Silly me..I expected an agreement to be honored

[formflier]

I used to actually expect them to be followed... .and would get upset when they were busted.  It would "hook" me into arguments.

Today was a frustrating day... my wife had a short medical appointment, which meant kids swim was cancelled... or I would have to take them.  

I really didn't have time... .but I took them.  Tried to get some work done while sitting at side of pool.

Anyway... .there was drama getting girls and swimsuits together, my wife was complaining that we needed to fix this (we kinda do... .but my wife is the source of the problem).  Basically... kids would go to swim... some other fun thing would come up... .usually pushed by my wife... .swimsuits would be left in vehicles, grandparent's houses... .outside on trampoline... just about anywhere but the swim bag or drawer... ready to go next time.

So... .in a moment of calm I proposed that... going forward... .after swim everyone goes straight home... .don't pass go... don't collect $200... .everyone goes straight home and dries and puts away swimsuit with both parents supervising (vice doing it for them).   The "value" we are teaching is fun's not over... till everything is put away... .then perhaps we have more fun after the previous fun is over.

My wife loved it... promised we do it... .

After swim was over she called me... wanted me to bring girls over to her parents house... some relative was just leaving town... 1 time thing... .

So the agreement was modified to "as soon as the relative leaves town... everyone comes to our house and deals with swimsuits.  Then we consider the rest of the day.

Agreed.

I'm working in the garage... my wife pulls up... .there are things she has to do... she will be taking all the kids to help her... no time to talk (standard BPD blather)

I asked if she brought the little girls over to work on swimsuits... .she scoffed and hissed about how ridiculous that would be... .said there was no point talking to me and went tearing out of the neighborhood.

Sent me an email later

Hey I will bring s15 n s10 back after the heavy lifting and multiple people jobs r done... .I can stay here by myself for the next several days if I have to. Iapolpgize for not doing as you said. No matter how hard you make life for me I just have to deal with it.

I sent her the following reply

We should talk in person... when we are both at our best.

In preparation...

1.  Please consider the values we are teaching out children by abrogating agreements between parents to solve issues within the family.

2.  Think about the impact on our relationship of coming to mutual agreement, abrogating and imposing a "solution" on the other party.  

My goal is to uphold values that we are teaching our children... that I believed at one time we both agreed upon, and I still do.

[GaGrl]

FF, I heard this as what I would term "elevated language."

 how would you say this to FFwife if you were being very specific about the agreement and the breakdown of that agreement?

... .understanding that an umbrella statement of values is important... .

[formflier]

FF, I heard this as what I would term "elevated language."

 how would you say this to FFwife if you were being very specific about the agreement and the breakdown of that agreement?

... .understanding that an umbrella statement of values is important... .

Just came in from working out... .

I guess I'm not getting this.

The entire point of the way I wrote it was to NOT be specific.  Specific details leads to arguing, and circular reasoning about how "due to these specific details"... .I don't have to keep my word or (fill in the blank).

When you back up and ask the question... when do you keep your word? ... .and "more often than not" you don't... .getting wrapped up in details doesn't matter.

Not trying to argue with you... .but give more insight into my thinking.

It's likely I missed your point... please try again.

FF

[toomanydogs]

Thanks for posting this, FF. I know you didn't post for me specifically; however, I've been having a rough couple days, really missing my STBX, wishing things would have worked out. And then I read this post. And I remember.

For me--and it seems for you, as well--it wasn't that my STBX and I argued. Arguments are to be expected in a marriage. Rather, it was these kinds of things--pwBPD agreeing to solve the issue of the bathing suits, pwBPD not carrying through on the agreement and then getting angry and putting the responsibility for getting angry on the non.

In two weeks, my STBX will have been gone for one year. One year NC. Just this limbo.

And I read your posts, and I think how I can breathe now, how I'm not walking on eggshells every single day every single hour. I'm not putting twice the effort into the relationship than he is.

I realize I'm not emotionally exhausted. Tired, yes. I still have quite a ways to go on the divorce. But this is such a different tired.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to run away with your post. It's just you describe in perfect detail what a typical day can be. It's not the big arguments that did me in, it was the big arguments combined with all the small things being upended, never being able to predict what he'd do.

I am grateful I'm out, wishing I could let go of the grief.

TMD

[formflier]

Hey TMD.

I was thinking of you the other day.  Trying to imagine your property and what it would be like sitting on your porch... .drinking coffee and watching your animals.

Just talking about life... .

Yeah... .things are tougher at the moment.  As I've moved forward through this life I'm trying to navigate... .I am deliberate about caring about fewer things and the things I care about... .I care about much more.

Teaching our kids by showing them it's ok to abrogate agreements between parents (publicly... when my wife chooses to put them out there).

I often think of the example of others on here... than had a parent that was a "pushover" or  "enabler".  I can't control my wife... .but I can control my role in this.

Anyway... thanks for reaching out!

FF

[PeteWitsend]

FF, I've always admired your ability to lay down the law.  but I get the sense that sometimes you'd be better served by letting certain things drop, or picking them up in person with a gentler attitude.

For example, when I read this:

We should talk in person... when we are both at our best.

In preparation...

1.  Please consider the values we are teaching out children by abrogating agreements between parents to solve issues within the family.

2.  Think about the impact on our relationship of coming to mutual agreement, abrogating and imposing a "solution" on the other party. 

My goal is to uphold values that we are teaching our children... that I believed at one time we both agreed upon, and I still do.

... .I think "That would be a real trip to lay on a wife, even if she was a very chill person," and - even though you're in the right here - this message is too easy for a pwBPD to spin off as "ridiculous" and easily blame you, and loop in everyone in the vicinity to take her side.  Because while you're looking to teach your kids a lesson in responsibility, she's just looking to win an argument against you.  she's probably all too aware she's a mess, and looking to make herself feel better by fighting you.

Like "Jeez, I'm trying to get some business done here, and he's drafting a multi-point memo about kids' bathing suits?"

She's going to look more sympathetic to anyone who wasn't there to hear your original agreement, i.e. everyone else on the planet.  "Yeah, what's FormFlier's deal?  He's not in the Navy anymore... .guy needs to chill."

 See what mean?

I think you might be better served by confronting her with your concerns in a calmer moment, when the two of you are alone.  And also framing it as though you were upset by this, and why, and making her feel like she has more control over the situation.

Believe me... .I hate... .absolutely HATE having to approach a situation weakly like that when I know I was wronged and she breached some agreement we had, or left me to fix some mess she made.  But if I do it any other way, I get lies, the blame game, endless circular arguments, etc. etc.

If you approach it that way, and get nowhere, I think that's when you cut her off and say you tried, if she's not interested in hearing about your feelings you're not interested in hers, and you can talk when she's ready.

It's absurd in my mind that I have to put "feelings" on a pedestal (so to speak) but I look at this as fighting fire with fire.  If I'm going to stay married to someone like this, I've got to meet her halfway.

not sure if I'm expressing this clearly, but do you know what I mean?

[PeteWitsend]

... .

Teaching our kids by showing them it's ok to abrogate agreements between parents (publicly... when my wife chooses to put them out there).

I often think of the example of others on here... than had a parent that was a "pushover" or  "enabler".  I can't control my wife... .but I can control my role in this.

Anyway... thanks for reaching out!

FF

You may be better off cutting your wife out of the loop on this one and just explaining to your kids what you want them to do with their bathing suits.  it might take some repetition, but they'll get it and then maybe even surprise you by running to you for validation... ."Look dad, I remembered to bring my bathing suit back home and dry it out"

It's not ideal, and they might act like they're not listening, but I think kids appreciate it when you come to them and explain what and why you want them to do something.  

My oldest son can be a headstrong pain in the a-- like his mom, but I've noticed a lot of that is a strong reaction to being told not to do something.  It's like he bristles against orders.

Though I've found that if I explain WHY I want him to do something, he'll do it and look to me for validation.

[formflier]

Going forward... .I agree. 

If my wife keeps the children away from the house (they still aren't back yet)... .that idea doesn't really go anywhere.

This puts me in the position of no longer modifying agreements... .or even making them with my wife.

Again... silly me... why make agreements with someone that doesn't honor them.

In this case... .it would have meant saying no... .taking kids directly to our house and dealing with swimsuits first... then moving on with our responsibilities there.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I heard this as what I would term "elevated language."

We should talk in person... when we are both at our best.

In preparation...

1.  Please consider the values we are teaching out children by abrogating agreements between parents to solve issues within the family.

2.  Think about the impact on our relationship of coming to mutual agreement, abrogating and imposing a "solution" on the other party. 

My goal is to uphold values that we are teaching our children... that I believed at one time we both agreed upon, and I still do.


FF, to me, the language you have used here seems appropriate for a business meeting or a lecture at a conference, not the type of language between parents about issues with their children. It seems really formal and distant and if I were the recipient of such a message, it would really put me off, and I'm a non!

I think you are trying to address important issues here, and you are using terms to "soften" the message and you are steering clear of blame--all commendable. However, it seems that pwBPD are able to easily derive the underlying intent (and sometimes go overboard and assume our intent is to blame them rather than hold them accountable). Considering that she's got a wide streak of paranoia, I would imagine that those few sentences would have translated in her mind as the following: "FF is on his high horse. He's blaming me again for something that only he wanted. He's acting like this is such a big deal. And now he's saying that we're not on the same page with parenting."

When she breaks agreements with you, I suppose that sometimes it's just a matter of convenience for her, but other times, it's her acting out in a passive aggressive manner. 

[formflier]

I'm open to suggestions.

My "mindset" was to stay away from details and "why it's ok to abrogate". 

I do see how a pwBPD can interpret it the way you guys are suggesting.

And I get it... .my "argument" is rational (perhaps cold)... .and her world is "emotional".

Yet... .why make agreements with someone that doesn't honor them?

At which point... .why talk?

Again... I'm open to suggestions... .

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, count me in on the people that think the lecture on values was condescending. I think the conversation could have ended after this:

Hey I will bring s15 n s10 back after the heavy lifting and multiple people jobs r done... .I can stay here by myself for the next several days if I have to. I apologize for not doing as you said. No matter how hard you make life for me I just have to deal with it.

She apologized . This shows she is aware that she broke the agreement. You responded to the "word vomit" victim perspective comment following the apology.

This is a pretty typical BPD apology. She's feeling shame and so goes into victim mode. Shame is a tough emotion. So you then rubbed her nose in  it with your values speech.

I know you don't mean to be abusive, but this is how it probably feels to her. She felt in victim mode after she apologized. You were in victim mode when she broke her agreement. Then you responded with values and it probably came across to her as you being in persecutor mode.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I agree with what the others wrote as well as understanding why you wrote back to her like that.

Personally, I feel it probably would have been better to have simply written to her "I feel (or I believe) we should talk in person about this... when we are both at our best." and leave it at that. The rest probably will put her on edge and on the defensive, especially if she's feeling shame for not keeping to the agreement.

So when you do talk with her in person, maybe try to word it without blaming her; otherwise, it could enforce her feelings of shame and you probably won't get anything resolved. My suggestion would be to maybe ask her for help in figuring out how you both can keep the agreement going forward. No one is perfect, right? Mistakes happen. To not dwell on what just happened or fingerpoint but to come up with a mutual solution going forward. Life happens. Things come up at the last minute. When those things do come up, is there something both of you can do to help ensure the goal you both agreed to? Maybe the agreement could be amended to include something about "when something comes up at the last minute, how do we want to handle it?" Maybe put it on her because you highly value her input and opinion or something along those lines.

[formflier]

  My suggestion would be to maybe ask her for help in figuring out how you both can keep the agreement going forward. No one is perfect, right? Mistakes happen. To not dwell on what just happened or fingerpoint but to come up with a mutual solution going forward. Life happens. Things come up at the last minute. When those things do come up, is there something both of you can do to help ensure the goal you both agreed to? Maybe the agreement could be amended to include something about "when something comes up at the last minute, how do we want to handle it?" Maybe put it on her because you highly value her input and opinion or something along those lines.

These are all solid suggestions... .good thinking.

In my particular case, they have all been done before... many times.

Clarity... .she has put in writing how she would like to handle "last minute things", and promptly done something else... blaming me a various others for "having to do it that way".

I get it... that's who she is... that is what she does.

Which brings me back to a central conundrum I, and many others here have to deal with.  How/why make agreements with someone that doesn't follow them?


There was another comment above that I should have left off the "bottom part" of my email.  That's likely a much better course of action than what I did.

FF

[GaGrl]

OK, so I'm back, but others have jumped in with comments on my calling the language "elevated."

So it's a pattern, and it's irritating.  I'm sure you have multiple other examples of agreements being broken (thus the pattern).

So how about approaching a conversation as just that --

"FFwife, we seem to have a pattern developing of making agreements that are pretty promptly broken.  That isn't something I want to model for our children.  When can we talk about this?"

Or... .just say it's not something you're going to solve, and live with it.

[toomanydogs]

Which brings me back to a central conundrum I, and many others here have to deal with.  How/why make agreements with someone that doesn't follow them?




FF

Hey FF,

I get what people are saying here about the formal language being off-putting. Towards the end of my relationship, I resorted to very brief, very formal language with my STBX.

I used that language because I'd spent so many years trying not to personalize what he was doing/what he'd done. Using formal language helped me control my feelings, as what I'd wanted to do was jump and down and scream at him. (Which I did every once in a while)

I get the sense that you may be using language as a bit of a barrier, as well. Am I close at all to how you're feeling?

Towards the end (and now that I'm in the process of detaching) I realized that no matter what I said or how I said it, nothing would change.

I didn't have issues with the kinds of agreements you mention, but mine were similar in that we'd "agree" we needed to spend more time together, and we'd set up "dates" where we'd go out to dinner. He'd back out at the last minute, or dates to watch TV. He'd back out. Everything we planned, he backed out of. And I do mean everything.

What I ended up learning was not to plan anything with him, and I learned to establish my life away from him.

I had to use that formal language because he'd broken my heart, and sharing that kind of intimacy would only have been used against me.

I think what I'm saying and trying really hard not to say it, is do you think you may be reaching the limit of what you're willing to do?

I know you aren't me, and your marriage is not mine and probably doesn't even resemble mine, but the language thing does make me wonder.

Thinking of you, FF. And pulling for you.  
TMD

[I_Am_The_Fire]

That makes sense and I get it. As gagrl mentioned, maybe stop making agreements or just live with it realizing it will or won't happen. It is what it is and she will have to find a way to deal with the consequences.

I like someone else's idea of putting it on the kids to remember to put their swimsuits away at home whenever they get there. If they forget them at someone else's place, then they have to deal with the consequences of not remembering them.

[formflier]

Interesting development. 

In the middle of the day... .when we are both at our best.  She approached me and asked if I would like to talk.

I said sure... I'll be in to chat in about 5 minutes.

My plan is to listen a lot.

We'll see.

FF

[Red5]

Afternoon FF,

My two cents here, yes, two old worn out copper wheat pennies with ole’ honest Abe’s tired silhouette starring out to the starboard side of nothing… ,

What would I have done, if the ROE were identical same same…

… if Red5W had pulled up into drive way, and reported in to me in such as a manner as you describe, considering the mutual agreement in regards to wet swim suits… I would have overridden her intent/prerogative; to bundle the two young lads off to points yet unknown without firstly washing out their gear first… yes, I would have ordered the two young lads outa the car, and inside the house most riki-tik!… with standing orders to wash out, and hang out their swim trunks to dry, hubba hubba chop chop!… and then released them to their mum upon their immediate return; thus to continue on with the plan of the day, five to ten minute tops, then RedW could have continued on with her mission, and the wet swim suits would have been taken care of as per agreement(s), if RedW did not like this; me (Red5) “going over her helmet”… well that’s too bad, “we” could talk about it later if she wanted too…

BUTT the wet swim suits would have been taken care of, and ready for the next trip to the beach.

Imagine if you will, we are in Red5’s garage/shed/shop… the temperature is well over ninety degrees, a great day to go on down to the beach, the river, the creek… the old swimming hole, so off the wife goes with the kids… while Red5 turns wrenches in the man cave…

The standing rule is… when the swimming is over, the swimmers and their gear will return home, return to base (RTB) and then all hands will wash out their gear, hang it up to dry, and then continue on with the plan of the day… yes?

Standing rule, standard operating procedures (SOP), no ready for issue swim suits available, then no swimming, cut and dry right?

Consequences of not being responsible right(?), and not taking care of your stuff, your gear, so it’s ready to go next time the crew is allowed to go swimming.

Yeah… “ok dear”, I hear you loud and clear but “Negative Ghost Rider” , stand fast… hey there you two, (talking to MY two sons that are sitting in the back of the Blazer in their wet swim trunks)… get your sugar cookie butts in that house right now, and wash out them swim trunks! & hang them up in your bathroom to dry… come on now!… chop chop hubba hubba, your mums waiting!

Babe, now go in and get us a beer outa the ice box will ya !  

I am having flashbacks of pretty white Pensacola Beach sand ; )

Hope this helps FF  ,

Red5

[formflier]

So... .49 minutes and 53 seconds.

That's what it takes to work through "we never had that conversation" and "there was no agreement" and "that never happened"

to "going forward... .how would you like to be approached when I would like you to reflect back our agreement rather than saying "ok I agree""

her first response...

"Well... you could actually say the things you say you say... "  (i didn't bite)

then she softened some...

"you could ask me to let you know what I heard"... .(she pauses)... ."when it's reasonable to do so".

I said I would be happy to do use those words and that seemed appropriate.  Then I followed with "so... what would happen when one of us thinks "it's not appropriate""

She said... "well... you can just get over it in those cases... "  (I didn't bite... .or get upset)

I said "That concerns me greatly that part of our plan is for one of us to just get over it... "

She was quiet for a while... .and said that she couldn't be repeating things "all the time"... which I agreed with... .and assured her I would only expect it when I ask.

Lots of sighing for a while... .trying to devalue the thing by saying "it was just swimsuits... they mean nothing"... . She understood I saw it as protecting a marital agreement and the "content" of the agreement didn't matter.

Again... I didn't bite... .but also didn't "give up my position"... .

There really didn't seem to to be much else to say and she started wanting to get assurances she could do certain things with the children over the weekend.  I told her I would give it some thought... .that many things were still undone.  

She started to get upset again wanting to know why... ."FFw... .when plans are made and changed those things don't magically get done.  Nothing we had talked about doing yesterday, including dealing with swimsuits got done, lets focus on working off some things over the next day or two and talk more about the weekend after that."

Our time together ended with her going to eat.


49 minutes and 53 seconds.

Sigh.

FF

[formflier]

Red,

I agree with you.

Only one of the kids in the car was a swimmer.  The other 3 were left at her parents, when the agreement was that they all come back here.

I made a mistake by altering and dropping them off.  I should have known it wouldn't happen.  I had custody of the kids and could have taken them back to house and continued with the plan.

Anyway... .

FF

[Red5]

I made a mistake by altering and dropping them off.  I should have known it wouldn't happen.  I had custody of the kids and could have taken them back to house and continued with the plan.

She said... "well... you can just get over it in those cases... "  

... .wow !, "get over it huh"... .hmmm,

"That dog don't hunt" with me... .matter of fact, that would probably piss me off   !

Yeah, I would have said, "Hun", we will swing by your folks after we go home first and dry off, get a snack, and wash out, see you soon !... .Love Ya !

And then maintain radio silence... .

... .then She could "get over it".

But I am kinda mean sometimes I have been told.

Oh' well,

Red5

[Notwendy]

FF, I have noticed another element to these "broken agreements"- the pull of her family. It seems in many cases the agreement holds until her family pulls at her- she gave money to them, the uncle's visit interrupted your drywall work with your son, the bathing suit plan was interrupted by family visit.

I agree that your wife is accountable for her agreements, but the family pull may not be something she is even conscious of. I have discussed this in other posts- how our family "rules" can be ingrained, and also dysfunctional but so automatic if we grew up in them that they don't seem not normal to us.

People with BPD can also have co-dependent traits- the inability to say "no" to other's requests. Also your wife may genuinely fear saying "no" to her family. I can identify with this- growing up with a fear of saying no to my parents. I would bet there are some strange family dynamics going on in her family.

Could it be that your wife keeps many of the agreements between the two of you that don't involve her own FOG when it comes to her family? It could be that they really put her in a tough emotional bind with their expectations. These situations could be something she struggles with. Perhaps it is a choice of fears- and she feels more emotionally secure with you, than them, so her fear of not complying with her family is greater.

[formflier]

Very likely that is true Notwendy.

She is very black and white with her family.  Won't say no... won't say no... .won't say no (poof)... .won't say yes... .they are horrible... .won't say yes... .(poof)

She is conscious of this in her calmer moments and doesn't "remember" when worked up

FF

[Notwendy]

It isn't conscious. I have been "hooked " into something by my mother and not even realized it until it was done. It's because the tendency to follow the family rules and dynamics has been there since we were very small. I've had this discussion with a sibling. BPD mom makes unreasonable requests and he does them. I asked " why didn't you just say no?" His reply is that "it's like something comes over me, like a trance"

Our mothers were the first voice we heard as an infant and that voice constantly talked to us before we even had language. We were enlisted very early on to help her and be her emotional caregivers and to fear saying no to her. I am more aware of the tendency to comply now, but it really takes effort and feels uncomfortable to have boundaries on her. I can only imagine this is so much harder for someone with BPD.

[Notwendy]

My H has his family "rules" too.  His sister did something annoying the other day, and I was ticked off about it and said something. To my H, any sense of criticism of his family is a problem. He immediately took up for her. I expect this as this is how things are in his FOO. He will take up for them first. You do not say anything critical about his family.

[Red5]

To my H, any sense of criticism of his family is a problem. He immediately took up for her.

I expect this as this is how things are in his FOO.

He will take up for them first. You do not say anything critical about his family.

You know what they say, "blood is thicker"... .I have been "trounced" many times by my u/BPDW over foo and said failure to "deconflict" when W and I are 1v1 over some issue regarding her foo.

I have stood my ground (boundary), but it is sometimes (in the past); shall we say... ."costly".

It will happen quite suddenly as well, .in a flash, like is described above, ie' a "trance".

Even if the alleged issue is blatant in nature, .as in, W is going on about a foo sis, or niece or nephew, a BIL, or even her foo mum... .I now have a hard wired countermeasure... .WARNING, do not "join in", or validate her (W's) remarks in any way, and or speech in regards to the foo family member in question, .especially in "in company " of foo members, say over dinner out, or at a foo gathering... .NO, say nothing, and change the subject if at all possible, or just walk away... .and; if pressed for a response, or else pressured to "participation in the conversation"... .avoid avoid avoid... .this is indeed a trap... .as pw/BPD or persons w/BPD will quickly turn on you, me, us the Non's... .to ensure the sanctity of their "emotional reasoning"... .I have experienced this on a myriad of occasions... .its a feeding frenzy to be "frank"... .they will turn on each other, and if you are too close, you may lose a finger, or worse, so keep your distance... .yes, "stay outa the water" when they get to going in that direction.

Yes, don't be fooled, and beware the comfort zone !

It is however interesting to listen to, to watch transpire; and to witness first hand.

Red5