Feeling broken.. Hurt.. Furious.. Ugly fight.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

A new issue has reared it's ugly head.  Today, our youngest started playing in the sink.  He tried to fill his fire truck up with water and carrying it around.  I told him no, tried to take the toy away.  Ended up with him hollering and hitting the toy loudly against the sink.  Woke up my bph which caused him to yell for him to shut up and then proceed to berate me about how I can't control our child and how I am doing it on purpose.

Fast forward to him flying off the handle about how everyone is a bunch of @ssholes, etc.  He was hollering and threatening.  I was being quiet by being side blinded so he goaded me.  Telling me to go ahead and get angry, get my attitude, tell him that I want to leave again, yell and hit him, cause he was ready, ready to brawl, that he was ready to blow up... Egging me, saying come on.  All the while yelling.

Anyways, we had a long chat.  He was really spiteful, seething with anger, telling me that he could make my life bad since I want to play the victim.  How he was tired of being the boogie man I make him out to be and throwing it back in my face when I asked him if it ever occurred to him that he broke me.  I said it when I was pretty mad.  I mentioned we both agreed that we have said some pretty mean things when we got mad.  Told me it didn't matter, I said it (double standard).

It's moments like this I want to tell him if I am so horrible to go call his gf he would rather go out drinking with then be with me.  Oh and I have become more ballsy apparently.  Like... Excuse me for believing that you are going to put your hands on my neck anymore.

By all rights, if I left him, I would be justified for all the physical, emotional, and verbal abuse he has put me through.  Today, I am extremely pissed off to where I want to tell him to go be alone like he seems to want to be.

Help... I need some self soothing tips.

[Frankee]

A new issue has reared it's ugly head.  Today, our youngest started playing in the sink.  He tried to fill his fire truck up with water and carrying it around.  I told him no, tried to take the toy away.  Ended up with him hollering and hitting the toy loudly against the sink.  Woke up my bph which caused him to yell for him to shut up and then proceed to berate me about how I can't control our child and how I am doing it on purpose.

Fast forward to him flying off the handle about how everyone is a bunch of @ssholes, etc.  He was hollering and threatening.  I was being quiet by being side blinded so he goaded me.  Telling me to go ahead and get angry, get my attitude, tell him that I want to leave again, yell and hit him, cause he was ready, ready to brawl, that he was ready to blow up... Egging me, saying come on.  All the while yelling.

Anyways, we had a long chat.  He was really spiteful, seething with anger, telling me that he could make my life bad since I want to play the victim.  How he was tired of being the boogie man I make him out to be and throwing it back in my face when I asked him if it ever occurred to him that he broke me.  I said it when I was pretty mad.  I mentioned we both agreed that we have said some pretty mean things when we got mad.  Told me it didn't matter, I said it (double standard).

It's moments like this I want to tell him if I am so horrible to go call his gf he would rather go out drinking with then be with me.  Oh and I have become more ballsy apparently.  Like... Excuse me for believing that you are going to put your hands on my neck anymore.

By all rights, if I left him, I would be justified for all the physical, emotional, and verbal abuse he has put me through.  Today, I am extremely pissed off to where I want to tell him to go be alone like he seems to want to be.

Help... I need some self soothing tips.

[Frankee]

Okay... .so... Wtf.  He called and apologized.  Said I did nothing wrong, he doesn't know why he is like that today, that he has calmed down.

Seriously had him just totally blow his $hit on me, basically tell me how a horrible, disloyal human being I am... And now... Baby, I am sorry... You did nothing wrong, it's me.  

Like a gawd damn tornado that comes back to apologize for destroying my house.

[formflier]

Can you take a walk... .go to the park with your kid?

 

I am mobile... .will check in on you later.  Be kind to yourself.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So your H blamed you for your child waking him up and then he got started trying to trigger you into replying in an angry way. It sounds like you had a lot of self control, but would have liked to rip him a new one.

Now, some hours later, how do you feel? And how do you feel about how you responded to him?

[Frankee]

I feel okay with how I responded.  It was clear that he was in a way with his anger that me trying to reason with him, pacify him, or even try to calm him down was pointless.  Better let him hang himself.  I am still upset with him.  He pulled the crap on Sunday, ruined our outing Monday, and now today, he blows his gasket.  I have done nothing wrong to deserve any of it and I think he's an a$$hole for his behavior last few days.

I'm not going to play victim though or join his little "I keep messing things up" parade he has going for himself.  I'm keeping my mind straight because if I do that, I have nothing to say I'm sorry for.  He's the one acting like a jerk and me not blowing up on him, gave him no ammunition to blame me for anything.

Still a little upset if anyone can tell.

[Cat Familiar]

You did great, Frankee!    You kept your cool and didn't get rattled. You saw when he started to dysregulate and realized that JADEing was useless, and didn't try and calm him down. Good work.

Of course you're upset. He made it very unpleasant to be around him.

[formflier]

Did he apologize to the child?

I'm thinking, since this is a "new" you, that you need to sleep on this and then find a good time to chat with him about it tomorrow. 

You DO need to tell him you appreciate his apology... .I suggest after that you ask to hear his thoughts about what can make next time better.

Still thinking about this some... .

Thoughts?


FF

[Frankee]

He hasn't apologized to the chld.  He's said on more than one occasion he doesn't like the "new" me.  Mostly when I don't take his bs like I use to.  Once I was able to mentally recover from his explosion, we had that chat.

I get so dang mad that he throws me into a lose-lose situation like that.  He gets mad because I am being quiet, but when I talk in a calm manner, he blows up saying he doesn't care, he thinks I am lying, etc.  I even had to bite my tongue at one point from saying something really nasty.  He yelled that I wasn't doing what "I know" would help calm him down, which is to hug him and tell him everything would be okay.  Didn't really feel like hugging the person that was calling me an $$hole, disloyal piece of crap, who caused him to start yelling.

[formflier]

Just to make sure:  He is trying "to get the old you back".  Sort of an "extinction burst".

How old is the child?

Have you said you accept his apology?  Has there been a discussion about the future, how to avoid these things?

My big picture:  His outbursts should result in more of what he doesn't want.  Times when he is reasonable should give him more of "good Frankee".

This will take time... .but I would take this as a "badge of honor" for you.

FF

[Enabler]

Morning Frankee,

I have been known to have a rant when I'm woken up by the kids so I'll not stand on any soapboxes.

3 observations:

Well done on cementing the new you in yet another incident, soon it will be just you rather than 'new' you.  sounds like you have reasoned with yourself as to why you shouldn't bring yourself down to his emotional level and appropriately detached your emotional volatility from his. Top work.

One response to him goading you would be "Why would I do that?". He wants you to join the angry party, he likes a fight, you're not giving him that 2 way fight... .it's just him shadow boxing. Don't wrestle with pigs, you get muddy and they love it.

Apologies are a difficult one... .I read a piece recently which was very thought provoking (annoyingly can't find it on web search). It basically says that you shouldn't accept an apology but acknowledge the apology. An apology is in essence for express benefit of the person who has something they wish to say sorry for. Asking you to accept their apology exonerates them from guilt and puts the onus on you to forgive them. This is a way of shifting responsibility from them to you. Actually, responsibility should sit with the offender to SHOW that they are sorry, make amends and be ACCOUNTABLE (accountability being a combination of taking responsibility and making amends be compensating and amending their behavior). If I had a choice between my wife's words of apology or her showing me in her actions that she wanted to make some meaningful changes in her behaviour, I would take the latter every day. My response to his apology would be, "I acknowledge your apology, what are you going to do about it (applicable to me and kid)?", then no further comment.

Enabler

[formflier]

Reconciliation can have some religious connotations, yet I think it is applicable across all types of relationships.

Apology is an expression of sorrow

Asking for forgiveness is a "step up" from apology
 
Granting forgiveness essentially means that the "wronged person" will no long seek "redress"or "punishment" towards the offender.

Reconciliation:  Generally takes both parties (wronged and the wrong doer) to actively take steps to "bring the relationship back together again"... .this is a step up from granting forgiveness.

What I have said to my wife on some issues is that she is forgiven, yet the relationship remains reconciled and that I'm open to working on reconciliation.

Here is the thing, that is perhaps particular to the "conflicted" board.  :)o we want to reconcile?  

It is entirely possible to grant forgiveness, yet express that you don't want to reconcile and move on with your life.

Frankee... .I would sort through these concepts in your head and "encourage" your husband (leave door open for him to keep "upgrading"... .but I wouldn't "demand" it... .very different than letting him know what you expect.

The hard part... .is that they will "feel shamed" and not want to.  Let them connect the dots on that.  The shame is NOT the reconciliation... it's the actions prior to... . If they don't want shame... .don't do the actions.  

Don't save them from that uncomfortable truth.

FF

[Frankee]

The shame is NOT the reconciliation... it's the actions prior to... . If they don't want shame... .don't do the actions.  

Don't save them from that uncomfortable truth.

I have been trying to practice this.  Since I came back in February, I will admit that I have acted unfavorable and at times, pretty nasty.  Think I went through a period where I had a lot of rage and resentment built up that was showing itself in a few of our fights.  I did smack him a couple times.  Even beat on his arm until it was sore when we had a pretty nasty fight in the car.  Have even gone off the rails and gone like crazy psycho on him.  Again, not moments I am proud of or want to do again.

I'm working on being more grounded again.  I do want to reconcile and move forward.  There are still times where I doubt if I still want this.  I try to be honest about my feelings or things I have doubts on, but they still seem to be popping up. 

A few weeks back I talked to him and said I wasn't sure if I wanted anymore kids.  At the time I was thinking seriously of calling it quits for good.  If he wanted more kids and I didn't, I don't want him resenting me for him not having anymore.  His feelings is that people have kids when they love each other and shows they want to stay together.   All we do is fight about the kids we have now and I am so sick of it.  Now, when gets mad (like yesterday), he throws it in my face that I am making him choose between me and future kids, how he's pissed off that he can't have anymore, how I am holding him hostage because we already have the one together and it isn't fair I get my two when he maybe wanted one more. 

That may end up being a deal breaker in itself.

[formflier]

Hey... .Frankee.  That was very considerate of you to put his potential feelings first about kids.  However, given the "temperature" of the r/s... I'm not sure it was wise for either of you.

Figuring out how to not wail on each other and whether or not to have more kids really aren't thoughts that go together (IMO)

Step 1.  Reduce temp... .stop destructive behaviors... .let the r/s develop for a while.  Then have "hear to heart". 

I'm guessing if you can get 6 months of "calm" (again... likely relative)... .then perhaps bring it up again.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

What would your relationship need to be like if you did want to have another child with him? If you were to discuss your needs for this, how do you think he would receive it? And how do you think he would be able to comply with such an agreement?

It sounds like you've been able to work past your resentment and anger and get to a very strong place where you're now able to hold your center even when he's being exceptionally difficult. 

What about the relationship and his commitment do you doubt?

As your arguments tend to revolve around the children you already have, you are wise to be thinking deeply about this.

[formflier]

As your arguments tend to revolve around the children you already have, you are wise to be thinking deeply about this.

ditto!

[Frankee]

Some of my doubts are if I even really love him enough to have another child.  I don't feel our relationship would survive another child.  It is something I have put on the back burner, but is still in my mind. 

Nowhere in any of my future plans, does iy include having to take care of another baby by myself.

When our youngest was very little, he got to do whatever he wanted and I was always left holding the screaming baby with a dirty diaper.  That's another reason.  I don't trust him that he would be any different the next time.

I would like to know that he will help more.  Knowing that he won't run off all the time and leave me to deal with the baby.  Not having another child be something else to argue over.  Feeling safe that I can trust him to let me be honest about all my feelings without it being thrown in my face when we fight.

The blow up he had yesterday was just a reminder of how unstable and emotionally unbalanced our relationship is.  I struggle to hold it together some days and on those days, I still think about just leaving him and being done with all of it.

[Cat Familiar]

So you're not sure you love him enough to have another baby with him and you remember how little he helped you with the last baby. He's shown a pattern of running off to do whatever he wanted and leaving you with the responsibility of taking care of the kids. And you don't feel safe about being able to disclose your feelings without him turning it back on you.

It's good that you are looking deep within about this relationship and assessing how it might play out in the future. 

[formflier]

Frankee,

I think you have your answer about children.  You "know" the answer.

OK... so I have 8 kids.  She was pregnant with number 7 when some of the first symptoms of BPD started to appear (after a natural disaster). 

We waited a couple years and during of the "good phases" where I thought "things were fixed" (I hadn't read SWOE or heard of BPD) we got pregnant with number 8.  It was intentional that we were ok with another child and she was pregnant soon after.

Pregnancy made things better and then the cycle down and up after number 8 was born is about the time I discovered SWOE and BPD. 

Not long after that... .I "knew" that having another child was unwise.  My wife has arrived at that conclusion as well and we've taken steps to make sure there are no more.

I obviously like kids... .working through this was/is part of the RA of what it means to be in a r/s with a pwBPD.

   

FF

[formflier]

Cross post with Cat.

In your case, it seems that he was not helpful with parenting.
 
I love having a little baby around and honestly, my wife and I were good with that part.  I would change a diaper get the kid ready and then hand over to Mom for breast feeding.  Usually then bring Mom something while she was feeding.

So... .you've got practicalities to think about, in addition to the stress on your romantic relationship.

FF

[Frankee]

I appreciate all the insight on everything.  There are just reminders here and there that are enough to reassure my feelings.  

Even this morning.  Some events unfolded that I had no control over that caused my H to be woken up.  I had to go to the store.  I don't go every morning.  I told him and he blew up.  Going on about how I am wasting gas, blowing through his money he is trying to save for us, what could I possibly need from the store?  Told him stuff to make dinner and drinks.  He carried on about how I go every morning so who am I meeting?  I must be going off to bang somebody, who am I banging?  I just sighed and said nevermind.

Grocery store is about 5 minutes away.  I don't go every day.  We have a smaller fridge that doesn't hold a lot.  I enjoy the short little drive to get out of the house since I stay at home.  I take the youngest because he is the nosiest in the mornings and helps relieve some stress.   None of this matters to him.  

It is such a double standard with him.  He's the one who went off drinking with some chick, he's the one who gets to leave whenever he wants, he gets to take a break from the kids, he gets to go to the beach by himself.  I wouldn't mind any of this, but he's insecure, he doesn't want to watch the kids more than 5 minutes, if I want to go anywhere, I have to take at least the youngest.  Yet I am the one that puts the double standard on him.  We are going to counseling on Monday.  Should be interesting.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like he gets cranky in the morning. Do you think this is related to drinking or drug usage? Or maybe he doesn't sleep well?

So you're going about your responsibilities of getting dinner preparations and taking the youngest so that your H won't be disturbed.

You give your H the latitude to go off by himself and do things he wants to do, but he doesn't extend that courtesy to you and instead accuses you of wasting money and infidelity.

What sort of issues would you like to discuss in counseling? How about sharing this with us so we can help you phrase things to make them less triggering for your H?

[Frankee]

I would like to bring up the whole money issue for one.  He spent that money Sunday and then wants to complain about me going to the grocery store too much.

He's just a bear in the mornings majority of the time.  He has night terrors sometimes and has trouble sleeping.  

I have been going back and forth about the whole fidelity thing. It's all his insecurities, knowing I can do better.  I caught my ex in the act of cheating once.  I don't throw that in his face because he didn't do it.  Honestly, I think actual cheating would be the end to all end.  I have let so much slide on his thing with women.  Gaslighting like a MF'er.  

What's even more messed up is how he talks about women.  When he gets on a tangent, he talks about how disloyal we all are, how we all jump ship when things get tough, how we all just have kids and break families up.  This is all him again.  His experiences, his mother issues, his insecurities.  I grew up with parents who have a normal and healthy relationship, majority of my friends are still married to their first husbands and have kids by that one man.  

He talks about his trust and bs issues with women, but loves when they give him attention, threatens to cheat, goes to hang out with them, stores their crap so this woman can stay in a shelter after losing her kids... .I can't be the only one who sees the irony of all of this.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you're really seeing the incongruity between how he behaves and what he expects from you.

So how do you think he'd respond if you trash talked men, loved getting attention from them, threatened to cheat or hung out with men he didn't know.
Not good, huh?

He tells you that you're a party pooper who won't let him have fun, yet he's doing lots of things that make you uncomfortable.

How do you feel about being aware of this and how does that bode for the future with him?

[Frankee]

I use to buy all this bs behavior, not so much now.  Ever since I have come back, I have felt different.  I am trying to figure out the routes I want to take.

I gave myself a pat on the back today, after the nonsense he pulled this morning.  I thought about how I wanted to handle the current issue.  I wanted to call him and chew him out about the mystery woman on Sunday and say, what about that.  Accusing me of being unfaithful when you are the one drinking with some chick and then agreeing to pack up our truck with some chick's stuff and asking after the fact and then ruining our outing Monday.  I decided I wasn't going to.  I already moved past it and I wasn't going to sink to his level of insecurity.  I called him back and did the emotional validation.  I had to read on it before figuring out what I wanted to say. 

I had to  realize that validating an emotion does not mean that I agree with the other person, or that you think their emotional response is warranted. Rather to communicate to them that I understand what they are feeling, without trying to talk them out of the feeling or shame them for the feeling.

The only real thing I am holding onto is that is see he has changed.  He's not nearly as bad as he use to be and he actually apologizes for his behavior when he knows he is in the wrong.  There are still things like this that we are trying to work through.

[Cat Familiar]

Good work, Frankee!

It takes a lot of self-discipline to validate when another part of us wants to get down in the mud with them. At those times, when I'm tempted to shoot my mouth off, I remember words of wisdom from another member, Grey Kitty, who says, "No good will come of this."

It's great that he apologizes when he sees he's been in the wrong. And I'm sure it's because you've changed your behavior! Good work! 

[Frankee]

Thank you!   

Grey Kitty, who says, "No good will come of this."

Think I need to engrave this in my skull.  He's been doing a lot of instigating this week.  This has been a rough week honestly.  Last night he snapped at me about how he says the house is a sty.  He's acting all high and mighty because he's working hard and the house makes it seem like I sit on my a$$ all day and acting like fat and lazy people.  Even complained about the whole store thing.  Because there wasn't a lot of cinnamon toast crunch.    Told me to go to the store yesterday (the day he carried on about me wasting gas and cheating on him. 

I've been thinking about the counseling thing.  I am wondering if I should talk to him the night before about things I want to discuss.  Money issue, the fun sucker thing, the being a stay at home mom, how he thinks I am lazy and stuff when even he said he doesn't know if he can do it.  I admit there are days I slack.  Mostly the days when the boys won't stop fighting or screaming or getting into every little thing.  I've seen him on his days off where they get on his nerves and he tells me he needs to get out of the house.  Another double standard nonsense.

[Cat Familiar]

So tough when you’re dealing with three unruly boys!

You definitely need time to recharge your batteries. So if the house isn’t perfectly clean, so what!

I’m divided upon whether or not to give him a preview of what you want to talk about in counseling. If he’s in a good mood, maybe.

You don’t want to dump a whole load of stuff at once, so which issue is the most pressing in your mind?

If he already doesn’t “fight fair” you might wait until you have the counselor to keep things on the rails.

Whatever you choose to do, it’s a good sign that he’s willing to go with you.

[Frankee]

Sometimes I try to think of him as one of the kids throwing a fit.  He's just meaner about things. 

I can definitely say if this morning is a tell tale sign of the rest of the day, I'm not going to talk to him about anything.  Neighbors woke him up with their lawnmower early as cr@p.  I could clearly see if he was in a bad mood, so I was being aware of things occurring.  The thing that made him blow up, say this was the thing that was going to pi$$ him off, and storm out?  Because I hadn't put soda in the fridge.  Seriously. 

Is anyone else aware of this nonsense?  They are stewing in a bad mood and some stupid thing that they think we "messed up", they use that to word vomit their bad mood on us and take it out on us?  Either he will apologize or he will use this incident to justify all other "wrong doings". 

I cleaned the house yesterday.  I started to prove a point, then ended up doing it because I actually got motivated. 

Anyways, I let him go.  I didn't try to stop him and I'm not going to call him.  He was being a jerk and I didn't deserve the way he acted towards me.

[Cat Familiar]

Sometimes I try to think of him as one of the kids throwing a fit.  He's just meaner about things. 

The thing that made him blow up, say this was the thing that was going to pi$$ him off, and storm out?  Because I hadn't put soda in the fridge.  Seriously. 

Anyways, I let him go.  I didn't try to stop him and I'm not going to call him.  He was being a jerk and I didn't deserve the way he acted towards me.

You are really getting the hang of this Frankee!  It's not fun, not fair, but it does defuse things and can make our lives much more tolerable.

It seems he has a pattern of getting dysregulated when he's woken up early. Not a lot you can do about that considering you have young boys and you cannot control exterior noise such as lawn mowing.

What this tells me is that his sleep hygiene is not so good. IDK, but I would bet lots of pwBPD are running on empty regarding good sleep. The latest research on sleep deprivation shows that even mild sleep deprivation as a regular pattern (such as 5-6 hours a night) can produce mood swings and be as debilitating as being legally intoxicated--regarding driving and other tasks that require full attention. Lots of people say they get by on little sleep, but the data says those folks are a true rarity.

Alcohol and coffee further contribute to poor quality of sleep and inability to fall asleep if they're consumed in the late afternoon or evening. And who drinks alcohol in the morning? That indicates other issues. So if not enough good quality sleep impacts emotionally healthy people in ways that undermines good intellectual functioning as well as emotional regulation--you can imagine how it affects people who already have problems with emotional regulation.

My husband used to stay up regularly until 2 or 3 in the morning then complain about not being able to sleep well. I tried to talk him into having a regular bedtime. You know how JADE works! 

So what I started doing was to go to bed every night by 10:30. Having a good night of sleep certainly gave me a lot more emotional resources to deal with him. And to my surprise, he's started to go to bed earlier on a regular basis too.

Yes, any excuse--even the flimsiest such as no cold sodas--is good enough for a pwBPD when they need to blame someone else for their bad mood.

[Frankee]

It all finally came to a point.  He fnally had it and tried to blame me for not doing the one thing he asked me to do when he gets angry.  Hug him.  Said that I could had easily calmed him down and I knew he had been mad last couple days and have done nothing about it.  I had to seriously take a moment to where I didn't completely lose my $hit with him.

All of it came out.  Told him I was really upset he keeps taking stuff out on me when I know his bad mood is not my fault.  Tried to tell me that I am his wife and of course he was going to take stuff out on me and I know there is a bigger issue than cold sodas or water.  I explained that I do usually know there is a bigger reason he is upset, but doesn't mean I am going to keep allowing him to talk to me the way he does and hug him and say every thing is going to be okay after he bellows at me about something small and stupid like friggin sodas.

It was a pretty bad fight.  A lot of issues were brought up than are still not resolved, but seem to be less intense.  At one point we were even discussing custody of the kids and taking stuff to court.  I actually got so tired of everything and over the past week, just compounded negative emotions.  It finally ended with me telling him that I was even entertaining leaving again because I was so flippin mad.  He seemed okay with me saying it because I was just so mad and frustrated.

Think I learned to not let things built up.  This last week was rough and I was aware of more things happening, but not really sure how to handle everything going on.  If a simple hug and everything is going to be okay is all it takes next time he whines about nothing cold to drink, I guess I'll do it.