I have almost zero percent patience with him

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So... .uBPDh is now out of jail after almost nine months. Has a job, staying in a motel. He got a phone and is now texting and calling every day. I do not have the patience for this level of contact and it is greatly affecting my mood. He wants to talk on the same level that we did previously, and I am not emotionally in a stable enough place to handle this effectively. I have realized that I am going to have to seriously limit our contact if I am going to continue with the healing process.

He is still not allowed to have any contact with s2 according to child services until he passes a drug test. It will be his responsibility to contact his family court lawyer and find out how to go about doing that so he can have visitation. In the meantime he is coming up with all sorts of reasons to try to get me to "help" him which will likely mean that he would get to see s2 even though he is not supposed to. These reasons have included needing money for food, needing his tools for work, needing new shoes for work (I just sent him money for work boots a couple of months ago- now they are too heavy and hurt his feet), needing gloves for work, etc... .I have done my best to come up with ways to get him the items he needs (mainly the tools, they are in my car) without direct contact. When he saw that his excuses were not working out the way he wanted (which was to get me to meet him somewhere and then he could see s2 regardless of the no contact order) he texted me and just plain asked if he could keep s2 while I work tomorrow. I almost lost it on him, but I managed to send a straightforward text reminding him that I explained already that I will not violate the no contact order and put s2 at risk of being taken into state custody. Period. Blah blah hours of him calling me and rambling on about how he's doing better now, he realizes his mistakes, he feels so guilty, etc. etc... .then brought up again about how I could drop the protective order I have on him and he isn't sure it's valid anyway. We have already had that conversation as well. i stated again that it is definitely valid and I will not drop it because it's extra protection for me. He went off on the crazy train, asking me what kind of protection do I have and what kind of protection do I need, it's been nine months with no incidents (of course not, he's been in jail, I mean, what?) and then said he had some guys in jail who knew us and knew our whole situation and is convinced these guys were gang members which means (naturally) that I must be bringing our son around gang members and he is concerned for s2.

I don't even know how or what just happened in that conversation. I am still trying to figure out where that accusation came from and how his thought process wound up there. I mean... .gang members? I don't know any gang members. I don't even know anyone else who was in jail. I think he probably either made up the whole thing, or distorted some type of random conversation with someone to come to this type of conclusion. Either way, he hung up on me. When I blocked his number, he started calling me on messenger,  and wore me down until I answered. we proceeded to get into a circular argument about how he believes the protection order was falsely placed on him and said he denied in court that he hit or pushed me. Now, I know that I know that I know that he did deny at first, but then he did say it was true that it had happened and the judge granted the protetective order. UBPDh has twisted the facts to fit his version of reality, and in his mind he denied it and the judge granted it anyway and it wasn't fair. I caught myself resorting to JADE which made me even more frustrated than I was before and he kept trying to give me advice on letting go of the past and not being frustrated and that made me just want to choke him so I told him either we talk about something else or I'm going to hang up. Spent the next ten minutes rattling on about how he has to convince himself that he can get better, talked about spirituality and Jesus and letting go of anger and how it won't do any good to wonder if I'm cheating on him... .he was all over the place and I just kept quiet because I was really just not up to listening anymore. I was out of mental energy and could not remember a single tool to use from this site and so I said I was tired and going to bed.

I am mentally and emotionally exhausted from this whole series of conversations. I get mad when he downplays what happened, when he blames it on his drug use, when he rewrites history to fit what he wants to believe so he can go into victim mode, when he tries to analyze me and give me advice on how to heal and how to be more spiritually fit and then tells me that he isn't doing that when i know he is... .I am so, so confused and tired and frustrated, and I know that there is probably several things I could be doing differently.

I feel like I rambled in this post, sorry guys. I just don't even know how to process any of this. It's like talking to a bouncing rubber ball that changes emoji faces each time it hits the ground. And I realize I have a lot more anger, bitterness and MUCH less threshold of tolerance for BPD behavior than I thought.

I just needed to tell someone who understands what these type of conversations are like.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

So... .uBPDh is now out of jail after almost nine months. Has a job, staying in a motel. He got a phone and is now texting and calling every day. I do not have the patience for this level of contact and it is greatly affecting my mood. He wants to talk on the same level that we did previously, and I am not emotionally in a stable enough place to handle this effectively. I have realized that I am going to have to seriously limit our contact if I am going to continue with the healing process.

He is still not allowed to have any contact with s2 according to child services until he passes a drug test. It will be his responsibility to contact his family court lawyer and find out how to go about doing that so he can have visitation. In the meantime he is coming up with all sorts of reasons to try to get me to "help" him which will likely mean that he would get to see s2 even though he is not supposed to. These reasons have included needing money for food, needing his tools for work, needing new shoes for work (I just sent him money for work boots a couple of months ago- now they are too heavy and hurt his feet), needing gloves for work, etc... .I have done my best to come up with ways to get him the items he needs (mainly the tools, they are in my car) without direct contact. When he saw that his excuses were not working out the way he wanted (which was to get me to meet him somewhere and then he could see s2 regardless of the no contact order) he texted me and just plain asked if he could keep s2 while I work tomorrow. I almost lost it on him, but I managed to send a straightforward text reminding him that I explained already that I will not violate the no contact order and put s2 at risk of being taken into state custody. Period. Blah blah hours of him calling me and rambling on about how he's doing better now, he realizes his mistakes, he feels so guilty, etc. etc... .then brought up again about how I could drop the protective order I have on him and he isn't sure it's valid anyway. We have already had that conversation as well. i stated again that it is definitely valid and I will not drop it because it's extra protection for me. He went off on the crazy train, asking me what kind of protection do I have and what kind of protection do I need, it's been nine months with no incidents (of course not, he's been in jail, I mean, what?) and then said he had some guys in jail who knew us and knew our whole situation and is convinced these guys were gang members which means (naturally) that I must be bringing our son around gang members and he is concerned for s2.

I don't even know how or what just happened in that conversation. I am still trying to figure out where that accusation came from and how his thought process wound up there. I mean... .gang members? I don't know any gang members. I don't even know anyone else who was in jail. I think he probably either made up the whole thing, or distorted some type of random conversation with someone to come to this type of conclusion. Either way, he hung up on me. When I blocked his number, he started calling me on messenger,  and wore me down until I answered. we proceeded to get into a circular argument about how he believes the protection order was falsely placed on him and said he denied in court that he hit or pushed me. Now, I know that I know that I know that he did deny at first, but then he did say it was true that it had happened and the judge granted the protetective order. UBPDh has twisted the facts to fit his version of reality, and in his mind he denied it and the judge granted it anyway and it wasn't fair. I caught myself resorting to JADE which made me even more frustrated than I was before and he kept trying to give me advice on letting go of the past and not being frustrated and that made me just want to choke him so I told him either we talk about something else or I'm going to hang up. Spent the next ten minutes rattling on about how he has to convince himself that he can get better, talked about spirituality and Jesus and letting go of anger and how it won't do any good to wonder if I'm cheating on him... .he was all over the place and I just kept quiet because I was really just not up to listening anymore. I was out of mental energy and could not remember a single tool to use from this site and so I said I was tired and going to bed.

I am mentally and emotionally exhausted from this whole series of conversations. I get mad when he downplays what happened, when he blames it on his drug use, when he rewrites history to fit what he wants to believe so he can go into victim mode, when he tries to analyze me and give me advice on how to heal and how to be more spiritually fit and then tells me that he isn't doing that when i know he is... .I am so, so confused and tired and frustrated, and I know that there is probably several things I could be doing differently.

I feel like I rambled in this post, sorry guys. I just don't even know how to process any of this. It's like talking to a bouncing rubber ball that changes emoji faces each time it hits the ground. And I realize I have a lot more anger, bitterness and MUCH less threshold of tolerance for BPD behavior than I thought.

I just needed to tell someone who understands what these type of conversations are like.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

He's employed, he has a place to stay and now he's blowing up your phone, wanting things to get back to where they were before he assaulted you and spent 9 months in jail. You're not ready to resume this close contact and you worry that he's trying to bust boundaries regarding the restraining order and seeing your son.

As you try to respond to his various attempts to contact you, he's engaging you in circular arguments and even denying that he assaulted you at all.

You don't need to listen to his ramblings, certainly not for more than a minute or two. Yes, you're exhausted by this. Anyone would be.   

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks Cat,
He resents the restrictions and is trying to find a way around them. He's caught up in suspicious and paranoid thinking and is attempting to draw me closer for reassuring and comfort. I'm not ready for much close contact and also see the potential for vindictive behavior if I don't do what he wants. Proceeding with extreme caution

[Lady Itone]

When I was feeling drained by my exBPDgf and her constant self-induced crises and pleas for help, I started by asking, "Please stop blowing up my phone, I need headspace to concentrate on my own life for a minute." Well, that didn't work.

I decided I would TAKE my space, no more asking. First, I told her I would no longer be reachable via phone or text, and blocked her number. When she continued to contact me via facebook messenger, I told her I would only check and answer messenger once a day, then set her to "ignore." That way I couldn't see her incoming messages until I went into my phone and checked. 

This gave me the peace and quiet I needed in my life. The less I responded to her every word, the less she tried to contact me about every little thing. Eventually, when the relationship deteriorated further, I blocked her on facebook and messenger altogether. Now, she can only contact me via an email address that she knows I only check every couple of days.

If she calls me from a number I don't recognize and I pick up, I get off the phone quickly and politely, then block that number. Then I remind her via email that I am not available for phone calls. I let her email me because otherwise she starts to go nuts and has contacted my mother before. It's taken some time and effort, but I definitely achieved a level of low contact I'm comfortable with.

I wish you luck. I remember feeling just as exhausted and out of patience as you feel, it's no fun. Do what you need to do to get the space you need. Peace.   

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks, LI, I may have to do that. He just texted me a picture of his severe sunburn and said he needs help putting the burn gel on. Think it's a ploy to get me to come to his hotel room and that's a huge red flag for me. Lots of anxiety over this

[Cat Familiar]

He just texted me a picture of his severe sunburn and said he needs help putting the burn gel on. Think it's a ploy to get me to come to his hotel room and that's a huge red flag for me. Lots of anxiety over this

You're reading this correctly.   

And you're feeling anxiety because you have spent a lifetime being helpful and kind and jumping to rescue others. What if you thought about rescuing yourself. You've been through a severe trauma, going through what you've experienced in the last few years, and much of that is due to his behavior. He undoubtedly expects you to rescue him time after time. But what does that teach him when you rescue him from the consequences of his behavior? Or lack of using sunscreen?

You rescue the little things, then they expect you to rescue them from the more consequential things. What kind of relationship do you want with him?

[I Am Redeemed]

You're reading this correctly.   

And you're feeling anxiety because you have spent a lifetime being helpful and kind and jumping to rescue others. What if you thought about rescuing yourself. You've been through a severe trauma, going through what you've experienced in the last few years, and much of that is due to his behavior. He undoubtedly expects you to rescue him time after time. But what does that teach him when you rescue him from the consequences of his behavior? Or lack of using sunscreen?

You rescue the little things, then they expect you to rescue them from the more consequential things. What kind of relationship do you want with him?

I don't want to be the rescuer. Not when I am struggling to find balance in taking care of myself and S2.

I have definitely been through extreme trauma. But once again our conversations focus on him and what he is going through. His guilt, his sorrow, his depression, his needs. Any acknowledgement of my pain or struggle for healing is brief and then back to the competition of whose pain is worse and it's always him.

I expect extinction bursts and I am anxious about that. I have hidden the extent of our contact from most people. There are not many who understand and don't judge me for still maintaining contact

[I Am Redeemed]

He texted me another picture and said he needs my help if I could. It occurred to me that if he can take pictures of it, he can reach it to put gel on it. I almost told him that, but changed my mind and simply said that I am tired and going straight to pick up S2 and going home because I have to work early.
He responded "as you wish" followed by description of how it burns and is gross.

Sigh.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Redeemed, I am so sorry for the stress and pain you are going through. This may very well be a preview of what's ahead for me in the next year, even though jail probably won't be involved.

But the nonstop calling -> blocked calls and claims of change are all too familiar. Told her to stop hitting / stealing / destroying, she said that was in the past (2 weeks ago). Block her on the phone, she posts to my music school's FB page about how we are getting a divorce.

You need to keep doing exactly what you've been doing, say no, block the calls, and batten down the hatches when the extinction burst storm comes. But I won't undermine the safety of you and s2 during this time. Would it be possible to get in touch with the police regarding his recent behavior and see about arranging some protection? I've been away from the US for too many years so not really sure how this works.

I hope you do not judge yourself for maintaining a little contact. He is the father of your children, and the co-parent bond is very difficult to break. I will always love my wife in some way no matter what happens and always care about her. But putting responsibility for his life in his own hands is in some ways the greatest act of love you can do for him.

We are all here for you. You will get through this!

Sending you strength,
~ROE

[Cat Familiar]

I have definitely been through extreme trauma. But once again our conversations focus on him and what he is going through. His guilt, his sorrow, his depression, his needs. Any acknowledgement of my pain or struggle for healing is brief and then back to the competition of whose pain is worse and it's always him.

Yes, the extreme self-centeredness is hard to imagine. And I understand how it feels that people might question that you still have feelings for him. My first husband was repeatedly violent to me, regularly verbally abusive, had multiple affairs, and was financially irresponsible. Yet, I had made a commitment to him and I kept on trying over and over, hoping that he would become a better man.

Well, finally it got to be too much for me and I ended the marriage. Fast forward several years: he got arrested for beating up his next wife; he skipped town prior to his arraignment; he moved across the country to avoid the active arrest warrant. Now years later, I get phone calls from creditors who've researched him online who are trying to track him down for unpaid bills.

Lesson learned: When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks ROE and Cat,

Roe, I do have an order of protection in place that states that he is not allowed to come to my home or my workplace. I chose to leave the option of contact in place, but child services made me sign a safety agreement that says that uBPDh can not have any contact with s2 until he passes a drug test. It's his responsibility to call his lawyer and child services and find out how to go about doing that. He does not like the consequences of his actions. He thinks that it isn't fair, and he goes on and on about how he didn't mean to be that person and do the things that he did and he thinks that being separated from his son is too severe of a consequence. He quotes the Bible. Asked me last night where in the Bible it says that he should be separated from his wife and children . He is constantly pouring on to me the grief and depression he feels, and then tries to use that to manipulate me into violating the no contact order and let him see s2.
No matter how much I explain to him that allowing contact would put s2 at risk for being taken away from me, he continues to try to use FOG to get me to let him see our son. He is putting his own feelings ahead of s2's long term best interests which is the distorted thinking that caused these circumstances to begin with.

Last night I hung up on him and turned the phone off rather than get into a circular argument about people I added onto our Facebook page. Today he blew my phone up and finally said "You win, please let me talk to him." I responded that it wasn't a competition, it was about me preserving my serenity. He asked if I could pick up lunch and bring my car to the shop he works at so he could look over my car and see s2.  I simply responded "no." I am not going to go over the reasons why for the fifty-seventh time.

This is making me frustrated and tired. I am short tempered and irritable and I am afraid it is affecting s2.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you’re letting these conversations go on too long. I like what I hear from others in this position: state your boundary once, at most twice, then be done with the conversation. I know it’s hard but if he realizes that begging, pleading, quoting the Bible, whining cause you to stop listening, he will learn not to do that.

It does him no favors to listen to these endless pleas, and certainly isn’t good for you or your son.

[Fian]

It sounds like you can make things a little clearer to him.  As I understand what you are saying, this is it in a nutshell:

If he wants to see you and your son, he needs to pass a drug test and get the CPS restriction lifted.  Until that is done, you and your son will not see him whether he has a sun burn or an arm missing.

Once that is established, each time he has some excuse to see you, you can respond back, "That would involve seeing you.  Has the CPS order been removed?"  If he lies and says yes, you can respond, ok let me check with CPS and get back to you.

[Woodchuck]

he texted me and just plain asked if he could keep s2 while I work tomorrow. I almost lost it on him, but I managed to send a straightforward text reminding him that I explained already that I will not violate the no contact order and put s2 at risk of being taken into state custody. Period. Blah blah hours of him calling me and rambling on about how he's doing better now, he realizes his mistakes, he feels so guilty, etc. etc... .then brought up again about how I could drop the protective order I have on him and he isn't sure it's valid anyway. We have already had that conversation as well. i stated again that it is definitely valid and I will not drop it because it's extra protection for me. He went off on the crazy train, asking me what kind of protection do I have and what kind of protection do I need, it's been nine months with no incidents (of course not, he's been in jail, I mean, what?) and then said he had some guys in jail who knew us and knew our whole situation and is convinced these guys were gang members which means (naturally) that I must be bringing our son around gang members and he is concerned for s2.

Redeemed-
This sounds like an extremely stressful situation.  It is great that you can stand up to the guilt trips and manipulations.  It is so easy to feel guilty and/or become the rescuer.  I was worn out just reading through the conversation that you had.  I think I would have hung up about halfway through if not sooner out of frustration.  I am wondering if maybe he would have been less triggered if you would have added a validating comment at the beginning about how you understand that it is hard for him to be away from his son etc.   It may not have made any difference or helped at all.  It was just a thought I had and wanted to share it.  I hope that you will find the strength to continue on.  Taking care of a two year and trying to manage a pwBPD/PD is almost like a full time job with no pay.  Hang in there!

Woodchuck

[I Am Redeemed]

Cat, I know I am letting the conversations go on too long. Some of the time we talk about spiritual books we have been reading, and it's almost like talking to a normal person. But he always has a request to see me or s2 and on top of that he insists on calling me at least once an hour. ONCE EVERY HOUR and if I would let him he would stay on the phone with me for most of the day and night. He literally wants to be in contact constantly. Our codependent r/s has conditioned him to expect this. I am getting a crash course in boundaries it seems, and I am fumbling with it a bit but determined to not let him throw me off track and distract me from my goals.
Fian, I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. After reiterating AGAIN today about the CPS order he finally got it that he would have to call and ask them what to do to lift the no contact. He told me he did call and that they had no record of the woman who handled our case (she was in training) and they said that the case had been closed with no services or further actions necessary. I called CPS and asked for the team leader and left a message to have her call me back. I will not take his word for anything and I will assume the no contact is in place until CPS tells me differently. There is not a no contact order between he and I so he assumes that I will come running to his every need even if I don't bring s2 with me.
Woodchuck, I am trying to practice some validation but I have not learned to do it well at all. I let myself focus on what he says that I disagree with instead of validating the underlying feeling. It is so hard not to do that! I have let him talk about how much he misses the kids and I have tried to be encouraging and tell him that God will see him through this. He keeps saying he trusts God and God has a plan and God will provide and God has changed him. Yet he wants instantaneous results. I understand how much it hurts to miss the kids. I still don't have custody of our oldest five! In fact, I haven't been taken off of supervised visits myself with the oldest five for FOUR YEARS now and I even DO anything that CPS says I did. I have been patiently waiting and hoping and praying and struggling to get things in place where we could have the kids back, and then he would inevitably tear down all I had worked to build either through gambling and financial irresponsibility, drug use and/or physical and verbal abuse.
He just called and immediately started in on how it's not fair that he can't see the kids because what happened was NOT HIS FAULT> not his fault, y'all, that he took a dangerous drug that alters his psychological state (not the first time) and induces psychosis (again not the first time!) and proceeded to become so verbally and physically abusive that I could not take one more minute of it. Not his fault. Because he DIDN"T MEAN TO. He didn't want this to happen, so therefore he has decided it was out of his control. Decided that because he had been severely dehydrated and had extreme back and shoulder pain that it wasn't his fault when his best friend from his childhood hometown offered him drugs that he knew he shouldn't take. All the resulting actions were NOT HIS FAULT, because he was laid up on the couch "begging for help."
Now, this was like two minutes into the last phone call. And I lost it. I said it absolutely was his fault, and nobody could have helped him because he wouldn't let anyone get him the help he needed (which was to go to a detox and rehab facility/mental health facility) and I was sick of hearing about how he was such a victim and he interrupted me to say "Bring me a pack of cigarettes. I'm out."

I said "NO" and hung up and turned off the phone. I am ashamed to admit this, but I just took him a pack of cigarettes and a can of dip yesterday (not with s2) so I know that he is at least not out of dip, and I don't care if he is, and I am super, super p'd that he would be so arrogant as to TELL me to bring him cigarettes when I am already highly frustrated AND HE KNOWS I HAVE s2 so he basically is saying that he does not care if there is a no contact order or not and he does not care if s2 gets taken away from me or not as long as he gets his immediate needs me and his uncomfortable feelings soothed NOW.

  I just want to scream.

[Cat Familiar]

Some of the time we talk about spiritual books we have been reading, and it's almost like talking to a normal person.

I totally get how easy it is to get hooked into a conversation when it feels like you're talking to a normal person. And of course, you want to believe that he can be normal--I'm an optimist too.    Then, he shifts gears and asks to see your son.    And then blows up your phone.   

Yes, you're getting a crash course in boundaries, but you're doing well.    It takes practice, for sure, particularly for those of us who've spent a lifetime trying to be nice and helpful.

I can see how difficult it is for you when he won't take responsibility for the consequences of his behavior. And when you challenged his belief in his victimhood, he interrupted you with a request for cigarettes. I can completely understand how infuriating that must have been. And can't he buy his own cigarettes?

So he's willing to put your custody of your son at risk just because he wants to see him? And he hasn't taken steps to do the drug test and lift the court order? He denies that he attacked you, which led to him spending 9 months in jail. And he believes that the reason he can't see his kids is not his fault because he didn't mean to get out of control and violent when he took a dangerous drug.

Hearing all that, what role do you want him to play in your life and your children's lives in the future?


 

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed, 

I just want to send you some encouragement.  I know it’s uncomfortable for you when he asks for something.  I totally get that, as it is something I have worked on.  To stay on our own paths we must become comfortable with the discomfort.  From reading your posts, I think this will be key in your moving forward.  You have to get accustomed to those guilty twinges and learn not to react to them.

How much time and energy do you think you would be able to spare in the way of a phone calls or messages?  That is a good place to start.  You can have a boundary there. 

Of course he would like for you to cater to his wishes, but I don’t think you have time or energy for that.  You have yourself and your son to take care of.  Taking care of your child is helping him whether he acknowledges it or not.  So just remind yourself of that.

I just applaud you.  You are courageous.  You bravery is a big asset to you and your son.  You have been the hero of your story so far.  Keep up the good work. 

I said a prayer for you today.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

[formflier]

Hey... .I know this is a difficult and emotional time.

Complete clarity:  It's not about what he sends... .it's about you listening.

He is disordered and is doing what he does.  No shock there.  Can you leave your phone off or block the number except when YOU have a reason to contact him?

It's up to YOU to set the boundaries... .

 

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,
/s
I have started just turning the phone off. I can't stand to hear the incessant buzzing of call after call and message after message. I tried blocking, but then he called on messenger. I know there is a way to block that too but I haven't figured it out yet. I am not the most proficient user of technology  . I prefer blocking because I don't receive all the messages, because if I turn my phone off then I have 57 messages when I turn it on.

I am breaking out of my seven-year pattern of jumping to answer his calls and texts within so many minutes. He used to dysregulate so badly if he didn't get an answer from me immediately, and he had to know where I was and what I was doing all the time. I also over the course of our r/s allowed him to run me to death with "errands" that he should have been handling himself. It was not uncommon for him to call me to bring him something to work two or three times a day, three or more times a week. Money for a drink, a tool he forgot, cigarettes he left... .the list goes on and on and he would dysregulate so badly if i didn't do what he asked that I complied with every request to keep the peace (which was always short-lived anyway. ) Now, I have a solid foundation from posting on these boards since Jan and I know that I don't have to do things for him that he should be doing for himself, and I don't have to listen to his crap, and I don't have to let him into my space (mentally) if I choose not to.

It's still hard.

[Cat Familiar]

I am breaking out of my seven-year pattern of jumping to answer his calls and texts within so many minutes.

Good work!   

He used to dysregulate so badly if he didn't get an answer from me immediately, and he had to know where I was and what I was doing all the time.

Yes, it becomes a rather effective way of maintaining control. If it no longer works, then it will be abandoned as a strategy.

I also over the course of our r/s allowed him to run me to death with "errands" that he should have been handling himself.

It's so easy to get into these patterns. We can start off wanting to be nice and helpful. Then it becomes an obligation. Then it can become frightening if we don't comply with the demand on their timetable. And as you've discovered, keeping the peace was a fragile endeavor anyway.

Now, I have a solid foundation from posting on these boards since Jan and I know that I don't have to do things for him that he should be doing for himself, and I don't have to listen to his crap, and I don't have to let him into my space (mentally) if I choose not to.

It's still hard.

   You're making good progress and you sound strong and committed to making your life better. It is hard to break these old patterns that have been with us for years, maybe for a lifetime. But what is good motivation is knowing that we have to stand strong and not bend (and create intermittent reinforcement)--otherwise our efforts are for naught. When we start noticing changing patterns after we've changed, it feels really good to be free from being stuck in a servant role to our BPD loved ones in an effort to keep the peace.

[formflier]

   

I'm so proud of you for turning off the phone!

Listen... .I'm going to push you a bit further.

When you turn on the phone and there are 57 messages... .do you think you can delete them quickly... without reading/understanding them?

Is there someone that can help you... that would scroll through them so that if something actually important was in there... .it could be saved.

How does that idea sit with you?

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Redeemed, 

I just want to send you some encouragement.  I know it’s uncomfortable for you when he asks for something.  I totally get that, as it is something I have worked on.  To stay on our own paths we must become comfortable with the discomfort.  From reading your posts, I think this will be key in your moving forward.  You have to get accustomed to those guilty twinges and learn not to react to them.

How much time and energy do you think you would be able to spare in the way of a phone calls or messages?  That is a good place to start.  You can have a boundary there. 

Of course he would like for you to cater to his wishes, but I don’t think you have time or energy for that.  You have yourself and your son to take care of.  Taking care of your child is helping him whether he acknowledges it or not.  So just remind yourself of that.

I just applaud you.  You are courageous.  You bravery is a big asset to you and your son.  You have been the hero of your story so far.  Keep up the good work. 

I said a prayer for you today.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

Thanks Mustbe!

I definitely don't have the time or energy for that. He is desperately trying to get things as close as possible back to where they were before, as a comfort measure I'm sure, and all the while he denies that he is trying to push me back into a close r/s with him.

He wants us to participate in a marriage bible study with a couple from his church. I'm sure these are very nice people who help average couples through conflict using biblical principles, but I doubt seriously they are trained to help high conflict couples who have faced issues such as substance abuse, BPD, and domestic violence. Especially because he said he would not disclose what happened, only tell them where we are now, which is separated. I don't think a marriage bible study under less than honest conditions would gain us anything. Also, he is not receiving any type of counseling on his own. He seems to think going to church and reading the bible has changed him. Now, I am not one to say that God alone does not have the power to heal. He absolutely does, but I seriously doubt that forty years of dysfunctional behavior and distorted thinking has changed significantly just because he studied the Bible for nine months in jail. 

FF, normally I just scan through the messages and do not respond to any dysregulated ones. I may not respond to any of them. His pattern is to repeatedly attempt contact, dysregulate, explain /apologize, then text about something normal and pretend none of the previous texts happened, then possibly use some type of "emergency" to get a response. After I hung up and left the phone off all night a couple days ago, his "emergency" was that his mother was going to have to take her great-grandchild to the doctor in Memphis (the baby was born addicted to meth. She has custody, and the baby has lots of issues, most recently that he is passing blood in his stool.) He followed that text with "Help her please." So I simply called my MIL and she said she was waiting for the doctor to call and tell her when the first available appointment was. It was not an emergency. He made it sound like she was hopping the first ambulance out there.

He called his mother while I was on the phone with her, just to see if she had talked to me. He's driving her crazy too.

He wants me to be affectionate and have intimate contact with him which is something I absolutely cannot even think about right now. I'm sure he sees it as signs of rejection and abandonment, but I just don't really care. I'm sick of worrying about his emotional state. For years I have neglected my own because his needs were larger than life, and I am going to do what I need to do to heal whether he likes it or not. Period.

He says he feels like he is losing his soul mate. He asked didn't I feel like that too.

I said I felt like mine had been gone for years. I don't think he heard my response, because he was already on to the next sentence about how hurt he is.

Thanks everyone for being here. I don't know if I could do any of this without support from you guys!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[empath]

I doubt seriously they are trained to help high conflict couples who have faced issues such as substance abuse, BPD, and domestic violence. Especially because he said he would not disclose what happened, only tell them where we are now, which is separated. I don't think a marriage bible study under less than honest conditions would gain us anything.

Marriage bible study is a woefully inadequate way to address the issues in many of our marriages here. He probably wouldn't even disclose the protection order which is part of where you are now. One of the central tenants of the Bible is that we have to be honest about where we are and how we got there (honest about our sinful thoughts, words, and actions)... .  and be willing to turn from them and make amends.

For years I have neglected my own because his needs were larger than life, and I am going to do what I need to do to heal whether he likes it or not. Period.

Go for it!

I'm praying for you, too.

[RolandOfEld]

He says he feels like he is losing his soul mate. He asked didn't I feel like that too.

This weekend I had a rarely lucid "heart to heart" with uBPDw, where she even showed empathy and talked about how optimistic she was about her own recovery. I'll admit I was moved deeply and have given consideration to trying to stick it out with her.

I do love my wife, and there is nothing wrong with that. And I can see you do on some level still love your husband, Redeemed, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

But then I realized that I cannot think emotionally when making plans about the situation. I have to go into pure rationality and think about what's best for everyone, especially the children. I think you are doing an awesome job at this and I am inspired.

~ROE

[I Am Redeemed]

Marriage bible study is a woefully inadequate way to address the issues in many of our marriages here. He probably wouldn't even disclose the protection order which is part of where you are now. One of the central tenants of the Bible is that we have to be honest about where we are and how we got there (honest about our sinful thoughts, words, and actions)... .  and be willing to turn from them and make amends.

Go for it!

I'm praying for you, too.

Yes, I agree. There is no way to work through all the issues that surround this r/s without disclosing or discussing the past. Also I know he has a habit of painting things the way he wants other people to see them; i.e., downplaying the severity of what actually happened (generalizing that he messed up, went to jail, but not giving the back story of the OTHER times this pretty much exact same thing happened) and throwing a lot of the responsibility for our separation onto me (well look guys, I know I made a mistake and I'm sorry for it and I'm trying to get better but she is holding onto a lot of resentment that she can't get past) and I don't think any type of marriage counseling period would help without him getting individual treatment of some sort.

This weekend I had a rarely lucid "heart to heart" with uBPDw, where she even showed empathy and talked about how optimistic she was about her own recovery. I'll admit I was moved deeply and have given consideration to trying to stick it out with her.

I do love my wife, and there is nothing wrong with that. And I can see you do on some level still love your husband, Redeemed, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

But then I realized that I cannot think emotionally when making plans about the situation. I have to go into pure rationality and think about what's best for everyone, especially the children. I think you are doing an awesome job at this and I am inspired.

~ROE

It's really hard, ROE, and I think the only reason I am holding to my guns this time is because I allowed emotions to make decisions for me so many times before. I gave him chance after chance and tried to believe that he would get better but he never stuck with any type of counseling or treatment long enough to make any progress. I kept hoping for a miracle, and in the process of trying to save him I kept myself from getting custody of my kids back. Five years I have been separated from them, and five years I tried to steer him towards the right treatment so our family could safely be together. None of my efforts worked and I feel as though I have wasted enough time focusing on "helping" him get it together so he can have his children. I will not make the mistake again of prolonging the separation from my children because I am trying to save him.

He actually suggested we move back in together. I told him that wasn't going to happen. I can't believe he even thought it would be a possibility. There is no way I will get to have my kids come overnight to stay with me if I move back in with him, not to mention that I in no way feel that it would be safe for me or S2. That just showed me how out of touch with reality he is. He doesn't grasp the concept of why that would not be a wise choice for me.

Today he texted me and said he forgot to make his lunch because he stayed up watching Drive Thru History on TBN. Asked me if I could help. This first of all makes me frustrated. Then I feel the slight pull of the instinct to help because I don't like to think about people going hungry. Then I think, this is exactly what I used to do all the time and it only reinforced the likelihood that it will happen again. And it's not my problem to solve. And it doesn't teach him that he should be more responsible if he wants to have lunch for work. Then I think "am I being hard-hearted about this?" People do forget stuff. But it would only make it more likely that he will expect me to do more stuff like that. I already gave him money to do laundry twice this week, with a little
extra to get food if he needs it. Feel like I shouldn't have done that. I swing back and forth between what is legitimate compassion and kindness and help and what is care-taking that I shouldn't be doing.

Also feel like maybe some legitimate help that I would do for someone else out of kindness can't be afforded in this situation sometimes, given the way he tends to suck all the life and energy out of me from his constant neediness.

still trying to navigate this "new me" and it's a little murky, but I think it helps to sort some of it out by posting. Even it doesn't come out as organized as I want it to sound.

Thanks for your help everybody 

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

You've got many years of history to draw from and you see how impossible it would be to make any progress in a faith based counseling environment when he deems certain parts of your past off limits. And for him to paint you as the obstacle holding back improvement due to resentment of his behavior in the past--well, that's certainly not what you want to deal with. 

Previously your empathy and sympathy allowed you to give him many "second chances" but now you're noting that those chances didn't generate any improvement because he bailed out of counseling and treatment programs. And by extending him so much grace, you shot yourself in the foot about getting custody back of your children.

He seems to think that things will go back to where they used to be, with you living with him, but you realize how vulnerable that would make you and your youngest child.

In the meantime, he expects you to pick up his slack about things he forgets and it's frustrating because you're aware of that pattern reemerging. You want to be kind and helpful, but at the same time, you want him to learn to be responsible for himself.

It's a challenge to think this way because it goes against your patterning. I completely understand because I had been trained by my upbringing to be kind and helpful and it was totally part of my self-concept. Also my BPD mother used to accuse me of being selfish if I didn't do what she asked. So I was very prone to being manipulated by others if they questioned whether I was being unhelpful or selfish.

Once I realized that, I was OK with other people thinking poorly of me because I knew in my heart that I have good intentions and I don't want to hurt others. Also it became very obvious that they were manipulating me and that didn't sit well.

Now I do what I want and am helpful when I want, rather than as a reflex response and as a result, I no longer feel resentful or taken advantage of.

[I Am Redeemed]

You've got many years of history to draw from and you see how impossible it would be to make any progress in a faith based counseling environment when he deems certain parts of your past off limits. And for him to paint you as the obstacle holding back improvement due to resentment of his behavior in the past--well, that's certainly not what you want to deal with. 

Previously your empathy and sympathy allowed you to give him many "second chances" but now you're noting that those chances didn't generate any improvement because he bailed out of counseling and treatment programs. And by extending him so much grace, you shot yourself in the foot about getting custody back of your children.

He seems to think that things will go back to where they used to be, with you living with him, but you realize how vulnerable that would make you and your youngest child.

In the meantime, he expects you to pick up his slack about things he forgets and it's frustrating because you're aware of that pattern reemerging. You want to be kind and helpful, but at the same time, you want him to learn to be responsible for himself.

It's a challenge to think this way because it goes against your patterning. I completely understand because I had been trained by my upbringing to be kind and helpful and it was totally part of my self-concept. Also my BPD mother used to accuse me of being selfish if I didn't do what she asked. So I was very prone to being manipulated by others if they questioned whether I was being unhelpful or selfish.

Once I realized that, I was OK with other people thinking poorly of me because I knew in my heart that I have good intentions and I don't want to hurt others. Also it became very obvious that they were manipulating me and that didn't sit well.

Now I do what I want and am helpful when I want, rather than as a reflex response and as a result, I no longer feel resentful or taken advantage of.

You are spot on Cat! I have heard so many times from him about how I was "selfish" or "not showing care and concern" that now this repeats in my own thoughts without even being said to me and I have to tell that voice to shut up. I have also found that if I refuse or ignore one request for help (i.e., the plea to bring him lunch which later turned in to lunch+energy drink, and I did not respond even though I received twenty phone calls and countless texts) then another more heart-string-pulling request will replace the first (wanting me to come by so he can check all the fluids in my car for me and please, please let him see s2). I am still on the fence about the visiting thing. He claims he called CPS and spoke to the actual case worker who was assigned to my case when I made the report (not the girl who actually did all the interviewing and drug testing and paperwork... .and threatening me... .and showing up at my job demanding to know my schedule... .that girl was in training and has apparently been employed in another office elsewhere) and the case worker said that there was nothing on file for my case regarding s2 that says he can't have contact. I have tried to call the case worker myself and have not gotten through, nor has she returned my messages. So I kind of feel like he may be telling the truth, and I kind of feel like he may not be, but I don't know what to do because I can't make contact with the case worker to confirm one way or another. I do know how this department works, and it would not surprise me at all if there really were no restrictions, and that girl in training was just using our case to practice her "bulldog tactics"- which would kind of irk me really, because she caused a lot of stress to me and basically threatened to take s2 if I did not sign the safety agreement and get the protective order- but it would definitely not surprise me to find out that all that was not as serious as she made it sound and there really was nothing in the file at all. The case report that went on file in the courts regarding the circumstances surrounding the removal of our other children was chock full of incorrect statements and blatant non-truths. But I don't want to take a chance on CPS getting involved again in the future without me having something in writing from the department stating what if any limitations there are on visitation between uBPDh and s2. And if there aren't, then that means it will be up to my discretion when, where and how often he sees him- and I do not look forward to that ball game. 

I am feeling pressure in other areas as well. I have yet to find a suitable home for me and s2 and I really need to, because I need the extra room to be able to go to court to get overnight visits with my kids. Also my current roommate is pregnant again, so she will definitely need the extra space. I can't afford much, and I have a huge back payment due to the utility company here so I will probably have to find something a little further out in a surrounding county. Also I am starting back to school next week, I can't file my financial aid until I get my 2016 tax info for the FAFSA and I am having trouble doing that. I have two kids birthdays coming up, my sister wants me to help them get their piano tuned so D11 can learn piano, and on top of that I am behind in my own child support. Some of it goes to the state, but some of it is back child support the court awarded to my sister for the eight months she had Dalmost-10 and D11 before getting guardianship. Today she proposed that I use my share of the inheritance from my mother (it's not a lot) to pay the back child support to her.  I am super stressed and trying NOT to be stressed, and trying to trust God and not worry because I want to have faith and not fear... .but it's hard and it takes mental energy to work through the anxiety every time it wells up. And I'm tired. And I feel like there's always someone who has something they want me to do... .I don't mind if it's for my kids. I will do anything for them. But I also have a job where I meet people's needs all day (I wait tables) and so I just get tired of caring sometimes what other people need. I try not to let my attitude get sour, because negative thoughts produce a negative mood, and that spills out onto others when I don't mean for it to do so.

Also a bad attitude doesn't generate many good tips... .

I am trying to "stay in today" and not look too far ahead. It's good to make plans, but I can make worries as well if I focus on things I can't do anything about today.

Therapist cancelled today, and I haven't been in over a month. Had to reschedule again. Hopefully I can get a couple of appointments close together, because I am seeing signs of depression crop up and I have to deal with those before they get too bad. It's easier to stop yourself from sliding into the pit than it is to crawl out once you've fallen in.

Thanks again for listening to me ramble everyone 

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

It must be frustrating not knowing one way or another about whether CPS is still actively restricting him from visiting your son, since they're not returning your phone calls. And once that restriction is lifted, you don't have them as an excuse for not being around him with your child.

You've got a lot on your plate with needing to find a larger place and starting school, in addition to financial burdens coming soon. Fortunately you don't have all this happening at once.

I've waited tables too and sometimes you definitely have to be a good actress since you're not feeling it. Considering all that you're juggling, it sounds like you're holding up well.    It will be good to get some support in therapy when you can, but you're doing a good job and keeping in good spirits.  

Cat

[formflier]

There is an option on the FAFSA to use "estimated" information.

You can come back later and import the real data, when you get access to it.

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF that's awesome  I have a copy of my w2 so maybe I can use that and go ahead and do it. Waiting for a copy of my tax return to be emailed, then I can forward it to the financial aid office. Yay!

Redeemed