Are you "caretaking" or "caring"? And what's the difference?

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hello everyone who is learning from this amazing, often exhausting, journey we are taking,

In the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, How to End the Drama and Get on with Your Life by Margalis Fjelstad, there is a lot to be learned about the difference between being a "caretaker" and being "caring". 

Here's a small excerpt from the book "Being caring of the BP/ NP would mean allowing the BP/ NP to be just who he or she is. It would include caring that the BP/ NP is angry, hurt, fearful, and demanding without feeling responsible to “make” him or her feel better, without feeling that you “caused” the problem, and without thinking that you have to fix his or her feelings or do what the BP/ NP wants.

Let me give a personal example of how this played out for me.  Just recently, my husband reached out to tell me of a problem he was having.  In the past, I would have kicked it into high gear brainstorming ways to fix his problem.  However, this time, I listened to what he had to say, I validated his feelings about the problem, and when he said he was going to need some help, I asked what he would like for me to do to help.  Fjelstad suggests the person who is having the problem should
decide what help is needed.


I felt so proud of myself for not feeling guilty or responsible for his problem.  I cared that he was having troubles, but didn't jump into the middle of it. 

So here is my question for you - Do you feel responsible for solving the problems of others?  Have you made progress moving from caretaking to caring?  If so, how did you do it?  If not, what is holding you back?  Thoughts on the excerpt?

Here is a link to the BPD Family review of the book mentioned above,  I highly recommend this book.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.msg12271876#msg12271876

I am looking forward to hearing from many of you on this topic.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

[Mutt]

Do you feel responsible for solving the problems of others?

Today for me it’s two fold yes and no. I say today because if you ask me again I’m a year or two I hope that I can give a different answer.

My uBPDexw is giving me a really hard time this past month the most that I’ve had from her since our break up. I think that there’s something going in her life she might if broken up with the man that she left me for. She’s breaking the court order by keeping the kids and refusing to give them to me unless we make a deal outside of the courts - of course it’s all her way. She’s been harassing the daycare because she wanted me to give her my S10 on my time to my D12 that’s staying with her. D12 is SI and god forbid if something happened if she was watching S10 at uBPDw’s it could scar him for life and she’s being parentified.

I served her last week for breaking the court order and I’m going to try to get a note from the daycare about her harassing then and brining that up at court. My point is that at one point she was the central figure in my life and I was her helper and fixed and I was always felt responsible for her feelings I was a caretaker. I care because I care about the kids if I didn’t have kids with her I would have closed the door completely in her and never open it nor even a crack. At one point I couldn’t fathom doing that to her.

Now in the flipside I have a non relationship relationship with my exgf ( it’s complicated ) My uBPDexw is more Queen / Witch than the current person that I’m seeing she’s more Waif / Hermit Im not saying that she’s borderline but she s certainly waiting and at times I find that a lot harder than Queen for some reason. I want to stop seeing her in a romantic way but she has all of these things going on and watching her from the outside I can see that she’s not taking care of herself to me she’s almost at her breaking point. She’s going through a divorce albeit she’s at the tail end and her mom got diagnosed with stage 3 cancer a little while ago. She had a tumor removed and although that they don’t detect cancer she refuses chemotherapy some doctors say that she should and others say that she doesn’t have to. For those two reasons I’m having a really hard time letting go.

I have no qualms with being a wall of steel with my exuBPDex and I still care behind that wall and with my exgf im struggling to set a hard boundary with her I want break up completely because I don’t like how she sends mixed signals all of the time and she projects and emotionally blackmails. I’m working on it though. Good book by the way Mstbeabetterway and good topic.

[BeagleGirl]

This is an awesome topic, and very timely for me.  I'm about to spend 4 days with my FOO as we prepare for and attend my grandma's funeral and the "caretaking" urge is already in overdrive. 

Like Mutt, I think I've made more progress controlling the caretaking with dBPDxh than with my FOO, but I took a big step today. 

I've kept my parent's pretty much in the dark about dBPDxh's hurtful behaviors.  For them, the separation and divorce came out of the blue because they live 2000 miles away and I was pretty good at keeping up appearances.  I've realized over the past year that I've taken responsibility not only for dBPDxh's reputation and relationship with them, but also for protecting their feelings.  Today I told my mom about dBPDxh dating the church secretary and was open about it starting before our legal separation was final.  I didn't share anywhere near everything, but I share enough that mom commented that things were starting to make a bit more sense. 

I'm sure I'll be doing my fair share of caretaking this weekend, because old patterns are hard to break and this is an emotional time for our family, but a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. 

I have been thinking a lot lately about WHY I do the caretaking.  I think feeling needed feels like being loved to me.  It's something I'm trying to sort out.  I can definitely see the roots of that in my FOO dynamics.  What I haven't figured out yet is how to shift away from that.  Anyone else feel this way?  Any tips that helped you?

BG

[MeandThee29]

Some caretaking may be necessary. Mine needed a lot of caretaking because of ongoing medical problems, and I sought to always be there for him emotionally. There were sometimes many months at a time where I expected very little from him because of that. But he fell into a pattern of expecting me to fill every emotional gap in him, and no one can do that. I blamed myself for a long time for not being what he needed.

The reality is that we all ultimately have to be responsible for our own happiness. I enjoy caring from my two young adults and friends, but I don't demand it and don't expect that they are going to fill all of my holes. I respect that they have other concerns every day.

It's interesting that I've always been good at caring for other people and have a wide range of friends and family that love me, but with him, I got into caretaking. I was convinced that if I gave enough, I would turn it around. I crossed the line and didn't set boundaries.

Hard, hard lessons.
 

[Mustbeabetterway]

Good morning,

Mutt boy, that's a lot for you to be dealing with.   . Good that you are on top of the daycare situation. I agree, adults should be responsible for supervising children.  I work with tweenage kids (10-13) and they definitely are still figuring things out for themselves.  Too much responsibility is sometimes overwhelming.  I hope that you are able to get this worked out.  On the other topic, are you able to be supportive while backing out of the romantic relationship?  What ways do you think she is not taking care of herself? Perhaps let her ask for help instead of trying to figure out what she needs?  

[Mustbeabetterway]

 

Beaglegirl. So sorry about your grandma.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Ok, something's going on with my post.  More later. 

[Lady Itone]

Normally, I'm not a caretaker or a problem-fixer, and I'm certainly not a people pleaser. But you sure wouldn't guess that had you seen me with my exBPDgf (waif.) On top of being seriously mentally ill, she was 14 years younger than me, had a high-school diploma to my college degree, plus she is a woman of color and I'm not--sorry but white privilege is definitely a thing. It seemed to naturally fall to me to take charge of both our problems. I might have been ok with that if exfg didn't sabotage me every step of the way, even when her own decisions were clearly terrible.

During the 2 1/2 we were cycling on and off, I often acted as her advocate during her frequent hospitalizations, dealing with drs and social workers, plus her school and employment and her family who lives across the country. Sometimes, I was often the only thing keeping her from homelessness. I even let her sleep in a tent in my yard at one point though we were broken up because she had no where else to go upon getting out of the psyche ward.

Ultimately, she needed more help than I could give her. Even if I managed to coax her out of one crises (draining myself in the process) she'd drive herself straight into another soon enough. All my caregiving was for naught as she was hell-bent on her own destruction. Well, I stopped caretaking and interacting, and she's still alive, living in a group home for mentally ill addicts. She's no better or worse off than when I was around, still in and out of psyche wards and rehabs and constantly in crises. I still care about her, but it's out of my hands.  

[Mustbeabetterway]

Beaglegirl In regard to tips, I am very intuitive to people’s moods and can react to that instead of acting from a place within myself.  If I am not mindful, I can become anxious when I sense that others are unhappy, sad, disappointed, angry, etc. then I get into fixing mode.

I have to check within myself and figure out. What is motivating me to fix.  Sometimes it’s because my mood is dependent on others.  They have to be happy for me to be happy and that’s a trap.  Sometimes I am being a martyr, neglecting my needs to help others.  Then I end up depleted.

Something applicable in my own caretaking experience is the Golden Rule.  From a young age, I believed in treating others as I wanted to be treated.  Not until I began recovering from codependency did I realize that I often wasn't sure how I wanted to be treated.  I was always considering others, trying to figure out what they wanted or needed while pushing my own needs aside.  I have really worked at being more in touch, partnering with myself and now I can actually determine how I want to be treated and treat others accordingly.

Meandthee29 I can totally relate to what you are saying.  In the past 5 years or so, my uBPDh has had health issues, as well.  I never could do enough.  It's still as if he wants me to take away his pain. But, part of the problem was the anxiety his discomfort caused in me.  His pain was unbearable for me because I couldn't relieve it.   Even before his medical issues, there was often a problem or crisis that he was having. I spent so much time trying to help that I neglected my own needs. For example, the problem he is having now, typical of so many times in the past.  But, what is different this time is I am not taking it own as my problem.  I care, but I don't feel responsible for solving it. 

Good discussion.  Looking forward to hearing more.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

[Mutt]

On the other topic, are you able to be supportive while backing out of the romantic relationship?  What ways do you think she is not taking care of herself? Perhaps let her ask for help instead of trying to figure out what she needs?

I was thinking about that, that I could sustain a friendship with her she has been supportive, she's not all bad. I think that a problem that she has with me is the same problem that she has with her son that affects her self care. She won't let anyone else watch him because she doesn't want him spoiled, I feel like she's trying to assert a sense of control over me because she doesn't want to lose me - I'm not a toy.

The last couple of weeks she has been trying really hard it feels like she checked back in. I'm not saying that she emotionally checked out she knew that I wasn't going anywhere so she ignored me and focused her attention elsewhere I explained to her that it wasn't the same sometimes I'd wait the entire weekend for her to call when I don't have the kids and she wouldn't call but when she knew that I was moving on she's been doing the things that we used to do. She cooked food for me with a cute note on it she video calls every night she invited me over to her place every day that I didn't have the kids - we were seeing each other once a week.

I feel like she's in survival mode get up go to work and repeat the process she has nothing to break up this routine and she complains that she feels tired all of time. I told her that I was worried about her and I wanted her to talk to a doctor about depression she hasn't this is what I mean by her not taking care of herself. She knew that I wanted to move on and she said don't do this to me right now I can't do this with everything else and I don't have the heart to let go at this time it's even more complicated because I'm interested in someone else that can give me what I want that my exgf can't. She doesn't want a r/s she wants mutual emotional support the other woman wants a r/s.

[Cat Familiar]

I have been thinking a lot lately about WHY I do the caretaking.  I think feeling needed feels like being loved to me.  It's something I'm trying to sort out.  I can definitely see the roots of that in my FOO dynamics.  What I haven't figured out yet is how to shift away from that.  Anyone else feel this way?  Any tips that helped you?


Bingo!   BeagleGirl Thank you!

And sorry about your grandmother.   

[Cat Familiar]

Sometimes it’s because my mood is dependent on others.  They have to be happy for me to be happy and that’s a trap.  Sometimes I am being a martyr, neglecting my needs to help others.  Then I end up depleted.

Something applicable in my own caretaking experience is the Golden Rule.  From a young age, I believed in treating others as I wanted to be treated.  Not until I began recovering from codependency did I realize that I often wasn't sure how I wanted to be treated.  I was always considering others, trying to figure out what they wanted or needed while pushing my own needs aside.

That darned Golden Rule, Mustbe--it got me too.   Like you, I didn't have a clue how I wanted to be treated. However I knew how I didn't want to be treated.

[braveSun]

This is an interesting topic. My spouse is past retirement age, so there is an aging factor in my relationship. Caring is very important, caretaking is very invalidating.

I see it's kind of important that if I proceed with an act of service, I am actually helping. Before we were married, we did help each other on various aspects. I thought of myself educated on the topic of aging. My general approach was 'let the person ask you for help'. Once we got married and living together, she started rejecting my help, and this grew more and more to an uncomfortable level.  I think for me the pitfall was that as she started to paint me black, I started to feel like I wanted to do something good for her. Acts of service became a way to contribute, even though we were not in tune with each other as much through so much conflicts. It has been a painful experience.

I certainly don't want to invalidate her. But has been times when I jumped in and my intuition was correct. Once recently she said that I had saved her life.

Now that she is NC for 3 weeks +, I am feeling a sense of powerlessness. It's in those moments that I wish so much I could do something that will warm her heart up again for me.

I can see how the slip into caretaking can happen for me.

Asking if she needs help from me from times to times did help a bit. On the other hand, doing nothing and expecting for her to ask for everything doesn't feel right either. I would rather think in terms of 'over-reaching' and 'under-reaching' because this is a journey more than a fixed, factual measurement.

[Learning2Thrive]

Great question and topic.  

I am getting much better at this—letting others solve their own issues.

I don’t *want* to solve problems or fix things for others, but after doing it since I was 8 years old (my parents assigned that job to me), it has become a hard habit (behavior) to stop.

I can identify with the wonderful feeling of pride that Mustbeabetterway expressed. I feel such a sense of accomplishment when I am able to just listen, validate, show genuine concern, then let them (whoever it is) manage their own problem solving. I want to feel that more often.

L2T

PS. This brings to mind a saying that one of my adventure cycling bicycle friends shared with me years ago. She said it’s very important to allow each person the dignity of their own suffering.

 

[Cat Familiar]

I am getting much better at this—letting others solve their own issues.

Yeah, me too! I previously had the mistaken idea that I should always fix things for other people. Now I’m remembering that proverb about teaching someone to fish rather than providing them fish.

[Turkish]

I very much had a Daddy-Daughter r/s. My T pointed that out aftwrwards.  One of my friends who is ten years older than me told me that was his observation and he didn't even see us much.  Even in the r/s I used to say "I'm not your father" to which she'd respond "I know you're not my father!" Sure felt like it.  I was secretly horrified when I realized my role,  before the r/ started breaking apart. I didn't have the tools to deal with it.  So I didn't know what to do and likely made things worse. 

After having been through all of that and also moving my BPD mother into my home 3 years after my ex left (and out 4 months later), I'm so cynical now that I don't think I can date because I don't want to hear OPP.

[Enabler]

Over time I have been compelled to feel responsible for my W's problems since her anger is personalised. If there was a positive reward for not jumping to rescue her I think I would have learnt not to rescue... .instead I have learnt (or been conditioned) to rescue out of FOG. I still find myself fighting the compunction to pick up the pieces... .and I wont deny it, pick up the pieces when there isn't even a mess to clear up.

I treat others how I expect to be treated, I knew how I wanted to be treated and I was realistic about the bare minimum of what was reasonable behaviour. My biggest problem has been getting my W to actually reciprocate that reasonable behaviour. I have reasonable mechanisms in place to manage my own boundaries with a person who is capable of self reflecting and responding to reason. I look back at the email discussions me and W have had over the years and I am very very reasonable and measured. I'm naturally contrarian but rarely black or white in my response. The problem was that reason and rational discussion didn't work with W... .when you NEED something for irrational reasons then no amount of JADE is going to change that. It results in a choice, walk away or hand over / drop boundaries / take abuse... .I was not prepared to walk away.

[Enabler]

I very much had a Daddy-Daughter r/s... .Even in the r/s I used to say "I'm not your father" to which she'd respond "I know you're not my father!" Sure felt like it. 

 

[Mustbeabetterway]

Enabler I hear what you are saying, there is a temporary kind of reward for rescuing.  We soothe the person we are rescuing’s pain temporarily.  But, I assert there is an even greater reward for not rescuing (as in the drama triangle). Once we step out of those rigid roles we can make other choices.  We can care without being compelled to take over and fix things for our partners, family members, etc.

Stepping out of the caretaker (rescuer) role  allows everyone to be responsible for themselves.  It doesn’t mean we can’t help.  It’s that we aren’t helping to control the situation, to keep everyone happy (which is not our job) .  As a caretaker, I had lost ability to be emotional by keeping my emotions down low as not to add to the fray.  I kept my needs at bay in order to fulfill another’s needs.  All of this “helping” actually resulted in near catastrophe for my health and well-being.

I am learning to care for myself, acknowledge my emotions and let them be seen and heard, taking care of my own needs as opposed to taking care of another in hopes that they would in turn meet my needs.

There is really honest and open discussion in this thread...   Thanks everyone for sharing.  I’m learning from your responses.

Mustbe

[Enabler]

there is a temporary kind of reward for rescuing. 

I would say it's less rewarding and more not experiencing the pain of enduring someone else's suffering. I find it with my kids as well. The compunction to prevent them from failing... .yet failure is an important part of development.

I feel like a bad parent if they fall and hurt themselves, yet actually, it's necessary.

[Mustbeabetterway]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Enabler, I had alluded to
It before, as you say, it’s wanting to avoid the experience of someone else’s suffering.

As L2T

PS. This brings to mind a saying that one of my adventure cycling bicycle friends shared with me years ago. She said it’s very important to allow each person the dignity of their own suffering.

 

And as cat said

Yeah, me too! I previously had the mistaken idea that I should always fix things for other people. Now I’m remembering that proverb about teaching someone to fish rather than providing them fish.

Some valuable lessons here.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbe

[Learning2Thrive]

Mustbe said,

... .as you say, it’s wanting to avoid the experience of someone else’s suffering.

This is illuminating!   For those of us who have strong intuition and empathy, it is mentally and sometimes physically PAINFUL (triggering) to observe someone else’s suffering. We care so much and want to save them from having to feel their own suffering.

This is where I have fallen short.   Allowing others the dignity of enduring their own suffering provides a pathway for them to develop empathy, compassion and wisdom.

Thanks again for this thread! Really good learning for me.

  L2T

[Cat Familiar]

For those of us who have strong intuition and empathy, it is mentally and sometimes physically PAINFUL (triggering) to observe someone else’s suffering. We care so much and want to save them from having to feel their own suffering.

Yes!
What I've realized is how triggered I've been by perceiving the discomfort of my loved ones. I'm learning to stay in my own lane a bit better now--and in the process, I don't have to do so much. It's nice to have one less burden. And I realize by focusing on others' "stuff" that I'm not dealing with my own.  

[MeandThee29]

Whoa, "the dignity of their own suffering." That is quite a quote.

I went through a period in college where I really thought that I could turn around most troubled students. I was in a staff-level job that required that I interact with a lot of other students. When a student that I had taken twice to the ER for suicide attempts was successful, I was devastated and went to counselling myself about that. The counsellor was a bit cold and clinical and told me to get over myself. I didn't go back to her.

But here I am. I didn't quite learn that lesson. Some level of caretaking may be necessary in marriage at times, but I crossed the line. Ironically my pwBPD would say that I was a highly ineffective caretaker because I failed at meeting his needs. Interesting to see the two sides.

[Cat Familiar]

I went through a period in college where I really thought that I could turn around most troubled students.

Me too, but my "Bodhisattva complex" came a bit later during my brief sojourn in grad school, where I presumed I had the right stuff to become a therapist.   I realized when I dealt with some very troubled people that I was way over my head and that I was trying to intervene in other people's lives instead of straightening out my own. 

Some level of caretaking may be necessary in marriage at times, but I crossed the line. Ironically my pwBPD would say that I was a highly ineffective caretaker because I failed at meeting his needs. Interesting to see the two sides.

Don'tcha love it? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[braveSun]

I can relate to damned if you do, damned if you don't. I mean, there is this thing where you as the non partner realize you cannot change the condition of your loved one. Not that I even thought of myself trying to fix  anything. I just see my reaction for what it is. I tried to do my best to reduce her suffering, and to avoid her and me as much unnecessary pain as possible. But I realized this condition is way bigger than me.

I have to learn when to jump in, and when to let go. I cannot manage her condition for her. That's the slippery slope. Learning when and when is a trial and error process. And with a person who is aging, things keep changing, and sometimes my fears push me to anticipate changes too early. That is a big no no!...

The experience for me is very much like trial by fire.

I like the point Cat is making about being triggered. That's where I'd draw my limit.

I have learned so much about myself in the last years...

Brave

[Harley Quinn]

Great thread Mustbe!

I would say it's less rewarding and more not experiencing the pain of enduring someone else's suffering. I find it with my kids as well. The compunction to prevent them from failing... .yet failure is an important part of development.

I feel like a bad parent if they fall and hurt themselves, yet actually, it's necessary.

Good point you raise here Enabler.  As a parent it can be a fine line.  With children it's hard to see them cry and get all frustrated and upset.  I've been working with my son to help him learn self soothing.  It can be tough at times but we sit with our feelings together when he has a very emotional response to something and I just validate when it's less intense.  If he becomes angry to the point of feeling destructive we have reusable ice cubes for him to go get and hold.  He now tells me when he thinks he needs a bit of time to himself to cool off.  It's unreal! 

I felt the same way about falling initially with S4.  If he had a big bump on his head that meant in my eyes that I hadn't protected him enough.  Now I encourage him to take risks and to be aware of dangers but use his own judgement.  If he is covered in bumps and scrapes I know he's pushed his own limits and it's so wonderful to see him be bold, adventurous and brave.  I'd much rather he was that way than timid and nervous because I've wrapped him in cotton wool.

For a while I noticed he was blaming inanimate objects or other people when he made a mistake or had an accident, so I was quick to add some language which reinforces ownership of our own errors.  I know it's a phase in kids, however it's so important to me that he takes responsibility for his own behaviour.  He knows that we all get things wrong or have accidents sometimes and that's OK. 

I'm conscious I've probably swung in entirely the opposite direction with S4 than I found myself headed previously in relationships and life in general.  My fixing nature was learned young as others have mentioned and was deeply ingrained.
In contrast I will absolutely not do something for him that he can do for himself perfectly well and have encouraged independence all the way along (in an age appropriate way of course).  Practising firm respectful boundaries has been an ongoing project for me and I can relate to feeling proud when I don't enable.  It feels like a huge achievement!

Thanks for posting about this.  Have got a lot from reading all the replies.

Love and light x   

[Enabler]

Yes yes yes.

Whilst we’re on the topic of kids I struggle with not getting cross or even angry with them when the kids do such illogical things. The girls came in really late last night and rather than going to get ready for bed whilst i unloaded the car, they turned on Netflix and started watching TV. I have to say I overreacted which really hurt the feelings of my D8. It felt like such a logical and rational thing to expect them to do I was gobsmacked when they didn’t do it automatically... .but then thinking rationally, why would a child get ready for boring bed when they could watch TV.

I apologised for my overreaction (accountable). It’s tough to know when to expect self help to not only be pushing themselves to do adventurous things, but also unappetising things like homework, bedtime and others, which are ultimately for their long term benefit but at the time are unappealing.

[I Am Redeemed]

This is a great thread Mustbe, I learned so much from reading it.

I think I learned to feel responsible for others' feelings at an early age. My father was able to use emotional blackmail very well and he was probably the reason why I started to believe that I had to fix other people's problems and feelings. if someone was suffering and I didn't DO something, then that would be selfish of me, right? That is what I believed and it is what still gets me caught up today. That is why I struggle with boundaries. I sometimes cannot tell the difference between being responsible for and being responsible to. ("Boundaries" book- we are responsible for ourselves and responsible to others.) I just don't know how to figure it out sometimes.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Mutt sorry it’s taken so long for me to get back around to your answers about your friend you have been worried about.   It seems that she does want to hold onto you.  You’ve probably been a great support to her.  The sad thing is you can see she is struggling, but she has to decide to help herself.  How are things going on that front now?  I know you have had your hands full with other things, too. 

Redeemed hi!  This is a topic that I have been interested in.  I think I learned this at an early age too.  My mom always felt sorry for people.  So much that she enabled when she shouldn’t have.  I’m a lot like that.  I think I am kind and I like that about myself, but I have to be careful to not do for people what they can do for themselves and should do for themselves.

I think being responsible to others (not for others) means being kind, being supportive but not overstepping into their responsibilities. 

It’s kind of funny, I have been practicing minding my own business.  When I am in public, my antenna can go up when I sense that someone is in need.  That has sometimes led to me trying to help people who don’t really want my help.  It’s almost comical.  Now I make myself wait and see if someone needs my help or not. 

Mustbe

[Cat Familiar]

Now I make myself wait and see if someone needs my help or not.  

Good advice, Mustbe! Recently I've asked my husband if he wanted help on a couple of occasions before automatically trying to be helpful. To my surprise, he said "No."   

Here I thought I was being a good partner, kind and helpful. Probably to him, I was overstepping boundaries and being invalidating.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thanks, cat

Thanks, cat

[Mustbeabetterway]

Good morning, bpdfamily,

I know some of us feel the need to “rescue” others, especially our SO, from natural consequences.  Here is an article that may be of interest by the authors of the book Boundaries

The Law of Reaping and Sowing
Dr. Henry Cloud and John Townsend
June 10, 2016

Just google it if you are interested.  If you read the article, perhaps we could start another thread about consequences.  What do you think?

It also says to me that I should choose my actions carefully, because actions lead to natural consequences.  Comments?

Peace and blessings,

Mustbe