Boundaries still work...I almost didn't notice

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

 
It was about a week ago... perhaps a few days more, that right before bed (wife and I were both in jetted hot tub) that she demanded to know what I had been doing all day... where had I been... .etc etc.

Since I was "in my bubble" to calm for sleep and it had been a challenging day (for reasons other than her) I was honest about my feelings, said I wasn't able to discuss it right now, that it was a subject for me to handle when I was "at my best" and if she was still interested, she should approach me tomorrow during middle of the day, whenever she was ready to listen.

There was some light grumping on her part... .I went on to sleep.

Then a few days later she wanted to complain about me "never telling her stuff" or "following up".  I tried to keep it short and reminded her I had left ball in her court.  She claims that once she has asked... she should never ask again and it's up to me to come to her.

"That doesn't work for me" was my only response... I didn't get drawn into a big thing she apparently wanted me part of.

Well... .few days later we were relaxing in the middle of the day and in a completely nice... empathetic way "Hey... you never told me what you had such a hard time about the other day... "

Honestly it was the tone and demeanor which was so much better.  I stayed relaxed... we discussed it... .non issue.

It wasn't until I was thinking about things to write this morning that I remembered it.

Anyway... .1 encouragement and 1 question from me.

Encouragement:  Hold to your boundaries (which should be your values)... .it may take time, but they will pay off.

Question:  What do you guys think of my boundary.  A long time ago she was "the prosecutor" and I "was the witness on the stand"... .I decided in my mind that I wasn't going to do that anymore.  So... .I erected boundaries around when I would discuss sensitive things. 

Almost never before bed.
When I'm at my best (or close)
When she is kind

FF

[formflier]

 
It was about a week ago... perhaps a few days more, that right before bed (wife and I were both in jetted hot tub) that she demanded to know what I had been doing all day... where had I been... .etc etc.

Since I was "in my bubble" to calm for sleep and it had been a challenging day (for reasons other than her) I was honest about my feelings, said I wasn't able to discuss it right now, that it was a subject for me to handle when I was "at my best" and if she was still interested, she should approach me tomorrow during middle of the day, whenever she was ready to listen.

There was some light grumping on her part... .I went on to sleep.

Then a few days later she wanted to complain about me "never telling her stuff" or "following up".  I tried to keep it short and reminded her I had left ball in her court.  She claims that once she has asked... she should never ask again and it's up to me to come to her.

"That doesn't work for me" was my only response... I didn't get drawn into a big thing she apparently wanted me part of.

Well... .few days later we were relaxing in the middle of the day and in a completely nice... empathetic way "Hey... you never told me what you had such a hard time about the other day... "

Honestly it was the tone and demeanor which was so much better.  I stayed relaxed... we discussed it... .non issue.

It wasn't until I was thinking about things to write this morning that I remembered it.

Anyway... .1 encouragement and 1 question from me.

Encouragement:  Hold to your boundaries (which should be your values)... .it may take time, but they will pay off.

Question:  What do you guys think of my boundary.  A long time ago she was "the prosecutor" and I "was the witness on the stand"... .I decided in my mind that I wasn't going to do that anymore.  So... .I erected boundaries around when I would discuss sensitive things. 

Almost never before bed.
When I'm at my best (or close)
When she is kind

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

My immediate thought is... .
Maybe this is best framed by... .

“Holding to the Values firmly” (vs boundaries)

The boundaries can be more fluid as we evolve as persons or as couples will naturally evolve or devolve.

What remains static mostly... .is the values... .
How we hold steadfast may need to look different depending on how life changes... .as life seems to do.

I think... .thinking of it this way... .  (that the values are the static part and the boundaries are the moons that rotate around that)
Can maybe also help you stay center of the push pull balance that seems to be working for you guys... .idk tho... .just thinking out loud here.

[Notwendy]

I think you did well on this. You established that tub time is when you need to relax and not have serious discussions, and you followed up by having the discussion later, so you showed your wife ( with action ) that there is a time to have the serious talks.

( Ecclesiastes 3- see you even have a Bible verse to back this one up   )

I have to giggle a bit about your tub boundaries. Mine are like that old "Calgon take me away" commercial where the busy mom finally gets a few moments to herself with nobody trying to talk to her. That is mine. At first, my H would see this as time to get me to himself and come in and talk to me, but all I wanted was to be left alone. He takes this as a personal rejection. It isn't. If I just have some time to recharge, I am then better able to be available. It is self care for me- some "me" time at the end of the day. So the boundary is to leave me alone.

You could also set this as a boundary- tub time is alone. But we all know what goes on in your tub .

[formflier]

       

 

Moving right along.

FF

[Notwendy]

A little Venus and Mars idea-

For me, "talking" is a love language, a connection attempt. It isn't for my H. For my H it's sex. I think that can be a Venus/Mars thing or also different personalities.

If your wife is a talking connector, when you have a moment of alone time, and some intimacy, she may attempt to talk.

My attempting to talk to my H about serious things is emotionally stressful for him, so if he is thinking "alone" time with me, he doesn't want to talk.

He has also misinterpreted my attempts to talk as demanding something of him.

Many attempts on my part to talk were responded by putting it off- not now. I would get upset because there was just the not now- not an idea of when would be appropriate. So the "not now" eventually turned into not ever and I withdrew emotionally.

For my H, he assumed that if he connected with sex, I would too. Well, we had sex so why talk? But I didn't feel connected.

So, I applaud you for making the time to talk with your wife about what she wanted to talk about. I think this would be a great practice for both of you. Tub time is a no serious discussion time. But then, also have a time set where the two of you can talk. Once she knows there is a time for both, and you hold to both the boundary and the promise of a time to talk, this could be a good thing for both of you.

[Cat Familiar]

OK, I'll move right along... .

A long time ago she was "the prosecutor" and I "was the witness on the stand"

So well put, FF! This is exactly how I felt for years in my FOO and my first marriage. I felt totally obliged to "spill my guts" and at the same time, I felt "guilty" if I hadn't behaved 100% perfectly--and who can accomplish that on a regular basis?

After doing some years of counseling and learning that I don't need to be that accountable to others, I still lacked strong boundaries, so I became a "hostile witness" when questioned. What didn't occur to me was that I could simply leave the witness stand.

Good work, FF!   Thanks for the metaphor.

[Cat Familiar]

My attempting to talk to my H about serious things is emotionally stressful for him, so if he is thinking "alone" time with me, he doesn't want to talk.

He has also misinterpreted my attempts to talk as demanding something of him.

Many attempts on my part to talk were responded by putting it off- not now. I would get upset because there was just the not now- not an idea of when would be appropriate. So the "not now" eventually turned into not ever and I withdrew emotionally.

I've experienced this "not now" countless times. It can be extremely frustrating when there's a decision that needs to be made or some other timely issue that must be resolved.

My husband will never bring up things again once he's gotten me to back off. It would be nice if he'd agree to a set time about discussing it later, but there's usually never a good time. It's too late at night; it's too early in the morning; have to leave for an appointment; busy with something else; have a phone call to make, etc.

I think the reason he doesn't want to set a time to discuss is because he can never plan his emotional state that far in advance.

[formflier]

I think the reason he doesn't want to set a time to discuss is because he can never plan his emotional state that far in advance.

This is what I suspect for my wife.  My guess is she saw the tub time as "ok for her" (and it's ok if that is ok for her... .)

Notwendy's idea about having a "set time" or "knowing I can talk" sounds great, but in practice it is disastrous for us.

I think my wife will ruminate up until the "appointment" and then when I'm prepared to talk... .she is prepared to blow.

Hence... .the way I've done my "boundary" is to keep leaving it in her court... for her to approach me during the day when it's "likely" that I'll be at my best.

I love meetings... .knowing how much time I have to prepare... .knowing that I need to stop preparing and "chill out" for a bit before a meeting... .and then roll with it... in the meeting.

I get it other people just don't do it that way.

Any thoughts?  Any thoughts on how to improve "scheduled" meetings with my wife?

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure what to do with an indefinite "not now". I had to learn to respect my H's boundaries on "not now" but I can't make him talk. I tried to get the serious discussions going but if I asked a question his replies were slow, deliberate words as if he was thinking carefully about each word he would say. Then after a period of time of this, he'd look at his watch and say "See, I talk to you, we've been talking for 30 minutes" as if he'd paid his talking dues and wanted to be off the hook. It was uncomfortable for both of us. A book that helped me was "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" but being a talker myself is an adjustment when paired with a non talker.

I realized that the times he was spontaneously talking to me without carefully planning his words was when he was angry. The words were not comfortable to hear, but for once, he was actually talking.

Like Cat said- he is comfortable in situations where he is in control- like at work when the discussions are technical not emotional.  I don't think he has a good handle on identifying and speaking about emotions. He also gets uncomfortable when I emotionally react. I think it is a boundary thing. Early on in the marriage it felt like only positive emotions were allowed between us, but that isn't real for most people. He'd also put on a stoic face until he got angry.

One of our issues  now is that I basically don't talk to him about serious things. He doesn't like it. It isn't stonewalling, it just seems pointless to try to get words out of him that isn't going to offer. You can only try so many times  before just not trying anymore. Ironically, he misses this. I think at some level he enjoyed my efforts to talk- all my attention on trying to "help " him talk. Well, he's an adult and speaks quite well with people. If he wants to say something to me, he can.

So, FF, as you can see - the "not now" without a "when" for me feels like I'm being controlled. Basically he holds the cards to any talking and it now doesn't happen. I know part of it is that he isn't comfortable when I am emotional ( but I'm not over the top) and some talks are emotional. This isn't a business relationship, and intimate relationships involve all kinds of emotions. For you to not offer a "when" because of how your wife will ruminate and blow up is you controlling her emotions and reactions. I would say that is something you would have to manage your side of the fence if it happens. This is new behavior for both of you and it is a learning curve.

I will give my H credit for now allowing short, brief discussions. I don't hold back anymore out of fear of his reaction. He will often say something snarky back but he does hear me. I think the snarky is habit and I learned to let that one go. I think being less emotionally reactive had helped facilitate discussions between us. He's mentioned he feels he "can't talk to me" because you get emotional" but what I was reacting to were the snarky comments.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm not sure what to do with an indefinite "not now". I had to learn to respect my H's boundaries on "not now" but I can't make him talk. I tried to get the serious discussions going but if I asked a question his replies were slow, deliberate words as if he was thinking carefully about each word he would say. Then after a period of time of this, he'd look at his watch and say "See, I talk to you, we've been talking for 30 minutes" as if he'd paid his talking dues and wanted to be off the hook.

I totally get this, Notwendy. The slow, deliberate response--my husband puts his lawyer hat on and thinks that anything he says can (and will) be used against him. So tiresome to try and have a conversation with someone who is so proactively defensive.

Also any emotional response from me elicits a "You're angry" accusation from him, even enthusiastic words of agreement. I'm not an overtly emotional person--very much a thinker, not a feeler. And it galls me that he cannot handle any overt emotional reaction from me when we're having these sorts of discussions, yet he's free to let it all out. Yet another BPD hypocrisy. But that's the way it is and no point me haranguing about the "fairness of it all"--I'm quite capable of a poker face and an even verbal tone, so that's what I do and it works a lot better.

[Notwendy]

I think my H would make an excellent lawyer.  I grew weary of  the deliberate, speech where each word is slowly considered and spoken. I also know how to do the poker face and unemotional speech.  My H is very sensitive to any negative emotions on my part. H has even said " sometimes you speak to me like you speak to your mother". I am grateful he isn't like her, and I am much more comfortable with him than when I am with her, but sometimes I am not in the mood to deal with any issues and so use the tools I learned with her.

It is interesting to see how we "match " our partners in our FOO issues. They don't have to be the same issues. He does not have a BPD parent. He does have a father with anger issues who says cruel things when he is angry- but he is also a loving father who provided for his family and was devoted to them. Over time, I observed how co-dependent MIL is- she basically managed FIL's temper. Both H and I grew up to be very sensitive to any distress in family members- if not my mother or his father, other members could set them off. If my mama wasn't happy- nobody was happy. Same with FIL. It seems we both took the discomfort of negative emotions into our own relationship.