Is FF becoming "emotionally sober"?

[formflier]

I've been trying to write some sort of elegant and thoughtful post about this topic for a few days.  It's just not coming together.

So... I'll just put out what I have... .

Notwendy mentioned gaining and keeping "emotional sobriety" as a big part of improving her life and marriage.

As you guys know... .things have been interesting since the summer schedule started and it's caused me to think "that I don't care as much anymore"  (but... that just didn't seem to sit right with me)

Anyway... .things like not backing down about "do unto others" (yet I wasn't "fighting", even though I could see my wife's "bait"

Several times my wife "ended" the discussion... .and I "floated along" right into a "logistics discussion" or some other "thing about nothing that matters".  Perhaps I noticed she was perplexed or something.

Then she would restart "do unto others" and I'd hold (yet not attack).

It seemed to more "intellectually" bother me... .than like "piss me off" (this is hard to describe).

So... .I'll hush and ask some questions of others that have "become more emotionally sober".

Does any of this ring true?

Is it possible or "probable" that instead of "not caring" about my wife and our relationship that "i'm more sober"?

What has this journey looked liked for others?

So... on the one hand my marriage is no longer "fulfilling".  How do I figure out if that is good thing or bad thing (again... likely not the best words... help me here).

FF

[pearlsw]

Hi formflier,

This is a very interesting question!

In my situation I have a hard time getting the space to think and sort out which parts of my relationship are hard to deal with because of BPD traits and which parts are just this relationship going a bit stale.

I've said before it is like my SO has overcharged his relationship credit card with me and I can't give more credit at this time, not until I see some kind of change.

Maybe by emotional sobriety you just mean being able to stand face to face with the reality of the situation? (And not get overly emotional about it.)

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Notwendy]

FF, for me it isn't an all or nothing thing, just moments of realizing that I didn't react like I used to.

It's a work in progress. It's also about being aware of vulnerabilities. They say an alcoholic is always and alcoholic and staying sober is a one day at a time thing. One drink can bring them off the wagon. This doesn't mean failure or self flogging for making that mistake. It does mean to avoid that drink as much as possible and if you fall, get back up.

I am not an alcoholic  but I see emotional sobriety in a similar manner. First one has to recognize the "drink" and not take it, but one could feel restless and irritated by not doing it or upset and insulted when ignoring what someone said. One day I was on the phone with BPD mother and she said one of the things that often triggered me. I didn't react, but not only that- I didn't even feel like reacting. I just heard what she said and let it go. This is when I realized I was emotionally sober in that moment. The "drink" was right in front of me. I didn't pick it up, and I didn't even feel anything by not taking it. Then, I also began to notice these kinds of moments in my marriage.

This doesn't mean I have not fallen off the wagon,  but I see it right away and can make the correction fast and I also do it less and less.

While I am proud of the moments that I am more emotionally sober, I do not allow myself to think I don't have the vulnerability. When an alcoholic says " I can handle one drink" they are heading for trouble.

This poem ( common in recovery discussions)  is a description of moving towards emotional sobriety - with the hole being the drama, arguments, circular discussions, JADE etc.


I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... .I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

[Cat Familiar]

I've had the feeling of "not caring as much anymore" but that's not a prelude to dissolution of my marriage. It's that I just don't care to engage in conflict and I'm not so easily triggered.

I like the concept of "meta"--being able to step aside from the drama and have perspective from a distance. In doing so, I see signs of dysregulation much earlier and can more easily shift gears and try new strategies to keep things from going off the rails. And so far, so good. As I do this more frequently, I'm getting self-reinforced for seeing the big picture and not wading into the weeds.

And in the process, my relationship is repairing itself somewhat. I don't feel the contempt I once did and since I'm not making things worse, I don't see the bad behavior that once was ever-present, so I feel much more respect for him than I did when he was acting out more.

Perhaps most freeing of all, even if the relationship were to go completely south and we were to split, I know I'd still be OK. So maybe that correlates to "not caring as much anymore" but I still do love him.

[Red5]

hmmm,

Red5 sits at his desk here at work, and thinks to himself (dangerous pastime)... .and makes these acute assumptions ?

... ."emotional sobriety" = "radical acceptance" ?

Maybe !

Red5 continues to put mental Legos together,

... ."consequences of pre-chosen reality",

... ."operating in the here and the now",

... ."content with my predicament, yet continually flustered by unrelenting active circumstances",

... ."not caring as much anymore" = "apathetic permanence",

... ."no more fear of the unknown future = fate acceptance"

Like the "Grandpa "Pop" Gustafson" character in Grumpy Old Men, .I got'em all !

I like this too... .helps me a lot sometimes... .Philippians 4:11-13 New International Version (NIV)

[11] I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. [12] I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. [13] I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

And this... ."It could be worse, it could be better, but it is what it is; yesterday is gone, today is here, and tomorrow is not promised"

Red5

[I_Am_The_Fire]

This is a very interesting topic.

Is it possible or "probable" that instead of "not caring" about my wife and our relationship that "i'm more sober"?

To me, this reminds me of being able to disengage and to not emotionally react in the heat of the moment when you feel you're being baited. I learned to do this with my now ex (uBPD\NPD). When he would fly into a rage or when it felt like he was trying to manipulate me or bait me, I would disengage and not emotionally react to what he was doing. It wasn't easy by any means and it took a lot of practice. Then he would accuse me of not caring. He said I was incapable of feeling anything, and so on. That was not true by any means.

When we're self aware and have good boundaries, I think it could be seen as being "emotionally sober". I wonder if this goes hand in hand with being codependent. Being codependent seems to be very similar to being an alcoholic much like what Notwendy wrote.  The book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie really put it into perspective for me.

[formflier]

I've had the feeling of "not caring as much anymore" but that's not a prelude to dissolution of my marriage. It's that I just don't care to engage in conflict and I'm not so easily triggered.
 

This is very close to what I feel... .in fact, I'm not sure I would change a word.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

I have to say that to me stopping caring felt like being emotionally dead. While it still hurts, it proves you're still alive. When it's still going on but it stops hurting is when I think you have to worry about your situation.

I wondered if stopping reacting emotionally was a natural process given the duration of the relationship and my own aging process, I really thought maybe I'd grown out of needing love. That's why I was so surprised when I developed feelings for an OM [which I didn't do anything about]. I know that was all new and chemically enhanced and it wouldn't be fair to compare it side by side to the more mature sort of feelings one would have for a relationship partner after a long duration relationship. But what that did was make me realise I wasn't emotionally dead. It was exciting and painful and I realised I still did actually have quite a big emotional range and that it was more interesting to be experiencing emotions than just putting them in a box all the time.

You could say that was like being drunk again compared to being sober, and that's a fair comparison. But it's also like being alive again compared to being dead. Getting sober I think of as something you choose and action for yourself. Getting dead I think of as something somebody or something else does to you. The latter analogy works better for me. I didn't choose to get into that emotionally flat state, and I didn't choose to get out of it.

I'm sure it's equally valid to choose either analogy depending on your attitude to your relationship and maybe your own feelings of empowerment. I do think it's worth discussing with yourself whether your current state feels and works more like sobriety or more like death. Maybe check out what is your emotional range regarding other things you have feelings about (kids, friends, activities, nature, and so on). If that's still healthy, that's a good sign.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[Notwendy]

The analogy to being sober is from co-dependent recovery. It took me a long time to get the concept. I was not a dependent person. I'd been working since my teens, and an independent adult before marrying my H. I didn't see myself as a clingy or emotionally weak person. It took some work to see the difference between co-dependent and dependent.

It was an eye opener to see the addiction/alcoholic analogy as well, as I don't have alcohol or addition problems. Then, I began to look at the dynamics between me and my H, and how easily I would get "hooked" into caretaking, explaining, and JADEing. Sometimes the caretaking almost felt like a trance state- so automatic that I'd find myself doing it without thinking. My H would get upset over something and I'd be fixing the problem before I even knew it. Or he'd say something to me and we'd be off to the races in some circular discussion. Then, I'd feel like this was something familiar. Not pleasant, but familiar.

This was my "drink" - "addicted"  to helping, fixing, soothing, emotional caretaking. And it was automatic. Looking more closely, I could see these actions as driven by fears- fear of his anger. I was not in danger if he got angry, but I had learned to fear anger - from my BPD mother- and that it was my job to help soothe other people's feelings. It isn't. I thought I was being a loving, generous person until the idea that I was actually managing my own fears by doing this was considered.

Becoming emotionally "sober" meant recognizing what was a "drink" to me and not picking it up. It didn't mean not feeling. It feels uncomfortable to not do what is comfortable- then face my own fears, other people's discomfort when I didn't emotionally caretake, being able to withstand their reactions. But I felt it was the best way to change the dysfunctional patterns I was contributing to.

It is interesting to see that for an alcoholic, the first goal is to stop drinking, but that isn't the whole solution. They drank to escape uncomfortable feelings. Once they stop, they have to manage the feelings. If we stop caretaking, then we have to manage our own discomfort when the people we are with are having difficult feelings ( that we are not helping with )

I can relate to that "don't care" feeling. When we are used to emotional intensity that comes from drama, it feels like we are not feeling, but I also consider that I am choosing calm over drama- and I like that.

[LongGame]

FF, I am glad you wrote this. It describes where I am currently almost perfectly.

Emotionally sober is an interesting term and I think it is apt. It brings to mind a certain sort of clarity, and an awareness of the trap one could fall into if one was to engage in the way it did prior.

It also reflects a healthy attitude about our responsibility in this. An alcoholic may be tempted to blame their condition on the alcohol itself. But the alcohol is not the problem; their position in relation to the alcohol is.
Alcohol is neither good nor bad; it simply is. A certain indifference to it- respecting its ability to either bring pleasure or pain, realizing the causes and limitations of both- allows one to take it for what it is and show it proper respect.

I think for those of us in a relationship with a pwBPD, having a certain indifference shows them a similar respect. This clarity afforded by this "indifference" allows us to respect who they are while maintaining who we are in the process. It is interior freedom for us, and love for them.

[Notwendy]

It's also respect for them. When we feel we have to "manage" another person's feelings, we actually diminish them. It we believe they are responsible for their own feelings, then we allow them to take that responsibility.

It doesn't mean we don't do kind or helping things. It is the motivation behind what we do. For a long time, I would cook dinner out of fear of my H getting angry if I didn't. We have a pretty traditional relationship, so I have done most of the cooking. But sometimes I would be out with the kids, or busy and not be there with dinner. There was a period in our marriage where not having dinner would set the tone for an uncomfortable evening. I started cooking more, not because I wanted to, but because I feared his mood if I didn't.

Yes, I could blame him for his behavior, but I can't control that. I had to address my fears. When we went to an MC, one of the first things she said was "stop making dinner for him for now". I was actually afraid to do that. It wasn't the cooking that was the issue- it was the fear. She wanted me to face my own fears, and my H to deal with his own reaction to not having dinner fixed.

I still cook most of the time now, but now, If I have something else I need to do - H can fend for himself. The difference is that I don't cook out of fear, or to soothe him but because I like to make healthy meals for me and the family. The action is the same- making dinner for my H, but the motivation is different. Cooking out of fear is walking on eggshells. Cooking for health and nutrition is not. By cooking for him out of fear, I was treating him like a child who could not manage himself. That was being disrespectful in a way and I was feeling more resentment and contempt. A grown man should not have a temper tantrum if his dinner isn't prepared every night, and I was allowing that.

[formflier]

  it feels like we are not feeling, but I also consider that I am choosing calm over drama- and I like that.

   

So... .to relate this to something "right now".  How would you consider my choice not to text back when my wife was clearly dysregulated via text.

I certainly did "feel" like I wanted to say something, even though I realized it wouldn't "fix" anything... but perhaps it could "soothe" or somehow "show leadership".  Yet... .when I couldn't figure anything to say... I went on about my business and apparently she has as well.

Thoughts?

Perhaps a more specific drama question.  How do I figure out if I'm trying to "rescue" (and be on on corner of the triangle) versus trying to "center" and be in the middle?

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I think it is a learning curve. We don't always get it right. Being rescuers can be a long term behavior and changing this is like trying different ones until we get it- even then, we don't always get it- but I think we become more aware of ourselves.

For me, paying close attention to my own feelings is a good sign. When I am "rescuing" I start to feel resentment. When I feel resentment, I know I am crossing that line.

Sometimes it isn't the action, but the motivation behind the action that defines rescuing. If you see my post about cooking dinner, it isn't about the cooking, but the motivation. If I cook dinner with a sense of willingness ( even if it is a chore to do that day) then that is different from cooking and feeling resentful.

We also sometimes risk going to the extreme of not being emotionally present at all. Center is not being reactive one way or the other. So someone is mad at us, well they are angry. We don't have to react by not speaking to them after that( one extreme) or trying to fix it ( the other). They may need some space at the moment, but after that, we remain grounded.

I also ask, is this something the person can handle on their own? This also means allowing trial and error on their part. You've already got this with your own kids. You let them handle their own homework. If they turn it in late, you let them face the teacher. This doesn't mean you don't help them or do nice things for them, but as a parent, you know which tasks to let them handle, even if they are frustrated with them. You know that your teen-ager might have a moody hissy fit, but you remain calm and loving and let them work it out.

[Notwendy]

I also think we can consider different forms of "leadership".

Some leaders micromanage and some let their team members figure things out on their own.

Sometimes being a leader could mean stepping out of the way.  Sometimes it means delegating.

When people feel too controlled they can act out in passive aggressive ways.

[Cat Familiar]

Good discussion here. I was definitely addicted to the drama. And I didn't feel "alive" without it. It was a lifelong pattern, starting with my mother. Either I was on her good side or I was on her bad side and one felt soo good and the other felt soo bad. So I was always jumping over hoops trying to get that approval.

As an adult, this translated into tolerance for dysfunctional behavior from partners. I was willing to put up with bad behavior, just to get the extreme positive accolades.

Because of being so familiar with the extremes, I discarded healthy boyfriends because I just didn't "feel enough" for them. Ah, if only I could do it over with what I know now... .

[Enabler]

I was definitely addicted to the drama. And I didn't feel "alive" without it.

Drama and basically arguments = winning / losing. I like winning... .however hollow the victory in the grand scheme of things.

I've just returned from 5 days with 7 mates on a Spanish island. I have little to show for it other than a slightly firmer liver and my dignity intact. My 7 best friends love an argument... .we call it "bants", others would call it derision, bullying, arguing, ridicule. It's what we do and even the smallest slip or error is pounced on for whole character assassination. The love is shared and we're all strong enough to dust off and move on... .we love it. Other peoples misfortune is for your amusement only, laugh long, laugh hard.

I would say that I treated my marriage in a lite version of this. I was addicted to riding the rollercoaster in a unproductive cycle of destruction... .following her moods, correcting her, defending me... .WINNING.

When 2 people are drunk they look at each other stumbling around and think everything is totally fine and actually pretty amusing. When one person is drunk and the other isn't... .it's just not that funny anymore, it's actually a bit embarrassing, it can even induce a lot of anger. Being the one that doesn't participate in the chaos just becomes a bit embarrassing and makes one angry that the other just can't stop being drunk.   

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hello all,

FF, this ia a great topic.  A lot to ponder and learn here.

FF, you like to work on things and fix things, mentor and lead people.  Maybe this is your way of caring.  So not stepping in to fix, mentor or lead your wife may feel like not caring.  But, actually, it may be trusting her to fix her own feelings, to lead her self.

It seems like an emotionally mature way of being.  You have studied this for so long, maybe this is all you have learned in action and it feels strange.

I love the concept of emotional sobriety.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

[Red5]

 

So... .to relate this to something "right now".  How would you consider my choice not to text back when my wife was clearly dysregulated via text.

I certainly did "feel" like I wanted to say something, even though I realized it wouldn't "fix" anything... but perhaps it could "soothe" or somehow "show leadership".  Yet... .when I couldn't figure anything to say... I went on about my business and apparently she has as well.

Thoughts?

Perhaps a more specific drama question.  How do I figure out if I'm trying to "rescue" (and be on on corner of the triangle) versus trying to "center" and be in the middle?

FF

Afternoon FF,

Pensacola (smile) we were stationed there for three years, & loved it !

… but I am a Florida boy by birth anyways (redneck).

I had a few thoughts, here goes,

I read the txt(s) from Mrs.FF, and as well your responses;… I can relate to both your positions, as I too am retired from the “Fleet Air Arm” as it were.

FF/W says that she spent twenty years following FF around in the Navy, so she should now enjoy full benefits, unfettered access; of that said service upon FF’s retirement, as she was a “camp follower” as we called it in the USMC, she could not keep a career due to executing permanent change of station orders every three years or so, pulling up the tent stakes, breaking camp, and moving, and then starting over in a new command/duty assignment… every three years or so… and probably about half of the twenty years; it was sea duty for FF I’ll bet, so FF was “underway”, and FF/W, who was back at home port, took on all responsibilities of home, kids, bills, et’ all, each time FF went on cruise.

Been there done that in my first marriage.

But I also understand a few other things, certain behaviors do have consequences; ie’… a service member acts in a certain way, that service member my lose his security clearance resultant, be busted down, lose rank, and privileges… and on the other hand, behaviors (good) wins favor from the Commanding Officer, ie’ “good conduct medals”, citations, promotions, and in some certain circumstances, “choice of new duty stations”… and most of all, good behavior brings trust from subordinates, peers, and superiors alike, and then is added additional responsibilities due to ever increasing trustworthiness.

So it’s the same way in a marriage (yes?)… FF/W spent the time, now she wants the promised benefits, fair yes?… but what if the said benefits are being misused… as FF tells us, ie; money ($$) issues, so FF implements “control measures” to avoid running the ship (family/marriage) aground.

This is the “certain behaviors do have consequences” line from above, FF/W has “lost her security clearance” and certain “privileges” due to certain prevalent behaviors.

I also know of, and have seen it happen on may occasions to close friends of mine in the service;… (service)man - and wife (W)… spends twenty (+) years together (married) in the service, and upon retirement, W decides that she has had enough, and divorces serviceman, reasons why abound… and as we sea lawyers all know, all it takes is ten years of “camp following” to earn stbx W 50% of the retirement check, plus child support, and in some cases even cost of living, and alimony payments, for life, or until stbx/ex-W subsequently re-marries.

I wrote all that I guess to say this, as you always say FF; sometimes you got to be succinct;

*suc·cinct / suc·cinct·ly. – ADJECTIVE / ADVERB: something written or spoken briefly and clearly expressed; written or spoken in a brief and clearly expressed manner.

"use short, succinct sentences"… synonyms: concise · short · brief · compact · condensed · crisp · laconic · terse · tight · to the point · economic · pithy · thumbnail · summary · short and sweet · in a few well-chosen words  

… I think you should tell her (FF/W)… "triangles be damned!"

…“the reason that I am doing what I am doing is that you (dear) cannot handle money ($$), so to ensure you do not spend the whole lot (bank account), you will only get what I decide you need, not what you want.”

… “period”,

… “if you’d like, we can talk further in regards to subject at a later date, now have a safe trip, and I will see you upon your return”.

She will most likely declare a mutiny, and call for your immediate keel-hauling, but better to lay it out in bullet format, and succinctly;… rather than be drawn into a lengthy, endless, circular argument about misconstrued historical facts, and perceived rights of the “wronged”.

Sometimes the Captain has to make tough choices to keep the ship (family/marriage) off the shoals, again… been there done that.

Too harsh ?... .thoughts,

Red5

[Enabler]

What about instead of FF decides, what ‘WE’ decide. Often I feel resentment comes through from the breadwinner seeming like they control the purse strings rather than working with their partner.

Last year I was made aware that the idea of asking for money was demeaning to W, so I unprompted said to her “asking for money is demoralising and demeaning, can you come up with a budget and a number such that you are in control of that budget” . W cried and said that she was no good with finances and budgets, the topic was never resolved but never resurfaced as an issue. She is becoming acutely aware that she has to ‘get good’ at budgets and finances since she has petitioned for a divorce.

If she doesn’t collaborate and compromise and therefore feel ownership of the solution things stay as they are, and she will be forced to own that as well. Offer her controlled parole

[formflier]

The problem with "we" in our relationship is the inability to accept no... or accept that decision making flows at different speeds.  (that's a succinct way of saying it)

My wife understands that to have access (other than asking) she will have to start keeping her word.  Apparently that doesn't work for her.

FF