3 'strikes' for BPD: My uBPDw says I have a PD, others disagree.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I wanted to post this separate as it is a bit different from my last post.  I had a session with my therapist yesterday and I provided her with the first post that I posted here prior to our session.  We have discussed issues over the past few months but I wanted to get her everything in writing as it is probably easier to digest and keep track of.  Prior to our session, I also spoke with her on the phone to ask her about the concern my uBPDw expressed about me having a PD.  She stated on the phone that she had seen no sign of any PD and if she had that she would have definitely mentioned it to me and be recommending other treatment.  I asked her if she thought it was probable that my wife was projecting that onto me.  She responded that it was very likely.  :)uring our session, she told me that she spoke with my Dr. (they work in the same building and communicate regularly) to see if she had noticed any signs of PD during any of her visits with me and let her know about my wife's concern.  Her immediate response (due to previous interactions with my wife I am assuming) was that she was most likely projecting onto me.  :)uring our session, the therapist stated basically the same thing, clarifying that she could not diagnose her as she had never met her.  That makes perfect sense to me and sounds responsible.  Finally, I was speaking with our pastor today.  We have had several counseling sessions with him and have attended the church for about 2 years, so he is rather familiar with us and most of our issues.  He informed me that she had been making the trip that she went on with the youth group this past week very difficult for the youth pastor and the youth pastor's wife.  I had let the youth pastor know prior to them leaving that I had concerns about her going and being overbearing etc.  I informed the pastor about what my wife had expressed about being concerned about me having a PD and what the Dr. and therapist had said.  His response shocked me in a way.  He said, "I have one word for you, dido".  So now I have three professionals, one of which has had many personal interactions with my wife as well as two others, one of which has had a few interactions all say the same thing.  This feels validating and relieving in a way but at he same time I have what I would classify as a fear.  I am somehow manipulating these people to believe these things?  My wife tells me that I can talk my way out of anything.  I will admit that I am good at talking but I don't feel like I am misrepresenting anything.  

[Woodchuck]

I wanted to post this separate as it is a bit different from my last post.  I had a session with my therapist yesterday and I provided her with the first post that I posted here prior to our session.  We have discussed issues over the past few months but I wanted to get her everything in writing as it is probably easier to digest and keep track of.  Prior to our session, I also spoke with her on the phone to ask her about the concern my uBPDw expressed about me having a PD.  She stated on the phone that she had seen no sign of any PD and if she had that she would have definitely mentioned it to me and be recommending other treatment.  I asked her if she thought it was probable that my wife was projecting that onto me.  She responded that it was very likely.  :)uring our session, she told me that she spoke with my Dr. (they work in the same building and communicate regularly) to see if she had noticed any signs of PD during any of her visits with me and let her know about my wife's concern.  Her immediate response (due to previous interactions with my wife I am assuming) was that she was most likely projecting onto me.  :)uring our session, the therapist stated basically the same thing, clarifying that she could not diagnose her as she had never met her.  That makes perfect sense to me and sounds responsible.  Finally, I was speaking with our pastor today.  We have had several counseling sessions with him and have attended the church for about 2 years, so he is rather familiar with us and most of our issues.  He informed me that she had been making the trip that she went on with the youth group this past week very difficult for the youth pastor and the youth pastor's wife.  I had let the youth pastor know prior to them leaving that I had concerns about her going and being overbearing etc.  I informed the pastor about what my wife had expressed about being concerned about me having a PD and what the Dr. and therapist had said.  His response shocked me in a way.  He said, "I have one word for you, dido".  So now I have three professionals, one of which has had many personal interactions with my wife as well as two others, one of which has had a few interactions all say the same thing.  This feels validating and relieving in a way but at he same time I have what I would classify as a fear.  I am somehow manipulating these people to believe these things?  My wife tells me that I can talk my way out of anything.  I will admit that I am good at talking but I don't feel like I am misrepresenting anything.  

[Notwendy]

Woodchuck- From your posts, it seems you have difficulty believing your own perceptions. This is a boundary issue and it also comes from living with someone who is defining you for a long time. I can relate to this as my BPD mother projects on to me and also "defines" me according to her own thoughts and ideas. My H also "defines" me according to his feelings. So, for instance, if I react in a certain way, he decides what that means. One example is if I am busy or preoccupied, he decides I am "rejecting" him and gets angry. It isn't unusual for people to misinterpret other people- we are not mind readers, but in this case, we can reality check with them "what's going on?" " oh I was just worried about a project at work", or"the baby has a fever" rather than decide they know what you are thinking.

Author Patricia Evans included "defining someone else's reality" in her list of verbal abuse.

It is very hard to hold on to your own reality when someone is constantly speaking to you, telling you who you are , what you are thinking, and it requires strong boundaries. A boundary includes knowing what is true about you and what is not. If someone says something to you about you, you filter it- is this true? Is this not true?

A good exercise is the "pink elephant" idea. If your wife tried to convince you that you were a pink elephant, would you begin to doubt yourself? Would you be looking for scales and a trunk in the mirror? Would you worry you might be a pink elephant? I hope not- because I think you can be quite certain that you are not one, and even if she is convinced you are one, that doesn't make it one.

It is OK to check with others. I think a T is a great reality checker. So, a professional T has told you that you don't have signs of a PD and she has checked with another professional. I think that's probably a good indicator that your wife isn't correct when she says you have one. Her saying this doesn't make it true.

She's a nurse and I have great respect for nurses but she can not use this diagnosis with you without a formal evaluation and because you are a family member. I believe most of them do know what is going on with a patient- even if the patient has not been formally diagnosed, but as professionals, they will consult who they need to arrive at the diagnosis before they would discuss that with the patient. As professionals they also know not to diagnose their family members and they know that medical information and mental health counseling is confidential to the patient.

I think you can put this to rest with her by replying "thank you for your concern, I am under the care of a mental health professional and I will pursue your idea with her" if she pushes for more " You are a good nurse and I know you know not to diagnose or treat family members, so I assure you I have brought up all your concerns with my T . She does not believe I have a PD but beyond that, I would like to keep my sessions with her confidential"

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck- From your posts, it seems you have difficulty believing your own perceptions. This is a boundary issue and it also comes from living with someone who is defining you for a long time. I can relate to this as my BPD mother projects on to me and also "defines" me according to her own thoughts and ideas. My H also "defines" me according to his feelings. So, for instance, if I react in a certain way, he decides what that means. One example is if I am busy or preoccupied, he decides I am "rejecting" him and gets angry. It isn't unusual for people to misinterpret other people- we are not mind readers, but in this case, we can reality check with them "what's going on?" " oh I was just worried about a project at work", or"the baby has a fever" rather than decide they know what you are thinking.

Author Patricia Evans included "defining someone else's reality" in her list of verbal abuse.

It is very hard to hold on to your own reality when someone is constantly speaking to you, telling you who you are , what you are thinking, and it requires strong boundaries. A boundary includes knowing what is true about you and what is not. If someone says something to you about you, you filter it- is this true? Is this not true?

A good exercise is the "pink elephant" idea. If your wife tried to convince you that you were a pink elephant, would you begin to doubt yourself? Would you be looking for scales and a trunk in the mirror? Would you worry you might be a pink elephant? I hope not- because I think you can be quite certain that you are not one, and even if she is convinced you are one, that doesn't make it one.

It is OK to check with others. I think a T is a great reality checker. So, a professional T has told you that you don't have signs of a PD and she has checked with another professional. I think that's probably a good indicator that your wife isn't correct when she says you have one. Her saying this doesn't make it true.

She's a nurse and I have great respect for nurses but she can not use this diagnosis with you without a formal evaluation and because you are a family member. I believe most of them do know what is going on with a patient- even if the patient has not been formally diagnosed, but as professionals, they will consult who they need to arrive at the diagnosis before they would discuss that with the patient. As professionals they also know not to diagnose their family members and they know that medical information and mental health counseling is confidential to the patient.

I think you can put this to rest with her by replying "thank you for your concern, I am under the care of a mental health professional and I will pursue your idea with her" if she pushes for more " You are a good nurse and I know you know not to diagnose or treat family members, so I assure you I have brought up all your concerns with my T . She does not believe I have a PD but beyond that, I would like to keep my sessions with her confidential"

Notwendy -
I think you are spot on about it being a boundary issue as well as allowing her to define me.  We have been together for 18 years, so it has been going along for quite some time.  I can appreciate the pink elephant analogy and it works with things that are clear cut but, at least for me, it is much more difficult when things that are presented tend to have at least a hint of truth to them.  For example, when she tells me that she thinks I might have a PD and I look through the list of symptoms and can relate to a few of them in one way or another, that add an element of 'validity' to her statement.  It is probably me overthinking things and that is probably due to years of living in this type of environment.
As far as diagnosing, she made it very clear that she was not qualified to diagnose but I believe that is really just a formality, not how she truly feels.  I appreciate your suggestions about how to respond.  I think those responses would be effective.  Do you think it would be beneficial in any way to have her go with me to meet with the T that I have been talking to so she can voice her concerns?

Woodchuck

[Cat Familiar]

If you read over lists of psychiatric symptoms, everyone would have some signs of a mental disorder. It's seeing clusters of symptoms in a repetitive manner that qualifies one for a diagnosis.

PwBPD are experts at projection. And those of us who are codependents/caretakers tend to be very willing to look at our foibles and consider whether there's truth in these accusations.

Almost by definition if you're willing to ask if you have a personality disorder, YOU DON'T!

As to whether or not you should bring your wife to your T session, I had a number of thoughts.

1. Your wife voices her concerns with your T. Then if your T doesn't verbally agree with her conclusions, she discredits your T.

2. Are you are trying to "prove" to your wife that you don't have a PD?

3. Your T gets to see your wife and be able to possibly see some of those patterns which would indicate that she has a PD.

4. Your individual session now turns into marriage counseling.

[Woodchuck]

If you read over lists of psychiatric symptoms, everyone would have some signs of a mental disorder. It's seeing clusters of symptoms in a repetitive manner that qualifies one for a diagnosis.

PwBPD are experts at projection. And those of us who are codependents/caretakers tend to be very willing to look at our foibles and consider whether there's truth in these accusations.

Almost by definition if you're willing to ask if you have a personality disorder, YOU DON'T!

As to whether or not you should bring your wife to your T session, I had a number of thoughts.

1. Your wife voices her concerns with your T. Then if your T doesn't verbally agree with her conclusions, she discredits your T.

2. Are you are trying to "prove" to your wife that you don't have a PD?

3. Your T gets to see your wife and be able to possibly see some of those patterns which would indicate that she has a PD.

4. Your individual session now turns into marriage counseling.

Cat -
As always, I appreciate your insight.  The reason I have given thought to having her join me during a session is multi-faceted.  She stated that she would like to voice her concerns to the T and I think that she can do that better than anyone else.  It will also give the T a better idea about what is going on and what I am dealing with, she won't have to just rely on my words.  I am not concerned about proving that I have/don't have a PD.  If I do, I would definitely want to get the help I need to deal with it.  I don't think it would be healthy to have more than one session and have it turn into marriage counseling as we have tried that in the past many times with many different counselors and all have ended because she did not like what they had to say.  I guess I really just think it would be beneficial for the T more than anyone to hear directly from her and see how she acts/communicates so she can help me develop a good plan on how to do deal with things.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

Woodchuck- the statements triggers us because they contain a kernel of truth to them. Our job is to not emotionally react in the moment and perpetuate the drama in the relationship. So, if they are partly true what does that mean? It means we deal with them later, in a positive way. The Pink Elephant exercise is to help us practice removing our emotions from the drama in the moment. They say if we are angry, count to 10 before replying. If an accusation is upsetting, think "Pink Elephant".

So your wife approaches you with a "you have a PD statement" - substitute Pink Elephant in your mind, and you will probably feel calmer in the moment and not continue the drama. A good reply to "you have a PD" is "that is interesting, I need to think about that".

The reality is that we choose partners who match us in some ways. They may have a disorder, but we also have something about us that attracted us to them and keeps us in the drama. That is our issues. We can't work on others but we can work on ourselves. If we do, we don't necessarily change them but we can change our responses to them and diminish the drama in a relationship. Many partners of pwBPD have co-dependent and enabling tendencies and actually, so do people with PD's. Just because there could be some similar traits doesn't mean we have a PD. If we have seen a therapist who confirms that we don't have one, I think we can feel pretty secure that accusations are not accurate.

Children raised in dyfunctional families can acquire dysfunctional behaviors that were necessary to survive in those families. The good news is that, if they are learned behaviors, with practice, they can be unlearned and substituted with new ones. One of my own fears was becoming like my BPD mother. Because I grew up with a BPD mother, I could not help but learn some behaviors from my parents. But that doesn't mean I have BPD and with counseling, I have been assured I do not. With some personal work, I have un- learned them.

[Cat Familiar]

Woodchuck,
You’ve got a good point about the benefit of having your wife attend a counseling session with you and air her complaints about you. That would be a great opportunity for your T to see your wife in action and give you strategies about how to keep the temperature down in your relationship. And since you’re doing individual therapy, not marital counseling, your counselor can see what you’re up against.

Your wife will probably have a far different idea of the intent of the session. She will likely think it’s an opportunity to expose what you’re not telling your therapist, and with that in mind, she will likely reveal a lot more about herself than she realizes. Good plan! 

Cat

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,
You’ve got a good point about the benefit of having your wife attend a counseling session with you and air her complaints about you. That would be a great opportunity for your T to see your wife in action and give you strategies about how to keep the temperature down in your relationship. And since you’re doing individual therapy, not marital counseling, your counselor can see what you’re up against.

Your wife will probably have a far different idea of the intent of the session. She will likely think it’s an opportunity to expose what you’re not telling your therapist, and with that in mind, she will likely reveal a lot more about herself than she realizes. Good plan! 

Cat

Cat-
Hopefully it will be beneficial.  She is of the mindset that I just badmouth and 'slander' her.  I believe that I try to be as objective and unbiased as possible but I also realize that it is not possible to communicate what someone else's perception or views are as well as the person can communicate it themselves.  I am sure that she can communicate things to the T in a way that I am not able to.  At the same time, as you said, it will give the T a real view of what is going on and hopefully help me figure out the best course of action.  I am not afraid of my wife revealing anything.  I have outlined ways that I have failed to the T.  In fact I shared the initial post that I posted here with the 'brief' history from the time we met until now, so she knows that I am not and do not view myself as being without fault or as a 'helpless' victim. 

Woodchuck

[Cat Familiar]

You might want to read BurntOutFromBPD's last post on this thread as a cautionary statement about preparing yourself emotionally for unkind words from your wife in the counseling session:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327175.0;all

Hopefully it won't be that bad, but it's good to be prepared. Whatever she says will give a fuller picture of the dynamic between the two of you and will certainly give your therapist some good material to work with.

It certainly speaks to your willingness to make changes that you are open to bringing your wife to your counseling session. 

[Woodchuck]

You might want to read BurntOutFromBPD's last post on this thread as a cautionary statement about preparing yourself emotionally for unkind words from your wife in the counseling session:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327175.0;all

Hopefully it won't be that bad, but it's good to be prepared. Whatever she says will give a fuller picture of the dynamic between the two of you and will certainly give your therapist some good material to work with.

It certainly speaks to your willingness to make changes that you are open to bringing your wife to your counseling session. 

Cat -
I went back and read the post that you provided the link for.  I had read it before but reading it again I picked up on more things.  Unfortunately, I have been in that exact position during counseling sessions in the past.  I fully expect her to explode with all the reasons that I am the problem and why I need to change and she can't do anything etc.  I am perfectly (ok maybe not perfectly) fine with it.  I guess I am at least prepared for it.  I had a conversation with my wife last night over text message.  I made a point not to JADE as that is something that I really struggle with.  It was not easy at times but it at least helped me stay calm by looking for things about her comments that I could validate.  I am sure it was not perfect, but I do feel like I made some good progress.  I will try to share that later on today in a new post so I can get some feedback on where I could improve etc. 
I am really willing to do just about anything that will bring about true peace and harmony.  I fully recognize that I am far from perfect and can focus on working on myself.  As BurntOutFromBPD stated though, it is exhausting and extremely difficult to not JADE when constantly assaulted with how horrible/worthless etc you are.  I think it helps to try to focus on the fact that they don't necessarily understand what they are doing or saying. 

Woodchuck