Her kids - my kids - what is this?

[Woodchuck]

My uBPDw has stated many times, as I have outlined in other posts, that she has provided free childcare for my kids over the several years.  Today, she told me that they were her kids and that she was going to do what is best for them and she didn't care what I thought or what anyone else thought.  Setting aside the last part of the most recent statement for a moment, how do you deal with something like this? 

The background on this is she went with the kids to a youth retreat last week.  She went with them because she wanted to make sure they were supervised 'appropriately'.  Prior to leaving on the trip, the youth pastor and his wife took us out to dinner to talk about the trip.  He requested that her and the kids come up with a hand signal to use if anyone felt like she was being too overbearing.  He explained that she would be going as a 'supervisor' for all the students, not just as the children's mother.  Her direct response to that was a very passionate, 'I am the children's mother!'.  She came home from the trip angry because of the hand signal that he requested even though, according to the children it was never used.  She claims that it was completely inappropriate and only used to usurp her parental authority.  She claims that they wanted the hand signal because they believe she is a bad/abusive parent.  She went on to say that the youth pastor is young and unwise and criticized the age difference between him and his wife, which is apparently about 10 years.  She refuses to explain exactly what happened on the trip, telling me that she believes that I just want to know so I can have a different opinion and that I do not support her at all.  I responded that I would really like to understand everything be treated as an equal, it would make it much easier to understand and support her.  She asked me if I would have a problem with having a hand signal if I was in her place.  I told her that I did not believe that I would but that was just how I felt and did not expect her to feel the same way.  She went on to tell me that she plans on attending every youth group meeting from now on to make sure that things are done properly.  Our son has been going to the youth group for over a year and has benefited greatly from it.  Our daughter just started going a month or so ago as she just reached the age limit to be able to go.  I have been the one to take them to the meeting every week as well as almost every other function and have been quite involved.  This is the first time that she has really had any involvement in the group and now wants to have control.  This is just another instance where it is either her way or no way.  I understand being a parent and having the ultimate say/authority/responsibility for your children but this just seems way out in left field.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

It seems in left field because it is and apparently the youth pastor thinks so too. She’s painting people black if they don’t go along with her or think something’s up. It’s actually good for you if others notice. I think BPD can hide when others dont see it.

You can’t change her thinking. I’d be inclined to step out of the way and let the pastor deal with her. Chances are she may decide to go to another church if things get difficult for her.

My very BPD mother prefers to be with people who don’t catch on to her, and she’s good at being charming and attractive. If people seem to catch on to her - she paints them black and moves on. My father collaborated in protecting her. Perhaps if it weren’t so hidden she may have gotten help- but she’d have to see it.

Protect the kids but don’t protect your wife from herself  . Let the pastor
deal with her behavior . Seems he’s doing that.

[Woodchuck]

It seems in left field because it is and apparently the youth pastor thinks so too. She’s painting people black if they don’t go along with her or think something’s up. It’s actually good for you if others notice. I think BPD can hide when others dont see it.

You can’t change her thinking. I’d be inclined to step out of the way and let the pastor deal with her. Chances are she may decide to go to another church if things get difficult for her.

My very BPD mother prefers to be with people who don’t catch on to her, and she’s good at being charming and attractive. If people seem to catch on to her - she paints them black and moves on. My father collaborated in protecting her. Perhaps if it weren’t so hidden she may have gotten help- but she’d have to see it.

Protect the kids but don’t protect your wife from herself  . Let the pastor
deal with her behavior . Seems he’s doing that.

Notwendy -
That is spot on.  We/she have lost so many friends due to her painting them black when they refuse to see things her way.  I agree that it is good if others notice and I think now that the kids are involved more outside the house, that is beginning to happen.  I know I cannot change her thinking, attempting to do anything other than agree only results in disaster.  I do want to step out of the way and let her show her true self.  That is why I did not put up a fight about her going with the children even though I had a strong suspicion about what would happen.  The part that has me 'conflicted' is the kids.  I expect that shortly she will not allow them to go to any of the group functions.  That will devastate them.  How am I supposed to protect them from that happening?  They will be the ones that end up suffering the most.

Woodchuck

[GaGrl]

This is similar to the pattern my DH experienced with his uNPD/BPD ex and their children. She never allowed them sleepovers at their friends' houses and was open about distrust. Any attempt at separation of independence from her was abandonment or betrayal.

Her idea of activities was entirely her preference, and unsuited especially to the daughter - for example, pressure to try out for cheerleading on a very, very shy and introverted girl who just wanted to be in marching band.

This is a development period for the children that the mother can really disrupt.

What direct conversation have you had with the youth pastor?

[Woodchuck]

This is similar to the pattern my DH experienced with his uNPD/BPD ex and their children. She never allowed them sleepovers at their friends' houses and was open about distrust. Any attempt at separation of independence from her was abandonment or betrayal.

Her idea of activities was entirely her preference, and unsuited especially to the daughter - for example, pressure to try out for cheerleading on a very, very shy and introverted girl who just wanted to be in marching band.

This is a development period for the children that the mother can really disrupt.

What direct conversation have you had with the youth pastor?

Gagrl -
The only direct conversation that I have had with him was prior to the trip, letting him know that I had concerns about her being overbearing on the trip.  I have not spoken with him since.  My uBPDw is also the same about sleepovers and any social involvement.  The other similar issue that is heartbreaking to me is that my daughter has wanted to take dancing classes and has voiced that over and over.  My wife has been quite dismissive of it.  Last year I started looking into taking her to classes myself.  It would mean very long days for me as I work 12 hours a day but I want to support my daughter's interests.  When I told my wife that I was looking at taking our daughter to a dance studio to check it out, she lost it and went off about how I was just trying to be the fun parent and showing her that she wasn't doing enough etc.  I dropped the idea as I did not want our daughter to bear the brunt of any negativity about it.  6 months later, my wife asked me to take them to the exact studio that I had been looking into so they could check it out.  I happily obliged.  She seemed interested once we were there but never ended up taking her back.  The only time that my daughter got to go was to use the free pass that she got when we visited the studio and I was the one to take her that day due to my wife's work schedule.  I may be looking at things in a less than good way but I don't know how to effectively protect and support the children while also not allowing my wife to steamroll everything.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

Woodchuck- the dynamics in a BPD family tend to follow the Karpman (drama) triangle which is a dysfunctional way of relating to others. Each member can take on a specific role ( victim, rescuer, persecutor)- and one person can take on any of the roles, even with themselves. Someone who feels like a victim can "rescue" themselves with a shopping spree ( "I deserve this as I feel so bad" or alcohol ( "I need a drink as I feel so bad) or some other behavior.

In my own observations, I think the pwBPD tends to take on victim role and their partner tends to take on the rescuer/enabling role.

It then gets complicated if the non partner steps in to rescue/protect a child ( or other person ) from the pwBPD.

When your wife paints others black - like the pastor- and then decides she is going to "protect" the children from him, she's actually protecting herself from the issues that may have come into the light. She's also projecting as well. She likely doesn't see herself as being a cause of the issues. She's in victim role with regards to the pastor, and taking "rescuer" role with the children- but she's really rescuing herself. If she decides to cut off the youth activities and you step in to rescue the children and let them go, then she sees you as the persecutor in this situation.

Parenting becomes a challenge with this kind of drama. I think it would help to post particular parenting situations on the parenting board- as the parents who have navigated this kind of situation would likely have some good advice to share.

My own opinion from being raised in this situation and also raising my own kids is to help them to reinforce their own boundaries, feelings, and sense of self.  Just as you feel your wife defining you can shake up your own sense of reality, this happens with the children too. As they get older, they will begin to sense that something isn't right with their mother. You want them to be able to recognize dysfunctional people, have good boundaries and be able to say "no" to unreasonable requests. Growing up, my family was invested in keeping my mother's issues secret and telling me she was normal when I observed behaviors that were not. I was not allowed to say no to her, or speak the truth to her, so I learned to fear saying no to people. I was taught to enable her and  became an enabler.

Children will look to you as a role model. I would say that the best thing you can do to protect your children is to work on yourself- on your own boundaries, your own enabling tendencies, and your ability to be your authentic self. The dance lesson example is just one thing but the family dynamics affect all aspects of life as a child in a dysfunctional family. One example I show my children is that it is OK to seek help. They know I attend 12 step codependency groups. I reinforce their feelings and boundaries. If a parent is abusive - then I would step in to protect them, but rather than protect them from all dysfunctional dynamics, I want to show/teach them the tools to protect themselves and allow them to do so. This may cause friction between them and their mother, but they need to learn to navigate their boundaries respectfully and effectively.

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck- the dynamics in a BPD family tend to follow the Karpman (drama) triangle which is a dysfunctional way of relating to others. Each member can take on a specific role ( victim, rescuer, persecutor)- and one person can take on any of the roles, even with themselves. Someone who feels like a victim can "rescue" themselves with a shopping spree ( "I deserve this as I feel so bad" or alcohol ( "I need a drink as I feel so bad) or some other behavior.

In my own observations, I think the pwBPD tends to take on victim role and their partner tends to take on the rescuer/enabling role.

It then gets complicated if the non partner steps in to rescue/protect a child ( or other person ) from the pwBPD.

When your wife paints others black - like the pastor- and then decides she is going to "protect" the children from him, she's actually protecting herself from the issues that may have come into the light. She's also projecting as well. She likely doesn't see herself as being a cause of the issues. She's in victim role with regards to the pastor, and taking "rescuer" role with the children- but she's really rescuing herself. If she decides to cut off the youth activities and you step in to rescue the children and let them go, then she sees you as the persecutor in this situation.

Parenting becomes a challenge with this kind of drama. I think it would help to post particular parenting situations on the parenting board- as the parents who have navigated this kind of situation would likely have some good advice to share.

My own opinion from being raised in this situation and also raising my own kids is to help them to reinforce their own boundaries, feelings, and sense of self.  Just as you feel your wife defining you can shake up your own sense of reality, this happens with the children too. As they get older, they will begin to sense that something isn't right with their mother. You want them to be able to recognize dysfunctional people, have good boundaries and be able to say "no" to unreasonable requests. Growing up, my family was invested in keeping my mother's issues secret and telling me she was normal when I observed behaviors that were not. I was not allowed to say no to her, or speak the truth to her, so I learned to fear saying no to people. I was taught to enable her and  became an enabler.

Children will look to you as a role model. I would say that the best thing you can do to protect your children is to work on yourself- on your own boundaries, your own enabling tendencies, and your ability to be your authentic self. The dance lesson example is just one thing but the family dynamics affect all aspects of life as a child in a dysfunctional family. One example I show my children is that it is OK to seek help. They know I attend 12 step codependency groups. I reinforce their feelings and boundaries. If a parent is abusive - then I would step in to protect them, but rather than protect them from all dysfunctional dynamics, I want to show/teach them the tools to protect themselves and allow them to do so. This may cause friction between them and their mother, but they need to learn to navigate their boundaries respectfully and effectively.

Notwendy -
Good morning and thank you for the insight.   I think that the Karpman triangle fits our dynamics.  I tend to rescue myself by spending money.  The typical dynamic is as your described though, where she is the victim and I am the rescuer.  I followed your advice and posted this issue in the parenting board.  I have been trying to focus on what I can change with myself whether it be trying to be more validating or not JADEing etc.  I have also been discussing these things with my son when he brings up issues about his mom.  I am trying to help him see how he can react and communicate differently in a way that will cause less drama and be healthier.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

I hope you get some good answers on the parenting board. It is great that you are becoming aware of the dynamics and drama. It is a work in progress- change doesn't happen overnight but one step at a time can make a difference so keep on learning.