know you are listening, don't solve, listen.

Check out that video on listening with empathy.  Check out the video on "don't invalidate. What do you see there different than what you have been doing.

[1stTimer]

No, hardly, you just said you agreed with the prior post so wanted to make sure you just meant 'not reading too much' vs 'let her approach you'.

I did in fact read the empathy page, great stuff. I liked how it said everyone things they are more empathetic than they are.  As an aside I think most people think this when they sympathzie with people in similar situations and don't get the difference. However the Empathy Page is really great stuff for anyone who wants to be empathetic and has some great tools to add. I liked about NOT relating it to your own experiences (even though this seems empathetic at first) BUT doing so internally. Really great stuff. I did read invalidating too.

I will not bring up my hurt but should I apologize for the things I've realized hurt her, or not unless she gives me some indication I should (she brings it up etc).

Believe it or not even though it does not come through on this board as I came her spun out of control I do show up confident, strong and charming. Clearly my behavior at the end made her wonder about that as she even said something like 'are you sure you are really an alpha type A man? I'm not sure anymore'. I never ever claimed to be so clearly she was saying 'you started out that way and I've lost confidence in that part of you'. So yeah showing up with (real) empathy and validation skills to get me back to what she fell for is a good idea.

I'm still somewhat concerned about why she is moving so fast to meet and talk after two months of silence from me but I'll shelve that s*** too for now.

Is that how you would court someone you were newly interested in?  Of course not!

You've got a date, now.  Show up like a confident, strong man. Be charming ... .listen to her, keep your wounds here (don't bring it up with her no matter what), let her know you are listening, don't solve, listen.

Check out that video on listening with empathy.  Check out the video on "don't invalidate. What do you see there different than what you have been doing.

[1stTimer]

Updates: After she reached out the very next day at noon and said 'do you want to meet at (the place we first met) soon?' and I replied, unsure of is she meant e.g. lunch then 'Sure. Do you mean soon like lunch now or soon this week?' (this so I could know whether to head uptown or not). No reply. Today just took bull by horns wrote letter 'reflecting the first nice one 'And another nice day. Does Thursday at 7:30pm work for you'. No reply.

My guess is her mom and sis b****-slapped her for asking ME out the moment I broke NC after two months. Because this is what she did when she met: pursued me. And they kept trying to turn it into me courting her but it was too late. So if she impulsively and happily asked me to meet her at 'our place' and they found out I'm sure they'd say no make him work for it this time.

Is that how you would court someone you were newly interested in?  Of course not!

There is a limit to what I'm willing to do here with this 'narrative' Skip. I'm totally at peace with letting go of any need for her to explain, apologize or otherwise make me feel good/better about what happened, despite her actions being objectively manipulative and hurtful. I got instead the best way to move forward was to understand and acknowledge her hurt and how my behavior contributed to it.

That does not mean I am going to pretend I screwed up our relationship and need to make amends and start from scratch. If going back and 'relitigating' what happened at the end makes no sense, then going way back to the beginning when she liked me and said "I like you you should pursue me" (I did not) and giving her what she wants; a false narrative is not happening either. A large part of our dynamic is precisely that she fell for me, pursued me, and eventually won me over due to her support, personality, connection, affection etc. The part where I messed up was not acknowledging that and especially when I started to reciprocate. So if there is any 'going back' I'm willing to go there. But to re-write this whole thing and treat her like a new girl I met who I'm trying to win over and court while she dates other men and we all compete for her attention is simply not happening. I don't like that dynamic in general, and I think in this case even it were 'successful' would predicate a relationship on an entirely manufactured and false premise AND false power dynamic.

I say all this since it appears, at least from the one day of sudden silence, that she is leaning towards the same 'solution' you are; he messed up let him win me back and court me and I'll play hard to get, play him off other men, and I'll get what I wanted when I met him; him pursuing me until I 'let' him win me. So he gets the grand prize of providing for and protecting me forever.  I'm simply not going there.

I will go to my acknowledging where I let her down and then seeing if we are both willing to pick up where we left off, with her AND I understanding I am fully and equally engaged in a relationship and hopefully a future together.

Let's see if there are replies. I'm guessing she is waiting for her Tuesday therapy session because clearly she replied the first time and with the invite w/o consulting anyone and made the same 'mistake' she did the first time. Me, I don't see it as a mistake, I love that she reached out and wanted to see me, it makes me want her more not less. I do NOT respond well to 'hard to get' never did, I've left more than one woman behind wondering why I never followed through. I am turned on by connection and interest not by 'challenge' and disinterest.

[Shawnlam]

Updates: After she reached out the very next day at noon and said 'do you want to meet at (the place we first met) soon?' and I replied, unsure of is she meant e.g. lunch then 'Sure. Do you mean soon like lunch now or soon this week?' (this so I could know whether to head uptown or not). No reply. Today just took bull by horns wrote letter 'reflecting the first nice one 'And another nice day. Does Thursday at 7:30pm work for you'. No reply.

My guess is her mom and sis b****-slapped her for asking ME out the moment I broke NC after two months. Because this is what she did when she met: pursued me. And they kept trying to turn it into me courting her but it was too late. So if she impulsively and happily asked me to meet her at 'our place' and they found out I'm sure they'd say no make him work for it this time.

There is a limit to what I'm willing to do here with this 'narrative' Skip. I'm totally at peace with letting go of any need for her to explain, apologize or otherwise make me feel good/better about what happened, despite her actions being objectively manipulative and hurtful. I got instead the best way to move forward was to understand and acknowledge her hurt and how my behavior contributed to it.

That does not mean I am going to pretend I screwed up our relationship and need to make amends and start from scratch. If going back and 'relitigating' what happened at the end makes no sense, then going way back to the beginning when she liked me and said "I like you you should pursue me" (I did not) and giving her what she wants; a false narrative is not happening either. A large part of our dynamic is precisely that she fell for me, pursued me, and eventually won me over due to her support, personality, connection, affection etc. The part where I messed up was not acknowledging that and especially when I started to reciprocate. So if there is any 'going back' I'm willing to go there. But to re-write this whole thing and treat her like a new girl I met who I'm trying to win over and court while she dates other men and we all compete for her attention is simply not happening. I don't like that dynamic in general, and I think in this case even it were 'successful' would predicate a relationship on an entirely manufactured and false premise AND false power dynamic.

I say all this since it appears, at least from the one day of sudden silence, that she is leaning towards the same 'solution' you are; he messed up let him win me back and court me and I'll play hard to get, play him off other men, and I'll get what I wanted when I met him; him pursuing me until I 'let' him win me. So he gets the grand prize of providing for and protecting me forever.  I'm simply not going there.

I will go to my acknowledging where I let her down and then seeing if we are both willing to pick up where we left off, with her AND I understanding I am fully and equally engaged in a relationship and hopefully a future together.

Let's see if there are replies. I'm guessing she is waiting for her Tuesday therapy session because clearly she replied the first time and with the invite w/o consulting anyone and made the same 'mistake' she did the first time. Me, I don't see it as a mistake, I love that she reached out and wanted to see me, it makes me want her more not less. I do NOT respond well to 'hard to get' never did, I've left more than one woman behind wondering why I never followed through. I am turned on by connection and interest not by 'challenge' and disinterest.

I would tend to agree to a certain extent that playing hard to get has a fine line between playful and the over doing it.But I’m all fairness if you are on this board you know or think she has BPD or at least some strong traits ... .which means your rule book needs some changes .Id also suggest (just my opinion) to let it sit awhile.It goes back to what I said to you before ,kinda let her come to you.Not NC that’s different , your not blocking her or preventing her from contacting you .Its kinda weird to say but she needs to miss you if that makes sense.Also if she has feelings for you she needs to prove them not just say them.If none of the above happens  then it goes back to the point you were trying to make above ,she’s not worth your time is she doesn’t want to invest (BPD or normal woman ) all the same result.
Oddly I was in a similar situation almost exactly like yours except we were together.Lots of let’s meet and the nothing happens,cancellations,she found other things to do.What happened ,well it didn’t work out and we went out separate ways ,problem solved .Sometimes people aren’t capatible ,just because they have BPD doesn’t mean they don’t have taste or preference.But before jumping to that conclusion,my two cents , just sit back and wait now see what happens.Take a week or two do stuff you like to do and let her be,no  point getting mad and the lack of response it will only stress your feelings towards her in a negative wAy.I know it’s frustrating when you like/love someone and it doesn’t come the other way ,but if she really has BPD , get used to it because that’s gonna be your future unless she seeks treatment and even then it’s a tuff battle for her.

[1stTimer]

Thank you for the feedback. I've actually been starting on your thread,quite a lot to digest but trying to get a handle on it, some similarities for sure. I'm hoping I can contribute some insights I've gleaned in my path her if they can be of any help.

Its kinda weird to say but she needs to miss you if that makes sense.

Definitely, though I'd say her immediate super happy reply within an our of my first reach out after two months of NC and her unsolicited follow-up asking ME out to OUR place says it all

Also if she has feelings for you she needs to prove them not just say them.

I don't think that was ever the problem the summary of our problem lies in the fact that when I started to come around to her level of feeling/commitment I never let her know. I didn't say OR prove them and I'm guessing a lot of our issues are due to that. Not sure how much of the thread you read but after my initial fury/hurt over how she handled things, I did a lot of introspection and realized a lot of her behavior was due to MY not showing my feelings.

But before jumping to that conclusion,my two cents , just sit back and wait now see what happens.Take a week or two do stuff you like to do and let her be,no  point getting mad and the lack of response it will only stress your feelings towards her in a negative wAy.

Funny thing is I am not mad. Once she replied I think almost the entire 'barb' that has been in my side for weeks just... .disappeared.  And even her (so far one day) non reply is not making me 'mad' I don't think she is playing games. I think she (or her family) is saying 'this is how you got where you were in the first place; you pursued him. He reached out after two MONTHS and you not only replied immediatly you asked him out which is what you did the FIRST time". IMHO the cat is already out of the bag, and they don't know me well enough to know that is not making we want/respect or want to give to her less but more. I like women with good taste  I will definitely sit on it a bit but I'm 99% sure that is where she is at and some pursuit is in order.

I know it’s frustrating when you like/love someone and it doesn’t come the other way ,but if she really has BPD , get used to it because that’s gonna be your future unless she seeks treatment and even then it’s a tuff battle for her.

She is in deep therapy, not sure if she is diagnosed, she has told me multiple times 'there is a lot you need to know about me.  In any event the real crux of all this is that she was in love and didn't feel it coming the other way; at first because it wasn't and later because I was too closed off to share with her what she was starting to mean to me. It becomes hard to put BPD on her, definitely issue but there was no devaluation and there was no discard. Mostly as I see it two people with some serious issues in their last decade plus came together, ended up really connecting and then all their individual stuff exploded together.  I've learned to not put labels or judgments on her actions, most definitely not to her face or in emails. When she does (if she does) finally tell me 'her stuff' I'll listen w/o judgment and I'll listen closely. But I'm learning I do much better with this, with her and with me when I don't label/judge her behavior and try to keep an eye on mine.

[1stTimer]

Update Redux:

Well I am back to my first gut reaction to the happiness in her text in her first reply (and to my gut to her quick request to meet which seemed weird for a girl to do for a guy who hasn't contacted her in two months): she is getting married.

Finally got reply from my two to her yesterday ":)o you want to meet at (our place) soon?"

"Hi. A lot happening. Can't make definite plans"

That does not sound like backing off or game playing to me. My gut is pretty decent even when I'm in such a skittishly weird scenario; her first reply was super happy like I haven't heard in a while and I guess I can attribute that to 'you finally texted!' but somehow seemed like I caught her while she was skipping down the street. She put out the 'talk to you soon?' and then a day later wants to meet me. Seems forward/anxious even for a girl that was nutso about me. He slams me, storms out, doesn't contact me except for one email then disappears again for a month, texts me out of the blue am I going to be super nice and then try to move back to a date? Without even making him sweat? Doesn't add up.

Anyway here was my reply

"No worries. Reach out when you want or when you can I am here"

Trying to sound a) no pressure b) unconcerned b) open c) supportive. I didn' want to pry or to make any reference to the 'lots of things'.

If she's getting married I'm not really upset I think I am much more at peace about all this since her replies which at least let me know I wasn't crazy she really cared about me. I'd already dropped any desire to find out what happened or get an apology (since I realized I had at least something to do with it). All I'd had left was apology to her but given her reply to my letter a month ago which was devoid of any anger/recrimination and her current replies she seems good with me. I think my letter last time went a long way and let her know all the things I would have said in a lot less words. I mean "I never realized how much my heart would soar when I saw your name pop up on my phone" has to tell her how I felt.

In any event all that was really left was reconnecting as friends (hard) or moving back together as lovers/relationship. Somehow that just feels like it is not happening. I still feel like someone came along when we started, not sure if abusive ex or her boss who might have been pushed into making a move after keeping her waiting for years if she told him she was not in a committed relationship. Can't compete with a billionaire :|

Anyway we'll see, I thought my text was as good as I could do, wasn't any 'heart on the sleeve' about it but still welcoming to her. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I either get text or email in next month or so she is engaged.

[pearlsw]

Hi 1stTimer,

I have to admit I've been wondering what is up with you!

Did I miss a step somehow? She confirmed she is getting married? If so, I am so sorry about that, but if that is the reality we take that and work with that okay.

How are you feeling? (I know I would feel both relieved in a way and hurt in a way.)

I'll say more when I am sure I am up to speed!

take care fella!

~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Did I miss a step somehow? She confirmed she is getting married? If so, I am so sorry about that, but if that is the reality we take that and work with that okay.

Hi Pearl, in fact she did not say a thing of the the sort. I am utterly extrapolating. Her replies so far have been

In reply to my first and only reach out since the nice letter I sent her a month ago which in turn only communication after I stormed out on her and yelled at her (much deserved but still):
- hi thank you I hope you are well too such a nice day talk later ok?

I thought the tone of this was super happy and my very first gut reaction was she was getting married. Sounded like she was skipping on air when she wrote it and guess I didn't consider at all it was for me ie. 'he texted!' The 'talk later ok?' seemed like a definite "I want to talk to you" not a generic response. I replied non-commital 'that sounds nice'.

Surprisingly the very next noon (Sunday, whilst I am feverlishly figuring out next move to see if I can engage since her reply seemed very much to invite it) I get this
- Would you like to meet at (place we met) soon?

I actually take this as confirmation of my first hunch. I mean it just seems weird/desperate almost for this girl or any girl after all that happened to explode us and the things I said would not only reply so fast but then instead of waiting for me to make a move ask me out (and to the place we met no less). It seemed like she had things to tell me (esp since her first reply even made that clear) and she wanted to get it done as fast as possible. Yeah I guess she could have texted that or, more to the point, never replied to me at all.

I am downtown and unclear if she means soon lunch of soon sometimes so I text
- Sure. Soon as in now/lunch or soon as in some time this week

No reply all day. Hmm. Next day (yesterday) in am I decide to be pro-active:
- And another beautiful day. Let me know if Thursday night works for you

No reply all day BUT at 11:30 at night I get
- Hi A lot happening. Can't make definite plans

Sure I'm reading a ton into this but it is adding up for me to my first very hard gut on this. Remember I thought she went back to ex (whom she ran into night of dinner) but another theory I had based on where she texted from before she 'sat me down' was that her billionaire boss whom she had an affair with and who told her to 'wait' for him (for years it seemed and she'd given up on) found out she was in a 'committed relationship' and was forced to act. All supposition here.

But her text wasn't just her pulling back to compensate for the fact she might have seemed to eager (again I am sure if her mom/sis found out SHE asked ME out they'd have yelled at her this is what you did the first time, pursued him, you shouldn't even have answered his text for a week let alone asked him out. again). It wasn't 'I'm busy sorry' pull back. It as 'A lot is happening'. Means major things in her life as I take it. And 'can't make definite plans'? "Our place" is 10 blocks from her house.

This is all just me going with my gut based on... .everything ... .and most especially my reaction to her first text. It would be great if my texting out of the blue made her skip in the air like that but it just seeme to me like my text caught her at a moment of joy so all the stuff that happened didn't even matter.

If she is getting married; relieved in a way sure, hurt in a way sure, sad in a way because part of me still would love to back up and see what we had with BOTH of us with our arms down (mainly means me fully present and not holding back and giving her the love/affection/validation she wanted).

Could be much ado about nothing of course and she just backed off hard/fast due to realizing he eagerness was exactly what got her (she and her mom/sis think) in this place in the first place. They are all wrong in fact, her playing hard to get or getting me to chase her would not have made me like her more. Couldn't care less about a 'challenge' in a woman, not liking me doesn't make me like anyone more (I'm actually healthy that way), LIKING me does and connection does.

Anyway sorry for my 3am ramble, my reply was this

No worries. Reach out when you want or when you can. I am here.

Seemed supportive, unconcerned, and open.

For all I know this could be classic BPD response, I have no idea. Just lost any of my intiial 'hmm maybe we have something here'. I was getting to the point where I thought she had given it all thought, was waiting for me to reach out though and when I did jumped at the chance.
-  

[1stTimer]

Did I miss a step somehow? She confirmed she is getting married? If so, I am so sorry about that, but if that is the reality we take that and work with that okay.

Yeah I get reality but to me that would support the whole invalidity and weirdness of what happened. I know it happens to people every day on this board so 'old news' but for me, spending two months spinning around after being almost corralled into a committed relationship future only to find out the other person was spending two months getting engaged and married is a tough one, however I felt.  I was feeling... .great... .about her reply and even better about her desire to meet at our place. It sort of validated... .everything... .and removed pretty much all the pain I've been in for months. Not that that would return if she now blows me off or tells me she is getting married but would sort of make it all bs and hurt a bit. Again as you know in part because I've been in an intense 15 year limbo and almost had a relationship/woman in my life and connections are hard for me to make (don't just go on a date, connect, have sex, and ta-da!).

What I'm hoping is that she knee-jerk reacted and her happiness was in fact me and her text was basically that "you called! let's talk again!" and that she knee-jerk messed up asking me out a day later and her entire family and therapist laid into her for doing what she did the first time; pursuing me and making it "easy" for me (cause naturally guys only respect you if it is hard :| ) and now she is finding a way to withdraw and make me chase. I just don't read it like that. "A lot is happening" doesn't mean "I'm busy with work" it means life changes. I know it is not moving she just did to her dream apartment (after I helped her score a 50% raise), it is not her job she loves her job, works for a billionaire, used to LOVE him, he told her to wait and led her on (one reason she needs to know a guy is 'committed' so she doesn't waste her time on one guy who isn't) so she isn't leaving that job. That leads very few 'lots happening' events.

What I don't get if my gut on this is right is; why reply to ME at all if she is engaged. Who am I then? Some guy that was part of her pool who left when she pushed? We didn't ever enter into our serious relationship, we weren't married or engaged, there would be no reason to reach out to me or reply. If she DID she could be polite "I am fine hope you are too see you around". But she replied excited and invited me to open dialogue. AND then invited me to our bar. Can she really have been planning to take the time to meet me after two months of NC just to let me know she is enagaged and not available? She wouldn't 'owe' me that unless we'd been communicating and startng to reestablish our relationship. We did not. Our ties were cut. So I'm really at a loss here and honestly tired of being at a loss in a relationship that isn't even one. So much stress and uncertainty and treading on eggshells and ambigious morality for what? Confused more than anything and now I've manueavered my self with my reply into wait mode. I'm not sure what else I could have replied other than calm, accepting, I'm here if you want.

[Shawnlam]

Yeah I get reality but to me that would support the whole invalidity and weirdness of what happened. I know it happens to people every day on this board so 'old news' but for me, spending two months spinning around after being almost corralled into a committed relationship future only to find out the other person was spending two months getting engaged and married is a tough one, however I felt.  I was feeling... .great... .about her reply and even better about her desire to meet at our place. It sort of validated... .everything... .and removed pretty much all the pain I've been in for months. Not that that would return if she now blows me off or tells me she is getting married but would sort of make it all bs and hurt a bit. Again as you know in part because I've been in an intense 15 year limbo and almost had a relationship/woman in my life and connections are hard for me to make (don't just go on a date, connect, have sex, and ta-da!).

What I'm hoping is that she knee-jerk reacted and her happiness was in fact me and her text was basically that "you called! let's talk again!" and that she knee-jerk messed up asking me out a day later and her entire family and therapist laid into her for doing what she did the first time; pursuing me and making it "easy" for me (cause naturally guys only respect you if it is hard :| ) and now she is finding a way to withdraw and make me chase. I just don't read it like that. "A lot is happening" doesn't mean "I'm busy with work" it means life changes. I know it is not moving she just did to her dream apartment (after I helped her score a 50% raise), it is not her job she loves her job, works for a billionaire, used to LOVE him, he told her to wait and led her on (one reason she needs to know a guy is 'committed' so she doesn't waste her time on one guy who isn't) so she isn't leaving that job. That leads very few 'lots happening' events.

What I don't get if my gut on this is right is; why reply to ME at all if she is engaged. Who am I then? Some guy that was part of her pool who left when she pushed? We didn't ever enter into our serious relationship, we weren't married or engaged, there would be no reason to reach out to me or reply. If she DID she could be polite "I am fine hope you are too see you around". But she replied excited and invited me to open dialogue. AND then invited me to our bar. Can she really have been planning to take the time to meet me after two months of NC just to let me know she is enagaged and not available? She wouldn't 'owe' me that unless we'd been communicating and startng to reestablish our relationship. We did not. Our ties were cut. So I'm really at a loss here and honestly tired of being at a loss in a relationship that isn't even one. So much stress and uncertainty and treading on eggshells and ambigious morality for what? Confused more than anything and now I've manueavered my self with my reply into wait mode. I'm not sure what else I could have replied other than calm, accepting, I'm here if you want.

I will be honest your story as it stands now sounded like mine near the end.Maybe it’s just as simple as her being nice to you and that’s it? I spoke with mine as early as Friday when she texted me have a Good Friday , I responded you to and a good weekend ... .It only means we are being nice to each other nothing more.

[1stTimer]

I will be honest your story as it stands now sounded like mine near the end.Maybe it’s just as simple as her being nice to you and that’s it?

In my case I don't think so. You two were in contact, talking. We had a MASSIVE blow out with me storming out, the day after we spent as official boyfriend/girlfriend and her doing massive future bomb (as she has since I met her). The whole 'official' thing was her pressure as it has been since we met. Basically I gave her everything she had wanted for months; a commited relationship. When she got scared or whatever it was and cut and run next day I slammed her and left. We didn't text/call/speak for two months so I don't believe her reply to me was 'being nice' and her reaching out for us to meet at our place was 'being nice'. There were intense feelings especailly on her side, and an intense cyclone leading to us committing to be together. Two months ago she was dying ot introduce me to her family as her first real boyfriend in ten years, wanted to buy a king size bed for us to sleep in every night, was discussing every aspect of our future together. She got scared I get it. But I don' think her reply to me two months later w/o any discussion since was her 'being nice'. Being nice is 'thanks I am fine hope you are too'. She clearly wanted to talk and meet and backed off fast.

[1stTimer]

Hi. A lot happening. Can't make definite plans

I'd sort of preferred; look meeting will be hard but had wanted to just let you know abc. Again WHY? Why get back in touch, why push meeting? Why at a bar, why at our bar? Just to say hey btw I'm engaged/married. Just doesn't make sense other than cruelty. Hey that guy I really liked and almost got serious with but blew up in our face called me out of the blue two months later, I'll reply and meet him so I can tell him I'm getting married. Does. Not. Compute.

I'm going to take the sweet reply I first got and run with it, this seems more and more to be the type of BPD behavior I read about AND the reason I first posted to this board. I had talked myself into it being my own issues and less of hers but this seems to confirm what happened the whole time that led me here in the first place. And the last thing I want to do is get spun around in BPD recycling/devaluing/games.

[Skip]

Shawn, if you read back through your posts you will note that you when you assign intent to her actions, it is more based on what you need to hear in order to cope or manage your emotional reactions than what  is most likely happening.

You wear a mask to yourself. If make you feel safe.  At the same time, it jerks you around... .this is why you go through lofty highs and dark valleys, and conflicting truths (she's a cheater, shes not a cheater) often within hours of each other.

This has not served you well. Do you remember how you angry and accusatory you were at her silence only to find out she was pregnant. Your assignment o intent was way off.

I think if you seek a more clinical truth, you will find it very painful in the beginning, because it is going to push some self doubt buttons, but then you will breakthrough and actually see yourself - your good guy side and not so good guy side - the one all of us have. Seeing that "not so good guy side" clinically (not with a lofty high or deep value eyes) is sobering but it is also the path to being a better person.

It only means we are being nice to each other nothing more.

I think it means more than that. It's not a natural communication - its not your birthday, she is not bumping into you at the market - she doesn't typically wish you "happy Friday" - its an awkward probe to engage you.

Just like 1T's text about the park was a probe, an opening. You just contacted her recently to "see if she was OK" which, despite what you tell yourself or the members here (   ) was you probing her.

This spring, your relationship got very emotionally difficult - you really reacted to her pulling back and whacked her back pretty hard - she withdrew - you exited multiple times - she finally ended that by exiting herself. I'm sure she has doubts about reconnecting, but she has not dismissed it. You had the lunch which was positive. And then the "how are you" text from you. And now this.

This that couple of months recovery we talked about. It can go this way.

I might have responded to her by telling her something interesting that you were doing this weekend... .just creak that door open. You will get another chance - not damage done.

There was, however,  a lot of damage done this Spring. She doesn't want to ignite that again for sure (the bad stuff). She also knows you have been seeing other women (as you suspect of her, too). But she has not gone away. She probably doesn't know what she wants and is exploring multiple directions forward for her life. You are in that running at some level.

I think that is likely the intent.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-
Your text to her was kind.  Her response was receptive and allowed you back into her "circle".  She feels good knowing you're there.  Who knows who else inhabits that space... .she sort of let you in on those "others" during the 18 hours of your "Official Togetherness".  If I recall, it was during that period that she disclosed information about other men she had seen while she saw you, right?  Actually, even before then she made a few disclosures that you accepted because you really were NOT steadily together, and I can kind of see her point.  Except... .I'm unclear about the timeline.  But water under the bridge anyway, except for the disclosures on the OFFICIAL NIGHT.

Many BPDs need fallback people in case things don't work out.  That emptiness needs to be filled.  Gotta have that "love", for what it's worth.  Your good news, and you already knew this, is that she doesn't "hate" you or seemingly hold a grudge, at least right now, for how you reacted when she sprung the great guy news on you.

Seems the younger BPDs (men AND women) have a hard time living the one partner concept (that fear of abandonment thing, gotta have someone in the wings).  More mature BPDs (mine is/was 60) have often put their cheating ways in the rear view mirror.  Guess it's harder to keep track of their lies (or their phones), maybe even their stiffies!  Sorry, had to say it - humor is my lifeline right now.

So a few questions... .actually one question.  No, some questions.  What evidence have you seen that this woman is prepared to be that supportive, hold that sword to keep away predators if you're ever temporarily down on your knees, lifelong lover that YOU deserve?  Can SHE truly make a decision, answer a question you ask honestly without taking a poll of sisters, mothers, therapists, people on the street, current and past lovers?  What will she bring TO your life to elevate you?  Can she be a partner for you?  A giving lover to you?

You were needed so much by family members during the last 12+ years.  Giving and giving... .a lot of sacrifice.  Time to fulfill some dreams, wouldn't you say?

And the guessing game... .what's in her head.  I remember asking BPDbf one night as we laid our heads on pillows... ."what do you see when you close your eyes?"  He said, "darkness".  I howled with laughter, because I knew it was the truth.  His lack of depth scared me into laughing.  It was at that point I realized how little he had ever understood a word I had said for years... .man he had me fooled.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Shawnlam]

  Skip

You could be correct and she may have been probing but I wasn’t.After talking to my therapist about everything that happened for sure in the past my decisions were probing “intent” if you will.Now not at all, I have zero will or intent to get back into a relationship with her.Dont forget we were friends prior to being intimate and in a relationship for a little over 5 years .When I found out she wasn’t doing too well my sole intent was to check on her and see if she was doing well.The minor polite and friendly interaction we’ve had were simple texts .I kinda think it’s pretty nice to be friendly again,as my therapist puts it, don’t over analyze,don’t read in meanings to the simplest gestures ,don’t think outside the obvious ... .pretty much all things I’ve done in my past that frankly caused unrequired turmoil.Not everyone with BPD is out to reconnect and tamper with people mentally in a malicious way,sometimes they just are normal.We used to text each other prior to our relationship like this often ,just friendly pokes of “hey you how’s life treating you” ,nothing complicated ,keep it simple .Feels good and at the same time keeps everything nice and amicable.
I’d of agreed with you 100% if the phone was blowing up with texts ,emails,calls, but there is nobody leading anyone on here,zero expectations usual equals zero issues .
As I heal and better myself certain jesters mean different things now.Old Shawn yeah I could see it ,the pokes ,prodding the watch see up to now ,what she thinking,I gotta see her again.But as more and more time goes by that old thought pattern took a long walk away.As my therapist puts it “if you can wish someone you love and let go a good day and how’s it going” while going about your normal life with sincerity,you are finally getting the point ! Its not only about you and you finally realized it, so in turn I did exactly that! Asked her how she was doing ,genuinely happy she’s doing well, wished her a great weekend in response to her text , with zero feelings of wanting anything in return ... .frankly I was and am happy about feeling this way ,feels less selfish ,less needy,more manly .

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT-
Your text to her was kind.  Her response was receptive and allowed you back into her "circle".  She feels good knowing you're there.  Who knows who else inhabits that space... .she sort of let you in on those "others" during the 18 hours of your "Official Togetherness".  If I recall, it was during that period that she disclosed information about other men she had seen while she saw you, right?

Hmm no but the timeline does get confusing. When I was realizing we 'had' something (keys, drawers, making love, etc.) she let me know she 'dabbled' as she called it with some guy. I still believe it was part of her campaign to get me to ask her to be my gf ("you'll ask me by the end of the month I guarantee you". She said as much "I'm just trying to get you jealous and see we should be in a relationship". I didn't hear about 'men' just the one and then some date she was going to go on she didn't. And again this was when she was trying to get me to agree to start staying over and waking up in my arms. I don't really think she was a sleep around person or had multiple men. Even during the two years I knew her she hardly ever had dates and, if she is to be believed, when we did have that great 8 hour consummation she said it was the first sex she'd had in a year.

What she revealed on Official Togetherness Night  was that she'd actually had feelings for her abusive ex I did not realize and she'd seen him the day before and it hurt her and she almost cancelled our dinner. No idea if she went back to him or not.  So basically found out she'd started becomong receptive to dating, but only because I wasn't coming around and what she WANTED was me to come around.

Just to put that whole other guy part to rest; when we had that week where were not 'official' until I officially asked I finally asked her if that is because there are other men she wanted to be with or get out of her system or just in general sow her oats. Which I said was fine but naturally would not be asking her to be my one and only if so. She said absolutely not, nothing and no one to get out of my system and texted me 'I am 100% committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me again'

Seems the younger BPDs (men AND women) have a hard time living the one partner concept

Yet this was her entire THEME since I met her. Wanted a committed monogamous relationship. Told me after we slept together that she thinks she never wants to have sex again unless married or in committed relationship. Said and alluded to the fact she hasn't had sex in a long time and does not unless she really likes someone, and said all the time "I'm a one-woman man". One reason I liked her so much since that is the kind of man I am. One reason her whole "I know I'd cheat on him if I dated/married him" spun me out of control and really was at the center of all of my lash outs after. Because if that is true she was 180 degrees from who I was, what I beleived in and what she said and who I fell for.

What evidence have you seen that this woman is prepared to be that supportive, hold that sword to keep away predators if you're ever temporarily down on your knees, lifelong lover that YOU deserve?

Well right now mostly things she said such as "I don't care that you live with your mother, I love the fact you care for her and believe in you" and "Perhaps you don't need this to make a billion or a million you just need to make a life you are happy with". Words? Sure. But the girl did in her own way stick by my side waiting for me to come around for a long long time.

Can SHE truly make a decision, answer a question you ask honestly without taking a poll of sisters, mothers, therapists, people on the street, current and past lovers?

Not sure if she 'polls' as much as she has a mom and sis who believe in 'men provide and protect women talk to them and make them better men' (she told me that I said I'm a better man than you can imagine I don't need you to make me better), men should court, women should make men chase, feel uncertain, etc. She was basically telling me though since she wanted me to court and chase her. Funny when I said 'let's keep our mother's opinions out of it?' and finally shared my mother's opinion she got mad.

What will she bring TO your life to elevate you?  Can she be a partner for you?  A giving lover to you?

I think she brought a lot already to elevate me. I think she was very supportive of me and affectionate to me and made a beautiful birthday for me (when no one else remembered). I think she could be fantastically giving if I'd opened myself up to appreciating her back. Yes.

You were needed so much by family members during the last 12+ years.  Giving and giving... .a lot of sacrifice.  Time to fulfill some dreams, wouldn't you say?

God yes. I'm working on it. And one of those dreams was a woman by my side who I could love fully. And I want(ed) to see what this women who could love and support me the way she did with me holding back could love me when I loved her as fully as I am capable of which is a LOT. I think she felt this and knew this. She told me at 'the end' how much she loved how I was with her in a way she'd never experienced; communicative, romantic and if she liked me before I'm pretty sure that, the explosion aside, she got a taste as I did of what we could be with my hands down and heart open too. I'll never forget her face when she asked me, after telling me how much she hated her (admittely not the best) hands 'name ONE thing you like about them' and I said 'they are connected to you'. I don't think she has ever been loved like that.

And the guessing game... .what's in her head.  I remember asking BPDbf one night as we laid our heads on pillows... ."what do you see when you close your eyes?"  He said, "darkness".  I howled with laughter, because I knew it was the truth.  His lack of depth scared me into laughing.  It was at that point I realized how little he had ever understood a word I had said for years... .man he had me fooled.

That is scary to be sure. I'm less and less convinced she has BPD. I don't even know about this whole marriage thing, I'm TOTALLY guessing this mainly out of fear. I loved her happy immediate reply to me and her desire to talk, I LOVED that she asked ME out the next day and at 'our place'. I loved what it seemed to possibly imply, that she too has been pining for what we had, realized what we lost. Since I am not a man who falls for women because I 'win' them or because of their bodies or ANYTHING but our connection; how they felt about me and how I felt about them, I'm going to have to guess my feelings two full months out meant there was a CONNECTION which would by definition not just mean ME. I'll tell you something 'stupid'; the day before I texted her I FELT her. I felt in fact almost exactly the nature of her reply. If she was not (as I feared) walking on air because she was in love, she was because of me reaching out. It all is great and happy up to her asking me to our place again.

I cannot for the life of me see her doing that to hurt me. I like to see it and FEELS like it from her replies that that connection is as deep as I feel it here. So for now if I let go of my fear about what 'could' be and just go on our past and her past behaviors, I'd have to posit that she scared herself, again, and realized that she was doing 'it' again'; pursuing me. She took my # early on, she'd text me to see if I wanted to meet at bar x or bar y, she'd text me to ask her out. I'm sure she got a s***storm for doing it again.

I'm trying to just be with this without my fear and believe the 'felt her' and the replies are what they felt like. It is why I replied the way I did because to me it basically says, I think "Take your time, I still love you and am here when and if you are ready". It's all I can do.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
[/quote]

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stT-
Now DON'T do this right NOW, just think about it, ok?  And I want to know what Skip thinks about it. 

Courting... .have you EVER sent or given her flowers?  Nothing HUGE!  Maybe a bundle of colorful wildflowers in a simple vase she can keep with a handwritten note "These lovely colors bring you to mind, xo your name".   You can personally leave this with her doorman when you know she's at work.    Put the note in a sealed envelope.  You do this on a weekday, NOT on a Friday!  And then turn your phone off that evening and go hear some great music in a smoky bar!  Just do something different for yourself.

I loved when I was given flowers from men who cared for me.  I have received them from friends and lovers... .always felt the same appreciation at the thought.  I sure as heck could use them now... .

If she is in a serious relationship, she will tell you then.  And that is something you want to know, right? 

If she is not in a serious r/s, is afraid, unsure of her feelings or wants to be courted, the flowers will be a sweet and relatively inexpensive way to get that ball rolling.  Either way, finding out sooner rather than later if you're more than a "great guy" will be to your benefit, right? 

In NYC, there are incredible flower stands everywhere!  When I visit the city, I ALWAYS marvel at the displays of color and think "I need those for my hotel room".  On my next visit, I'm going to do that for certain!

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Courting... .have you EVER sent or given her flowers?... .
Your thoughts?

I love giving women flowers. My last ex I became an expert in the art and had an amazing place in San Francisco where I'd go either make custom bouqets myself and/or ask them to make one for an occasion. I think the last one was 'I messed up I'm sorrry. Wait no; I didn't mess up but I'm apologizing anyway because I love you so it doesn't matter that you messed up. Something like that. And throw in a white Ranunculus'

I was going to get her flowers for The Big Date That Wasn't :| but it seemed off by then.

Anyway. I think it is premature. I think it won't go over well right now. I don't think it will push her towards me. I think her last text was asking for space after she came towards me.

Honestly my big question is not 'is she in a serious relationship'. I'll take her on her word there was no one else and she had nothing and no one to get out of her system. Except of course the abusive emotionally degrarding ex which couldn't have lasted long IF she went back to him. And her billionaire boss who clearly was never going to marry her. I mean clearly there is always the possibility but my own insecurities made me thing her happiness when she texted me back was 'other directed' and that her unpromted invitation to meet up was to tell me about it and her 'lots happening' was an engagement. That is all just me being insecure. I mean it all COULD be but it just doesn't add up to the entire situation. I think a) she was clearly very happy to hear from me and b) jumped the shark asking me out and c) backed off because of that. I can't however push FORWARD from that so I think my reply  was spot on. If I don't hear from her in say... .2 weeks... .I can gently reach out. Maybe at some point I'll need to go 'big gesture' on flowers but I think it is for when we know we are or might be moving forward. I think it would scare her off now, we have things we need to discuss and clearly she has some skittishness that won't be addressed by flowers.

On the courting, man I have to tell you it used to piss me off when she would tell me her mom/sis said that. I was crystal clear where I was. I also thought given I'd worked hard to help get her a huge raise that got her into her new lux place, was super supportive and non-judgmental about her issues she shared with me which she was worried would drive me away, didn't sleep with her when I could have because I did not want what she wanted, and when I did finally was spectacularly tuned into her needs, someone in her family could have looked a those VERY important indications of respecting her as a person and a lady and not said 'he needs to buy you dinner' to boot. But no one really cared I did that and no one really cared where *I* was coming from or my limitations I had to give emotionally.

As an fyi and not to do pity-party me; when I say I helped take care of my dad after losing the woman I loved and career in California and coming back to NY lost, I mean I ended up living with two other adults (mother and sister) on top of one another ,me in a single-bed in the dinette in the kitchen w/o a door for YEARS. I mean we watched my father slowly lose his mental faculties, his balance, his ability to feed himself, and control over his bowels. We dealt with him escaping for awhile, then had to listen out for him falling (often finding him in the am on the floor) and clean his urine and feces while he sat mortified and unable to speak. The house smelt like urine for 5 years after his death. We were on top of each other all day like this, I made some money walking dogs, which after having a career was not only humbling buit about as lonely a thing as you can imagine; walking into other peoples homes who have lives and wives while they are out living them so you can pick up their dog poo. We had a younger sister who didn't help but she'd drop her dog off for the 4 of us to walk while she went to her beach house every weekend. My sister was in and out of both rehab and institutions and was emotionally abusive and almost managed to alientate ME from the entire extended family so I ended up eating along every night for years. When my dad passed away my mother, who had known him since she was 17 cloistered herself in her room until she almost died of grief. Just before I started with this girl, I took my mother to California to visit the same younger sister, hoping that seeing her favorite child and her niece and a new setting might salvage her soul (I was texting same girl at the time while I was there so she knew some of this). Yet my sister and her husband were so engrossed in their million-dollar problems the made matters worse treating my mother worse. One night they left to go to some swanky party or the other and my mother begged me to stay and not leave her alone. We started talking and she started crying telling me about going to some mall with them earlier in the day and kept saying the mezzanine wasn't high enough. I kept asking what she meant and finally she wailed 'to jump to jump to jump'. My mother had contemplated killing herself. I had to lay into my sister to get her to get her act together (thank god she did) and spent most of the time there, while desparately trying to pull my business venture critial to getting my life back together, walking my mother every day around Santa Monica to get her mentally back in shape. Whilst there she broke her leg so I had to stay even longer (she begged me to not leave her with them) and I had to twist arms with the airline to get get curbside escorts and wheelchair to the plane door and got them to do free upgrades to first-class and got her home alone. When I returned is when things 'started' with this girl. And I was still trying desparetly to get this venture off the ground which required daily knife fights (so to speak) with offshore developers who mainly stole my money while my life drained out the sand clock. So when I say to this girl "I have nothing to give emotionally" I'm not being a weenie who just had a divorce of had a demotion. I'm desparately trying to save my mother, deal with a complet and utter lack of privacy and dignity as a grown man, and create a technology no one has been able to on basically pennies, my whole entire future dependent on my ability to do so. So I gave to this woman what I could; I spent hours and days helping to draft a proposal for HER job which resulted in a life changing raise and to be there for her emotionally and physically as much as I could. So yeah, having her mom and sis say 'he needs to step up his game' created some push back on the whole 'courting' thing and having her tell me, knowing how I wanted to move to California to put the years of hell behind me and start fresh that I needed to consider staying in NY ANYWAY because her job was here even though we had not even had intercourse yet... So you can see there is a lot more here than just some guy who was skittish about committing and didn't do the right thing and court the girl. it took everything I had to come around and decide that SHE should be the most important thing in my life and it was HER future I needed to worry about and HER needs I needed to worry about. That 'be my one and only' wasn't some high school kid asking a girl to the prom, it was a massively difficult decision made by a man with very little to give except at that point his heart. It was me letting go of all of that and deciding to give everything I had to her including my future. Letting go of what ended up happening in context to all this took a lot of work and introspection so I could understand that she too had a past and if her past affected me than mine surely affected her so at least one of us needs to put that aside and look out for the other if anything is to come of it.

Sorry for the digression but the whole 'buy her flowers' thing just triggers the whole issue behind the relationship and having it pulled like that in the first place. Wasn't jsut as simple 'ask me out no never mind'.

So no I am not dropping flowers off. We have other things we need to get past. If she is with someone else than so be it, I just don't see how that is really a/the issue. I think my text meant the world to her and I think she probably broke some 'rule' she'd made about not pursuing let him pursue. I could be all wrong but then I could be wrong about anything I posit. Right now I a) sent a beautiful letter so she knows how I really felt b) reached out with my heart free of any need for apology or explanation just caring (despite my spew above) c) gently let her know when she took a step back I am here when/if she is ready to reach out. If she does and we can get to a good spot I will shower her with flowers and courtship and love