Well that was a kick in the face

[Shawnlam]

I spoke with my therapist today he suggested the following what do you guys/girls think ? He suggests to no longer rehash my feelings of what she said been there done that .He said write down three questions and only three questions that you want to ask her.Also write three comments about you (one being what you think of her ,not what you think of her about what she did ) actually write what you see positive in her.Also keep the other two comments about yourself purely not you trying to sell yourself .Ask her permission to say all the questions and comments then back off ,stop talking and listen to her and say no more unless she asks you something. What do you think? I’ve already written the questions and comments  is like to say.He said make sure your questions answer your doubts on this subject because if you do get the good answers your hoping this episode needs to be placed behind you and if you don’t then you will already have your answer to what I need to do.

[Skip]

I like your guy.

I think he is saying to get the most important facts straight (e.g., is she seeing him, dating him) and forget the rest. Which is good advice.

This will work for tangible questions, but probably not for intangible questions as you already know (are you still in love with him, is there any chance you will reconnect, do you want to spend your life with me, etc.).

My suggestion might still be to do this after spending some quality time.  The defense walls are already up on both sides... .it's tense. De-escalating would be good.

I like Wickerman's idea's. Don't shoot the gun. Lay low.

Anyway, that is for you to decide... .

What are the questions?

[Wicker Man]

He suggests to no longer rehash my feelings of what she said been there done that.

Yes -you have this well covered.   If you keep up a rumination cycle you will spiral into it and lose sight of the bigger picture.

He said write down three questions and only three questions that you want to ask her... ... ..if you do get the good answers your hoping this episode needs to be placed behind you and if you don’t then you will already have your answer to what I need to do.

This is good advice.  Eventually you will have to have a heart to heart and have these burning questions answered -but is there a reason for the urgency?  Putting an expiration date on this conversation adds weight to it and that is the last thing you need.  Think lightness.

In other words why would you go into your next meeting with her ready to end your relationship?  Is that necessary?  It strikes me both of you need time to process.

Take Skip's advice of 'Lay low' in other words be cool... .Take this from me -a 'coping model' who could not follow his own advice last May.  I now have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

There is no reason to make this next meeting a 'Go no Go'.  First and foremost you both need to figure out if you still enjoy each other's company --build a new foundation.  If you both are of the same mind the other guy thing may solve itself.

If I were you I would take a deep breath --No... .I mean literally every time you think about her take a deep breath.  You are likely fighting diffuse physiological arousal and deep breathing will help.  Figuratively you also need time to breath.



Wicker Man

[braveSun]

I tend to agree with everything that has been said so far. I also see that from my own limited experience, these situations tends to wear on us in a way we don't suspect. They catch us off balance. It's way too easy to get carried away with looping negative thinking. Our brains can go to catastrophizing without us even noticing. Deep breathing is a good technique to slow down this automatic nervous system process. There are many things you can do to help yourself come back to a normal arousal state.

Planning a light weight activity with her than might be easier to reach because some of the loaded feelings might have less of a grip on you.

Generally speaking, I'd definitely amp up my own self-care for the duration of all of this period. Doing some good things for yourself. Sleep is number one. Eating nutritious meals. Deep breathing is great when the arousal comes on short notice. Exercising. Being in nature. Letting off the steam a bit. Once you have your own questions laid out, get off the high anxiety rolls as much as you can, than revisit the questions.

You have time Shawnlam. There is enough time to take good care of yourself now.

This very moment is important.
 


What are some activities you see would fit the bill for your self-care?

Brave

[Shawnlam]

I’ll post the three questions and comments but already my questions are wrong so I’ll have to redo them.The therapist told me to ask the questions that will resolve your insecurity and when answered accept it and move on good or bad no open ended left to be figured out questions because it will never end and you will never stop the hampster upstairs . Also she texted me at lunch telling me she’s sorry and never wanted to jeapordize us by being honest although she said she knows I appreciate the honesty.She just said no matter what happens she wanted me to know this and she feels bad.I told her it’s ok I understand and you did the right thing it just took me off guard I’m ok .She said she wanted me to understand why she still feels and acts hurt from her past.Ill try copying and pasting my theee questions and comments .Also she told me Wednesday was best because it’s her time without the kids that we can have for us and that we will be emotionally better in three days and also she will have answers no questions for me .Not sure if that made sense ,technically we called the meeting before I talked on here otherwise I’d probably have waited although my mindframe is to get this over with and hers to.If she still has doubts about her ex being what she wants I’m gonna bail for sure just not in a$&hole form ,in a hug and kiss I will miss you and love you way .


Question 1: like you said you are not over the BS that happened I understand that now. When you say you are not over this does it mean : In  a unfinished business way where you need to close that door properly by talking to him ,house stuff,in a polite kind  happy ending fashion  ? etc.OR unfinished business ,you still have feelings for him and he has them for you and you have a slight (what if he gets better chance ) in your mind that’s unresolved and concerning you or you are unsure?

Question 2: if you do manage to close the door with xxxx in a sense the past is the past and the issues at hand are handled , by keeping in touch and  you see he gets better ,since you loved him the most ,even if you love me your doubts and mind will not be on our life but more the what if? Do you agree?

Question 3: You are in love with me and want to continue with me ,so I ask in what fashion? In a let’s start our lives now together because we are in love and want to be together as a couple (that’s also if and when you can or will get through this hurdle with your past depending on the answers for questions 1&2) . OR  you want me in your life and even if you love me , you see me more as friend and someone you can trust and rely and respects you as you’ve told me,but not as a family /partner ? OR you are unsure right now ?

Three comments /statements about me and what I see for me with you and how I see myself so this isn’t me trying to sell myself to you.

1: over time I’ve come to respect myself more and more because as I meet more and more people I realize I’m not a bad person.I have value ,nothing special but something to offer someone who wants it and I think I’m worth someone who wants me for my good and bad traits ,my looks good and bad,and my habits good and bad.
2:When it comes to you ,it’s similar to your comment on your ex except in present time.I won’t say I loved you the most ,I will say that I love you the most ,more than any woman I’ve had in my life .When I look at you and your family of three, I see a spot I’d like to fill for the long term without doubts but sadly that’s not only my choice.
3: I want you to know that although I appear many times as weak emotionally because I show you a lot on how much you mean to me ,don’t be fooled into thinking my compassion is weakness.I show you this side because I love you,and I try to show this to you without the neediness part because I’m looking for and see my equal in you ,it’s a form of respect .BUT I’ve been through and seen things in my life as fcccxed up as it was ,that I hope never ever you or your boys ever have to see and if I’m still in your life then  I’ll do everything to prevent them from seeing those things.But with that said here I am aren’t I?  ,still standing ,working,healthy,and capable of love even still after all that.What this means ,it means I’m stronger than you might give me credit for I don’t know, I can take massive amounts of pain and loss I’ve had to do it before don’t let my tears fool you.So nows the time to let me have the truth because we can’t keep doing this .If what you have to say may break my heart then so be it I will live and I will take it ,my body is full of scars heart and all,hell you’ve seen most of them yourself I just hide the scars on my heart better.

That’s all

[Skip]

I think simple is best... .

He said write down three questions and only three questions that you want to ask her.

Examples:

1. Has he asked you to get back together? If yes, what did you say in response?

2. How many times have you seen each other? Where did you go? Sexual?

3. How did you describe your feelings about him and about me to your therapist?

Also write three comments about you (one being what you think of her ,not what you think of her about what she did ) actually write what you see positive in her.

Examples:

1. When I look at you and your family of three, I see a spot I’d like to fill for the long term without doubts but sadly that’s not only my choice.

2. Love and respect are the two things I value most in a relationship. Sometimes I fall short. I know my partner will too. It's important to me that in a relationships we are reaching to be better at this, together.

3. I struggle with the baby and how such an important thing came at a time when you and I were struggling to connect.

[Wicker Man]

... .although my mindframe is to get this over with... . ... .If she still has doubts about her ex being what she wants I’m gonna bail for sure... .

Something I am working on in therapy is to stop communicating in a codependent and enabling manner... . So I am going to try to communicate in a more direct manner --here goes:

In my opinion going into your next meeting with a big head of steam will all but ensure dissolution of your relationship.

Presuming she suffers from BPD a lot patients and understanding will be required from you as you move forward in your relationship.  This is only the beginning and ultimately a small bump in the road.  Try to see it as such.

Best of luck with this -I am sorry you are in so much pain.


Wicker Man

[Shawnlam]

Skip wicker thanks for the input .On the question thing I’ll be honest you’d be surprised to know I don’t really care if they saw each other lately (she said totally plutonic ).My main concern is going forward me and my therapist have come to the conclusion,trying to figure out what’s done is not a good thing for my busy bee mind.Instead if I go simple would these work.

1: do you still have feelings for him  ( I guess any answer of  yes /no/maybe would be enough for me )

2: by keeping him in your life ,is it to see if something comes back emotionally? ( I guess yes no maybe would also be enough )

3: Obviously depending on answers 1&2. 3: am I what you are looking for as a long term type of person you want .


For comments I have to keep them exclusively about me and my character type without bringing in examples of “us” .I asked why to the therapist he said : it’s to bring out something she may be overlooking on you good or bad .She may hear the comments and it will help her to frame her on perception of you .Saying something like you are worth being appreciated for who you are may tell someone In an emotional state that her tagging you along if that’s what she’s doing is wrong to herself .By doing it this way you’ve said nothing to her she came up with it by herself just by hearing you comment on yourself .He has a strange way of getting people to pull data out of their mind through speaking on a completely different topic.He has experience with complex b’s and his not so much reverse psychology but unique psychology has its effects.Same goes with telling her it’s ok to tell you the worst news simply by telling her about you being strong charactered enough to be able to hear it

[Shawnlam]

Oh and Sorry wicker I forgot : If let’s say I simplified my questions to what’s written in above post and she answered yes to having feelings for him or yes she wants to keep him in her life to see if he changes , those answers would end the relationship for me.Two ways this can be seen as I had this talk with my therapist  1: weak and running away driving her into his arms but I’m the longer  run you getting out of the toxic relationship even if it hurts for months years  2: you are the stronger one emotionally and pulling away allows her to go back to him which is she answered yes above would be what she wants .All in all water seeks its own level so two broken people would unite and the stronger one walks away with more knowledge but heartbreak that will heal and a better shield for the future .As I look at it ,seeing it as number 2 obviously has the more appealing outlook

[pearlsw]

Hi Shawnlam, 

Just a quick pop in to say I am so impressed with the work you are doing here. I am grateful that you, and those assisting on the thread, are sharing this process with us. It is a privilege to get to learn from your experiences and for us all to have a chance to learn more about better communication!

I wish you all the best this week!   

take care, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

Two ways this can be seen as I had this talk with my therapist:

I should think, since we find ourselves having this conversation on the 'Bettering a Relationship board', a third alternative outcome should be considered.

3. The two of you find a way to begin a healthy relationship.

This would be the hard road with no instant resolution. 

From my limited experience the fact your girlfriend was honest and up front with you about this other guy speaks volumes.  It seems it can be very difficult for someone suffering from BPD to be honest about relationship issues. 

Mine had at least two ex boyfriends in her orbit during my tenure and believe it or not this was not an issue of me --she had enormous shame about it.

I looked at our relationship as a long game.  I attributed this continued communication with her ex boyfriends as a bad habit and one which could be curbed.   I felt by being supportive she would eventually let them go.

Our relationship didn't work out -but it was not over this issue. 


Wicker Man

[Skip]

she answered yes to having feelings for him or yes she wants to keep him in her life to see if he changes... .

"Feeling" questions my not be real helpful when things are conflicted... .

1. Does she know the answer... .I think probably not.

2. Is it a reliable answer - this all sounds impulsive.

3. Could she look you in the eye and give you the bad news... .that's a tall order for anyone.

Where as if you ask them if they have talked about possibly reconciling... .it's tangible and you can extrapolate the answer.

In the broader picture, I'm with wickerman when he says it probably not a good time to try to "close the deal". There is woundedness going into the conversation last week and there is woundedness from the conversation... .recovering from that might be the best first step.

[Shawnlam]

Well I received a storm of information in this fashion I’ll comment what’s going on in my mind after on a second post:

So she explained to me she never got closure from the nightmare of a relationship she had with him.She said she still has feelings for him but no where near the feelings she has for me.She said her feelings were more I hope you do well take care of yourself VS with me it’s I love you .She said there is something about his personality that she has a hard time letting go because he’s so broken ,damaged and sad as a human being it’s pitiful in ways but draws her attention. She said if she would have been single this past year who knows if she would have folded to his crap again.Again she said they can’t ever reconnect again like they had ,and purely it’s more ( I hope you do better and grow like she has grown ) connection .
She said she will never let him control her life now or in the future and she hasn’t changed want she wants for her and her kids .All in all she just wanted me to know all this it may explain why things have been ruff with us in the past , and a little bit tuff now but better .She thought she would never be able to have a normal relationship with anyone after him (not because it’s me), because you has a hard time trusting men because of what happened and that it explains her today. Then 24 hrs later she said please keep this stuff secret and also she said she feels annoyed with herself now .

Comments from me to follow

[Shawnlam]

Ok my comments or feelings :

1: exhausted , every time things go well tada it explodes

2: not sure this is the only issue ,she was doing well and this happened but in the past it was other stuff.I believe every new deregulated emotional event requires and explanation this time it seems to be this as the cause (but I’m not a psychiatrist so I don’t know)

3: when she’s in a good high life’s perfect and marriage , life is the future ,when she’s down life’s garbage she hates herself and goes back to things that went wrong to blame for present feelings .

4: exhausted  , I’m so tired even with my life going on the side keeping me busy , it’s becomes so very tiring

5: unfortunately I still am in love with her ,was hoping this would subside when these events happen but sadly my love maintains its intensity regardless.

6: I don’t care much about her ex ,I don’t see him as a threat even though I feel foolish sometimes being in the loop like a bad B movie teen drama .Ive always prided myself on being little to no drama ,even my parents told me I hated drama as a child and was a fair time a loner just because of this

7: my personal belief is she is trama bonded to this person .Together they were a whirlwind of emotion like that cartoon Tasmanian devil whirlwind both felt comfortable yet chaotic with that lifestyle and now she feels empty and unloved (even though she’s receiving normal love now ) it’s probably boring and unsatisfactory for her.

8: she has her own knight in shining armor savior behavior going on with him.Because her life is so f... .Ed up and her self image/worth/esteem is low to none so she feels good about herself when surrounded by worse and feels even better when helping him (about herself not really about him).She often told me I have nothing to fix so she has trouble bonding with me .

9:I’m so very tired ,tired tired tired.

[Skip]

How do you feel about the way your reacted and handled this situation?

[pearlsw]

Ok my comments or feelings :
8: she has her own knight in shining armor savior behavior going on with him.Because her life is so f... .Ed up and her self image/worth/esteem is low to none so she feels good about herself when surrounded by worse and feels even better when helping him (about herself not really about him).She often told me I have nothing to fix so she has trouble bonding with me .

9:I’m so very tired ,tired tired tired.

Hi Shawnlam,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think you are right, she may feel more comfortable with him in a way because he is either "as messed up as" or more than her.

You mention in many of the items on this list you being exhausted. What do you typically do to recharge yourself? What can you do in the next few days to bring some happiness, laughter, or fun, and maybe a little distance from this, into your life?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Shawnlam]

How do you feel about the way your reacted and handled this situation?

Actually I have yet to react to be honest , I did it on purpose not to while my emotions are high.I told her “ hey baby I’m sorry you are going through this it’s tuff, I’m here if you need me”.I got a heart back so I’ve boughtbtime until tomorrow when we meet in person so I’m good for now .

Pearl: it’s not a physical tired but a mental one and because it’s a work week it’s harder for me to unwind from this most of my activities to power down are up north related or motorcycling (raining this week). And I refuse to go back to booze so working out does some good

[Shawnlam]

Also her therapist has brought it to her attention that all she talks about is the harm he’s done to her and she won’t let go ,so where this is going I have no idea .She says she wants to meet or talk to him to get closure and move on amicably and tell him she’s in love with me .I guess in a way I now understand triangulation , and it’s effects on the mind.Im sure she didn’t do this consciously but she did so it’s happening.Ill have to read more on this to understand what she expects from me on this ? I know the other guy is probably just extatic he’s back in communication with her ,me not sure what’s my end role here in her eyes but it’s wearing me thin and to skips many points I’m not the most patient guy out there I’m still surprised I haven’t blown this up yet.In the success stories both on this site and others most successful couples where BPD is involved is because of the persistence of just being there for them ends up building trust but at a trickle effect .(takes forever in the don’t leave her just be there ).

[pearlsw]

Actually I have yet to react to be honest , I did it on purpose not to while my emotions are high.I told her “ hey baby I’m sorry you are going through this it’s tuff, I’m here if you need me”.I got a heart back so I’ve boughtbtime until tomorrow when we meet in person so I’m good for now .

Pearl: it’s not a physical tired but a mental one and because it’s a work week it’s harder for me to unwind from this most of my activities to power down are up north related or motorcycling (raining this week). And I refuse to go back to booze so working out does some good

Hey Shawnlam,

Working out sounds great!  

Are you thinking of doing the gentlemanly exit that Skip suggested as a possible option (hope I am not mischaracterizing that) as opposed to the sudden, emotion fueled break up tomorrow?

Or more listening?

What is the plan for the meet up tomorrow?

~pearl.

[pearlsw]

She says she wants to meet or talk to him to get closure and move on amicably and tell him she’s in love with me .I guess in a way I now understand triangulation , and it’s effects on the mind.Im sure she didn’t do this consciously but she did so it’s happening.

All in all it does sound like she loves you and may be trying to clear the decks to be ready for a future with you.

I know you were already feeling ambivalent.

If she does manage to clear the decks and is free... .would you want her? I know you love her.

It is possible this is legitimately just one last round of housecleaning the past out of the relationship to be able to start free and clear?

~pearl.

[pearlsw]

She says she wants to meet or talk to him to get closure and move on amicably and tell him she’s in love with me .

One last point! I do not have BPD or other mental health issues, but I have had two men pulling on me at once and I have needed to find closure to be able to move forward so... .Some tips based on that.

Let her have the closure. Let her describe the parameters of it. It may not come all at once, but the bulk of it can. You can't control it. Feelings of love are strong. Hopefully if she is feeling those things for him, for her sake and yours, the feelings will die. They don't die sometimes because relationships end before the feelings do. And then you get stuck with feelings and no person. Maybe she did not process the end of the relationship. Her therapist is on this, you don't have to be. You can support. Hopefully you can be kept in the loop. Don't let this go underground or it could come back later.

She does seem to love you. A lot. Keep making being with you appealing if you want her. Be patient to the best of your abilities. You do not have to wait forever. There are gentlemanly ways to step back, let her decide, and come to you. This might be a healthy exercise for her. Make it her choice, instead of you forcing it.

~pearl.

[Wicker Man]

I refuse to go back to booze so working out does some good

Definitely stay out of the bottle at this point in your life. Good for you for not drinking.

I completely agree with Pearl when she said be patient and give her space. 

It brings to mind an evening when one of Dream Come True's ex lovers called on the phone.  I could tell by the look on her face who was on the line.  I lit two cigarettes gave one to her, squeezed her arm and left the room so she could talk to him.  When she came out of the room she said 'I can't believe how much you love me'.   In my mind there had been no other way to handle the situation -so I took the high road.  The low road (fire fight) would have, in my estimation pushed her towards the other guy.

From what I am reading you care for this woman, but are frustrated and confused.  If you are able --give yourself the emotional space and time to figure out what your wants and needs might be in this relationship. 

This is far easier said than done.  For me there was an element of 'chase instinct' with Dream Come True -when she pushed me away I chased her. 

I didn't have the presence of mind while in the relationship to take a breath and observe whether it was right for me or not.  As a point of fact I was never granted this luxury.  Take your time, don't make any rash decisions.  Be very proud of yourself in the way you have handled the last few days -I have a feeling I knew precisely what you are going through.

To give you an idea of my train wreck week -She was on a job, sick (literally coughing blood), seeing someone else, had ghosted me.  I nearly flew from LA to NingBo China in a panic... .  So honestly Shawn as hard as this seems -you are doing great! 


Wicker Man

[Skip]

Actually I have yet to react to be honest , I did it on purpose not to while my emotions are high... .

You didn't go off on her.    That's good. You sought support. Even better. Big step forward.

You did react. A lot. Read your posts here. You immediate response was to catastrophize the situation (jumping to conclusions), start talking about "these people" (labeling , overgeneralization), say that she had no business being in a relationship (personalization and blame), and start to push away (she saw that) and plan an exit (all-or-nothing thinking).

You can read about these here (please   )
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

Do you see that?

Touch you with the wrong feather and you go off.

To stay in a relationship / this relationship, you will need a tad bit more self awareness.  I've been saying this to you for weeks, and I will let it go if we can't get some traction on it soon  

You have a significant role in the relationship conflict. Our number one rule on bettering it that "you can't make it better until you stop making it worse." You have a natural inclination to bring it on.  Please don't react to that as an insult - react to it as an opportunity - a big opportunity.

Just a early warning (before it is too late). What brings most BPD relationships down is trust. The BPD person has a huge trust trigger (bigger than your vulnerability trigger) and every time you touch it, it move closer to the engaging the firing pin.  Your reaction to her is often fight/flight. She has told you this doesn't sit well. She saw the flight reaction here (you didn't cover it). Listen to her. Once the trigger has pulled, there is no going back, no do-overs.

Make sense?

[Harley Quinn]

This thread has reached it's size limit and has now been locked.  The topic discussion continues in a new thread HERE