Invalidating her by just breathing

[Notwendy]

Well Jim Jones said that god told him and his flock to drink poisoned Kool Aid. Somewhere we need to use common sense when people speak like OM does. Three major religions adopt the 10 commandments which don't support that his and your wife's feelings for each other  are divinely ordained. I think that's enough evidence.

Keep all those e mails- they would be evidence should they pursue a divorce. I'm not a lawyer but could these e mails be evidence for "alienation of affection?"

[Enabler]

Fear not they are banked in multiple locations for safe keeping. She is seeking a divorce and the petition is going through now at a glacial pace. Going down guns blazing is the work of pride, and pride comes before a fall.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds”

... .and let’s hope we don’t have to wait for his death to see his ends!

[Notwendy]

Your wife is going to think/ say whatever she does. What's important is that you maintain a perspective grounded in reality. Even your children will observe that their mother says things that don't coincide with their observations. It's important that you validate them in a diplomatic way.  My father joined my BPD mother in denying my own reality - even though he knew better himself. I would rather he reinforce my perceptions. Your kids are young but they will grow and have minds of their own.

The triangle is common and not just with romantic relationships. I was my mother's black child. She blamed her issues with my father on me. I believed that when I left for college, they'd be happy without me. They still had their issues after I left. Your wife can imaging that she and OM would be happy if you got out of the way. That isn't likely to be true. If you think about how your relationship started- it seems she found you when she had a boyfriend. Maybe they were having issues that she imagined would not be with you. But we bring our own dysfunction into relationships. She and OM are in a fantasy relationship because she is unavailable to be with him all the time. That's a lot of if only.

[Notwendy]

He might not want her once she is available to him. I know it is speculation but it could be her unavailability that enables this intimacy. He's safe ( so far ) from a real relationship with its ups and downs.

He could have his own issues-  If it was just the two of them it could be an unstable relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

Enabler, you say that it "feels unstoppable" and I would conclude that you're right.

My first husband had numerous affairs, some of which I became aware of. I tried all manner of sabotage and no matter what manner of monkey wrench I attempted to throw into the works, nothing seemed to slow down these affairs, nor make either of the affair partners aware of nor compassionate for my role as the cheated upon wife.

Over time, however, all these affairs eventually burned out. One of them, however, lasted many years.

So, I would wager that there's nothing you can say or do that would hinder the ardor with which they are pursuing this folly, which they believe is graced by God. Any interference would likely cause a further backlash against you.

That said, it seems your only choice is how much you choose to interact with your wife, and considering that you are still living together with your children, that seems hard to avoid.

She's got the best of both worlds: the fantasy partner, and you, supporting her.

Until one of those situations change, I think she'll drag out the divorce and milk your support for all she can get.

My ex was blinded by following his "passion" but at the same time was really cunning, in trying to get as much out of me as he could. I sense that your wife understands this calculus.

[formflier]

A few thoughts/questions.

Does she normally write this way?  Does she normally talk this way?

That was a "unique" piece of writing... .wow.

Last question:  Can you do a "fault" divorce?  Is there any legal advantage to involve the OM in a lawsuit for interfering in your marriage?

No clue about your laws over there. 

Do you have other... similar emails?

FF

[Enabler]

There are many emails but the bulk of interaction was on WhatsApp post may16 when I confronted her with my evidence, something I would now advise members to not do unless they are prepared to give a firm altimatum since actually it just served as a learning experience to change behaviours not stop. I did scrape the WhatsApp messages via a backup on our home pc but again I spoke to someone else about this, she found out and had a guy erase the evidence. I now photograph things on a work phone and just collate evidence safely... .saying nothing. It makes little difference other than pride whether there is fault or not in the UK, the financials for example are allocated on a needs basis.

FF, interesting you should ask if she writes in this manner... .no, she doesn’t at all. The style of writing and words are OM’s style and his words, she is mirroring him. She also spent our entire relationship saying she hated motorbikes and would never marry a smoker... .he rides a Harley for leisure and smokes. She mirrors a few significant people, always has done... .hence her values change. I mapped out friends and our relationship over the years and there were huge correlations based on the different people she was idealising.

The evolution of our relationship has been almost exactly word for word as per the bpdfamily evolution of a BPD relationship piece, it also rang true from the article called “why we struggle with relationships” about how there was a period of calm when we had very young kids (sub invalidation age say 2). As though she had everything she had always dreamsed of. Now she looks back at young baby period with contempt.

D8 & D9 are already getting a view and whilst trying to avoid parental alienation I do validate their sense that mummy talks a lot of BS. I caught D9 on Sunday looking at W after W aggressively claiming she was so busy to do something (guilting D9 into doing an adult task of making lunch)... .D9 had suggested if she was so busy she shouldn’t go for a bike ride and was shot down... .anyway, the look was “I’m all over what you’re doing here and I know you’re wrong but I know it’s pointless arguing with you.” Later on I said to D9, you should have confidence in your gut, you made a very valid point earlier, to which she said “I know”.

As things stand at the moment, that is one of the primary reasons why I am here now, I see the value I add to the kids lives.

Just want to say how wonderful you all are and I really appreciate the support over the last few days. Xxxx

[Enabler]

Whilst clearing out the filing cabinet today... .I know, how to spend a vacation day when it’s 30c outside... .I stumbled on a bunch of letters, some were from me, some were from my W ex from 14-18. It’s insane when you read the love letters, all bar none say “I don’t know why you’re angry with me, I love you and will do anything to sort it out”. Both me and the ex never seem to get why she was angry with us... .20+ yrs ago. One letter that stands out was one from me written in our first year at university. We’d obviously had a fight and there was a bit of a Mexican stand off, with me in the flat below wishing she would come down and rightfully apologise and her upstairs thinking... .something totally different. Anyway, I wrote this letter saying “don’t block me out of your problems, I can solve them for you”. If only I knew that I couldn’t solve anything for her. I might have been able to carry the bag that she should be carrying as an adult... .but solve the prpblem... .naaaaa, no chance.

Can’t drive life in reverse!

[formflier]

Given the relatively low percentages of PDs that are out there... .I've often wondered if I should "train" my kids differently than my parents did.

I mean... if someone is mad... .especially in a relationship... .see if you can work it out.

Does anyone raise their kids to say "I have confidence that you will work through your apparent anger... " or some sort of SET?

Sigh... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It’s interesting how we nons can get evidence that we disregard at an early stage in our relationship.

When my husband was moving in with me, he sorted through boxes of old correspondence and shared a letter his first wife had written him when they split up in their early twenties.

She pointed out his inability to self reflect. He thought it was a nasty unkind letter, but at the time, 10 years ago—when we still were in the honeymoon phase, I thought it was quite accurate and direct, not unkind at all.

So I knew then what’s taken me years to accept!

[Cat Familiar]

Given the relatively low percentages of PDs that are out there... .I've often wondered if I should "train" my kids differently than my parents did.

As the daughter of a BPD mom, I wholeheartedly agree that you should take steps to train your kids to look out for PDs.

Low percentage? I seem to find them everywhere—friends, relatives and acquaintances abound. I’m now actively trying to root out the ones I don’t need to interact with and put distance between me and the ones that I must endure.

Fortunately my relationship with my husband has become the easiest of the lot, thanks to what I’ve learned here.

But I can’t emphasize this enough: when you grow up with a BPD parent, the behavior you witness has a ring of normalcy and familiarity. And it becomes easy to tolerate behaviors that woul seem to be deviant to someone raised by emotionally healthy parents. In fact, it even can feel homey and comfortable and one can feel helpful and kind aka codependent.

So, absolutely, talk to your kids about PDs. That woul be a good topic to bring up with your P—ask how to delicately share the info without putting the onus on your wife. Kids will know something is off with mom—they just won’t understand what it is.

It took me years and graduating with a BA in Psych and some years in grad school with an unfinished degree, and years of therapy, and not till I found this site did I realize what exactly was “wrong” with my mother.

I remember telling someone years ago that it might be harder when a parent is high functioning in the external world to understand that they do indeed have a mental illness. For so many years I felt that I was to blame for her outbursts.

I think if someone acts crazy and everyone can see it, then you have a collective perspective. When only the family observes it, then it’s easy to doubt your own perceptions.

[Enabler]

Said ex was deamonised to me, as far as I knew he was a violent druggy who played around... .this dossier would actually suggest she was the one playing around (plenty of letters from other randoms during what I thought was a continuous teenage relationship), she liked a smoke when I met her and I know she didn’t mind hitting her ex. I thought I could fix her, I thought “it” was environment rather than an integral part of her. Rather than her orbiting chaos, the chaos was orbiting her, and still is.

I think I realised this many years back, probably 2001-2002, post marriage. She had the environment for happiness yet tried to destroy it time and time again. This is when I aggressively changed the deck of cards, poorly asserted boundaries with shot guns and rocket launchers... .regrets... .of course. Mores the point I was shooting blind in the dark, from the hip.

I will be teaching my kids to look out for red flags, that said, I think by the time they get to adulthood they will know the full manual. I already teach soft skills and rather than opt for the traditional “just make up and move on” I opt for a more thoughtful process of “has this person got form in being horrible to you? Maybe getting back in the sand pit is not in your best interests, you decide”. D9 is making good friend choices and learning lessons quickly. Although PDs are only a small sub sect of the popn, they pull in a lot of people into their chaos. I would say 50+ people are whirling around my wife’s chaos, not to mention the maimed lives left in her wake in the past.

[Notwendy]

This is probably a topic for another discussion but as much as I agree with teaching children to look out for PD red flags that is IMHO insufficient to help them avoid a relationship with someone with a PD.

I saw the red flags in my BPD mother. The illusion was that I saw her as the only one with the problem. I idealized my father and perceived him as her victim. I only learned later that "normal" and even desirable in my family was equally dysfunctional enabling behavior. I had two role models for relationships. I knew my mother was dysfunctional and didn't want to be like her, so I grew up taking on my father's characteristics. This set me up to attract people who were attracted to emotional caretakers and not even realize it.

I was not allowed to stand up for myself with BPD mother and was punished by both my parents if I did. I did not know how to stand up for myself in a relationship and feared angry people.

With my own children, I encourage them to trust their gut. If they don't feel comfortable around someone- I validate their feelings. Their own boundaries are their best protection and I reinforce them, not deny them. I also am open about myself . They are old enough to understand that I am working on co dependency. I have discussed the drama triangle with them. Since my H is good to the children most of his issues are mainly with me. I would feel as if I was triangulating if I discussed him with the kids but if they ever ask me, I would be honest. By working on my own enabling behavior I don't role model it for them. Instead they see me applying the tools here, self care, and boundaries. With these intact - they are less likely to attract and or remain in a relationship with a PD for long than if I modeled enabling behavior.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother is severe and has all the classic signs of BPD and they were obvious. I knew to avoid them. The issues with my H and his own FOO background were milder and I did not recognize them. I guess growing up with the obvious was a mixed blessing. I recognized major dysfunction but not other forms of it. There were clues, but I wrote them off because they were not as severe as my mother. What appeared to be "normal" to me was years of verbal abuse, circular arguments, days of silent treatment- all with a partner who didn't act like my mother because I was taught to enable and accept it.

[RolandOfEld]

I was not allowed to stand up for myself with BPD mother and was punished by both my parents if I did. I did not know how to stand up for myself in a relationship and feared angry people.

This was me, Nw, and I'm guessing a lot of us here.

Enabler I think you've touched on something very important here and seconding Nw that this might be worth a whole new thread. It's inspiring to me that you are actively teaching your kids to watch for the red flags since they are a few years ahead of mine in age. Right now my kids are small so I really don't know how to teach them beyond not doing the horrible things their mother does. Also trying to control the messaging when mom is not around "mama and baba love you, you will always be with us, we will never send you away, etc... ."

~ROE

[Cat Familiar]

This was me, Nw, and I'm guessing a lot of us here.

Ditto.

[Enabler]

This is my D9... .I’m trying to change that, give her the confidence that her voice speaks truth. She is a lovely creature, I’m not perfect so I’m glad when she challenges me... .and when she does I give her little voice air time. Yes we argue but I take her points and we discuss in an appropriate way. I don’t shout her down for arguing with me, I critique her points but I see that as fair game. She’s entitled to opinion and often it’s totally valid... .hopefully she sees that I adopt her valid points and she’s comfortable that I’ve given her suitable reason when it’s not. Her M on the other hand wants no discussion, you will believe in unicorns!

[ConcernDad]

Feel terrible about what happened last night in front of my son. Cross at myself for being so stupid and not coming on here to learn rather than seeking for a silent mode aggressive partner to engage reasonably and cooperate. I’m finding this a difficult lesson to learn, with shameful outcomes for my own urge for a reasonable engagement.
It’s been days of this silence, aggressive silence even ignoring my presence when I’m holding our son or simple things like asking to use the loo e.g I’m letting you know i really need the loo please can you be quicker?
She’s keeping him our son in soaking wet clothes for half an hour I gently ask if I should get a towel met with anger and aggression and defensiveness, I’ll get the towel he’s not been out for ages shortly after it’s f u this snd that... .I remain calm but I do implore: please don’t speak like this to me or you can’t talk like this to people... .
this is days of behaviour like this ignoring me when I’m there and our son is in the room it’s extraordinary as if pretending I don’t exist- I find this the hardest I worry about my sons experience of this alternate distorted reality she creates.
So it came to last night and though I was trying to meditate and I’d asked her to keep the music down just a little and close the door so we could concentrate whilst she bathed our son. Of course I’m totally ignored, I ask her to cooperate ... .anyway right now I’m thinking why didn’t I just get on and meditate and not bother about the surroundings? I must have known that she’s call the police to push me away so I feel angry at my self for not being more focused on avoiding conflict. I’m feeling confused and ashamed waking up from all this at my friends place. It’s like with all her threats and coercion demands and aggression she sets herself up as a natural consequence eg when I point out how aggressive she is to me and swearing at me, your getting what you deserve or well shut the f up then or as long as you are talking that’s what you’ll get. and this triggers me I’m like no your decisions are not  a natural consequence they’re your decisions snd dysfunctionsl behaviour. However whilst this keeps me sane as she Gaslighting me it doesn’t solve the bigger issue of getting her to realise her issues are her s and not me and getting her to treatment.