No clue what to do and how to do it...

[jroyal]

Firstly, forgive my poor spelling and grammar. Writing this isn't easy... .so please feel free to ask me questions as I maybe all over the place and skip important information.

I am far from perfect and I have made plenty of mistakes, but after 11 years and 3 kids, I just never thought this is how it would end. My wife in December announced that she wanted space. It was after I had found that she had been having some sort of relationship with a doctor at her work. This isn't the first time this had happened, in fact 3 years prior she had done the same. Both incidents resulted in a pregnancy and abortion, but the first (that I know of) resulted in serious remorse and regret and her hospitalization (it was during that time that they said she had both Bipolar and BPD). Upon finding out about the first incident 3 years ago I had said I was done, but she had cut herself so significantly she had to be put on a 51/50. cutting and bulimia has been apart of her life since she was about 12. While she was gone we talked and I sought help and advice. Once she returned I forgave her and we moved on. This time however she had no remorse, although throughout the process she has broken down and wanted to make it work, until her new boyfriend came into the picture (this is the 5th or 6th guy since December, but the first that has wanted a relationship with her).

On top of my own issues and struggles with the situation I have 3 children. My oldest daughter is 10 and has now taken on her mother's body issues. She claims she is gross looking or fat. She also has the most strained relationship with her mother and if things continue this way I fear that it will quickly become and irreparable rift. My son, 8 has suddenly become more attached to his mother. Up until this point he has always been my mini, this isn't a bad thing, but I fear what her choices and life might do to that new bond and relationship. My youngest daughter at 6 has suddenly resorted to calling herself stupid, or claiming it's all her fault for any issue that arises. This is also a trait of my wife's and she has even started saying she should just kill herself in extreme cases, which shakes me to my core.

I have two sides in this, one a very logical mindset, the other a committed emotion that just won't quit. I just need some support, guidance, insight... .basically everything you got. I put my kids first and my wife second and myself a distant third.

Some other things that might be pertinent, my wife has used alcohol to self medicate and carries around pills that are not hers (though I'm not sure if she uses them). She has serious anger issues and struggles with the kids, numerous times offering to give me complete custody. She feels drawn to live a "fun single life", thought this changes from time to time, but is her current trend. She has 6 days every other week with the kids and because her new boyfriend has 3 children as well (and is not divorced as of yet) she seems to be more inclined to spend time with them, but still only sees them for 3-4 days out of her time. She seems to have moments of clarity, but they are only moments and she lacks empathy and freely admits it.

Although I have said a lot of negative here, it is not all her fault. She has had a very tough life, she has been a good mother when I was an absent father and works her ass off at any job she has ever had. She is beautiful in ways that even I can't seem to understand and she is the woman who gave me the 3 things most important in my life.

Thanks in advance, I know no one can fix this for me, but I have to be able to do the best I can for both my kids and her. I am seeking advice on filing for divorce, custody and co-parenting.

[JNChell]

 

Hey there, jroyal. I’m sorry that you had to find us for the reasons you have, but glad that you did. This is a great support group where we help and support each other. You’ll find that you have a lot in common with other members here and that you’re not alone in this. I’m not an authority on this board, but there are some very strong members and staff that focus on this board that will be an excellent resource to help guide you and walk you through this. Sit tight, they’ll be along shortly. Welcome.

[Harley Quinn]

What a difficult situation.  I really feel for you.  Beginning to see behaviours in your kids is a very frightening thing to experience.  I have been having concerns myself recently about my S4.  It's great that you found us.  

With regards your relationship with your wife, would you want to rebuild if you felt you could?  When you say your wife asked for space, did that result in you moving out, or her?  Are the childcare arrangements formal or agreed between yourselves?

Although you are going through such a difficult time your compassion and care for your wife is clear and I'd urge you to give yourself the same level of compassion.  It's very important that you take good care of yourself so that you can be strong right now, not only for your own wellbeing but that of your family.  So self care is a must.  Please make concerted efforts to look after yourself and ensure your own basic needs are met at a minimum.  o you see a counsellor?  How much support do you have around you in the shape of friends, family, etc?

You've come to the right place for support.  I'm sure that others will offer their insights from their own experiences.  We are here for you and help is at hand.  

Love and light x

[jroyal]

I would always fight for and in favor of my family being whole and healthy. If I had the opportunity I would try, but would expect just as much effort on her side. We had made a plan to move back to a town with family and friends and try to rebuild there, unfortunately it ended with just the kids and I moving. Currently we don't have any formal agreement. Neither of us have filed, though she is admit for now that she wants the divorce, so I have been debating on starting the process.

I do see a counselor and seek aid from friends and family which I have in town now.

[jroyal]

I should clarify, I am looking for help with preparing for said divorce and custody proceedings. What I should expect, what I should prepare for, what I should have ready in case of things with her deteriorating further.

[JNChell]

Thanks for pointing that out. Can I suggest that reading through some of the threads on this board may be a good place to start until the other members are able to reach out?

[david]

First, get you head straight. It took me three or four therapist until I found one that clicked.

Focus on the kids. It might be a good idea to get them into some type of therapy. I learned to be a much better listener to our kids and I learned how to validate their feelings. Our two boys come to me whenever they have a problem. They know I will not fly off the handle and will be steady and consistent.

Document everything you can. How much time you spend with kids, things you do. Times when wife is gone. Make it as easy to understand. You may have to write it over. Keep a journal with everything and make sure it is safe. You can them summarize from that.

Talk to attorneys in your area. Some charge a fee and others give you an hour for free. Ask questions. Seeing several attorneys gives you more time to ask more questions. Also, each attorney you talk to can not be used by your wife. That is a sound legal strategy.

[takingandsending]

Hi jroyal.

I am so sorry for the situation you and your children and wife are going through. It sounds like she suffers from pretty extreme behavior changes and suicidal ideation. Did she ever go into treatment for her BPD?

Read Bill Eddy's book "Splitting", which will give you a lot of good advice on how to prepare for a divorce from a person with BPD/NPD. He also has some good information on how to help your kids, and I totally agree with David - try to get the kids to see a T. They are clearly struggling with mom's dysregulations, and one thing all kids do is they believe that it is about them ... .even when it's not. And take care of yourself, too.

It sounds as if your wife is not currently living with you or the kids. Did I read that right? If so, how are things going for the children? Are they doing a little better or worse with that change?

[JNChell]

Hey there, jroyal. I just wanted to check back in and ask how things are going. Has anything else materialized recently? One thing that I’d like to echo here is therapy for the kids. First and foremost for their mental health, and from what I’ve gathered from reading on this board is that family court judges love therapy. Doing this will display to a judge that you’re doing what is in the best interest for the kids. Be sure to focus on what is best for the kids. Try to find an attorney that is experienced in high conflict divorce cases. Even better is if you can find one that is familiar with BPD. Please post updates. This will help the experts on this board give you the best direction. Hope you’re doing as well as you can be.

[david]

My experiences in family court led me to believe that judges do NOT want to make decisions. They want both parents to come to a decision and they want to sign off on that. The second best course of action is to have a reasonable plan on what you think is best for the kids and is not punitive towards the other parent. If one party has that and the other has nothing things go towards the reasonable plan. The worst option is for the judge to make the decision on their own with nothing but he said/she said. I believe they simply follow the "way things are done" in that jurisdiction.
I also learned that courts must make their decisions based on the evidence presented. Documented evidence that is introduced in court and becomes part of the court record holds more weight than verbal testimony. The downside is it takes time introduce evidence. You need three copies and it has to be agree to by all unless one can prove it true. I once had a pile of homework for two plus years that was about 6 inches tall. The top sheet condensed everything. It showed that ex had majority time during the school year yet the boys did over 95% of their homework when with me. The judge looked at the pile and then saw the top sheet. It was up to ex to agree to the top sheet or we would have to go over each and every piece of evidence. That would have taken lots of time and ticked the judge off. My ex was smart enough to know that so she agreed to the top sheet. That was the only thing introduced as evidence. Judges will not rule against a child's education. That was one of the times I got everything I proposed.
I had times where my entire proposal was copied and pasted to the order exactly as I wrote it. When that happens I can almost guarantee I will be yelled at by the judge for something. The first time that confused me. I came to the conclusion that judges don't want to look like they are taking sides so they give each party something. My ex actually has brought up some of the tongue lashings I got in court in her emails. She used it as proof to justify her allegations against me. I don't reply to such emails. I can't see any upside if I explain that I got everything I requested in court. I now look at it as a good sign when I get yelled at. It happens at the end and not in the middle of the hearing.

[jroyal]

First of all I'd like to thank everyone here for contributing so quickly.

She received short term treatment approx. 3 years ago and it helped, but she discontinued it once things got "better".

Currently the kids live with me in town and on her days off she comes to visit and they stay with her or her mother during that time. The kids are definitely struggling and from what I can gather they are definitely struggling with some aspects of things currently. They do not want to stay at her boyfriends house and feel as though they cannot Express themselves to their mother for fear of backlash and/or just getting ignored. I can go into some of those things further if necessary. They will be starting therapy in the next couple weeks with me, although she is against it. All in all for sometime now even before the split it has mainly been me taking care of them.

I am taking time now to begin documenting as much as possible. Since I alone handle 99% of the childrens needs I am making sure I have paperwork and proof of all that I'm doing. I don't intend do have her removed from their lives and wish nothing more for her to have a real relationship with them and be a good mother, but it seems that she really enjoys this part time thing and is happy with the current set up.

[JNChell]

You’re doing well in documenting. Also, therapy is a good thing. Your wife only coming around when she sees fit can work in your favor as well. If you haven’t read about the tools for communicating with our borderlines, now is a good time to start. It is very important that you don’t provoke her. I know that this may not make sense due to the state of things, but you need to keep her as calm as possible. She can’t do this for herself, so you need to learn the tools on how to keep her from dysregulating. I understand that this stuff is backwards from what a healthy relationship would be, but you have to do this.

Document, therapy for you and the kids, quickly learning on how to communicate with your wife that will cause the least amount of resistance. Learning how to validate her when you don’t want to will help. The goal is to keep her calm while building your case. Does that make sense?

[takingandsending]

There's not much you can do about her time with the kids, re. dislike of staying at her BF's house, unless you can prove it is unsafe for them in some way. But you can validate your kids' experiences and feelings. Good plan to document that doctors, therapy, school appointments and any after school activities that you take the kids to. This should go a long ways toward establishing you as the custodial parent. Then, rather than random I see the kids when I want, you can offer the courts a fair plan of every other weekend plus a single mid week visit sort of schedule, advising that the routine is really needed for your children's sake. Document when she misses her scheduled time. Over time, the court will probably award you full custody.

I think, with their mom's unstable health, that would be the best thing for your children.

[jroyal]

Yes, thanks. I appreciate the advice and having a plan definitely makes the situation a lot less difficult. I will update everyone as things progress and I'm sure I'll come back with some more questions.

[ForeverDad]

I agree that divorce is the practical option now.  You forgave her once but she was unfaithful again, this time with many men.  It reminds me of a post I wrote years ago:

This has been said many times so I don't know if there is an original quote to cite, but I remember from the original Star Trek series the starship Enterprise's engineer Scotty finally exclaimed to those on the Bridge, speaking of the Klingons trying to keep luring the Enterprise away from Captain Kirk and the landing party with a second false distress signal, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

I encourage you to find a counselor for your children, hopefully one who specializes in children.  Beware that your spouse will want one who will agree with her, a gullible counselor.  Be sure to check around and find the best experts available, yet also in-network providers recognized by your health plan.  If you spouse demands to make the decision, then make sure she only gets your vetted short list of Most Excellent professionals.  (If it goes to court, judges will like that you made an effort to grant her some of the selection decision and won't like it if she ignores your input.)

[jroyal]

She is against the counseling for the kids and won't communicate in any fashion with me. Though I still try, because giving up feels wrong and in the back of my mind I know the effort will work in my favor.

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer told me, "Courts love counseling!"  I believe that's near universal in family courts these days.  If she keeps saying no and you keep saying yes, a judge will probably side with counseling.  However, I add my warning again, if she is forced to accept counseling for the kids, she will try to sabotage it.  Either she will try to scare off good counselors or try to get gullible, enabling counselors.

[jroyal]

As of right now we have nothing filed, no custody agreement. Though I have started my end of the process. She doesn't ask what's happening with the kids and makes no effort to be involved, except for the minimum time she spends with them and even then it's based around activities with her boyfriend and his children. So as of right now I am making these decisions without her involved.

[david]

It sounds like she is not calling the kids too often. Make sure to document the times she does call and the length.

If you believe counseling is in the kids best interest then find a counselor even if their mom doesn't agree. She can take you to court about it and she would have to convince the courts it is not in the children's best interest.
 
I have a solid custody order. Once I received a call from the school nurse telling me that our older son was ill. It was exs' custodial time and I did ask the nurse if she called his mom. The nurse said she called several times and left a voicemail. I picked him up and took him to my place. He went to bed. He had some type of virus from the symptoms. I sent an email letting ex know what was going on. She replied by demanding I drive him to her place because it was her custodial time and I was in violation of the court order. I simply repeated what I said in my first email. I spelled out all the symptoms, what transpired etc just like the first email. A while later I received a call from the police wanting to know what was going on. I explained everything to the officer and he understood. He asked me to reach out to ex again so I sent another email letting her know the police called, etc. I received another email from ex. It was cc'd to me but was sent to her attorney. Ex told her attorney I was in violation of the court order and she wanted to take me back to court. I ignored that email. Nothing ever came of it.

I knew the courts would find what I did to be reasonable so I didn't worry about it at all. I also didn't get sucked into the chaos ex was trying to cause. I stated facts and kept her informed. 

[jroyal]

Gotcha.

During my 8-9 days with the children she does not call at all. I ask that she allow them to speak with me once per day and offer her the same. She usually does not comply even if the kids request it. As I stated before even on her time with the children, which is between 5-6 days, she spends nearly half of that without them. Her mom at this stage takes on more of a mother role than she does and if the children are with her she usually allows me to speak to them at least once per day.

I'm wondering if I should still attempt to communicate and inform her regardless of lack of response? It seems that's what you are recommending.

[ForeverDad]

Communication is best kept limited to the parenting and custody aspects only.  In other words, share what you need to but understand that too much can get you bogged down in needless conflict and pointless disputes.

If there are no orders as yet, then court hasn't declared detailed ground rules thus far.  You should be okay with taking them to an excellent counselor.  Often a counselor will want both parents' agreement on counseling.  Can you try to get a few sessions first?  Once a counselor has started a relationship then a court won't be inclined to change it, not wanting to "change what's working" thus far.  Or let the counselor make the polite contact since your ex probably won't listen to you, there's too much past baggage for ex to listen to you.

[david]

Communicating with her about not being able to talk to the kids when they are with her, if you communicate it, needs to be done in a non confrontational way. The wording is important. I was not able to do that in the beginning because it took me a while to figure all the phrases, etc that triggered my ex. I was pretty much triggering her whenever I sent an email. I learned to make my emails as dull as possible and just stated facts. Instead of trying to address it with her you can get your phone bill and it will show the times you called, the times she called, and the length of the calls. The courts would recognize that as valid

[takingandsending]

As I stated before even on her time with the children, which is between 5-6 days, she spends nearly half of that without them. Her mom at this stage takes on more of a mother role than she does and if the children are with her she usually allows me to speak to them at least once per day.

Depending on how the kids feel about their grandmother and spending time with her, another thing you may want to consider when you start to lay out a parent plan is Right of First Refusal (ROFR). If she is leaving the kids with her mom for overnights without being there herself because she wants to be with her BF(s), I would recommend that you would take the kids on those nights per the parent plan ROFR.

It sounds like emotionally you are still grieving the loss of what you had hoped would be your family dynamic, but don't let that hope derail what is best for your kids in the long run. I think I have done that with my two boys. I wrestle daily with whether or not I should try to obtain full custody v. still clinging to hope that the kids can have some type of positive, healthy relationship with their mom. Because of that, I passed on clear opportunities to push for full or at least primary custody of my kids, like when my xw wanted to drive into a brick wall with my oldest son in the back seat because she was having a severe dysregulation. She got reported to CPS for that. I worry that you may be clinging to hope for your wife pulling herself together enough for the kids and may miss how much damage she may/could do to the kids. I know that you see it, but please take the steps to protect your kids. It almost sounds as if she should be on supervised visits until she is in treatment again. What do you think?

You can't mandate she comply with anything as far as treating herself or being a good mom, but you can limit the kids' exposure to her until she does so. Does that make sense?

[jroyal]

Yes it does and I do still cling to that hope heavily. That's part of the perspective i was hoping to get, cause I'm aware that currently mine is skewed and I want to make the right decision for them.

[takingandsending]

It's tough to see clearly when we have been in FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) for so long. Thing is, your kids absolutely need you to be the sole responsible adult with secure healthy attachment for them.

Do you think she is a danger or threat to the kids with her drinking and suicidal ideation? That's the big question. My xw doesn't drink, and she isn't threatening suicide, but she definitely goes off the rails in a big way when she is under stress, as evidenced by hearing a voice telling her to crash the car when she got upset at my oldest son for having a tantrum in the back seat. Of course, she turned right around and said it was my son's anger entering into her, which is the BPD no sense of self/lack of boundaries/projection/blaming thing talking there. Nice that they can't turn that off for their kids' sakes any better than  for their spouse.

Is your wife safe to be around or drive the kids or care for them? What does your gut tell you? Don't rationalize your response, just what's your instinct? I would trust that and take action or resolve around that. I sometimes feel very judgmental and unfair, like how can I decide this - I am biased, but looking back, I wish I had taken more assertive action because I think it would be better for my kids in the long run. You probably have been holding your household together for so long, you may not see just how badly things fall apart without you being there to pick up the pieces. But now that you are living in separate households, the reality is that she will not have you to do that, and your children won't when they are with her.

Tough choices. I am really sorry for what you are going through.

[david]

I had that struggle too. I came to the conclusion that I needed to do what is best for our boys. I realized that if ex and I switched roles I would hope she did what was best for our boys even though I would not be able to see it. If my ex ever got better I would have no difficulty lowering my walls and boundaries. The kids need at least one parent that can give them stability and proper guidance. 
My situation started in 2007. Divorce was finalized 2010. This past mothers day (2018) the boys were with their mom. Their mom started telling them that I was the second biggest distributor of marijuana in the city of philadelphia. She went further by telling them I have a giant weed farm behind my residence in a park. The boys laughed at her and she got angry. She dug her heels in and insisted she was correct. She also claimed that she spoke to my mother about it and that is where she got the information. My mother died years ago so I guess she can talk to the spirits. Ex knows my mother passed away too. I see no reason to lower my walls and boundaries.
I don't like it for our boys but it is what it is. I didn't cause it and I can't fix it. My ex has to figure out how she wants to live. It took me years to get to this point of acceptance.

[david]

I forgot, my mother also had dementia for the last decade so even if she did tell my ex something I don't think you should use it as evidence. My ex is a nurse and should know all this.

[jroyal]

She called for the first time in q long time today. She thought it was the kids first day at school... .it wasn't and the conversation wasn't what I was hoping for. I need to keep stronger boundaries, I always turn into a doormat with her and I need to be able to express them without triggering her.

[jroyal]

I guess she also got kicked out of her house and maybe in risk of losing her job... .stresses me out the thought of her moving back to town. Stresses the kids as well, cause they don't want to have to stay with her at her boyfriends house. They are becoming more and more upset by her actions and the situation.

[david]

It sounds like she is more emotionally volatile than usual. That can be very stressful for everyone involved. My ex was like that in the beginning. I believe she was trying to make sense of all her emotions and trying to find a way to blame it all on someone else, mostly me. It's the black and white thinking. As time passes, I believe, my ex's memories of things "evolved" to protect her self image. The further I stayed away the better. She stays away from most of the people that knew both of us. I learned that some of her friends confronted her and she cut them from her life including some of her immediate family. The construct in her head has to flow properly in her black and white thinking and can't be tested.
Our boys have told me that their mom only speaks of things from about two years after she ran away. It is like nothing happened before that time including her childhood.