Yesterday: Got out of the car before more escalation, proud I was assertive

[maxsterling]

I thought it would be good to start a thread about what happened yesterday.  I am back on this board because I am feeling again that something has to give.  Between the stress of work, the stress of life, and the stress of kids, I no longer have patience to deal with the stress of BPD.  Yes, the tools help, but I feel like unless something changes on her end I simply don't have the energy on my end to constantly be avoiding conflict.  For example, SET and JADE help, as do boundaries, but the end result looks more like avoidance and a relationship where she and I do separate things.  She wants to know why we don't talk much anymore - well - seems like every time we talk she is being negative, nitpicky, or wants to start a fight about something.  So, to not JADE means don't talk.  Even when it is a benign subject like something cute the kids did, she finds a way to criticize.  If I don't want to JADE, I learn to not bring things up.  Right now I can honestly say that I am staying because of the kids.  This isn't the relationship I wanted and definitely not what I want going forward.   I recognize that much of the time I live in fear of the next dysregulation.  


Yesterday she wanted to take the kids to the children's museum in the morning.  She offered to drive me to work because I work somewhat close to the museum.  I knew accepting the offer would be a mistake.  I helped her get ready.  I made sure the diaper bag had what it needed.  I got the kids dressed and packed them a snack.  We got in the car to leave, and hadn't backed out of the driveway when my wife remarked how she forgot her glasses, immediately followed with a remark about how she can do without them, then immediately followed with a comment about how she has no time to run in and get them.  To me she had already decided she would do without. Fine.  Well, before we got to the end of the driveway she remarked how now she would have a headache all day.  Then how I am selfish for not offering to go in and get her glasses for her.  I instructed her to turn around so I could go in and get them.  She refused (a big frustration of mine is that she will present problems, then REFUSE all solutions, and continue to complain and yell that I am doing nothing to help).  It escalated from there for the next half mile until we got to a red light.  I told her that I didn't want to talk about this for the next half hour on my way to work, and she escalated further.  I told her that I would rather drive myself to work, and asked if she would return to the house.  She refused.  Since we were stopped at a red light a short distance from the house, I told her I was going to get out and walk home and drive myself.  She then yelled at me for opening the car door.  I told her again that I won't ride to work with her if she is going to complain about me and yell at me the whole way.  She agreed to change the subject, but the new subject was about how muc of a jerk I was for wanting to change the subject.  A few miles down the road she said she was going to let me out as soon as she could pull over.  I was OK with that.  But then we got to another long red light, and she escalated further.  At that point I elected to just get out there on my own.  I did, and took public transportation to work.

W then elected to not go to the museum because she was too upset.  Instead, she drove to my work because I had left my work bag in the car.  I told her I did not need the bag and she could leave it in the car.  She refused.  She insisted on dropping it off at my work complaining about having to lug it around all day.  Well, public transportation took me 45 minutes, and she waited at my work the whole time.  She complained that I uspet the kids when I got out (the kids were probably uspet by her screaming at me).  I got to work, got my bag, and said bye to the kids.  She (thankfully) was on the phone with her therapist.

She had mostly calmed down by last night.

My self-evaluation of the situation:
1) I need to heed my own intuition that having her drive me to work was likely to be trouble.
2) I'm proud of myself for exiting the car rather than listen to her yell all the way to work.  In hindsight, I would have been better off getting out the first time and not getting back in the car.  
3) There could have been other solutions here rather than get out at a red light.  The fact I got out at a red light upset her more (she said I was demonizing her). I could have been more insistent that she drive me home or tolerated her yelling for another two minutes until she could pull over in a parking lot.  that did go through my head at the time, and my logic was that getting out at the red light gave me immediate peace.  Had she pulled over, she may have continued to lecture me for a few minutes while I arranged for alternative transportation. Had she driven me home, I would have had to listen to her the 5 minutes back to the house, and likely would have continued until I got my keys and got into my car.  

I'm hoping W learns from this, but I doubt she will.  I am proud of myself for being assertive when my line got crossed.  W thinks I was trying to control her behavior.  She doesn't seem to get that it was simply enforcing a boundary (Deep down she must, though, because she did nearly the exact same thing with her dad a few weeks ago where she chose to leave rather than listen to him criticize and complain about her).  She remarked that it was me trying to control her behavior because if I was enforcing my boundaries I need to make it clear what my boundaries are and that I never enforce my boundaries.  I simply replied that one does not need to explicitly state that they have personal boundaries about being yelled at or cussed at because those are universal boundaries.  The good news is she did call her T.  

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Max,
I’m sorry to hear that your coping skills have been stretched beyond their capacity with work, kids and life in general. Yes, it takes a lot of energy to be able to cope with a pwBPD.  

In dealing with your wife’s constant negativity, you find yourself pulling away and keeping your thoughts to yourself and as a result, you’re living rather separate lives. You find yourself anticipating her next dysregulation.

Though you got the kids ready for the trip to the museum, your wife was critical of you for not offering to get her forgotten glasses, and even refused to let you do that when you offered. It seems like that was a good excuse for her subsequent dysregulation as she drove.

Good for you for exiting the car as she became more agitated.    It’s interesting how pwBPD can interpret our using boundaries as being “controlling”.  My guess is because they have such a loose sense of their own boundaries, they interpret our behavior as an attack on them, rather than us not tolerating unacceptable treatment.

How do you imagine these situations between you two will change as the twins get older?

Cat

[formflier]

  I knew accepting the offer would be a mistake.   

Max,

I have done this often.  If you read my other recent posts... .I kinda knew changing plans a few days ago wouldn't go well.

The times when I look back and said "I should have been an a$$hole earlier" and the entire thing would be a lot less hassle.  

I really enjoy "being a nice guy"... .being accommodating... etc etc.  However, as you can imagine... .pwBPD take advantage of that.

Most of the times "when I have been most effective"  are when I'm a firm... but "untriggered" a$$hole.

So... .my wife claiming I'm unreasonable... I'm this and I'm that... .but I don't argue or "participate" in the fight.

Hopefully you can channel that thought in your strategy with your wife... going forward.

Really sorry dude... .I've always got the sense that you would be a nice guy to hang out with... .do some fun stuff in the shop... .drink a cold beer... etc etc.  

FF

[maxsterling]

How do you imagine these situations between you two will change as the twins get older?

Cat

Well, I think some of the current stress will lessen as the kids get older.  Two toddlers is endless work.  But, knowing BPD, W's stress level will not change - it will morph into something else to feel stressed about.  She needs a high stress level for life to feel "normal" for her.  She will fill the void left by whatever milestone the kids cross.  


At this point, I don't see these situations changing for the better unless W changes.  In some ways that sounds like a selfish claim of perfection on my end, but I don't see it that way at all.  I am simply saying that we can't work on anything as a couple unless W is capable of seeing and understanding the most basic things and exhibits *some* control over her behavior.  I would consider that wanting to not be screamed at in the car as a basic boundary one of those things.  More complex relationship-destroying situations like double standards can't be touched until the basic rules of engagement are agreed upon.  


Lately what I am predicting will happen is that W will dysregulate and rage toward someone else in public, which will get law enforcement involved, and likely a social worker or CPS.  A few months ago we got rear ended, W jumped out and screamed at the woman until she cried.  Had I not been there to separate them and get W to wait in the car with the kids, W could have escalated and charged with assault.  And considering she has a Medical Marijuana vape on her most of the time, she could have been charged with DUI had the police responded to her agressive behavior and searched her.  Her T has already warned her about this potential scenario, but W seems to dismiss it as unlikely.

[formflier]

 Had I not been there to separate them and get W to wait in the car with the kids, W could have escalated and charged with assault.  

How do you see life playing out if you hadn't have been there... .or as you predict... when you are not there... next time?

Do you have a good relationship with your wife's T?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So you’re hoping for some minimal standards of self awareness and self control.

And as far as her having a public meltdown at some point, it’s likely not an “if” but a “when”.

I’m also curious about her therapy and if you have regular input with her T. With her past substance abuse, what does her T think about medical marijuana? And what do you think about her use of it?

[maxsterling]

So you’re hoping for some minimal standards of self awareness and self control.

And as far as her having a public meltdown at some point, it’s likely not an “if” but a “when”.

I’m also curious about her therapy and if you have regular input with her T. With her past substance abuse, what does her T think about medical marijuana? And what do you think about her use of it?

Yep.  That's what I hope for.   *Minimal* standards.  I don't think she currently meets that threshold. 


I don't have a relationship with her T.  I sat in on one of her T sessions a year or two ago.  And a few years prior to that I think I spoke with T on the phone because W was suicidal and in the hospital.  I've met her, and she seems nice.  I can't say whether T is helpful or not because W sometiems tells me what T suggests, and wife rarely follows through.  There are a few things T has been ver helpful with because T had some similar life experiences (same religion, mother of twins, etc).   


As for MM - I'm of the opinion that it helps some people, but the vast majority of MM users are using it as a means of "checking out" and making their problems worse.  I see my wife falling into that category.  She swears it helps her tremendously.  I think it has been mostly a disaster.  The only positive I can see is that it's better than Opioids or Xanax, both of which she has abused and nearly killed herself with in the past.  I think her depression has gotten worse since starting, I think her anxiety has gotten worse since starting, her overall health is worse, and she seems to have less ambition (leading to further depression).  And perhaps worst is that I think she leans on it now and will no longer focus on constructive self care (meditation, exercize, etc).  I've tried to be constructive with her when she talks about it without sounding judgmental, and sticking to boundaries.  I recognize this is her decision.   I ask that she not use it in the house, that she not use it around the babies, and be mindful of the cost.  She tries to push those boundaries by using vapes and by claiming she buys stuff on sale (she won't figure out her total expendature).  If she asks me something like, "o you think my MM use is making me lazy?"   I will respond by saying something like, "I can't answer that for you, but I do know one of the common side effects is feeling tired and forgetful."


I think her T is trying to steer her in the direction of responsible use by getting her to see issues it is causing.  Again, I don't know for sure.  I do know T has encouraged her at times to go back to a 12 step meeting or two just for the social aspect.  I suspect an ulterior motive by T here.  T has also encouraged W to take a break from use, something W hasn't done for a year.  Not even a single day without.  T has also suggested to W of being mindful of her dose, and only using during certain times of the day.  W can't seem to do that.  T has also suggested that W keep a notebook of her use, when she used, how much, and how it helped or didn't help.  W won't do that either.  I don't see at this point how T can conclude anything other than W has no control over her use and that it is having a negative impact on her life.  But AFAIK, T has never tried to tell W she is addicted and needs to quit.  Of course if T did that, W would find a new T. 

[formflier]

Did your wife go on disability?

Trying to understand her access to funds... .how she budgets for MM and other things.

My memory is several short term and high conflict jobs... and perhaps then on disability or applying for it.

FF

[maxsterling]

Did your wife go on disability?

Trying to understand her access to funds... .how she budgets for MM and other things.

My memory is several short term and high conflict jobs... and perhaps then on disability or applying for it.

FF

She got permanent disability around the same time she was diagnosed BPD - 15 or so years ago.  Any time she is not working she can collect disability.  So, staying at home with the kids she collects disability.  The reality is, she probably needs it.  The longest time she has managed to keep a job ever in her life is maybe 2 years.  I think she has had 6 jobs in the 5+ years I have known her, one she quit the day before her first day, the other she quit after her first day.  Actually there were others she got hired for and didn't accept... .And to consider that more than half of that 5+ years she has been collecting disability it's pretty obvious that she typically lasts at a job for just a few months.


She doesn't budget.  We did sit down and discuss how much we could afford for her to spend on MM.  I suspect she spends twice that.  She is aware of how much it costs, and I think she is afraid of totaling how much she spends.  Rather than budgeting, she takes an attitude that she is saving money by finding sales and cheaper ways to use.  She justifies.  If she starts questioning her expenditure in this area, her solution is always to find more sales or find cheaper ways to use rather than to use less.  I am not an expert in how much a typical user consumes, but I can say she uses more than anyone I have ever known, and employees at dispensaries have remarked to her that she has a "high tolerance" or that she must like to "get stoned" (to which W gets very upset by). 


I think deep down she knows she is dependent, or addicted, knows she spends too much on it, and knows it isn't really helping her.  But, she thinks that is all just voices in her head leftover from her years in 12-step programs. 

[formflier]

Gotcha... so... .she spends all her disability "and then some".  Right?

I get it she has control of her disability.

How does she access the rest of it?  How do you control the money you bring into the family?

FF

[maxsterling]

Gotcha... so... .she spends all her disability "and then some".  Right?

I get it she has control of her disability.

How does she access the rest of it?  How do you control the money you bring into the family?

FF

She doesn't have access to the rest of it.  I just pay most of the bills.  Her responsibility is herself.  The disability money is enough to cover the MM and clothes and stuff she buys for herself and the kids.  Sometimes she will buy groceries.  There isn't any left by the end of the month, though.

EDIT - she does have access to it, but the bank account app on her phone got locked for typing in the wrong password too many times, she won't call to fix it, so for the past year or so she has no way of transferring money from my account to her account.  She has to ask me. 

It's funny.  One day she was complaining about not having any money to buy herself something new.  She remarked "All my money goes to pot and stuff for the kids!"  Couldn't see the forest through the trees.  If she gave up the MM, she's have another 200-300 per month in her pocket.

[DivDad]

My only comments for you are:  (1)  It took me quite awhile to understand that my exBPDw would (many times) start an arguments or bait me with petty things when my children were present and there was no escape.  Either in the house or in the car.  My uBPD wanted an audience.  As your C get older and watch the "bickering", they are going to hear an editorial from the BPD on things after the argument is over.  (2) While your C are toddlers, maybe get into the habit of removing yourself from the situation when you see an argument or negative discussion coming on.  (Although it’s Monday morning quarterbacking, you should have gotten out of the car the first time you saw things brewing.)  (3)  C pick up on things more than you think.  (4)  When things are calm, just mention to the BPD that you will not discuss adult things or disagreements in front of the children. When things start brewing, and it will, quietly remove yourself from the situation.  Get into the habit now in order to set some boundaries later on.

[Notwendy]

Max, you mentioned that no matter what solution you offered to her issue with the glasses, she didn't accept it.

What if- the problem is the solution?

PwBPD have difficulty managing their own uncomfortable feelings. We all have them, but we deal with them. These feelings have to have a "source" ( something to project them on) and a way to come out. The dysregulations are how they get rid of them and the "problem" becomes the reason for them. The problem has to exist to justify the dysregulation, as they don't see it as something about them.   When she's beginning to dysregulate about something, and you offer a solution to the "something" it doesn't work- because the "something" isn't the problem. The feelings are. I think once a dysregulation starts, it keeps going until it is over.

I think that people who use anger as a regulator may even ( not consciously ) pick arguments to get the emotional release. It helps to be alert to these "drama baits"

I agree that in a car with kids or even in a car alone is an opportunity for a dysregulation. It may not be planned, but once there, it's a setting that would easily lead the pwBPD voicing complaints, or blowing off steam.

The drug use works to manage the bad feelings. I would venture to say that this is the source of every addiction. The 12 steps are a long process. The first priority is for the person to become chemically sober ( if they have a drug or alcohol addiction) but after that, some members find themselves in co-dependency or ACA groups to deal with the feelings that were the  reason for the drug/alcohol use. I attend the co-dependency and ACA groups and there are several members who also worked on drug/alcohol use, but found they needed to do more with the emotional aspect of addiction. I honestly don't know how effective the programs would be for someone with BPD- I guess that is up to your wife's T to know, but it does require the ability to look at oneself and also tolerate a sponsor to help you do that. The step- "I am powerless" is an acknowledgement of addiction.

[Cat Familiar]

She's caught in the addiction cycle with medical marijuana, but it's an improvement from the opioids and benzos that she's used in the past and nearly killed herself with. Though she thinks it helps her, you've noticed that her depression and anxiety are worse and she's no longer exercises or meditates and as a result, her health has worsened.

She funds her marijuana habit with her disability income, which leaves little money left for clothing for herself and the children and she seldom buys groceries, while you supply money for all other needs. She has agreed not to use it around your children, but she uses daily and in large quantities, and you are concerned about the possibility it might result in a DUI when she's driving.

What other limits do you imagine you might have to set regarding her use as the children get older?

[Red5]

Afternoon Max,

My self-evaluation of the situation:
1) I need to heed my own intuition that having her drive me to work was likely to be trouble.

Yes, TRUST your gut.

Took me years to understand this, but it has never led me down the wrong path, inner instinct, spiritual inner guidance, whatever you want to call it, ."gut"... .it "primordial"... .original installed equipment, and it works... .yes trust it, your gut instinct.

My u/BPD wife is also now on disability, she resigned her state job over internal conflict with supervisor(s)... .after she was dx with stage IV C... .then went back all these months later and got them to reinstate, for administrative purposes, so she could get the disability rating... .and claimed they had treated her unfairly due to her medical condition, and then when they did not pay out her (sick) leave as she had calculated it, .she slipped her rail... .I said nothing, and did not validate her, and I was called a few names... .this is what happens when pw/BPD engages in emotional reasoning, and then when that does not "compute", the anger comes out sideways... .and gets all over the Non... .I wanted to say to her, but I did not;... .you resigned dear, because you got angry with the VP, when you resign three feet short, you don't get across the finish line, your lucky to have gotten what they deemed you should get... .as in the very people whom she was in conflict with in her old office, her actual co-workers former'... .were responsible for the "bean counting"... . 

Yeah, I knew better, .I just said, you are going to be fine (SET)... .I have my retirement, and also we have the medical coverage that goes along with that... .and I am working still, we'll be fine, you'll be fine, so don't worry... .

Did not matter, .she is still peeved about it all... .

Yeah, stick with your gut Max, it'll never let you down.

Red5

 

[maxsterling]

What if- the problem is the solution?

For sure.  I've learned to recognize when W is stewing over something and I know it is going to come out one way or another.  The dysregulation is her "solution" to the feelings she is having.  The feelings may or may not be rational.  They be real, or they may be perceived.   So if she has a feeling of loneliness, she stews on it awhile and eventually her "solution" is to make it someone else's problem.  Even the other day as she tried rationalizing her behavior to herself (and me) she remarked how everyone gets angry at times, yet it was *my* fault for overreacting to her anger and getting out of the car.  To her, getting angry and creating conflict is normal.  Her way of dealing with the self-hatred relating to forgetting her glasses is to lash out at me.  She admits this - yet seems to downplay this as "normal".  Getting upset is normal.  Treating others badly as a solution to being upset is not OK.  To me this is one of those basic things that needs to change before there can be any progress.  If she recognizes that she is treating others badly and knows it needs to stop, then it is self-control that needs to change.  If she sees acting out towards others as an acceptable outlet for her feelings, then I see that as a bigger problem, and something else that has to change before any progress.


My issue ATM is that I can't continue like this.  I came back to this board because "tolerating it" is the way I feel right now.  Removing myself from the conflict was a great start, but I'd get pretty tired of doing that day out. 

[Notwendy]

Max, it is a challenge to live with someone with a mental disorder. Without intensive therapy and work on their part, that is unlikely to change. You already know that we can not change someone else. However, a relationship takes two and we can have some impact on relationship dynamics if we work on our side of it.

Personal change takes a lot of work, and for now, with twins at their ages, and your wife and job, you are probably running on empty most of the time which makes this hard to do.

The most immediate need for you is probably self care. How can you carve a little time in the day to take care of you? It may feel like you can't,  but if you can take some steps- once a week, an hour here or there, that would be a possible doable step. You mentioned your wife was in 12 steps once, but she doesn't need to be in that program for you to attend meetings- CODA, ALANON, to learn how to cope better with her addictions. You would not be alone- you would find people in similar situations and that is social support for you. ( along with this board)

[maxsterling]

The most immediate need for you is probably self care. How can you carve a little time in the day to take care of you? It may feel like you can't,  but if you can take some steps- once a week, an hour here or there, that would be a possible doable step. You mentioned your wife was in 12 steps once, but she doesn't need to be in that program for you to attend meetings- CODA, ALANON, to learn how to cope better with her addictions. You would not be alone- you would find people in similar situations and that is social support for you. ( along with this board)

Agreed.  For awhile the twins were not sleeping in their own room.  I was the person who got up to change diapers, feed, etc, but I didn't mind so much because I considered feeding my child a bottle or rocking him/her at 2am when everyone else was asleep a form of self care.    Eventually, W had enough, and both went into their own room.  It was rough for the first few nights, but now we put them to bed around 7PM and they wake up about 6AM the next morning.  Usually, they sleep the entire time and need no attention from us.  W is pretty tired all the time.  I suspect MM has something to do with that, but also just stress and fatigue.  So, she typically falls asleep before 9pm.  That period between 9pm and whenever I choose to sleep is my self-care time.  It has been a Godsend!  Sometimes I will sacrifice a little sleep and head to bed around 11pm,  staying up tinkering or just relaxing.  Sadly, I get excited when W puts her pajamas on at 8PM.  I think she wants me to go to bed at that time, too, but I always tell her I will be in a little later.  I usually go wash dishes or something and by the time I am done she is asleep. 

Regarding 12 step meetings for myself - there used to be an al-anon meeting that met during my lunch hour just a few minutes from my office.  Our office has moved, and workload has increased.  Attending those meetings is now difficult.  Evening meetings are also not convenient for my schedule right now.  I can look for online groups or meetings, or possibly weekend meetings. 

[formflier]

Max... .can you give an estimate... .let's say over past couple months.

How much of your r/s is "tolerable"... ."good"... ."bad"... .and "nuclear"

My wife is pretty high functioning... .and I do avoid conflict.  I've also kinda "built a life" for myself that I do... and many times it doesn't involve her.

I'm wondering /hoping if there is a similar thing you can do.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Max,
How's it going today? I know you've got your hands full and very little free time. Let us hear from you when you can.

Cat