I turned off my phone for a couple hours to avoid the texts

[formflier]

It's been a long time since I've done that.

Basically... .a bunch of blather of her justifying herself or trying to apologize or ask forgiveness via text for telling me that none of our conversations on our trip were about anything that mattered and I was avoiding being intimate with her.

The actual conversation that we did have was about how I was processing my grief over my Father's death.

It was a wonderful trip... .a very intimate conversation about my grief and how things were going.  I haven't a clue what set my wife off.  After we got home she told me that we were in the car for 2 hours and nothing we talked about mattered... all I wanted to do is talk about rainbows.

She re-emphasized that NOTHING we talked about mattered.

I didn't yell or holler.  I stayed calmed and asked her if my Father's death mattered or my grief mattered.

She denied talking about that or saying that.

Later... she acknowledged (via text) that we did talk about my Father's death but that I was being selfish in not talking about the things she wanted to talk about.  (she brought up the subject about my Father... and all the other things she brought up... we talked about... again... I couldn't have asked for a more pleasant... satisfying car ride)

Then later in texting she tried to apologize and ask forgiveness via text... .I let her know that I would be home soon and available to talk in person, that I would accept either apology or a request for forgiveness via text.

More blather came in... .I shut off my phone.  Went and had dinner... read the paper.  Turned on the phone before I came home... .more random blather... .I likely would have responded had I had my phone on.

It would appear she plans on going to sleep with the little girls tonight.

Here is the thing.  I know she is not capable of that level of intimacy.  I should have refused the conversation.   

Perhaps I'll feel differently after a good nights sleep... who knows.

How someone can say such horrible things... .and then complain about no emotional intimacy... .

Again... .I hope I feel differently in the morning... .to me... .this feels like a fundamental line has been crossed. 
Whatever her intentions... or lack of intentions about my grief... .

FF

[Ltahoe]

Idk I always feel if it’s not all about them, then they’re lost or not interested. Your expression and emotions for another person and about the loss probably somehow felt like a threat to her. My wife seems to get irritable sometimes if she thinks I’m too focused on others(kids) than her. Only thing is when she starts acting like that she’s prone to get even less attention and the kids more. Go figure.

[Circle]

That sounds really cruel on her part.
What's awesome though, is how well you handled it.
Way to stay in control.
-C

[Notwendy]

I don't want to discourage you from trying to have these intimate type conversations with your wife - but if she is not able to emotionally handle them - I hope that you can change your expectations of her reaction. Consider this: if she isn't able to handle her own emotions- and she has poor boundaries- she also may not be able to respond to you in a comforting manner when you are feeling a tough emotion like grief.

It really depends on the person's capacity for managing feelings- and BPD is a spectrum. What I have observed is that pwBPD are better at showing empathy for people who are not their intimate relationships. I think it has to do with boundaries. If you are in discomfort, she feels it and may dysregulate. If someone not as close to her is- she can see that it is their emotions, not hers and so can handle it better.

A term I have heard in my 12 step groups is " don't go to the empty well to drink". This doesn't mean you don't have these discussions with your wife- but don't expect to be comforted if she isn't able to do this in the presence of your own discomfort.  Surely she sees you sad and feels sad for you but may not recognize this as empathy, not her own bad feelings-  that could send her into victim mode " see you made me sad".

I can relate to your grief- losing my father was difficult. My H was supportive in his own way,but he does not handle it well when I demonstrated "negative" emotions around him. He reacts in a way one would not expect- he either gets angry, or tries to stop the feeling by negating it when what I really wish for is a hug and some empathy. Yet, he is better able to do this with someone else not as close to him. When I ask him what he is thinking later, he says " It upsets me to see you feel sad or upset". Well- that may be how he deals with his own uncomfortable feelings.

With my mother- who is at the severe end of the spectrum, it is like a boomerang. If I say to her " I am sad that my father died"  her response is a cold " I am sad that MY HUSBAND died". It seems her focus is only on her own pain. Honestly, I think with her, she is so overwhelmed by her own emotions, there isn't room for her to be of help to anyone else.

Same as most of us if we are in HALT. Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. We are focused on ourselves- we are in need. We can't be emotionally present for someone else at this time. If you are grieving you are in HALT. You can and should still tell your wife what is going on with you, but if you have the need for emotional support it may be better to do that with your counselor. What I've learned to do if I want this is to talk to a counselor, or my 12 step group, sponsor for support for my feelings.

[formflier]

Notwendy

I know you are right.


My wife woke me up a couple times last night, but nothing was really said.

She woke me up this morning a bit early asking if we could talk and then she could make breakfast.

I said not now, that I was tired from lack of sleep and didn't feel well.  I couldn't imagine a talk under those conditions helping our relationship.

She left the room... .remarkably calmly.  There is loud music and  banging in the kitchen.  It's doubtful I'm getting any more rest this morning.  

Notwendy

Does your husband complain about lack of talking about your feelings?  Lack of emotional intimacy?

What do you think you would say if he asked/demanded a conversation about your feelings... let's say your feelings about your Father's death or some other topic that is obviously really important to you?

FF

[Notwendy]

That's an interesting question FF, because it is my H who is not a talker. This could be a Venus/Mars thing ( if you read the book, it discusses how men and women see talking differently) and also in his FOO nobody talks about feelings. Their idea is - if you don't discuss them, they don't exist. They "talk"- about the weather, what is on TV but nothing deeper than that.


So if I wanted my H to "talk " to me, his reply was " we do talk, we talk all the time" meaning we talked about the weather, the kids, politics, whatever but not anything deeper. I tried many times to go deeper and it was a monologue- I would talk and it seemed he would endure it- or even look as if it was painful. He may reply a few single words, then look at his watch and say " we've been talking for 40 minutes" as if he paid his dues for talking for now.

I just stopped. The idea of "don't go to the empty well to drink" resonated with me. He's an intelligent man and surely can talk, so I assumed he was not talking to me on purpose. I now have decided that someone needs to learn how to do this, and he didn't learn as a child, and at this point doesn't want to.

I also found a great book called "How To Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It" which helped me with other means to relate to him.

Ironically, my H says he does miss connection and intimacy. Talking ( deeper topics) is my way of connecting with people and it is a major love language for me. I stay faithful to my marriage but if I wanted to discuss something as emotionally difficult as grief, I do that with a counselor or 12 step counselor. I would say that I wish this was a part of my marriage but after trying many times for years to get this and failing, I felt I had to let go of this.

If my H actually asked me to talk, I'd be pleasantly surprised but I think he's both relieved and sad that I don't. Yes, he notices.

Demand is another thing. We can't demand someone talk to us. But there is some truth to the Venus/Mars book- for women, talking is an intimacy connector- she feels she needs that while men prefer a different kind of intimacy connection. ( you know what that is).  Women like that too, but they want to be talked to. It isn't that men don't have feelings and don't want to talk, but they tend to see talking as a way to solve a problem and women see it as a way to connect. ( according to the book which I tend to agree with ).

She may want you to discuss your feelings, even if they trigger her. Maybe there is a way to do some of this without being reactive to her response.

I also wonder if my need for having a "heart to heart" discussion diminished when I worked on co-dependency. I think the 12 step groups have met that need for me in ways.

[formflier]

Notwendy,


Thanks for sharing... .I hope I can pester you with a few more questions.

"At the start", did you guys have heart to heart conversations?  If so, did they slowly die off over time?

Did they ever come back for a while?


FF

[formflier]

So... .I went for a long walk this morning doing exercises that my P has trained me to do, where I walk and breathe in a certain rhythm.

I feel somewhat better.

So... .second night in a row my wife woke me up with noise.  1st night she tried to apologize, last night... I have no idea if it was intentional or careless on her part... I don't recall anything in particular she said.

This morning she wanted to talk, as I posted earlier... I said I couldn't and was in no shape to do so.

She came back later with food.  I said thank you.

I took my plate out sometime later and realized that she had put a hot plate to cook on next to a barstool I had placed a nicer shirt of mine on to dry (under a ceiling fan).

Bacon grease had splattered all over it.  So I sprayed it and was preparing to put it back in the wash when she started yammering at me about it being her turn to do the wash... she would care for laundry.  

I said "Please allow me to wash my shirt, it has fresh grease on it." (no blame)

She kinda approached me the laundry room, still yammering about her turn, so I left the room.

I decided to chill in the bedroom for a while.  She comes in with her phone up... .either recording or pretending to record and starts announcing her apology for... .well... I have no idea what she was apologizing for.

I asked her to relent... .I wasn't able to have these conversations after not sleeping well, she got louder, I plugged my ears and left the room, she started following me around the house with her phone out, I got dressed (put on shirt and shoes) and left.

I'm much better after the walk.  I've elected to stay home from church and attempt to relax and be thoughtful about things.


FF

 

[Cat Familiar]

For a moment in the car, you felt genuine connection and concern from your wife about grieving your father's death. Then those feelings of intimacy and thoughts that she really cared about your process were completely dashed when she said that nothing about that conversation mattered.

After recently complaining about a lack of intimacy in her relationship with you, you thought you were experiencing genuine emotional intimacy when she opened that discussion. Then it was all shattered by her comment.

So sorry, FF.

[Cat Familiar]

"At the start", did you guys have heart to heart conversations?  If so, did they slowly die off over time?

Did they ever come back for a while?

I tried many times to go deeper and it was a monologue- I would talk and it seemed he would endure it- or even look as if it was painful. He may reply a few single words, then look at his watch and say " we've been talking for 40 minutes" as if he paid his dues for talking for now.

Notwendy and I have often shared notes about how our husbands seem to respond from the same playbook, nearly word for word. The painful look   I've seen that so many times.

To answer your question, FF, yes, at the beginning we had wonderful heart to heart conversations. Occasionally we might have one now and then, but it is very rare. Lots of times I feel he doesn't look at me, he looks past me. It's weird. I feel almost like a cardboard cutout.

This reminds me of a phrase my first husband, the husband from hell (HFH) would frequently say: "I'm not a prop in your drama."

I had no clue as to what that meant at the time, but now I'm thinking it's an interesting insight into BPD. He was thinking that I was using him as some sort of object to play a role in some melodrama that I was creating.

How this relates to your situation, FF, is possibly that your wife briefly showed you some understanding and compassion for your feelings of grief and perhaps felt: "OK, done. He should snap out of that." Not realizing that grief comes in waves and it's something we have to sit with for a while to process, rinse and repeat over and over and over.

Perhaps in her mind, she thought the conversation should then center on her concerns, now that yours were checked off the list.

[Notwendy]

I think we can all look back at the beginning of our relationships as easier times in a way. Although it seems that way - I realize that I brought a lot of my own issues from my FOO with me that felt “normal” at the time - a lot of codependent behavior. The communication issues were always there. I’d bring them up, he’d blame me, I believed him and tried to fix the problem. I didn’t see this pattern as abnormal - I grew up with it. Also he has none of the overt red flag behaviors my mother has and I didn’t recognize subtle dysfunction.

Like your relationship at first- these things seemed minor . I think you recalled flooding and water damage as when your marriage got rough. For us it was him starting a new job and we started a family. I think it was my strong emotional caretaking qualities that attracted him to me and some of these got diverted to raising children and he assumed I was deliberately withholding it from him and the devaluation started I walked on eggshells and continued to be codependent but I began to resent doing this for a grown adult but I felt I had to do it to keep the peace.

The issues for both of us were always there but different circumstances made them more obvious. My H may want the “former “ me- but that former me was codependent and enabling. Maybe that felt good for him but it wasn’t good for either of us for me to be that way.

[formflier]

Like your relationship at first- these things seemed minor . I think you recalled flooding and water damage as when your marriage got rough. 

Yep... .we were forced off the farm for about half a year. 

Certainly there was conflict before then... .but it was "remarkable" that there was conflict and when it came up, it would be solved and it would stay solved.

I struggle to remember any example of a conflict that "came back" or would be "kitchen sinked" when another conflict came up

After the flood... .it was remarkable that something "stayed solved" for a period of weeks or months.

FF

[formflier]

For a moment in the car, you felt genuine connection and concern from your wife about grieving your father's death. Then those feelings of intimacy and thoughts that she really cared about your process were completely dashed when she said that nothing about that conversation mattered.

After recently complaining about a lack of intimacy in her relationship with you, you thought you were experiencing genuine emotional intimacy when she opened that discussion. Then it was all shattered by her comment.

So sorry, FF.

Thanks Cat... .that's exactly how I see it.

You guys know me... .I'm always looking for a solution or did I do the boundary correctly... .

Very much like last fall... .when I knew that our financial ties were severed (quick version... after the hit me with ATM card)... .

Well... .I'm sitting here drinking coffee... .remarkably calm (the walk, breathe, rhythm thing is amazing).  I can't imagine it ever being a good idea to be "emotionally vulnerable" to my wife again.

I'm hoping you guys can help me with the words... or what I call it... .

She shows "just enough" hope here and there that I get "sucked in" (I doubt she "plots" this)... .and I can find examples of emotional support that didn't get sabotaged.  I actually can... .but they are "remarkable".

Hard to warp my head around... .I'm totally open to suggestions.

What do I say when she brings up emotional topics again?

FF

[Notwendy]

Maybe trade the idea of emotionally vulnerable to being emotionally secure and authentic. The more I am OK with me- as I am, the less someone else's comments bother me or ruin the moment. When someone says something about me to me, I put it through my filter ( boundary )of who I know I am. If it is true and it bothers me, then I say " that is interesting, I need to think about that" if it is hurtful and not true, then it becomes a pink elephant.

Someone wants to know what I think ? Well, I can tell them, if it is appropriate to do so. I think some things we don't need to share. I have to be able to radically accept that the response may not be what I hoped for. But someone can't ruin our feelings if we don't allow it to.

Also with your wife, feelings may be facts. You could have an intimate talk and the next day she is feeling  as if she doesn't have it. The parallel to us is sex. My H says we NEVER have sex. It could be two days ago and he says that. It isn't a fact but in the moment, if it feels like it, well that's what he says. That also becomes a self fulfilling prophesy as it is doesn't make you want to feel intimate when someone says that to you, and I have felt very hurt by the fact that he doesn't seem to recall the intimate times. But it also isn't true and it doesn't help if I react negatively to that.

Yes, Cat, I think with both our H's- they are well educated and good at their careers. I think this got them a lot of reinforcement for that. It is a good blessing, but I also think it can take the place of developing communication skills. Successful men tend to attract potential mates and are socially admired. For my mother, she was very beautiful and popular,  and I think people excuse other behaviors when someone is attractive. She was able to present herself well socially and people were naturally attracted to her. In her era, survival and success for women was to find a good husband. I think BPD exists on a spectrum and that also, pwBPD can have many positive traits and attractive qualities.

[formflier]

Notwendy,

More questions... thanks for helping.

So... .when you husband says you NEVER have sex.  How do you react/speak now?


I just had a quick phone call with P... she has given me some pointers and "mindset" changes that may calm things.  I'm still trying to process those.

Focus on what I can do to turn down the temperature now... .solve tomorrow stuff later.

P believes my wife "didn't feel heard" at work... .(after discussing some of the events of the ride home)... .and that somehow there was something she really wanted to discuss, but I missed.

That when she was saying that "NOTHING" we talked about mattered... that she was talking about how she felt about herself.

Sigh...

FF

[Notwendy]

I think your P is correct and when your wife didn’t feel heard she went into black and white thinking “nothing “ similarly to “never”.


Recently we had this discussion and I just started to cry. He said “ I don’t think you care” and I just said it all - I heard this   when we were younger and now with menopause changes if I’m not enough for you then I can’t do any more than what we are doing now and I’m trying my best.

The difference is that I believe what I said. The complaint is not true.  I’m a good wife, I’ve stayed in good shape physically but I can not turn into a 20 year old. That’s all I can do. I actually think he heard it .

Ironically when he isn’t in the moment of feeling “never “ he says he’s happy with things as they are. He’s not 20 either.

FF- we can do better but ultimately we probably can’t be perfect . There will probably be the “never” and the “nothing “ but I think these words are said in the moment and we remember them longer than they do.

[formflier]

  I actually think he heard it .

 

I know exactly what you mean by this.  It's a rare thing.  When my wife "hears"... .she will be contemplative for a while

FF

[Cat Familiar]

She shows "just enough" hope here and there that I get "sucked in" (I doubt she "plots" this)... .and I can find examples of emotional support that didn't get sabotaged.  I actually can... .but they are "remarkable".

I admire your consistency with boundaries, FF. Yeah, I don't think she plots it either and I know exactly what you mean about getting sucked in over and over.

Though it doesn't feel like the kind of intimacy I would have had with an emotionally healthy partner, I keep my husband on "a need to know basis" and then only slowly parse out anything extra, monitoring his state from moment to moment. Sort of like not wading out too deep in the ocean before I know how the currents will impact me.

[Fian]

Reading this I had a couple of thoughts.

1.  Did you talk about your father for the entire 2 hours?  My guess is it was a short portion of the conversation, and her feeling of the overall 2 hours was that she was feeling a certain way.  So she exaggerates (a common technique, not just BPD), which you took to mean she was talking about your father when she had probably forgotten about it.

2.  She has made an attempt to have a conversation with you, but the time didn't work for you.  The ball is now in your court to schedule a conversation with her.  She is probably feeling that your insistence on a conversation not text, is a way to just avoid the conversation entirely.

[formflier]

My best guess is about 30 minutes talk about my grief and how all of that is going. 

During my talk with P she questioned me pretty good and the biggest mistake she could find was that when (earlier in ride) my wife was complaining about something at work, I asked if she wanted some ideas to solve it, she said yes... so I gave her some ideas.

P says that I should have said "Boy FFw... ., I haven't a clue what to suggest you do about this, but that has to hurt to be ignored and made to feel like you don't matter."

She said I was too much in my head and not enough in my heart... .or "her heart".

Of course... .no idea if that was "it".  My wife was frustrated with how an email chain was going about a bulletin board that was getting set up.

Her comments were odd to me because she said something along the lines of "all you want to do is talk about rainbows"... .and there was a particularly striking rainbow that we happened upon, during the last part of the conversation about my grief. 


FF

[Notwendy]

FF- have you read the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus?  I think it is a good explanation of some of the cultural differences between how men and women perceive "talking". I am not one to stereotype but I think the explanation helped for me to see how my H and I perceived it differently.

One of the premises is the reasoning for talking is different. Women tend to talk to connect and feel connected, and men tend to talk to problem solve. So when a women starts to connection talk to her intimate partner, he assumes it's a need to solve the problem and he responds with begins to offer solutions. The woman then doesn't feel heard or connected. Your P was right on when she suggested you reply with a validation of the feelings first, rather than start with coming up with a solution.

Sometimes the reason for the woman talking isn't only to solve the issue and may not be about solving the issue at all but to connect by sharing the feeling. "I had a hard day at work" may not need a solution- it may even be solved already, but to simply bond by letting you know what is going on. In return, your wife may also want a similar connection with you- want to know what you are feeling but may not be always able to handle it emotionally.

I think both men and women talk for both reasons. The book was about cultural tendencies but I think it helped.

[formflier]

So... this latest "bump" is over... .

P pushed me pretty hard to try to connect with my wife and generally say I was sorry for "missing the boat" that she wanted to feel heard and connect at a "heart level"... not at "head level".

So... .I did that.  Frankly... .I really didn't want to... .but it relaxed things immediately.

My wife was very thankful for the trip and the effort I put into it.

I've never read the book... .ordering it now.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Women tend to talk to connect and feel connected, and men tend to talk to problem solve. So when a women starts to connection talk to her intimate partner, he assumes it's a need to solve the problem and he responds with begins to offer solutions. The woman then doesn't feel heard or connected. Your P was right on when she suggested you reply with a validation of the feelings first, rather than start with coming up with a solution.

I've certainly been in your shoes, FF, wondering what the heck has happened with the conversation.

Because I'm so pragmatic and logical, I've missed the boat too when people have needed emotional support.

Once I was having lunch at a restaurant with a friend who is a counselor. She's had a series of disappointing online relationships with inappropriate men. So she starts telling me her latest heartbreak, then began sobbing. I was clueless how to help her, so I went into my problem solving modality. She soon stopped me short and accused me of being an Aspie because I was completely ignoring her feelings.

Afterwards I learned more about how Asperger's presents in women and I do think she was right--that I am on the spectrum. It really explains my enthusiasm for talking about design and function with engineers and builders and why I'm uncomfortable with overt displays of emotions.

That aside, I also have had similar experiences with my husband. When he has wanted emotional support, I've tried to give him strategy. I'm learning to catch myself when I go there and I'm no longer so oblivious to other people's emotional needs. But logic, strategy, options, solutions--that's my default mode.

[Enabler]

FF,

Not to add another idea in the mix but often I find with W that she has a weird perception of fair... .all things must be fair, in fact all things must be slightly unfair, as though the banquette table is slightly tipped down towards her. If I talk to her about X, she must have a conversation about 2X... .a bit Billy 2 sh!ts... .if you've had 1 he's had 2. You spent a long time talking about you, she felt like she was giving a bit too much and giving is not something that makes her feel massively safe. e.g. I would talk about my grief when my father passed in 2015, I figured I was allowed that... .nope, "I'm grieving as well". I wasn't allowed to 'take' for too long, as that was unfair.

You felt connected, she felt like she was giving.

[Enabler]

Actually giving... .it feels like taking from her

[Notwendy]

Same here Enabler. Things have to be uneven and in his favor for my H to feel things are “fair” between us. He doesn’t seem to enjoy giving to me - materially or emotionally- in the sense of getting any joy from giving and seeing someone happy. Gratuitous giving to him feels like he’s being taken advantage of.

The other day he opened something I bought from a box and then decided he wanted to send it back so he came to get me to pack up the box. It was as if he’d already done his part and so I had to do mine. Sometimes he insists I help him take out the trash. I can do it alone but if he’s doing it - I have to help somehow.

House and kids are my job. If I ask for help once in a while he argues that it isn’t fair because he has his job and it would be doing two jobs if he helped.

I don’t begin to get it. As to talking intimately - ( back to the thread) I don’t go there much. It’s a lot of effort on my part and just leaves him agitated. If I want to “talk” I go to a 12 step group for relationship discussions and if it’s something else - I have a close female friend to talk to.

[Notwendy]

The “unfairness “ is sadly an intimacy downer. It’s juvenile. It also leads to my feeling contempt which isn’t good for a marriage. I wish I understood it. Like one little thing to them to do is worth hurting the marriage over. As much as I want to say “take the trash out yourself” I get the sense that in this moment he’s about to explode and doing something myself or helping is better than the drama if I don’t.

[Enabler]

It leads to ‘catching flees’, tit for tat nitpicking and the desire to beat them at their own “fairness” agenda. Well it does in Enabler towers... .at least it used to. A friend said to me, “get rid of the slate, it’s killing your relationship”.

[Notwendy]

No slate on my side. I don’t understand this kind of thinking. Keeping track would lead nowhere but I’d be curious to know where this thinking comes from.

[Enabler]

Years and years and years and years and years of someone telling you you’re a lazy good for nothing husband... .when you’re anything but and know it. It builds a shocking amount of contempt.