Separation, divorce, annulment (Catholic discussion)

[BetterLanes]

I eventually got to have a conversation with my canon law expert contact. The clickbait headline for this post is ":)ivorce not necessarily a sin, says Catholic Church."

So I thought the Church had this backwards in making you commit the sin of civil divorce before going into the annulment process which would tell you if it was a sin or not (at least in this country - in Italy an annulment counts as a civil divorce). I queried this with my contact and he said it's not the civil divorce that is the sin, because the Church doesn't actually recognize it on a spiritual level - to the Church you would be a separated married couple. [BL thinks at this point: Wait what?]  So that is why the annulment process is usually only relevant if you want to remarry in the Church.

This needs to be seriously nuanced as my contact was looking at this from the typical situation of a couple seeking or having already done remarriage and needing an annulment, and here the main sin issue is the public act of remarriage. Civil divorce is considered sinful for some reasons and situations as we will see shortly. But I had no idea at all that the Church thought civil divorce could be morally okay depending on the situation.

This is from the canon law regarding separation - www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P45.HTM
Can.  1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.
[Also from that page, did you know there was a six month deadline for splitting up after discovering adultery? Me neither!]

This is from the canon law regarding divorce -
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM
2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. [footnote is 1151-1155, i.e. the page linked above about separation]
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
[You can read here what it is the Church thinks is sinful about civil divorce.]

Well, color BL gobsmacked, this was entirely news to me. I then Googled, found, and binge-read everything under "Resources" on this beautiful website by Rose Sweet, starting here:
www.catholicsdivorce.com/Is-it-a-sin-to-divorce
This and the other Resources have an explanation of all the nuances of what does make a civil divorce sinful and what you are supposed to do before taking that step. I have bought her book which should show up today.

Unexpectedly pushed into the place of second most interesting thing in that conversation was the canon law expert's pointing out that for personality disorders to be grounds for an annulment, there needs to be sufficient weight of evidence that the disorder was present at the time of the marriage and affected the validity of the individual's consent. This could (and usually would) include medical evidence and also evidence from those who knew the couple at the time of the marriage.

I hope this is of interest. I can't necessarily follow up much on this thread till next week, by the way. I do recommend that website to Catholics wanting to know more.

BetterLanes

[formflier]

I'm not a Catholic (I'm Baptist variety).  At one of my shore commands my chaplain was Catholic and it was very interesting to have discussions with him.

A few impressions that should give you hope.  

The Catholic church and their rules seem very thoughtful and seem to have a purpose that is "logically consistent" (certainly as compared to some Baptist "rules".

The church has experts (like you have apparently talked to) that seem to focus on consistency of the rules and interpretation of those rules.

So... if civil divorce is possible and not a sin, I think you will find a clear set of answers AND how to go about partaking in that process.  Process seems to be big in the catholic church... .I'm a "process" guy... .so I respect that.

I would advise you to check with several experts to make sure you are getting the same answer, but I would be shocked if you get much variation in answer.

Best to you... FF

PS:  
 An example of "illogical" Baptist rules.  Many churches forbid drinking of any kind because "the Bible says it's a sin" (ummm... .no... .it doesn't... .drunkenness yes, but drinking is not)  So... in one of my first experiences with one of these really conservative churches and the senior pastor was "pushing back" against my reluctance to join... .I explained my conundrum.

"By your rules... .if Jesus came back to earth and performed one of his miracles (turning water into wine) an he drank some and some of your members drank some, you would have to kick Jesus and your members out of your church... or choose not to follow your constitution.  That doesn't seem logical or wise... .

He conceded I had a point... .

I doubt you would find silliness like that in the Catholic church.

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier! I love process too and it does seem from Rose Sweet's website that there is an established process for handling people in this situation. Now I know that exists I can go ahead and get into it and see what happens.

I think my problem was I didn't know that was a thing at all - there is a lot of talk lately about how to deal with Catholics who have already divorced and remarried (as my contact said, this is the presenting sinful issue), but I have never heard any discussion in church of marriage difficulties and separation. Or of marriage or relationships at all, actually. There is the sacrament of confession, but that's about confessing your own sins, it's not set up for telling about other people's sins towards you. Catholic Marriage Care have not yet provided any help after 6 months now of waiting.  So I guess what we have here is not a failure of the process but a failure to advertise the process. I can see why not advertising it would have apparent moral benefits for the church as a whole, but for individuals, well, I was very low indeed, and there might be many other people out there in the same mental situation or who left the Church because of it. I will be sure to explain this to whoever ends up listening. (In a nice way of course )

Best wishes,
BetterLanes

PS About the drinking, good answer! There are a number of Catholic rules that I think are as much as or more for the good of society than directly based on the Bible. I think maybe that is what you have here and I think that is fair enough as long as you say so. I think it would be perfectly legitimate for a church to say "no drinking at all because alcoholism is a big problem in society, we want to dissociate from it completely, and we want ex-alcoholics to be able to participate fully in church services and socials without fear." That would then not be a silly ask at all. But if you label all drinking as intrinsically sinful you'll have a hard time properly proving that from the Bible as you say.

[formflier]

So... from one process guy to another... .my advice would be to clarify how far you can go in the process by "investigating" and "preparing" and that you understand precisely the point where you start "filing" or "participating" in the process.

Very similar to talking to a lawyer about divorce and actually filing the divorce.

Then... let's perhaps back up here and talk about your "real" goals.  My understanding is that you desire healing in your marriage... right?

My understanding is that catholic marriage care hasn't been responsive or hasn't worked... right?  I would put more energy over there... and make sure you have "exhausted" that avenue.  Especially if you are waiting.

Similar to my situation:  I thought there was an avenue for the church we attend to help.  We went to their counseling and I'm convinced there is not an avenue there, they simply don't understand PDs (it's actually more complicated than that... .but that will do for now)

I would think that the "annulment process" would flow better if you can show them that you have done the "healing process" without success or that you wife has refused.


FF

PS  I agree... they meant no harm with their church constitution, it was just not "thought through".  Also, the senior pastor was confused because it wasn't like I wanted to drink... at least a lot.  I'm a fan of "craft brewing", so from  time to time, when I can get a ride or Uber I will go check out some locally brewed beer. 

OK... another FF rabbit trail.  I certainly had a wonderful life/career flying off aircraft carriers... .so it is rare to meet people I am jealous of.  So... I've done some Uber driving off and on over the years, mainly to meet people and talk... .and make some extra bucks... but mainly the social part. 

Anyway I picked this guy up and was chatting with him and his wife.  I was taking him to a local brewery.  I asked what he did for a living and he said he was a journalist for a beer magazine.  (my interest level went way up)

So... I'm like... "wait a minute... .you get paid to travel around the country and drink beer... and write about it?"  He and his wife both smiled  "Yes... I get paid well to do that... ."

All I could say is "Nice work! "

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

Thanks again! I don't think I have actually got to the point of deciding what I want yet. It's pretty much the one month anniversary today of me finding out that BPD was a thing at all. It's been a wild ride of a month!

I've been focusing on finding out what my options are and discovering what help is available, rather than spending time introspecting what I actually want. I'm not really much further on in that respect than I was a month and a day ago thinking "I can't continue being in this marriage as is with no change for the remainder of my life". I will get to that introspection, but as it happens, as far as I can judge from Rose Sweet's website, the Church separation process expects you to have attempted joint marriage counselling as an early step anyway. So one next step is to ask on here after the weekend what approaches might be safe to raise that as a prospect with my H, from a position of having never seriously asked him for a significant behavior or relationship change before. (Apart from adding a child, and that was really traumatic for him.)

Another next step is to identify someone in the Church who does have the necessary knowledge to discuss my situation, as you say that's important. This would be the equivalent of the lawyer to discuss with. I have been waiting since January for a solo phone appointment with Catholic Marriage Care and have chased up a few times with them, had a few callbacks saying "you're still on our list", but nothing yet. On the plus side, I only now know exactly what I would want to ask and say if I finally get those calls, but I won't rely on them to be that person to discuss with. I'll look around for someone else.

The Church process from what I read is really more a kind of spiritual counselling system up to the point where you file for an annulment, then it becomes the real deal with a special court and everything.

Back after the weekend,
BetterLanes

PS I agree, best job ever! Also, yes, craft beer is surely the least sinful of drinks.

[formflier]

OK... that post helps.

You seem at a very "rational" place with this (this being ? is this BPD thing).  I'm sure your emotions are still raw as well... .hang in there.

I'm going to suggest you "investigate" and "gather data" for 6 months.  Part of gathering data is using tools on this website and seeing how you wife "reacts" to them.

Here is the thing.  Most people find there are enormous changes they can make for the better, without involving their partner at all.  Use the "dance" analogy.

If you start dancing to a different tune and refuse to do the "old dance" when your partner encourages you to do so... .well... they will eventually start doing a different dance.

This is the good part about "fear of abandonment".  They don't want to lose you, so if that means doing a different dance... .so be it.

This isn't a precise method... but it usually leads to "more stability"

I will tell you the first time I "held" a boundary and it went "textbook fashion"... .exactly how the "old timers" on here said it would... .that was massive for me.  It gave me hope... and energy to do more.

You will then hopefully get a sense of how much improvement can be done without your wife "having a vote".  Then you can see if she actually wants to improve.

This is a marathon... .not a sprint. 

You are obviously a person of deep faith and part of that faith is honoring your marriage.  That's going to take a while to work through.  I obviously hope for a good and healing outcome.  However, people that have eventually decided to split seem to feel better knowing they gave it a "full chance" and "left no stone unturned".

FF

[LongGame]

I am in this period of learning and discernment myself. Although mine has been escalated somewhat by a recent suicide threat on the part of my wife and total dysregulation towards the children. My T after consulting with her T and our priest has suggested that I give an ultimatum. I am not sure what this looks like. He seemed to indicate either she goes to marriage and family counseling (she refuses to even talk to me- six months of almost complete silent treatment) or I file for legal separation. My priest seems to discourage the latter. I am trying to discern what is a strong enough ultimatum without triggering a massive extinction burst.
Lots of discernment in the queue for me this week. I don't think this will end well whatever decision I end up making.
I know legal separation is allowable under canon law. If this happens I intend on remaining celibate unless she seeks annulment or passes away; this is morally permissible in the Catholic Church. The only way I think we could receive an annulment is if she was in fact diagnosed, and it was shown she had BPD at the time of marriage, which means she would have to face her worst fear (that something is wrong with her), which may just be the only thing that brings us together again. As I'm typing this, I am starting to think this may be a solution. IDK. It's a conundrum for sure.

[formflier]

LongGame,

Can I encourage you to take several "smaller steps" towards an "ultimatum".  Can you put off making a decision for at least a month and focus on educating yourself (we can help) about what you face.

There are books and resources that we can share... .to help you "deliver" an ultimatum so it has a better chance of being "heard".

Thoughts?

I'll look for your other posts!

Best to you!

FF

[LongGame]

LongGame,

Can I encourage you to take several "smaller steps" towards an "ultimatum".  Can you put off making a decision for at least a month and focus on educating yourself (we can help) about what you face.

There are books and resources that we can share... .to help you "deliver" an ultimatum so it has a better chance of being "heard".

Thoughts?

I'll look for your other posts!

Best to you!

FF

This episode has been going on for almost exactly one year... .
We have a lot of children which makes it difficult.
She has created a narrative in her head which I think she truly believes, of which almost nothing is true. I have been painted black, and this has been the focus of this episode. She had a previous episode several years ago but she couldn't pinpoint a reason for wanting to leave; it was a lot of general fear around people out to get her and me not protecting her; we lived as brother and sister for many months and then she snapped out of it one day. There have been several interim episodes, some of which have been focused on other people.
This one though- this one is bad. I need to take action to protect the children as she has started to paint the older ones black because they see this for what it is. It is a full out distortion campaign.
I have read SWOE (and gone through the workbook in its entirety), I Hate You Don't Leave Me, Splitting, Loving Someone with BPD, the whole bit. I have been in therapy for the better part of a year, so has she. I have learned not to JADE and be validating.
She has shut me out completely, given me the silent treatment for the better part of 6-8 months, and the only times she talks to me are when she is exploding or asking for money. She has drained our bank account several times and has racked up a ton of debt. She is now dysregulating on the children. Severely. It is now crossing the line into abuse.
I am not sure an ultimatum is the best thing to do; I know it has the potential to make things worse, but she is making things worse all on her own and then blaming me and the kids for it.
I think I have done a good job taking steps to make things better but ultimately I am only in control of myself, my actions, and the steps I am taking to protect our children.
Spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and seeking good counsel is the way to go I believe, but ultimately I have to do something. Suggestions are welcome.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier and LongGame,

FF, thanks for encouraging the considered approach! This might be what I end up doing. I have some situational time constraints at the moment. BTW, I'm female - H is my husband - don't worry, I know I write like a man! My H said I address and solve problems like a man (a rare compliment), I skip the whole complaining and empathy step and dive straight for the solutions. Rational as you say. I'm pointing that out just in case you think the power balance in the marriage is different than what it actually is.

LongGame, did you check out the website I linked to? It is worthwhile. I have bought her book but not read it yet. The site indicates that you pretty much have to have attempted marriage counselling before getting a separation processed - though I guess that a flat out refusal by the other party would count as that. My MC said if they spot red flags in a joint session, like one party not taking responsibility for their own behavior, they would stop that anyway and recommend "separate work". So even if you feel that isn't going to be worthwhile to fix anything, you can think of it as extra evidence gathering by professionals, and it might not last long. I also read somewhere, maybe on that site, that as part of the annulment process you have the right to request a full psychological examination of the other party. I have pressed my contact for information on this, and there is no guarantee of an annulment for BPD, it goes on the weight of evidence. That *usually* includes expert testimony (medical) according to my contact, and also testimony from friends and family who knew you at the time of the marriage. I would like to have a guarantee before starting anything but we won't get it. I think this will have to be a matter of faith - you know the truth about the marriage and so does God, and the annulment process is carefully set up to get the truth out there.

Both, regarding ultimatums, I promised my (solo) marriage counsellor I'd post this week asking about what to say in the event of an emergency situation. I have never said seriously and explicitly to my H that there is any deep-rooted issue in the marriage or with his behavior, I've only ever made specific requests for a few important non-behavior related things I wanted, which typically provoked a bad reaction. He is not aware I now have a therapist, a marriage counsellor appointment, a Catholic marriage counsellor appointment pending, a book on annulments, four books on BPD, membership of this site, and a bunch of other online activity. I have also concealed all the payments for this, so the account and total he keeps in a spreadsheet for my personal expenditure (I tell him this verbally) is now pretty fraudulent. He is, to be fair, right that I am quite poor at handling money, and it probably won't be long before I slip up somewhere in my false accounting!

So I need to work out soon what to say if/when I'm busted - as you put it well LongGame, "what is a strong enough ultimatum without triggering a massive extinction burst." I don't know whether that would go inwards or outwards, both are possible. I'll likely only get one line out before the reaction starts (based on past experience) so I need to make it the right one. The best candidate seems to be something like "we have to get marriage counselling" but the obvious followup is "why", and then it can only escalate. My MC suggested explaining that I feel unhappy in the marriage, but I see little evidence that he would view my feelings as a valid reason for doing anything, and I'm more likely to get blamed for having them. An alternative is to lie (eg claim some other reason for the financial discrepancy if that's what is discovered, or put it just on the therapist for "my own issues" and buy some more time. I'll ask that on a separate thread anyway, with some suggestions.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

BTW, I'm female - H is my husband - don't worry, I know I write like a man! My H said I address and solve problems like a man (a rare compliment), 

Can you expand on the time constraints some... .they may or may not be relevant.

Sorry about getting the pronouns wrong.  It's always good to understand your natural way of approaching things, so you can be deliberate about working on your ability to use other approaches. 

FF

[LongGame]

Thx BL; I did read through almost the entirety of the site you linked to; it is quite good and explains the truth of the Faith without compromise, which is rare in Catholic "divorce" media!
I did see what you mentioned about the counseling before separation. This is actually what my T recommended as Part 1 of the ultimatum; which he recommended I do with our priest present. We have been seeing a priest for MC since the inception of this episode but it has fallen off at the request of my wife for the past six months.
So much of this is actually behind us at this point; I have tried everything I think I can.
It's a lot to bear.

[formflier]

So much of this is actually behind us at this point; I have tried everything I think I can.
 

Might want to start a new thread to "inventory" what you have tried and your impression of what has worked or not worked.

What is the biggest success so far?  How did it affect the hope you have for your future?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Formflier, no need to be sorry, I took that as a compliment too!

The time constraints were originally due to (1) needing to decide whether or not to sign up for participating in a local schools ministry for a further two years (deadline about August for deciding that), and (2) my daughter starting at a new school in September, so this summer being a good time to kick off any extreme changes in the relationship, particularly if there is the potential for those to lead to relocation. I've since added (3) various clandestine activities as mentioned above that may come to light at any point. And to be honest, (4) I doubt I can sit on all this much longer knowing what I now do. I really doubt we will get through this summer without some sort of a confrontation moment from either (3) or (4), and also this summer is the most convenient time for that to happen due to (1) and (2).

LongGame, that's interesting, I didn't know you could get MC directly from a priest. That might be an idea to try rather than waiting on Catholic Marriage Care any longer. I'd be interested too to read about what you have tried jointly, I have yet to try much of anything actually involving my H.

BetterLanes

[formflier]

Have I mentioned "love must be tough" by Dobson (google that will get you to Amazon)

I would encourage you to move that to the top of your reading list.

There is a spiritual element to it and much of it will likely strike you as counter intuitive.


I'm all for "confrontation", especially when you have prepared and are ready.  So... .if you think it's coming... .I encourage you to get ready.

Also... you never know when YOU will be the one ready to "start something"... again... get ready first and then be considerate of what works for you.

I wait on your response before adding more or asking more.

FF

[Stolen]

Just to weigh in with my experience in obtaining my annulment. When over two decades of struggles with xW's inherited troubles began to spiral, I sought out the counsel of the priest who had officiated at my wedding.  Never one to sit one-on-one with clergy, I was nervous, but after a three hour conversation this attitude was changed forever. During the conversation, which was while I was still married,  Fr. B related the situation to a "train ride to a train wreck" and that it could be expected to get much worse.  He brought up the eventual process of nullity, which was probably the furthest thing from my mind at that time.   

Fast forward to xW filing for divorce, and that becoming final years later.  Devastated at losing my  family, my children to alienation (I've posted much on this subject prior), I visited my local church for information.  I met a bright, young priest who was well versed in psychological issues, including BPD.  There was no dogma involved, this was a very caring and practical effort.   I was put in touch with the "Tribunal" that handles annulments, and assigned an advocate  to guide me through the process. 

I can't tell you how supportive my advocate was, and how "positive" the nearly year-long process leading to my annulment was.  In fact, this was a major factor in me reconnecting with my faith,  an aspect of me that had been shunted aside along with friends, family etc., via the well-known impact of dancing on eggshells for so long.

When my petition was finally heard in the Canon court, there was a judge and a psychologist present.  Personality disorders were clearly in their area of expertise, so different from the experience I had in the Hell of Divorce court.   

[BetterLanes]

Hi Stolen,

Thanks, that's really interesting! I'm sorry for what you've been through, I know it's harder for men in the divorce process. I'm really glad you got such good help from your local church. I'm keen to know more about your xW's involvement in the annulment process. Did your xW have a medical diagnosis when you went into the process? Had the psychologist interviewed her? Did she submit a response herself?

Hi Formflier,

Thanks, I've just ordered the book and I'll take a look ASAP! It does sound like it will be very helpful for managing a confrontation. I'll post soon too, hopefully later today or tomorrow, I promised my MC I would before our next call.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Thanks, I've just ordered the book and I'll take a look ASAP! 

Hey... .I'll pass along some FF homework for you!  When you get the book... start a new thread about it here.  Post your observations and thoughts as you read... and your questions.

The book is not "about" BPDish people, but you will see lots of similarities.   So, when it comes time for "applications", I would encourage you to work through that with people on here to make sure "BPDish nuance" is added appropriately. 

I'm looking forward to what you have to say about the book... .it was very impactfull to me.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Good idea Formflier! I actually ordered it on Kindle so it's waiting for me right now as soon as I can carve out some time. I think from what you and others have said about it I should read through it before picking out my best one-liner. I'll ask the MC if I can get an extension on her assignment to do yours first!

Yes the "BPDish nuance" is definitely going to be important and the reason why I want to run my ideas by the board. The MC made some suggestions for wording which I felt right away would be great for regular people but not work for BPs (they were based on my feelings, so not a valid argument for anything). I hope the book will get me nearer to some better ideas, and also point out some general principles of what it means (including spiritually) to allow unhealthy relationship dynamics to continue.

BL x

[formflier]

BPD nuance and "religion".

Most of this is so that you can actually be "heard" and you don't waste your effort in communications.

Now... .a preview for you and other "religious types".  Did God have lots to say about "being heard"?  Did he encourage people to take "the truth" and say it directly to a person?

Or...

Did God (via the Bible) encourage people to communicate their truth in a certain way... .or in a certain order?

What "principle" comes to mind?

FF

[Stolen]

Hi Stolen,

 I'm really glad you got such good help from your local church. I'm keen to know more about your xW's involvement in the annulment process. Did your xW have a medical diagnosis when you went into the process? Had the psychologist interviewed her? Did she submit a response herself?

xW was alerted by the Tribunal at all major touch points of the process, and encouraged to comment.  She never communicated a single word. And she never had a medical Dx, since she also avoided those pesky doctors.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Stolen,

Thanks, that's really encouraging. So you got your annulment without any involvement at all from xW based on the evidence only you presented, and with no diagnosis. It was also a long time between the marriage and the annulment for you, which is a concern for evidence gathering, but that aspect worked out. I read that the process was generally a positive experience and quite therapeutic for the participants and I'm glad that was the case for you!

BetterLanes x

[Stolen]

So you got your annulment without any involvement at all from xW based on the evidence only you presented, and with no diagnosis. It was also a long time between the marriage and the annulment for you, which is a concern for evidence gathering, but that aspect worked out.
I read that the process was generally a positive experience and quite therapeutic for the participants and I'm glad that was the case for you!

Yes, over 26 years since wedding date, and zero input from xW.  So - how can you go back and show "pre-existing" issues that would invalidate a marriage?  Remember that nullity is not designed to wipe away a marriage-gone-bad, but a process to nullify a marriage that never should/could have been.   So how does this happen?

Like the process that gets discussed so often on this site - by looking at our role in the a deux and taking ownership of it.  Specifically, by showing "our" failure to execute due diligence to ensure the validity of the marriage.  In the lingua franca - revisiting the red flags of the past, and understanding how they relate/related to the resulting toxicity.

It wound of being a soul-searching deep dive, to come to the conclusion it could never have worked, regardless of how much dancing upon the eggshells was offered.   

The required witness statements certainly become a challenge after such a long time - how many family/friend relationships do you have that predated the wedding?  Don't let that dissuade you - you will be guided through this. 

And yes - a positive and therapeutic process to be sure.  But also one that will have you examine yourself, perhaps deeper than ever before.  Since we know so well - you can only fix yourself. 

Peace

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Stolen! I remembered I didn't reply to you yet. I read and valued that very much. Thank you for the encouragement. I soon need to tell the whole story to a suitable priest and get his advice like you did. The priest who officiated at our wedding has actually left the priesthood now, my canon law contact is a busy guy and not local so I doubt he could do that, and I don't want to talk to the parish priest just yet since my H and I are both active in the church. I was hoping Catholic Marriage Care could do this but that hasn't happened yet. If push comes to shove it will have to be our parish priest.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

 and I don't want to talk to the parish priest just yet since my H and I are both active in the church.  

I'm curious... .why not talk to the parish priest?

I would think he would be interested in the "health" of marriages in his parish.  Perhaps he can also push some of the other processes to go faster.

Thoughts?

FF

[Stolen]

I'm curious... .why not talk to the parish priest?

I would think he would be interested in the "health" of marriages in his parish.  Perhaps he can also push some of the other processes to go faster.

Thoughts?

FF

My thought?  I am all for going local - I was introduced to the concept by "my" priest of 20+ years ago, but the process was all initiated and executed locally, with clerical and lay people who I had never met prior.  This will not be new to them, I found the modern Church to be well versed in the challenges of society... . 

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier and Stolen,

I guess because the parish priest is a "real person" who we both know. Nobody at all in our joint lives knows yet that I have any complaint about the marriage. It's only been six weeks or so since I let myself look at this as an issue that I could actually work on by my own actions (rather than just God's problem to sort out somehow at the right time, which is also happening on schedule, but I hadn't expected there was a way for that to involve my actions).

I haven't talked to any "real people" for a variety of reasons. Pride is a chunk of it I expect. It's embarrassing to describe the interactions in the relationship and to be someone that tolerates them, and it's embarrassing to ask for help when I try so hard to project the image of a competent and strong person.

Also, I would have to be convinced enough that I'm right to have a problem at all, which I find it hard to do having been so long in the relationship. I have previous for crazy. Talking to a "real person" requires me to be sufficiently convinced that the problem is not only in my head and my character as I'm told.

Also, I have the idea that I could use the fact of not having told any "real people" as a bargaining chip to try to calm my H down in a confrontation and give him a reason to behave calmly and rationally. I don't know if this would work, but it's the only chip I can think of that might matter to him in a conflict situation - it would make it easier for him to believe that I have the problem just in my head and he needn't accept anything right away.

Also, I have always had a very fundamental conviction that other humans can't or won't or don't want to help me with my problems, which my marriage has only served to reinforce. That is starting to break down now mainly thanks to you all here, but it is still a big driver for my behaviors and attitudes.

Also, I feel like if I tell a "real person" that is a very final irrevocable step and I might as well have decided to get a divorce, especially if my H becomes aware I have done that. It feels like I can't go back from there and like it will precipitate a huge crisis. It's the scary step. My H is very angry and stressed and quite cold at the moment with kind of a mean edge to his comments and behaviors. My MC says I am probably "leaking" in terms of my feelings and attitudes so my H knows on some level there is something going on, but nothing is explicit at the moment. I need to maintain that for another two weeks for my D to finish school. So I have a couple more weeks to identify the right "real person" and a couple more sessions with each of the T and MC to get some additional support that I'm not the crazy one.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

BetterLanes,

We think very much alike.  I have memories of not wanting to tell others.  Once I read SWOE and realized this type of behavior is much more common that I could have imagined... .that helped... somewhat.

I'm going to assume that you've been around lots of priests... right?  Where would you "rank" your current "real person" priest? 

I have a few thoughts for you to consider... .

You seem like a very logical... rational person.  That's good in many respects.  I think... that you are overthinking the disorder to try to "keep" bargaining chips. 

The logical and rational impact of his actions is that you tell.  He gets to feel how he feels.  And you get to be "upfront" with people and perhaps come across sources of help that you hadn't considered.

However this relationship turns out for you (and for me to be upfront with you... .I'm rooting for you and the relationship to "turn the corner" to something better).

The logical and rational impact of seeking help and involving others (appropriately) is that manytimes situations get better.  I can remember me "not wanting" things to get better and then other times wanting it more than anything in the world.  Right now I'm "hopeful yet realistic".

The logical and rational impact of involving others is it will force choices and clarify things (over time).

I'm certainly interested in your responses but a preview of my thoughts is I want to build you a support system of "real people".  Some of those "real people" will "know" about your reality and others will be people you enjoy.

There is only one way to figure out where your priest is... .or should be.  I think you will find the conversation liberating...


FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

Thanks, I do really appreciate your support! The parish priest is a good guy, and I'm sure he would want to know. I know it's logical and rational to get this out in the open. Two more weeks and I have a good clear space to do that. I don't doubt that the T and the MC will tell me next week to do the same (I've told them both we have to stop sessions for the summer and that will be their last session for the meantime). The concerns are for my side, that I haven't had long to fully internalize the fact that I have "permission" to do this and may cave when it comes to the moment, and for my H's side, that he has very, very little emotional resilience and may act out or in in a more extreme way than previously observed. I have wondered about enlisting a "real person" to actually be physically present for the conversation, which would help to deal with both of those concerns. I don't know to what extent that would help, or just cause another problem.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I can't imagine how "real people" would "really" hurt.

Don't buy into disordered thinking... .

FF