Forgiveness, recovery, and none of the above. I can't re-engage, or fix it.

[SamwizeGamgee]

BG- If we role-played your questions, my first responses to your follow up questions are "I don't know." But, I think that's just a cover answer to buy me time to think, or hide from my answers.  I do see how it's not fair to bunch up topics of myself, and then talk about the family needing healing.

1- I'm just not happy in marriage. - Okay.  The natural follow up questions for me, if I were the one hearing this, would be "Why?" and "What needs to happen for you to be happy in this marriage?"  There's also the possibility of "How long have you felt this way?"  Are these questions you're willing/ready to address?

Here I'm afraid of being honest.  And then I'm worried that I'm the crazy one, or bi-polar, or depressed.  I'm unhappy with marriage because now that I see it as 21 years of low-grade abuse / unhappy it's too far gone to see anything else.  Maybe I sound like a kid reasoning that I'm unhappy because I am unhappy?
What needs to happen to be happy in marriage? 
Again, I'm stuck with a blank.  I am almost afraid to answer because then my wife will address the problem.  Better food? sex? money? some form of trust? attraction? do more to keep yourself healthy? share common interests? show a little kindness? like dogs? dial down the pressure on the kids?
Closer to the mark might be an end to projection, blame, catastrophic thinking, maybe undoing the brainwashing and alienation of D17. 

2- And our family needs healing. - Why the shift from yourself to the family?  (to not sound like a selfish ass, maybe) The family isn't really happy either.  I hate walking in the door most days, there's usually palpable tension.

"What's wrong with our family?  Who's hurting?  What do we need healing from?"  Funny thing is, I think she doesn't see something wrong with the family.  Under the hood, she knows it's my fault anyway.  (*sarcasm).
D17 is hurting, though I think her mom likes being the chosen parent - the one the D17 has a 'good' relationship with still. 
We need healing from this schism that is in the house.  I moved out from the bedroom in 2015, keep an odd distance usually.  I don't know what it looks like to the kids, or what it's doing to them.  Maybe it's just me hurting and needing healing.

Do you think that shifting focus from yourself and your feelings helps put a better framework in place for what you are going to say next?
Maybe.  I will think about that.

3- And healing would probably be best in two separate households.  "For how long?  What healing?  Are we doing family therapy?  Who gets to stay and who leaves?... ."  These are just the beginning of the questions about what a separation/divorce would look like.  Do you plan to have answers for them when you have this conversation, or work through them with your wife? 
Again, I almost don't want an answer because I don't want a solution on some deep level.  But, I agree it must be addressed.  In my mind, two separate households is a permanent solution to a permanent problem.  It's just a frosting-on-top way to introduce divorce.  Healing me, and the kids, comes from time away from the emotional abuse, blackmail, and undermining toxic aura of uBPDw.  (apologize to those who don't believe in auras. I just do believe that we create and radiate certain energies - and a person can put out that force which occupies them.  Stay with mom long enough and the energized negativity, conflict, seeps in.  But, I'm way off topic on that... .although it is sort of like the psychological principle of mirroring - a tested and proven behavior).


Writing this helps strip away some of my innate nature to be a nice guy, the blarney.  It also reminds me of how exhausting living with a disordered person is.  I'm constantly on stage, being the politician (maybe why lying comes so naturally now).  Appease and soften.  Placate, and endure. 
Backstage, I have Motley Crue (who are not my moral compass) playing "Don't Go Away Mad (Just Go Away)"


Which brings me around to LJ's comment, - honesty is not a good policy for peace, is it?  ;)

[SamwizeGamgee]

This reminds me that a while ago (year or so) I gave myself permission to imagine that I could want a divorce just because I wanted a divorce.  Like, "I just want out."
It was a really liberating moment. 
A moment I never dwelt in, however, as I am always trying to figure out what's best for kids, me, financial, school, career, god, future, retirement... .And thus stay married. I've worked so hard to justify even not liking marriage.  BPD was more than just an excuse, but, it does present a nice excuse.

[juju2]

My heart goes out to you.

Living w pwBPD is a roller coaster.

When i started to get healthy, thru a program, got a mentor, and we looked at my part in all the things that were upsetting me, it came down to fear, more fear, and some more fear.  All wrapped up in a pretty box called co dependency with a ribbon called no boundaries.

He did what he does, i got hooked, didnt honor myself, didnt do self care, didnt have a community such as this, on it goes... .the many things i failed my self on.  Not to be a downer.  Its healing to see my part.  I am not a victim.
Thru this self examination, i can see better choices.   i have power over.

blessings to you,  j

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, I'm not advocating dishonesty, but am suggesting that it's understandable why most of us Nons end up skirting the truth on occasion, or omitting certain facts.

No, I think life should be a journey towards authenticity, which is tough to accomplish in a BPD r/s due to all the drama and turmoil.  I pretended a lot in my marriage to my BPDxW.  No more.  Now I strive to be myself, and say "damn the torpedoes"!

Another consideration, when one has kids, is: what kind of an example of behavior are you providing to your kids?  Tough question, I know.

LJ

[SamwizeGamgee]

LJ - that "Damn the torpedoes" mantra is resonating more and more with me.  I've been human ballast trying to keep ship at an even keel for too long.  I've given away too much of me.
My voice sounds like a man who has had enough.
And dang it! It is tough to determine what's best for the kids.  Example indeed.  Perseverance, boundaries, rising above being a victim, abandoning family, betraying oaths, love, self-respect.   Tough calls.

[BeagleGirl]

Samwize,

It's good that you're able to go through the questions and see where you don't really want answers.  I would suggest that you aren't ready to have the conversation until you are at least willing to face the follow up questions, even if you don't have the answers.

Taking a little step back, do you think that one of these options would fit what you want to communicate a bit better?

-I have been unhappy in our marriage.  I have tried to address the causes of my unhappiness and I don't see it changing.  At this point I don't believe that there is anything that can be done to change how I feel and I've decided that I can no longer be in a marriage that I see no hope for happiness in.  I would like to start the process of physically separating and moving towards divorce.

-I have been unhappy in our marriage.  I have tried to address the causes of my unhappiness, but don't feel that I can do so alone.  There are patterns in our marriage that I would like to break, but since we both contribute to them we both have to be willing to address them.  If you're unwilling to work towards them or we don't seem to be able to work through them together within x months, I am prepared to leave the marriage and pursue divorce.

-I have been unhappy in our marriage.  I don't believe that I can adequately address my feelings while living under the same roof.  I would like to try a therapeutic separation with a period of minimal contact while I try to work through my feelings of unhappiness.  I am hoping that after that period of time I will have a better idea of a path forward.

What do you think?  Do any of those resonate with you enough to tweak?

BG

[SamwizeGamgee]

BG -while reading your first version I felt an almost physical catharsis.  That resonates, and perhaps that reveals the truth.  Sad as it is.

[Cat Familiar]

Samwize,
The truth certainly can be painful, but on the other hand, it gives us a blessing of freeing up energy that we've used to hide things we didn't want to or dare disclose. Not easy, whatever you choose.   

Cat

[BeagleGirl]

Samwize,

As I read what I wrote, I realize that I moved through those three statements in reverse order over the past 2 years.  It wasn't a smooth transition.  I spent periods of time "waffling" between two or all three from day to day (or moment to moment).

I tend to be a woman of action, but the stakes were so high on this that I refused to take action at each stage until I was no longer "waffling".  It was excruciating, but I believe I have far fewer regrets because of it.  It sounds like you are doing the same and in the midst of the "excruciating" part.     Hang in there.  It may not feel like it, but this time of waffling is not wasted.

And now I really want waffles. 

BG

[BetterLanes]

Watching this thread and praying for you Samwize!

My new fave author Lundy Bancroft did like BeagleGirl did above in his book "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" (targeted at women in abusive relationships, but you could do worse than try it, a lot of the ideas could apply to anyone). As one of the exercises he asks the reader to read the following statements one at at time and think about how each one of them makes you feel - relieved or panicked?:

"We think it's better for you to stay with your partner."
"We think it's better for you to leave your partner."

This exercise is in Chapter 17. There is a list in there called "It is time to go when... ." I think you would like to read that list. There are a lot of other exercises in the book to do with thinking about what you want from / whether you want the relationship and getting in touch with your authentic and honest feelings. You might find them a bit hippy-ish or feminine in tone but the underlying principles and the surrounding information are very useful. Disclaimer: I didn't "do" any of the exercises except for the ones like above that caught my eye and took a couple of moments, and just tore through the book because I had put myself on a date-dependent deadline as usual. (My T to me: "You're very driven, aren't you?" my other T to me: "I wonder if it would be helpful for you to get back in touch with your femininity."  ) But I do mean to do them at some point!

Hope that helps,

BetterLanes x

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all.  This is a great place.  Talking it out and hearing back from those who "get it" is great.
This morning an idea coalesced for me.  I am cut from a cloth that just can't do things because "I'm not happy."
But, when I was reviewing why I felt this way, I started saying that I am able to sense that there has just been too much trauma, for too long.  Granted the trauma has been mostly undetectable psychological abuse, and then adding having my D17 alienated.  Over the years, and years of erosion, I can say that I recognize a problem.  A permanent problem.  One that needs a permanent solution.  Which I think I first connected in a previous reply to LuckyJim.

I actually bought Bancroft "Should I stay or Should I go."  It was asking the question I wanted the answer to.  However, after about half way through, I just couldn't keep translating male to female, so I returned the book.  Although I think I can definitely find my feminine hippy-ish side ;) 

I think men and women abuse differently, and they suffer differently.  Bancroft's writing are very targeted to women victims.  It's great work, but I just felt worse and worse reading it.  What I wouldn't do for a bruise, or a fist through the wall, or a threat, coerced sex.  That would be proof that a man can be a victim of abuse - plus made a nice police report.  Trying to describe verbal and emotional abuse in domestic "picture perfect" families is a lot harder, especially for a man.  But, that's a topic for another day.

I am trying to hurdle the recovery gender gap again.  I started reading Shannon Thomas "Healing From Hidden Abuse" which is written to women victims.  (Author recommended by Beagle Girl - thanks!)  So far, it's connecting well with me.  It's her book that is prompting me to reframe "I'm not happy" as "I've suffered trauma"  - and I love the way she embraces the idea that no one else may know or recognize hidden psychological abuse - it is so, so, so validating!

As you said BetterLanes, I'll admit I align with wanting the advice "we think it's better you leave."  A long time ago, I remember describing the feeling of being married (in my marriage currently) as drowning, or being buried alive.  That description still applies, to where my life depends on getting out.

And BG and BL - I agree in being driven.  I think by nature I can make tough calls and decisions, but, I have worn figurative circles in the ground pacing around thinking about this.  I've been up and down the scale of staying, improving, surviving, leaving... .And yes, waffles sound like a good idea ;)

[Lucky Jim]

And dang it! It is tough to determine what's best for the kids.  Example indeed.  Perseverance, boundaries, rising above being a victim, abandoning family, betraying oaths, love, self-respect.   Tough calls.

Hey Sam, Right, there's no easy answer when it comes to what's best for one's kids.  I suspect that, from their perspective, my children would have preferred to keep our family intact, which is one reason why I stayed far longer than was healthy for me.  On the other hand, I suspect that it was detrimental for them to grow up in a high-conflict household with recurring episodes of rage, drama and turmoil.

I can't tell you what to do.  Now I strive for authenticity, which helps me to find my path these days.

LuckyJim

[BeagleGirl]

I am cut from a cloth that just can't do things because "I'm not happy."

What I wouldn't do for a bruise, or a fist through the wall, or a threat, coerced sex. 

Samwize,
I'm sitting here kind of marveling at the fact that I ever managed to leave my marriage, because I used to think in terms of what my happiness (or chance of happiness) would cost others.  I'm very unhappy, but my children/dBPDxh/complete strangers are relatively happy.  My happiness will cost too much if they lose their happiness. (I credit my FOO for that idea.) 

It took lots of different reasoning to leave/stay away from/end my marriage, but I think the idea that I settled on was "It is not right for a person to treat another person this way.  I will not be party to normalizing this treatment."  In my Christian vernacular "God gave a picture of marriage.  I will not be party to defiling that picture by calling what we have a marriage."  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't looking for perfection.  I was looking for a desire to move in the direction of perfection.  If dBPDxh had shown true repentance for his behaviors (not just remorse for the consequences) and wanted to learn to behave differently, I might have still been "unhappy" from time to time as he stumbled and made mistakes, but I wouldn't have lost hope.  I could live without happiness (at least for a LONG time) but not without hope.

And I prayed at times for a bruise.  I didn't want dBPDxh to hit me, but I would have given almost anything to have a physical representation of the pain he was inflicting.  Victims of mental/emotional/psychological abuse are very frequently wounded twice - by the abuser and by those who don't believe the abuse.

BG

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Well, I can check the box for "fist through wall" and "door broken down" yet probably would have continued to live a "life of quiet desperation" had I not bottomed out to the point that two kind friends and a family member were so worried that they conducted an intervention on me, which gave me the strength to leave.  Otherwise, who knows?

Well said, BeagleGirl!  I lost hope.

LuckyJim

[mama-wolf]

Hi Samwize,

Sounds like you're working through a lot lately.  I thought I'd chime in on a few things that definitely resonated from the thread... .

A long time ago, I remember describing the feeling of being married (in my marriage currently) as drowning, or being buried alive.  That description still applies, to where my life depends on getting out.

Your mention of drowning reminded me of a post I made back in April, and I had to go back and read it.  It came to mind because I included a link to a scene in the movie Abyss, which I described to my T in my next session.  As I described the scene to my T and how I identified with the rat struggling as she adjusted to breathing oxygenated fluid, my T caught me completely off guard by cutting right to the chase.  She said "Sounds like you feel like you're drowning."  I hadn't thought of it like that... .just as a struggle that was really unpleasant and something I was trudging through--but she hit the nail on the head.  I was drowning.

I suspect that, from their perspective, my children would have preferred to keep our family intact, which is one reason why I stayed far longer than was healthy for me.  On the other hand, I suspect that it was detrimental for them to grow up in a high-conflict household with recurring episodes of rage, drama and turmoil.

As much as I hate putting my kids through a divorce, and as much guilt as I carry for it, my T has consistently reminded me of this fact.  The pain and unhappiness they are going through now is to save them (and me) from the longer-lasting, far more detrimental impact of continuing year after year in the situation we were in.

I'm sitting here kind of marveling at the fact that I ever managed to leave my marriage, because I used to think in terms of what my happiness (or chance of happiness) would cost others.  I'm very unhappy, but my children/dBPDxh/complete strangers are relatively happy.  My happiness will cost too much if they lose their happiness. (I credit my FOO for that idea.) 

I could live without happiness (at least for a LONG time) but not without hope.

Another very strong parallel for me, and the source of a lot of guilt.  It was never a conscious thought for me... .it was just something I did, putting others' needs (including happiness) ahead of mine.  I have discussed with my T multiple times that I feel selfish due to the impact my seeking happiness--or as you said, the chance of happiness--is having on my kids and even my stbx.

In the end, what broke me was that loss of hope.  It was never going to get any better.  So, I'm not happy now, and I'm not convinced I'll be happy in the future, but the only thing I have to hold onto at this point is the chance that I could be.  That didn't exist anymore in my marriage.

mw