After a lull, very near to breaking point PART 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Dragon72,

I'm on your side, we all are.  Only you can control what comes out of your mouth... and... dude... I totally get how difficult this is.


FF analogy:  When your wife starts playing with gas... .don't open a book of matches...


The gas will catch on fire... and the fire will get worse BEFORE it burns out.

When we came out my wife gave me the nastiest of looks and started to tell my son about the dangers of sex abusers and that nobody should be allowed to put their finger in his bottom.

I asked her if she had something to say to me. She said, "I'm just saying, that's all". 
"Are you saying that you think I'm capable of sexually assaulting my own son?" I asked.
"Just saying".

I left the room.
 

I'm positive that if you had not challenged her... .it would have ended.  I have the greatest amount of empathy for why you did it... .I'm a lover of clarity.  "Seeking clarity" with my pwBPD has gotten me in more trouble than I can describe... .

And... here is the truth.  I guarantee you... .

There is no clarity in there to find... .there is BPD.  What you seek is not there to find.

I have lots more to say... .but I'm going to stop this post with a big point.

You can diffuse this at home... .I don't for a minute think she is thoughtfully trying to make an accusation.

She reacted (based on her own experiences).

You know this... .  This is gasoline and matches... .don't play with it anymore.  Nothing good will come from challenging this aspect of your wife.

What do you think of my post?

FF

[formflier]

Dragon72,

I'm on your side, we all are.  Only you can control what comes out of your mouth... and... dude... I totally get how difficult this is.


FF analogy:  When your wife starts playing with gas... .don't open a book of matches...


The gas will catch on fire... and the fire will get worse BEFORE it burns out.

When we came out my wife gave me the nastiest of looks and started to tell my son about the dangers of sex abusers and that nobody should be allowed to put their finger in his bottom.

I asked her if she had something to say to me. She said, "I'm just saying, that's all". 
"Are you saying that you think I'm capable of sexually assaulting my own son?" I asked.
"Just saying".

I left the room.
 

I'm positive that if you had not challenged her... .it would have ended.  I have the greatest amount of empathy for why you did it... .I'm a lover of clarity.  "Seeking clarity" with my pwBPD has gotten me in more trouble than I can describe... .

And... here is the truth.  I guarantee you... .

There is no clarity in there to find... .there is BPD.  What you seek is not there to find.

I have lots more to say... .but I'm going to stop this post with a big point.

You can diffuse this at home... .I don't for a minute think she is thoughtfully trying to make an accusation.

She reacted (based on her own experiences).

You know this... .  This is gasoline and matches... .don't play with it anymore.  Nothing good will come from challenging this aspect of your wife.

What do you think of my post?

FF

[Dragon72]

I don't honestly know what I think of your post, ff.

As you pointed out, it's hard to control what comes out of one's mouth sometimes.

And when someone is passively (but very) aggressively and in all seriousness accusing me of being an incestuous pedo, my first instinct is not to say "You're entirely reasonable to think that I'm sexually abusing my own son, robbing my own money, installing tracking software on your devices, having an affair with every female I come within 20 feet of.  Yep, I'm totally cool with the fact you, my wife, think I'm a monster".

But I'm human, so my response was, and probably will always be along the lines of, "Are you nuts? Do you not know me?".

I can stop myself from JADE'ing about not having done the ironing, but about something so serious and heinous, no way man.

What it boils down to is the ability to live happily with the fact that the person who's supposed to love you thinks you're evil scum, albeit due to some historical trauma that had zero to do with me.

I'm not sure I want to do that. I have been doing that for 5 years, just not happily. And I want to be happy for once in my life.

[Radcliff]

Go back and read my last reply carefully.  We are not suggesting that you validate the invalid.  Your emotional reaction to such awful accusations from her is completely understandable.  But it is not effective, and if you're not willing to adjust your approach your risk of this escalating into a situation that threatens your parenting and your job is higher.

We are not suggesting that you lay down like a doormat.  "nons" who bend over backwards to agree with the distorted reality of their pwBPD end up in a bad place.  You do need to have boundaries and not violate your personal integrity, you need to acknowledge your own needs.

But you must realize that she is playing by a different set of rules.  She is not capable of playing by our rational set of rules.  She is not doing this to be evil or difficult.  She has been severely damaged.  It is not fair for you to have to shoulder the burden of harms that happened to her long ago.  But there you are.  You have a son with her.  We want to help you look out for yourself and be effective (think about how hard formflier is telling you not to be an ATM; we definitely don't want you to be a doormat).

Can you go back and look at my last reply and tell me what you think I'm saying?  You are in a tight spot.  We've been in similarly bad spots.  We feel for you and want to help you improve things.  Let us help you.

WW

[Cat Familiar]

So, Dragon, you’re not sure this relationship is sustainable for you and you’re fed up dealing with unfounded and nasty insinuations attacking your character.

What are your options at this point? Where do you see yourself in another five years?

[formflier]

I can stop myself from JADE'ing about not having done the ironing, but about something so serious and heinous, no way man.

 

So... .if you are drawing the line here, that is your choice.  If you are doing to continue to "validate" her accusations with those "jade like" responses or responses that pour gas on her dysregulation... .I can't in good conscience recommend you continue to live with her.

This isn't a run message, but a message to help you clarify that impact of YOUR choices.

If you aren't going to lead in this area and change the dynamic, it will get worse (barring her going to therapy for a long time on her own)

Do you really believe she has the capacity to "lead" on this and change?

FF

[formflier]

  She is not capable of playing by our rational set of rules. 

This is reality... .

I'm so sorry to point this out to you.  I really am... .

It can get better.  No idea (yet) if it can be "fixed".  These journey's take years (look at my story). 

I don't want to detract from your story at this point... .from your reality.

 

FF

[Dragon72]

Yes, I am fed up.

Options?
Carry on as normal. Get walked over like a doormat, continue getting bled dry financially, have a miserable wife who gives me no affection or emotional intimacy, who won't work with me or support me and who paints me black at every opportunity.

Go down the ff/ww route, learn to accept and deflect the accusations and awful behaviours. Stop the flow of money and still have a miserable volatile wife because she's not getting her way and who deliberately won't cooperate financially.  Live with an emotional cripple whom I long since ceased to love. Have a life-sentence of trying to train a dysfunctional partner.

Call it a day. Get bled dry by the courts, have much less time with my son. Have to coparent with a bitter and uncooperative divorcee.  Have the possibility of finding a relationship that is actually fulfilling. Look forward to coming home to a strife-free house in the evenings. Breathe.  Be me.

[LongGame]

Who do we know on the boards who has experience in effectively prepping themselves for false allegations on a UBPD?

Not to freak you out (anymore than you already are) but I think this is very very important to plan for and be proactive with.

My wife does very similar things. Accusing me of things that I don’t even want to post on this board. None of which are true. And threatening to press charges all the time (through our children, because she doesn’t speak to me).

Here is what I did. I went to the police myself.

I read the book “Splitting”, about divorcing a pwBPD, even though I have no intention of doing so. I wanted to see if there was anything I could take away from the book in case she initiated something.

One of the things they recommended was to file a police information report. You can do this to just give the police information. I was fortunate enough to find out that our local police force has a CIT unit (crisis intervention team) that specializes in dealing with mental illness. I sat down with the unit commander and told him our whole story and all of the false accusations my wife is threatening and asked how they can help me to maintain peace in the family and prevent any negative consequences for our children. They were thankful, because it was preventative as opposed to reactive. We filed an informational case, and got a case number to reference in case a police call was needed. Now they have the back story on record and can assist from a mental illness point of view as opposed to a domestic dispute point of view. And there is a record of responsibility on my part.

That is what I did. I don’t know if it was the right thing or not, but it gave me a lot of peace to prepare instead of react.

-LG

[formflier]

Call it a day. Get bled dry by the courts, have much less time with my son. Have to coparent with a bitter and uncooperative divorcee.  Have the possibility of finding a relationship that is actually fulfilling. Look forward to coming home to a strife-free house in the evenings. Breathe.  Be me.

Is this the option your attorney laid out for you?

How long did the attorney say this would take?  How much would it cost?  How will mental health play into this?

You have options.  I'm sorry you are having to pick from this list.

Did you have the meeting with the MC?

FF

[formflier]

  Now they have the back story on record and can assist from a mental illness point of view as opposed to a domestic dispute point of view. And there is a record of responsibility on my part.
 

As a general statement... .this is a wonderful thing to do.  LG... .did you have a lawyer help you? 

Remember Dragon is in Mexico.


Back to LG's story.  I'll validate the authorities would want to have this information.  I was a "county manager" for two different counties.  This means I was "over" the Sheriff and 911 system (in the US most counties have these as two hadifferent departments).

Anyway... .when a call comes in the address information pops up.  The 911 operator can access a special "notes" section that gives them history.  They can also see previous records of calls to that property.

This way the responding officials will know some history before they show up.

As another aside, this also works well for elderly and disabled.  Many people put door and/or garage "codes" in the 911 system.  That way authorities aren't faced with busting down a door or otherwise "breaking in" to do a welfare check.

FF

[Radcliff]

I think preventive trips to the police station can be a great strategy in some cases.  It sounds like it worked well for LongGame, and it can work well in other cases like a female pwBPD who is violent against her partner (where the 911 notes system formflier mentions can help protect a male victim from arrest).  I am not thinking it's a good idea in your case -- you have one uncomfortable incident in your home and no indication yet that she'll go outside your home.  You are also in Mexico.  LongGame's advice to read up and be prepared is excellent.

I think you are misunderstanding formflier's and my advice.  We've said nothing to tie our advice to staying in the relationship.  Even if you were actively working a plan to get divorced, we'd be saying the same things to you.  In fact especially if you were planning to divorce her, you should listen to our advice.  If you actively fight her on the sexual abuse topic, you're guaranteeing that it will become a persistent issue in your marriage, and greatly increasing the chances that it would become an issue in a divorce.

Our objective is to teach you about the forces you're up against and some survival skills to decrease your misery, decrease your danger, and allow you to build some strength and feel less out of control.  Once the situation has stabilized, you can start to think about whether to invest in the relationship or leave it.  Does that make sense?

WW

[pearlsw]

I can stop myself from JADE'ing about not having done the ironing, but about something so serious and heinous, no way man.

What it boils down to is the ability to live happily with the fact that the person who's supposed to love you thinks you're evil scum, albeit due to some historical trauma that had zero to do with me.

I'm not sure I want to do that. I have been doing that for 5 years, just not happily. And I want to be happy for once in my life.

I have to say, I relate to this. Being treated like you are the neighborhood pedophile says a lot about the state of the relationship in my book. This is serious, heinous, and across the line.

While I appreciate the cautious approach that others are bringing based upon their experiences, I have to say, based upon my own life experiences and knowing the culture/country you are living in and the difficulties of being in another country... .ay, ay, ay!

How is her family with you? Do they like you and see you as family? In my family some people who married in were elevated to a very high status, others were decidedly not. Has her family taken you in as one of them or are you an outsider to them? Is there anyone in her family who recognizes she has issues and would give you any support around your parenting?

with compassion, pearl.

[pearlsw]

I think preventive trips to the police station can be a great strategy in some cases.  

With all due respect to a country I love... .Cops aren't well paid and force you to pay them bribes in the streets where he is in my direct experience. I'll just stop there and not get too dark on this topic.

I also know someone who was falsely accused of a sexual crime and was dragged through the legal system over it so I admit my spidey senses are tingling on a lot of this. I know ya'll mean well, really, really well. But for one moment put yourself in the shoes of someone who is being accused of this - directly or by innuendo. We've all dealt with false accusations to one degree or another, but this rises to another level in my opinion. (And if it doesn't seem so, perhaps we've all gotten a bit too accustomed to this kind of behavior.)

While all in all the work he needs to do here is the same... .I want to at least say I feel for you! Being falsely accused in this particular way hits a person at their core in a way that isn't easily shrugged off.

take care, pearl.

[pearlsw]

Let's pause for a minute.  :)ragon72 is vulnerable, yes.  But at this point, we are not looking at an abuse claim to outsiders.

Is this accurate Dragon72? Do you think she has said anything to anyone she knows painting you in this light? Or not?

Assume she was sexually abused as a child.  No need to go digging for it or to confirm it.  With the presence of BPD and her recent behavior, it seems likely enough to use the assumption to help inform your approach.  I would not discuss it with her, because... .

I agree that you can assume she probably has been, but I think, as she is your wife you can try to have such conversations, though obviously of course not when she is dysregulating. I know my SO's ex wife was sexually abused and this influenced a lot of her parenting. She also had mental health issues and it was nevertheless discussed. This may not be the day or week for it, but this does not rule out that such a conversation(s) could ever happen. In fact, if it never comes out between you two, and she continues to have no help of any kind with processing it, I imagine you will continue to have relationship issues of one kind or another that stem from it.

We are talking about one unsettling interaction.

Is this accurate Dragon72? I think your thread describes several such incidents, is that correct? Are there more?

I'll just go ahead and stop here for now, but I sincerely hope you are doing okay!

~pearl.

[Dragon72]

I have no idea whether or not she has told anybody.  

All I know is that the morning after the accusation (yesterday morning) she took him to her brother's house and hasn't been back since. She briefly called yesterday evening to say they would be spending the night there.

Yes, there have been several incidents of this sort.  Previous accusations of "inappropriate sexual behaviour" such as my son sitting on my lap, both of us fully clothed, and him in pijamas lying on top of my bed while I was under the covers, also clothed.  I raised that with the T who questioned my wife on what was wrong with that.  There are also the accusations of theft of family money with no proof.  Also my wife has repeatedly accused me of tracking her cellphone activity with spyware.  When the T heard about this she asked my wife what evidence she had. None.  My wife is convinced that when she hears a ringing in her ears that people are speaking ill of her.  I know that's a saying, but my wife is convinced it's an actual real thing and that she (plus one or two of her siblings) has this magic ability.

In the T session this morning, the T said that she thinks that my wife suffers from paranoid psychoses and a personality disorder.  :)efinitely not neurotypical.  Due to psychologist/client privilege, the T would not be able to support my cause in a court.  She thought that maybe a judge could order a mental health assessment depending on the perceived risk to the child.

The T helped me to think about our relationship, all that has happened, each of the stay/change/go options that were raised and I think that after speaking to her I have come to the conclusion that, like pearlsw says, a line has been crossed.  An accusation of this sort, together with all the others and all the histrionics and demonizing and silent treatments and gaslighting and guilt tripping, is the last piece of evidence that I needed that this is a relationship devoid of trust and empathy and, dare I say it, love and that I do not have the skills to change that.  

I spoke to my lawyer on the phone.  He said that the divorce part is a cinch.  Al little bit of paper work, 9 or so months, and it's done.  The REALLY hard part is agreeing the custody, alimony and child maintenance.  That's when the courts might have to come into play if we can't come to an agreement.

As for getting court-ordered mental health assessments, he too said that would only happen if there is a perceived risk to the child.  He said that the fact that she sleeps with him would not be considered a perceived risk, in spite of the fact that it goes against the advice given on more than one occasion by our son's school psychologists.  And none of the other behaviors, while incredibly frustrating for me, would be considered putting our son at risk.

Anyway, that's all further down the road once it's been shown that agreements on custody and money haven't been reached.

I'm meeting my lawyer for a beer on Monday (he's also the proprieter of a microbrewery!) and we'll discuss further.

I'm well aware of the fact that I am in a country where justice is a joke, corruption is rife and foreigners are not always treated fairly.  

All that said, I'm still conflicted.

[Dragon72]

She's back now.
Acting as if nothing happened. 
She's lost her voice (throat infection).  Bummer.

[Dragon72]

She wasn't happy when I told her I was going to meet my friend (the lawyer) for a beer at his microbrewery.  She hasn't made a connection between his day job and why we'd meet up.  At least I don't think so.  I pitched it as us meeting as friends. Which is in part true.

Anyway, she asked my if he'd invited just me or the whole family. "Just me", I said.
"Why not the whole family?"
"Well I guess it's like the other day when your sister invited just you to spend the day and not me too."
"He should have invited all of us."
"Well it's just us guys"
"I don't have a problem with it"
"Cool"
"I don't have a problem with it", she repeated.

It sounded like she has a problem with it.

Good ol' abandonment issues.

[pearlsw]

My wife is convinced that when she hears a ringing in her ears that people are speaking ill of her.  I know that's a saying, but my wife is convinced it's an actual real thing and that she (plus one or two of her siblings) has this magic ability.

In the T session this morning, the T said that she thinks that my wife suffers from paranoid psychoses and a personality disorder.  


All that said, I'm still conflicted.

Hi Dragon72,

Oh yes, I know there is a lot of cultural stuff that would fall into the category of magical thinking. Though not mentally ill, a few of my relatives express some things in this realm... .having senses of things happening before they happen, etc.

Hey, I was thinking a bit more about what I read from the beginning here, and sorry I didn't mention it sooner... .but is there a jealousy issue with your wife and your son? I mean, is she jealous of the attention/love you are giving him? Is that some of why she is in this tug of war with you over him? She sees you doting on him and she wants him to like her more or something? I know, in this same background/culture there can be a lot of favoritism with children/family members. I wonder if she is vying to be the "favorite" of the child at all costs?

Yes, I understand, even in the most difficult of circumstances it is hard for our non brains not to want to somehow just make things right if we at all can. I know I can't grasp the level of dysfunction in my relationship sometimes and I just keep thinking, this will get better, right? And it just doesn't. As in any case, there may be reasons to stay or go and we'll support you as you need.

take care, pearl.

p.s. sounds like you may have a cool lawyer there! wishing you the best of luck with that!

[formflier]

Dragon,

Why on earth are you telling her about meeting this guy... .?  NOO... .

You are playing with fire... .

Privacy in legal discussions is critical.  Much better that she freaks out about what she doesn't know... than what she does know.

Dragon,

The quick version of my advice is that your privately discuss your law options.  I think you need to start a different thread on legal to handle that.

I think you need to have at least one more joint session with MC to discuss together the way forward.  Again... more discussion needed before you go, but I think it is important that you talk as a group about changes in your relationship.   

There is a chance you can "follow advice" and not be as much of a bogeyman as if it "was all your idea".

FF

[kells76]

Hi Dragon72,

I'm usually over on the family law boards, but I've been following some threads over here on conflicted, too. Please feel free to come on over for law & parenting support. You don't have to be divorced or specifically going down that road to post there.

My DH's ex (uBPD) has accused him of "emotionally abusing" the kids, pulled the kids out of the school where he got a job, said in a legal response that he sexually harassed someone at his work, and -- right after setting the summer parenting time schedule -- said she was "afraid he would abuse the kids". This has lasted... .I can't even remember, but years.

This is hard stuff. I'm so sorry your W made that move. As many have suggested, perhaps she was abused as a child. At this point, I wonder if the more pressing matter is that whatever happened to her, she's acting like she feels like she was abused. I think this is at play with DH's ex. And, feelings are facts... .

Dr Craig Childress is US-based (California, I think), and had a big section on his web site about dysfunctional parenting behaviors where one parent reenacts their own perceived childhood trauma, but with their own child as "young them" and them as the heroic rescuer. It's like they want to rewrite history. Unfortunately someone has to be the "abuser" in order to "successfully" reenact the past. For us, DH was cast in that role.

Understanding that psychology might be something that could help you understand what's going on. You could try Googling "Craig Childress" and reading some of the articles. This one (www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=69&TID=6&FN=pdf) is long and designed for professionals but has a good section on reenacting trauma.

I know you're going through a lot right now. Don't hesitate to get more support over on law/parenting.

kells76

[Radcliff]

kells76 makes a good recommendation with Childress.  I have read one article from him on "jujitsu parenting" that was good, though probably aimed at folks with slightly older kids.

One of the most powerful things about this board is the variety of perspectives.  formflier and I each have decades of experience in a BPD marriage.  We are experts at living to fight another day.  pearlsw has a lot of relationship experience with "nons," knows the culture you're living in very well, and has successfully used assertiveness to protect herself in her relationship with her BPD partner.  I don't think what we're saying is incompatible.  Think of the example of a duck, looking calm above the water, but paddling furiously under the water.  formflier and I have emphasized not engaging in an open debate about sexual abuse, and not letting on that she might have power there or letting on that you're examining legal options.  The more antagonized or fearful your wife gets, the more extreme her actions.  But as pearlsw says, this is no time to get walked on.  We are all saying you should be working very hard to learn and plan for the worst.  

It's excellent that you're meeting with the lawyer.  How did it go?  It's a great suggestion to start a post on the Legal board.  If you do, post a link here so we can follow you.

You said that you have concluded with professional advice that your wife's condition is very serious, and you don't have the tools to improve it.  You also have said you're conflicted.  Both things make total sense.  Sadly, none of the paths available to you is attractive.  It takes time to learn about the complicated issues of staying vs. going, custody and spousal support etc.  I'm sorry things are so tough, but we'll stick with you.

WW

[pearlsw]

I guess what I'd like to emphasize, is there are words and there are words. I have been called a "dirty wh*re" by my SO and that was pretty bad, extreme, and over the line in my book. I chose not to name call back, but I made it pretty clear I would not be talked to in this way. Further, there is no law against vulgar insults. He technically can say such things, but only I can attempt to stop this from happening again - make it clear this is unacceptable and set up and enforce boundaries. I have not been able to protect myself in every way, but there are things that are simply intolerable and unacceptable.

How Dragon72 is being talked to is at a whole other level. The details she made up about how he touches his own child, and how he and the child express affection - this is serious and the places it can go are real and dangerous.

I know of a pair who had marital discord over religious reasons. The wife soon after kidnapped the kids to take control of the parenting for herself entirely and cut him out. She was pretty successful and the legal system was pretty accommodating of her crimes all in all.

There are now, and will continue to be without some serious intervention, considerable disputes over parenting between Dragon and his wife. His wife is labeling him/treating him as a sexual abuser. This isn't just "I don't want the kid to sleep overnight somewhere", this is "you are touching your own child in a sexual way", blah, blah, blah. His own child. If it was about the parents disagreeing over whether the child can sleep over at a friend's house that is one thing, there are compromises, but this is him being directly called something that would make any human not doing such things thoroughly appalled. There is no compromise with being told you are sexually abusing your own child.

I agree, and have all along, that Dragon72 should avoid showing his hand on this. An angry spouse is a powerful enemy when s/he wants to be.

I have to respectfully disagree with FF that if Dragon had backed off the conversation would have died. Number one, you'd have to be near saint-like not to react to an accusation of incest/sexual abuse. I agree with Dragon, this isn't a run of the mill accusation. In some cases backing off does give her a "win" and empowers her to say it again, after all, she got away with it. "He didn't dispute it, she must be right" is how things work in the regular world. (Though this is of course a distorted version of reality they are living.)

I was accused a few times of trying to kill, well, attempt to kill my SO. I heard him coughing, and got up and took water to him, thinking I was being nice, and he got upset, well, he was already upset, and he said the water must have poison in it. He pulled this one with me twice. Twice made this comment. No, I did not react strongly in the moment. I did not yell, or insult, or get visibly upset (it was dark), but this sure as heck did come up later at exactly the time and place of my choosing. I brought it up in front of his psychiatrist, first visit, and funny thing... .he "did not mean it" it turns out. Funny how those words, when exposed to an outside party, aren't ones he really means anymore. Quite curious really. He didn't apologize to me or feel any apparent remorse until his behavior was exposed to a third party. Then, he "didn't mean it." An accusation of attempted murder.

I think being accused of attempted murder or pedophilia merits a solid red line. Solid. I do not expect I'll ever hear these particular accusations again. Period.

This pedophilia one is even more serious. It involves a third party, the child, and other potential people who will hear this slur. You don't cross back over this line. It is something you get under control... .or this tool she has will get more and more powerful and he'll be like a hostage to her, like WW was over his kids perhaps?

But this is just my opinion. I think there are a lot of situations you can work with, and some that are so over the line things may not come back from there - his choice. It sounds like Dragon and his wife don't have physical intimacy anyway, but I know if my SO accused me of being a pedophile he would not be having any kind of sexual access to me (or very much of anything from me) after such a comment until he took it so far back it was the last century.

This isn't about getting walked on. This is a big first step of him losing control over the parenting of his own child. And him being the responsible, healthy parent, versus the seriously mentally ill one... .How painful for him to watch his own child be turned against him by his spouse. You can't sit there and watch your dreams die without a fight. I feel like every guy I've ever been friends with has lost these battles ultimately, but still... .you can't go down without a fight to protect your reputation, your child, your chance to parent.

Again, I am not saying "fight her" by slinging insults, arguing, making more drama. I am agreeing that he needs to get help and get ready because if this was the end of things on her part that would be the surprise. I am saying he has to stand his ground on this one. A giant alarm is going off and can't be ignored or brushed aside. What's that Mexican saying? "Better to die standing, then live on your knees".

wishing you the best, pearl.

[formflier]

We'll never know for sure if stopping would have gotten a different result.

The nuance here is that there is paranoia about sexual abuse and it is very likely (again we don't know for sure) that your wife ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED THIS GROWING UP

To my knowledge, my wife never actually experienced having another adult male have a secret family, another wife... love children and all that.

My wife certainly experienced abuse and invalidation growing up.  Harsh verbal abuse, closed fisted hitting (in the guise of discipline)... etc etc.

So... there is "similarity"... .but perhaps there is some difference because of likelihood of actual experience of your wife.

No effort here to do a "I'm right and others are wrong."

The "theory" of my advice is "to remove the fuel".  The "fact of the matter" is not part of the fuel.  Her feelings are fuel, Dragons words are fuel, Dragons actions are fuel.   Dragons actions and words can also be "fire suppressant" (although that is much harder... at least for me).

Focus first on removing fuel sources.

It appears that your wife is not "being thoughtful" about these allegations... .which leads me to believe my "fuel" theory is most applicable.

However... .I want to be clear about where I'm coming from.  If there are those with more experience "with the sexual abuse thing" (trying to be clear but delicate here)... .that could be a helpful perspective.

I was a SAVI (Sexual Assault Victims Intervention).  So... .I would accompany people to the Emergency Room for the "rape kit" and I would "interface" with the command to get them appropriate time off, without them having to repeat the story.

This was all when the issue was very "acute" (recent).  Even then I had specific training to make myself "not be sexually threatening" or "intimidating" (basically being conscious of "hiding" my genital area, even though I have clothes on).  Kinda going overboard to not present any possible triggers.

Dragon's wife's thing is not "acute".  She has been ruminating on this for years.  It totally makes sense to me that seeing her child's "genital area" anywhere near Dragon's would be emotionally triggering.

My "theory" of my advice is to keep that from moving from emotions to "thoughtful action".

So... .that's what I've got and why... .some similarities and some differences.  

To my knowledge I've never had a conversation with someone that has experienced "childhood sexual trauma/abuse".  Unfortunately I've had a number of conversations with men and women that have experienced that as and adult.  Some seemed to recover well and unfortunately some went from being "normal" to a psych ward... and will likely never be the same again.

To keep the story straight and succinct.  Female sailor experienced a horrific rape and appeared to be on road to recovery.  Another Sailor who was unaware of her experience playfully swatted her on the butt (think football player "good job pat".  

The female sailor collapsed... .was taken to psych ward... .stayed for long time.  Sure she got out, but it is nothing I would call a "recovery".  Very sad...

I tell this story for the purpose of illustrating that even though Dragon has no intention of causing "further sexual harm" to his wife... .by the way he touches his son (even though we all deem it is appropriate)... .we must recognize that whatever has happened in his wife's life experience... .make's it otherwise.

That also is very sad... .and is a big landmine for Dragon to NOT step on.

FF

[Enabler]

From what I have read about trauma reimactment, as FF says, it’s not that you are actually going to commit a sexual/violent/aggressive act, it’s that the situation looks and more likely feels like something in her emotional memory. Comparing the 2 situations feels the same. Another member recently had difficulties with his wife believing a neighbour might be a peodophile and vehemently objected to her son being left to play in his supervision. She was sexually abused as a child... .who knows if it was a neighbour.

In trauma reinactment the once victim now adult attempts to right the wrongs of the past and rescue their child (or adult) in the way they wished they’d be rescued and protected when they were abused.

How do you respect this sensitivity whilst respecting that your son is not being abused by you and should have the freedom to act as a young boy and not alienate a free boy/dad relationship?

[formflier]

Good summary Enabler.  Much better economy of words that I had!

We all know there is absolutely nothing wrong with Dragon having his kid sit on his lap (or anywhere near it).  Yet... .with what we suspect Mrs Dragon brings to the situation.

I can't imagine anything good coming from Dragon doing that anymore. 

Perhaps we can help him think of other physical ways to express/demonstrate closeness that aren't triggering to his wife.


FF

[Radcliff]

Dragon72, what you see us talking about here is really the central question of dealing with a BPD partner -- how to balance being pragmatic about their fears and being assertive to protect ourselves.  We need to be skilled at both.

All of this discussion is reminding me of more detail of things that happened with my wife.  I hadn't remembered until now.  A few times over the years, she accused me of being a risk to my children.  A red light did go off in my head that told me this assertion was different, and I'd need to nip it in the bud.  I said to her in the best calm, confident voice I could muster, "You know the kids are completely safe with me."  There was no anger in my voice or on my face.  I said it as a single statement, with a finality intended to end the conversation.  I think it was pretty effective.  Sorry for not remembering this sooner, pearlsw's thoughts were what prompted me to think about it now.

formflier's advice is important to.  When you can do it without cramping your parenting, try to avoid triggering your wife.  If it were me, I'd be OK having my kid wipe his own bottom, and with him sitting beside me instead of in my lap.  But lying on my bed while I'm under the covers and he's on top, just lounging comfortably around?  That's a pretty damn healthy moment worth defending if you ask me.

Dragon72, let us know how you're doing. 

WW

[Dragon72]

I had a great time with my lawyer friend.  His bar makes incredible beer and serves delicious tacos.  If you're ever in Mexico City, I recommend it!

It started with us talking about my situation.  I told him how she had come back with our son after spending just over 24 hours at her brother's immediately following the accusation and carried on as if nothing had happened.  He assured me that I have nothing to worry about because a) I didn't do anything inappropriate and b) she has nothing to prove I did.  However, he did concede that some damage could be done in a public smear campaign, so we may consider advising my employers about the potential for wild public accusations.

He advised me on what to expect from a divorce settlement.  He has done many cases and quite a few of them high conflict involving PD types, although he advises against blowing the PD whistle as it is rarely understood in court.  He said that I would be looking at child support payments until our son is 18, and possible longer if he goes to college.  I'm more than happy to make sure he gets what he needs, and then some. As for her, I would be looking at having to pay her money for the same amount of time into the future as we have been married (we're at 5 and a half years at the moment).  In all likelihood, she would get majority custody.  He said that, all told, I would be looking at having to hand over between 30-50% of my salary for the next 6 years or so (child and wife support combined).  He said that if my wife were working, I would not have to be paying her nearly so much, so he encouraged me to try to get her to work.  Hell will freeze over first, alas.

The rest of the time we talked about beer and sports and food and our sons.  Guy stuff.  It was great to spend time with a "normal" adult!
My wife still hasn't made the connection between him being a lawyer and our meeting. I don't think she will.

Since then, I have done, as suggested, as little as possible to do anything that might be misinterpreted by Mrs. Dragon72, while still trying to maintain a close and strong bond with el niño.  (It has felt an awful lot like "walking on eggeshells", I must say... .)  She hasn't let him out of her sight for a moment and if I go out to play soccer with him in the garden, she's out there too.  He comes into a room where I am, she follows him like a bad smell. 

A couple of days ago, I sat down with a book and she said, "Jr. and I are going out for a walk," clearly not inviting me to come along, "we won't be long."  There's nowhere to go for a walk in our neighborhood, except to the convenience store 2 minutes away.  They came back 2 and a half hours later. 
"Where have you been?" I asked. The subject was changed.

Then, yesterday afternoon, just as I was planning to play soccer with Jr. out in the garden, she said "I'm taking Jr. to drop off something at his cousin's house (half a mile away). We won't be long."
"OK", I replied.

An hour later, just she came back and said that she was just home to collect some things as she and Jr. would be having a 2-night sleepover at her brother's house.
"Hey," I protested, "You can't just keep taking my son away like that without at least discussing it with me!"
"Oh come on!" she replied, "He's on vacation and he's having a great time with his cousin". 
Presented like a fait accompli.

So I'm home alone, feeling a little deserted by my dysfunctional family.

[Dragon72]

So that's my latest sitrep.

I'm feeling certain that I should get away from this toxic woman who mistrusts me on so many levels.
However, I am scared because I know that dropping the ":)" bomb, will just launch a barrage of smear that could seriously affect my career and the stress would be unbearable. 

I am already concerned about what she will be training our son to think about me.  I have recently been having to enforce boundaries when he misbehaves and he gets angry with me and can see that he prefers his ultra-permissive mother who still (literally) spoon-feeds him as he runs around the living room at mealtimes.  So it would be easy for her to win him over with lies about me and turn him against me.

It's a lose-lose situation for me.

[Enabler]

Hey man, keep going, you’re doing okay!

You need to read this and change the way you discipline. You cannot afford to be the bad guy anymore. It works very nicely although you have to learn when to let going of your ‘hold’ so they can reflect, this often spells the end of the bad behaviour (extinction burst of you must).

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

Great you not only met with a lawyer but met with a friend and had some normal time. Keep doing that, more regularly.

[formflier]

OK... perhaps you should open up a discussion on the divorce board for those details.

Until then, you need to email your buddy back a few questions.

1.  Can you force the court to "impute" income based on what your wife is refusing to do, rent things... sell things.

2.  If you can have testimony from professionals that your wife is going against their advice about child raising... .will that help?  

3.  Is there a downside to trying to bring up a PD and having the court "not get it".  What are the chances a court would force evaluations?



The above is stuff you need to know.

Now that you know this.  Are your ATM days over?    You understand why your wife doesn't work and doesn't get other sources of income... right?  Why do you think that is?

FF