BPD mother won't stop What do I do?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I have been trying to reduce contact with my BP mother. I try to keep our texts at most once a day, I call her two to three times a week, and see her one to two times a week. This is drastically reduced compared to the past, I have been gradually reducing contact for the last 3 years. She has been struggling with this reduction in contact for a long time now and won't let go.

In the last week or so, I have decided that I do not want to spend anytime alone with her. When we are alone is when she is most hostile, aggressive, and makes me feel guilty. I feel vulnerable and unsafe when we are alone. However, I have not outright told her I don't want to be with her alone... .I can't imagine how angry she would get if I did tell her.

This past weekend, I went to the movies with her, my brother, and my fiance. She mostly acted well, but did have a passive aggressive attitude at times. We got through the night without a crisis though. Yesterday, she texted me and called me asking if I want to go to dinner with her (just her and nobody else with us) this week. We have a dinner planned for next Saturday with my fiance, and brother as well.  I told her I needed to check my work schedule but I think I am working every night so I don't think I can do dinner during the week. She got upset and said "Well I guess you don't want to spend time with me" then hung up.

Today, she texted me asking "o you want to go to dinner with me this week?"

I don't know what to say. Of course, I don't want to go to dinner with her and definitely don't want to go just the two of us. However, if I tell her I'm busy every night, she will get mad and not believe me. She also may follow me to work and see that I'm not actually working every night.

I don't know why I am so scared, but I am terrified to tell her "No" or that "I'm busy." But I don't think there is any other option? What should I do?

[naturalturn]

I have been trying to reduce contact with my BP mother. I try to keep our texts at most once a day, I call her two to three times a week, and see her one to two times a week. This is drastically reduced compared to the past, I have been gradually reducing contact for the last 3 years. She has been struggling with this reduction in contact for a long time now and won't let go.

In the last week or so, I have decided that I do not want to spend anytime alone with her. When we are alone is when she is most hostile, aggressive, and makes me feel guilty. I feel vulnerable and unsafe when we are alone. However, I have not outright told her I don't want to be with her alone... .I can't imagine how angry she would get if I did tell her.

This past weekend, I went to the movies with her, my brother, and my fiance. She mostly acted well, but did have a passive aggressive attitude at times. We got through the night without a crisis though. Yesterday, she texted me and called me asking if I want to go to dinner with her (just her and nobody else with us) this week. We have a dinner planned for next Saturday with my fiance, and brother as well.  I told her I needed to check my work schedule but I think I am working every night so I don't think I can do dinner during the week. She got upset and said "Well I guess you don't want to spend time with me" then hung up.

Today, she texted me asking "o you want to go to dinner with me this week?"

I don't know what to say. Of course, I don't want to go to dinner with her and definitely don't want to go just the two of us. However, if I tell her I'm busy every night, she will get mad and not believe me. She also may follow me to work and see that I'm not actually working every night.

I don't know why I am so scared, but I am terrified to tell her "No" or that "I'm busy." But I don't think there is any other option? What should I do?

[Learning2Thrive]

I don't know why I am so scared, but I am terrified to tell her "No" or that "I'm busy." But I don't think there is any other option? What should I do?

What do you think she will do if you just say, “No, thank you.” without JADEing (Justify Argue Defend Explain)? If she asks why, simply relpy that you have made your decision. What do you think she would do if you do this?

  L2T

[naturalturn]

What do you think she will do if you just say, “No, thank you.” without JADEing (Justify Argue Defend Explain)? If she asks why, simply relpy that you have made your decision. What do you think she would do if you do this?

  L2T

I don't know exactly what she would do, I have never faced her like that. I know she would be very angry though, very very angry. She may call up my father and scream at him, blaming him for this. She would call me and leave angry voicemails, if I didn't answer her calls she would follow me to work or to my apartment and confront me face to face.

[Learning2Thrive]

I don't know exactly what she would do, I have never faced her like that. I know she would be very angry though, very very angry. She may call up my father and scream at him, blaming him for this. She would call me and leave angry voicemails, if I didn't answer her calls she would follow me to work or to my apartment and confront me face to face.

Let’s talk about this hypothetically for a bit... .

If she called your father and screamed at him, what would he say to her? What would he do?

If she sends you angry voicemails, what would she do if you responded by telling her to stop?

Do you believe she would physically attack you?

  L2T

[zachira]

You are right on track in not wanting to spend time alone with your BPD mother. My mother has BPD, and I have learned over the years that she treats me much better when others are around, especially if they are not her children and people she wants to impress. Tell her what you have to in order to not spend time with her. I did this with my mother, and first it was hell on wheels, and now she is acting somewhat better knowing that it is the best way to have any contact with me.
There are many people on this site dealing with a BPD mother. We are here to listen and support you. Keep us updated on how you are doing.

[naturalturn]

Let’s talk about this hypothetically for a bit... .

If she called your father and screamed at him, what would he say to her? What would he do?

If she sends you angry voicemails, what would she do if you responded by telling her to stop?

Do you believe she would physically attack you?

  L2T

I don't know if she would, but I would expect her to corner me physically when I'm alone (like when I'm walking to my car from work) and I wouldn't be surprised if she attacked me physically if I told her that I didn't want to see her anymore.

But I guess in this instance, it shouldn't be so dramatic... .I guess? She can be so unpredictable... .

[naturalturn]

You are right on track in not wanting to spend time alone with your BPD mother. My mother has BPD, and I have learned over the years that she treats me much better when others are around, especially if they are not her children and people she wants to impress. Tell her what you have to in order to not spend time with her. I did this with my mother, and first it was hell on wheels, and now she is acting somewhat better knowing that it is the best way to have any contact with me.
There are many people on this site dealing with a BPD mother. We are here to listen and support you. Keep us updated on how you are doing.

Yes! Worlds better when others are around!
Did you just stay persistent in saying what you had to say to not spend time alone with her? Was there any turning point? What helped you?

I am worried that I will tell her that I am working every night this week, but then she will show up at my workplace and see that it was a lie. And then there will be a massive fight... .

[zachira]

I didn't give her much of an explanation. I would just tell mom that I had to hang up, had to leave when she was present, or not make plans with her. With a BPD, too much explaining just creates more drama, and it is all about them anyway, and they cannot understand another point of view, so why give them one?

[Panda39]

Hi naturalturn,

I didn't give her much of an explanation. I would just tell mom that I had to hang up, had to leave when she was present, or not make plans with her. With a BPD, too much explaining just creates more drama, and it is all about them anyway, and they cannot understand another point of view, so why give them one?

I think what zachira is suggesting is don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) because when you do you end up getting into circular arguments... .that wear you down until you back down.

More on JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Other than blocking your way does your mother have a history of getting physical towards you or anyone else?  I ask because I wonder if your fear is based on a past history of this type of behavior or if it is a threat that she implies.  One of the most common tools used against us by people with BPD (pwBPD) is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail and it sounds like she is engaging all three to get you to do what she wants you to do.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Does FOG sound familiar to you?

I know I've given you a lot of reading already but before I go, I also wanted to point out the box to the right --> each item is a link to more information.  You might want to check out the "Lessons" section when you have time... .there is tons of information there that you might find eye opening and validating.

Take Care,
Panda39

[naturalturn]

I didn't give her much of an explanation. I would just tell mom that I had to hang up, had to leave when she was present, or not make plans with her. With a BPD, too much explaining just creates more drama, and it is all about them anyway, and they cannot understand another point of view, so why give them one?

Good point. Thanks.

[naturalturn]

Hi naturalturn,



I think what zachira is suggesting is don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) because when you do you end up getting into circular arguments... .that wear you down until you back down.

More on JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Other than blocking your way does your mother have a history of getting physical towards you or anyone else?  I ask because I wonder if your fear is based on a past history of this type of behavior or if it is a threat that she implies.  One of the most common tools used against us by people with BPD (pwBPD) is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail and it sounds like she is engaging all three to get you to do what she wants you to do.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Does FOG sound familiar to you?

I know I've given you a lot of reading already but before I go, I also wanted to point out the box to the right --> each item is a link to more information.  You might want to check out the "Lessons" section when you have time... .there is tons of information there that you might find eye opening and validating.

Take Care,
Panda39

Thank you for your advice. She has a history of being very physically aggressive growing up and when she was young. She has aggressively hit me hard once, but "play" hits me often in a joking way. Growing up, I told her that sometimes her "play" hitting was too hard, but she of course invalidated my feelings and told me I was just being a baby.
She definitely uses FOG to control me. Absolutely. When I was a teen, she would tell me that if I didn't do what she said, she wouldn't speak to me again, she wouldn't trust me, she would leave me etc etc. Her favorite hobby is making me feel guilty on top of all that.

Thanks again for all the information <3

[Kwamina]

Hi naturalturn

Her history of physical violence is disturbing and I understand why this would cause you concern now and make you a bit anxious.

She would call me and leave angry voicemails, if I didn't answer her calls she would follow me to work or to my apartment and confront me face to face.

Is following you to work or your apartment something she has done before?

She has aggressively hit me hard once

Physical violence is unacceptable. I am very sorry you experienced this type of violence from your own mother. How old were you when she did this? What was the context of this situation and what happened afterwards?

, but "play" hits me often in a joking way. Growing up, I told her that sometimes her "play" hitting was too hard, but she of course invalidated my feelings and told me I was just being a baby.

Her response to you was indeed invalidating and her hitting you also violated your physical boundaries. She was wrong, no matter what she said, she was wrong to treat you this way.

Does she still "play" hit you nowadays in a way you consider too hard?

She definitely uses FOG to control me. Absolutely. When I was a teen, she would tell me that if I didn't do what she said, she wouldn't speak to me again, she wouldn't trust me, she would leave me etc etc. Her favorite hobby is making me feel guilty on top of all that.

Yeah, this indeed is a prime example of applying FOG. Panda39 pointed you to some great resources about FOG and I too really encourage you to check them out.

Take care

The Board Parrot

[Panda39]

So clearly your mom has been physically abusive in the past so has the potential to be physically abusive again in the future.  I'm so sorry you've had to experience this 

I am worried that I will tell her that I am working every night this week, but then she will show up at my workplace and see that it was a lie. And then there will be a massive fight... .

Are you thinking physical fight or verbal?

Would she show up at your home if she found you not at work?  Or would she call? Or just wait and ambush you about it the next time she sees you?... .just trying to get a feel for her usual way (and maybe there isn't a usual way) of approaching you in these types of situations.

Thank you for your advice. She has a history of being very physically aggressive growing up and when she was young. She has aggressively hit me hard once, but "play" hits me often in a joking way. Growing up, I told her that sometimes her "play" hitting was too hard, but she of course invalidated my feelings and told me I was just being a baby.

Invalidating and blame shifting when you called her on it.

She definitely uses FOG to control me. Absolutely. When I was a teen, she would tell me that if I didn't do what she said, she wouldn't speak to me again, she wouldn't trust me, she would leave me etc etc. Her favorite hobby is making me feel guilty on top of all that.

I think it really helps to start seeing things more clearly when you begin to see the FOG, if you can see it you can take things less personally, you can see that it is actually about her, about bullying, about control and in reality isn't about who you are at all.

Guilt... .in my opinion the number one weapon used by folks with BPD... .using our kindness... .our empathy... .our love... .against us (missing the barfy emoji here  ) The struggle with guilt is to me one of the toughest things to deal with, but as you create boundaries, get out of the FOG and begin taking care of yourself it can get easier.

Panda39

[naturalturn]

Hi naturalturn

Her history of physical violence is disturbing and I understand why this would cause you concern now and make you a bit anxious.

Is following you to work or your apartment something she has done before?

Physical violence is unacceptable. I am very sorry you experienced this type of violence from your own mother. How old were you when she did this? What was the context of this situation and what happened afterwards?

Her response to you was indeed invalidating and her hitting you also violated your physical boundaries. She was wrong, no matter what she said, she was wrong to treat you this way.

Does she still "play" hit you nowadays in a way you consider too hard?

Yeah, this indeed is a prime example of applying FOG. Panda39 pointed you to some great resources about FOG and I too really encourage you to check them out.

Take care

The Board Parrot

Yes, she has followed me to work on multiple occasions and unexpectedly showed up at my workplace. She has also showed up at my apartment unannounced multiple times too. My mother has also popped up unexpectedly at restaurants and places around town when I have told her I was going there with a friend.

She has told me since I was a child, that no matter where I go, even if I try to run from her, she will always follow me because she can't survive without me.

When she hit me, I think I was about 11 years old. I can't remember what the context was, but we were talking about something and she was unhappy. She has ALWAYS twisted and distorted my words to mean things that I never intended. I lived my life trying to please her, so I don't think I was saying anything that I meant disrespectful or mean... .she was my world as a child and I wanted to be just like her.

After she hit, I started crying and ran to my room because I wasn't allowed to cry in front of her if the crying came about because of a discussion or conflict we had. I started saying aloud in my bathroom attached to my room that I couldn't wait to go to college and leave forever. I had both my room and bathroom doors closed. I didn't realize that she had opened my bedroom door with a key she had and was listening to what I was saying in the bathroom. She then banged on my bathroom and forced me to open it. I was terrified. She told me that I can't say things like that and that she only hit me because I said something wrong.

Recently, I try to not get physically close enough for her to touch me and I try to always have a sweater or lots of clothing on around her so at least I won't feel her hands touching me.
She still smacks my butt when I am not looking which I don't appreciate. But she hasn't play hit me hard in a while.

[naturalturn]

So clearly your mom has been physically abusive in the past so has the potential to be physically abusive again in the future.  I'm so sorry you've had to experience this 

Are you thinking physical fight or verbal?

Would she show up at your home if she found you not at work?  Or would she call? Or just wait and ambush you about it the next time she sees you?... .just trying to get a feel for her usual way (and maybe there isn't a usual way) of approaching you in these types of situations.

Invalidating and blame shifting when you called her on it.

I think it really helps to start seeing things more clearly when you begin to see the FOG, if you can see it you can take things less personally, you can see that it is actually about her, about bullying, about control and in reality isn't about who you are at all.

Guilt... .in my opinion the number one weapon used by folks with BPD... .using our kindness... .our empathy... .our love... .against us (missing the barfy emoji here  ) The struggle with guilt is to me one of the toughest things to deal with, but as you create boundaries, get out of the FOG and begin taking care of yourself it can get easier.

Panda39

I expect a verbal fight, but I think there is a possibility of a physical one if she got mad enough. She would most likely call me if she showed up at my work and I wasn't there, if I didn't answer my phone, she may show up at my apartment. She would probably try calling my fiance first though before showing up to my apartment.

In the past though, she has ambushed me about situations once we saw each other. They were almost situations she distorted and skewed in her BP mind to mean something else. I can still see her squinted eyes and evil smirk when she has done this.

Thank you for your advice especially on seeing the FOG. That is very helpful and I will work on trying to recognize it.
My therapist thinks I should write her a letter, cut off all contact, and get a restraining order... .but this is very difficult for me to do... .

[Kwamina]

Hi naturalturn,

Thanks for answering my questions

Yes, she has followed me to work on multiple occasions and unexpectedly showed up at my workplace. She has also showed up at my apartment unannounced multiple times too. My mother has also popped up unexpectedly at restaurants and places around town when I have told her I was going there with a friend.

I must say that I find this behavior she exhibits very disturbing and unsettling. What did you tell her when she unexpectedly showed up?

She has told me since I was a child, that no matter where I go, even if I try to run from her, she will always follow me because she can't survive without me.

This is again quite heavily laying the FOG on you and really putting a huge burden on you as a child basically making you feel responsible for her life.

I didn't realize that she had opened my bedroom door with a key she had and was listening to what I was saying in the bathroom.

Did you know at all that she had another key?

She still smacks my butt when I am not looking which I don't appreciate.

This is highly inappropriate behavior. Have you ever expressed to her that you do not appreciate her doing this?

My therapist thinks I should write her a letter, cut off all contact, and get a restraining order... .but this is very difficult for me to do... .

No matter how you move forward with your mother, I think it will be very important for you to set and enforce/defend boundaries with her. It definitely can be very challenging dealing with a disordered parent. Since her behavior is clearly taking its toll on you, I think it's highly advisable to take firm steps to protect yourself from her. Are there any steps you think you can take and would also be willing to take, which would protect you more from your mother's behavior?

[naturalturn]

Hi naturalturn,

Thanks for answering my questions

I must say that I find this behavior she exhibits very disturbing and unsettling. What did you tell her when she unexpectedly showed up?

This is again quite heavily laying the FOG on you and really putting a huge burden on you as a child basically making you feel responsible for her life.

Did you know at all that she had another key?

This is highly inappropriate behavior. Have you ever expressed to her that you do not appreciate her doing this?

No matter how you move forward with your mother, I think it will be very important for you to set and enforce/defend boundaries with her. It definitely can be very challenging dealing with a disordered parent. Since her behavior is clearly taking its toll on you, I think it's highly advisable to take firm steps to protect yourself from her. Are there any steps you think you can take and would also be willing to take, which would protect you more from your mother's behavior?

Thank you for your response and advice!

When she has showed up at my workplace or at the apartment, I just smile and act like I'm happy to see her. At first, I would ask her why she is there (and I actually meant it in a nice way), she then would get loud and aggressive and say "What? You don't want me to be here? I just wanted to see you that's all! Is that a problem for you that your mother wants to see you? FINE I'll leave since you don't want to see me! SORRY I'M SUCH AN INCONVENIENCE IN YOUR LIFE!"

After that, I stopped asking and just acted like I was glad to see her. Two weeks ago she showed up at my workplace unexpectedly, I was cordial and said hello and hugged her, but continued on doing my work (she hovered over me.) She kept saying "Why are you acting this way? STOP! You don't want to see me? Talk to me!" and "Let me help you do what you're doing, how about I go home and change clothes and then I'll come back and help you" I told her nicely that I didn't really need the help and had to figure out what I was doing as i went along so I couldn't really give her instructions. She then replied with an attitude "It seems like I'm just getting in the way so I guess I should leave" Then once she was finally leaving she was like "I never see you, I miss you, I never get to spend time with you"

As a child, I knew she had a key to my bedroom because my brother had the same kind of lock so she could use a key to get into his room. He would lock himself in his room when he was a toddler so I saw her opening his room and knew she could open mine if she wanted. My parents had cameras in both of our rooms growing up too and my camera wasn't covered up until I was in high school and my friends kept making fun of me how weird it was to have a camera in my room that my parents could watch.

I have told her I don't like her smacking my butt. She responds "That's my butt, I made it and I can do whatever I want with it" or "I'm you're mother, stop acting that way!" or "I love you more than anybody else could, don't act that way with me!"

Some boundaries I have been trying the last 2 or so weeks is keeping my phone off during the day, so only replying to her text messages and calls once in the evening and I have been making sure that I have somebody else with me on speaker phone when I speak to her on the phone, and making sure somebody else is with me whenever I see her in person (this one she is very unhappy with)


I am seriously considering to move to a different state in the future. Unfortunately I don't finish college until December and I have my graduation ceremony in May so I can't go anywhere before then.
My fiance and I plan to get married Sept. 2019 and we have majority of our expenses covered for the wedding as we know people who own rental companies, venues, etc.  So I don't see us moving until after the wedding.
I guess I'm trying to find a way to survive (and keep my sanity) until then.

[Kwamina]

You're welcome

My parents had cameras in both of our rooms growing up too and my camera wasn't covered up until I was in high school and my friends kept making fun of me how weird it was to have a camera in my room that my parents could watch.

I definitely consider this a serious invasion of privacy and another sign of your parents' controlling behavior. Were there also cameras installed in other parts of the house?

How did this make you feel knowing your parents could watch you?

Did your parents give any reason for them putting the cameras in your and your brother's room?

Your mother's disorder is clear, you also specifically mention both parents here. How would you describe your father's behavior growing up? What role did he play in the family dynamics?

I have told her I don't like her smacking my butt. She responds "That's my butt, I made it and I can do whatever I want with it" or "I'm you're mother, stop acting that way!" or "I love you more than anybody else could, don't act that way with me!"

Your mother clearly has serious issues with boundaries and respecting your physical boundaries.

I think it's very good that you've started to set more and firmer boundaries with her. She might be unhappy with you doing so, but quite frankly, that is her problem, she is responsible for her happiness and not you. Her behavior is making you very uncomfortable and boundaries are primarily aimed at protecting ourselves and preserving our own well-being.

How is your fiancée dealing with all of this? How does he view your mother's behavior?

The Board Parrot (yeah I ask a lot of questions but that's just the parrot's way)

[naturalturn]

You're welcome

I definitely consider this a serious invasion of privacy and another sign of your parents' controlling behavior. Were there also cameras installed in other parts of the house?

How did this make you feel knowing your parents could watch you?

Did your parents give any reason for them putting the cameras in your and your brother's room?

I don't mind the questions at all!  

There were 6 cameras on the outside of the house. Two for the front yard, one by the front door, and three for the backyard. The only ones inside the house were the two in my room and my brother's.

I didn't know anything else other than the camera in my room. My parents always told me that I shouldn't be worried about it so I wasn't usually. As I got a little older, it made me feel uncomfortable and I would go in my bathroom and shut the door to change. I had told my parents I didn't want the camera in my room when I was about 13 or so, but my mom would just tell me "Oh we never look at it so you don't need to worry, it's just family." The thing is, any television in our house at access to see the camera in my room through a certain channel, so even guests in the guestroom could see inside my room if they were flipping through channels. Now looking back, it was kind of like a Big Brother setup... .so weird to me.

The reasoning behind the cameras (they say) was to watch me as a baby to see if I was awake, like a baby monitor. But these cameras were properly installed in the ceilings so they weren't easily removable. Once I got to high school, my friends (girls) felt weird just walking into my room because of the camera. My father finally agreed to cover the camera with a piece of paper. My mother didn't understand what the fuss was about.

Your mother's disorder is clear, you also specifically mention both parents here. How would you describe your father's behavior growing up? What role did he play in the family dynamics?

My father was physically there a lot growing up, but emotionally I felt distant. This is partly because of my mother who manipulated me to think that I should be scared of my father so that I would be closer to her. She would tell me from when I was a child to about 19 years old "You're father is upset with you because of "xyz"" I believed her and then grew worried that I upset my father, even though he wouldnt express this to me. When I would ask her if he wanted to talk to me or if I should say something to him, she would always tell me "No, let me talk to him. I can talk to him better and get a better result if it comes from me."

When I was 19, my mother had told me my father was upset about something, so I asked him about it directly. He told me he didn't know what I was talking about and he wasn't upset at me at all.

I realized at this point, that she would say my father was upset about something, but REALLY SHE was the one who was upset! And would use this to manipulate me!

This was a troubling realization for me. My dad also is not a very emotional person. He has never supported me emotionally until about a few months ago. I still remember when my dog died when I was 15 and he told me "Get over it" less than an hour after my dog died. Whenever I would cry, he would say "Stop crying and get over it" since I was a little kid. This obviously didn't encourage me to get closer to him growing up.

Now, he isn't perfect, but he is there for me and I really feel like he loves me. My mother has been vicious towards him for years, so I know he believes me when I tell him all the mean things she says to me. He truly believes I need to cut her off and live my own life. He has been telling me that I need to put my safety and happiness above her and anybody else who is trying to hurt me.

Your mother clearly has serious issues with boundaries and respecting your physical boundaries.

I think it's very good that you've started to set more and firmer boundaries with her. She might be unhappy with you doing so, but quite frankly, that is her problem, she is responsible for her happiness and not you. Her behavior is making you very uncomfortable and boundaries are primarily aimed at protecting ourselves and preserving our own well-being.

How is your fiancée dealing with all of this? How does he view your mother's behavior?

The Board Parrot (yeah I ask a lot of questions but that's just the parrot's way  )

My fiance is worried about me. He wants me to be happy and feel safe. He thinks my mother is insane and wishes she was different. He has told me he'd be glad to have a heart-to-heart with my mother, but I don't want that. She'll blame everything on him and act like he is holding me captive or something which I really don't want. My fiance supports my desire to move away and says that when we do move, he will make sure she doesn't follow whether I want him to intervene or not because he feels so bad seeing me so miserable because of her. He thinks my mother is selfish and irrational and doesn't care about my feelings, happiness, and well-being.

[Panda39]

Hi Naturalturn,

I was wondering if your dad is more emotional these days... .now that your parents are divorced?

It occurred to me that you weren't allowed to express your feelings, is it possible he wasn't allowed to either? There is a well known book about BPD called "Stop Walking on Eggshells"  could it be that he was walking on eggshells trying not to trigger your mother?  

Do you think your dad enabled your mom's behaviors trying to avoid triggering her?

My father was physically there a lot growing up, but emotionally I felt distant. This is partly because of my mother who manipulated me to think that I should be scared of my father so that I would be closer to her. She would tell me from when I was a child to about 19 years old "You're father is upset with you because of "xyz"" I believed her and then grew worried that I upset my father, even though he wouldnt express this to me. When I would ask her if he wanted to talk to me or if I should say something to him, she would always tell me "No, let me talk to him. I can talk to him better and get a better result if it comes from me."

When I was 19, my mother had told me my father was upset about something, so I asked him about it directly. He told me he didn't know what I was talking about and he wasn't upset at me at all.

I realized at this point, that she would say my father was upset about something, but REALLY SHE was the one who was upset! And would use this to manipulate me!

This sounds like Parental Alienation to me and kudos to you for figuring it out! Parental Alienation often gets talked about in relation to divorce but it definitely can happen within a household where the parents are still married too.  Parental Alienation is incredibly painful for the alienated parent and child.  It's great that you and your dad still have a good connection in spite of your mom trying to keep you distant.

So since we are asking questions (Nope the Parrot didn't ask them all  ) How does your brother fit into the story?  What is your relationship him like and how does he feel about and negotiate his relationship with your mom?

Several people in your life have suggested putting yourself first, your needs before your moms, and creating boundaries to protect yourself... .that's what boundaries are for protecting ourselves this isn't about hurting your mom.  How are you feeling about all of this, have the boundaries been giving you any relief?

Panda39

[Turkish]

As an adult, you don't have to put up with that.  It's assault.

When I was 15, my mom went to smack me, as was normal. I grabbed her hand. Then she went to smack me with her other hand.  Then she kicked me,  which qualifies as child abuse in my state. I ran out the door and she threw a flashlight at me, the kind with 6 D cells so it was heavy. It broke on the ground which pissed her off more and she  screamed.  I ran off into the woods for many hours. 

When I was 17, she slapped me (for being a mealy mothed teenager). I instinctively raised my hand back and she said,  "what? Are you going to slap your own mother?" I dropped my hand and rode off on my motorcycle. I thought it all pathetic. To this day. I wonder how it would have turned out if I had slapped her back... .but up course we were conditioned to just take whatever our parents lashed our. No questions. 

As kids we were without help. As adults, it is different. Where do you feel you are now?

[naturalturn]

Hi Naturalturn,

I was wondering if your dad is more emotional these days... .now that your parents are divorced?

It occurred to me that you weren't allowed to express your feelings, is it possible he wasn't allowed to either? There is a well known book about BPD called "Stop Walking on Eggshells"  could it be that he was walking on eggshells trying not to trigger your mother?  

Do you think your dad enabled your mom's behaviors trying to avoid triggering her?

He is a little more emotionally understanding... .a little. But he is still not emotional himself. I cried about 2 weeks in front of him when my mother showed up at his doorstep, I opened the door, she refused to come inside and went on to guilt and blame me for her feelings. I was alone at the door the whole time and when she finally left, I came back to the dining room where my dad was and cried for 20 mins. I think that was the first time he didn't scold me for crying and he actually felt concerned. However, he still is not very sensitive and can't fathom why it is difficult or scary for me just to "cut her off."

Yes, I am reading that book!  No, I don't think his lack of emotions is because of her. He had a troublesome childhood and is very old-fashioned in the sense that men don't cry, men can't be vulnerable, etc. He has always said what he thinks which is probably one of the reasons my mom dislikes him so much. When she is mean to him, he'll tell her she's being mean.

So since we are asking questions (Nope the Parrot didn't ask them all  ) How does your brother fit into the story?  What is your relationship him like and how does he feel about and negotiate his relationship with your mom?

My brother and mother's relationship is complicated. My brother has Asperger's and has always struggled expressing himself and reading social cues, body language, meta-messages, etc. He also doesn't understand how to negotiate with my mother or even know how to walk on eggshells. Growing up, she always played the "Oh, woe is me" character because "it's so hard having a disabled child." Now, my brother does have social issues, but overall, his Asperger's is mild. He still lives a normal life, goes to a normal school, etc. When I was in high school (my brother is 6 years younger), my mother used to tell me "I don't want to hear about your problems! All you are doing is stressing me out with your problems and I have enough to worry about with your brother and all of his issues!" She acted like my brother's Asperger's was the center of her life. She always blamed his Asperger's on my father stating "Well, you know, Asperger's comes from the father's DNA."

However, a HUGE shift happened once I went to college. My college is only 30 mins away from where I live, so even though I went to college, I barely lived in the dorm rooms. I spent 4 to 5 nights a week at home just to appease my mother and left my dorm bed at college empty most of the time. This is when things really started to get bad with my mother. She started to COMPLETELY ignore my brother, she wouldn't take him to school, wouldn't pick him up, never made dinner, never spent time with him, went out to clubs and getting drunk with friends every Friday and Saturday. She would complain that my brother "is so weird" or "such a weirdo." The only time she really every paid him attention is when she would scream at him and make him feel bad for not getting straight A's.

Since my parents separated, my brother has only spent one night at her apartment (my parent's apartments are approx. 15-20 mins apart, so not far) My mother will occasionally pick him up on a Saturday afternoon to go to the movies or something but always finds a reason to drop him back off at my dad's.

Long story short: My brother is ignored and my mother doesn't seem to care about him at all. Even worse, she sees him as a defect. My brother has trouble saying the right things to please my mother and this makes her angry, but he doesnt understand what he did wrong in her eyes.

I used to be bitter of my brother because my mother was so "concerned" about him growing up even though he didn't have the grades I did and didn't live his life to please my mother, like I did. This seemed unfair to me. Now, I feel bad for him, I guess if the options are to have a crazy mother obsessed with you or have a crazy mother ignore you, the latter is better. But he is 16 and struggles with his emotions. I don't want him to feel invalidated or that he is worthless.

Several people in your life have suggested putting yourself first, your needs before your moms, and creating boundaries to protect yourself... .that's what boundaries are for protecting ourselves this isn't about hurting your mom.  How are you feeling about all of this, have the boundaries been giving you any relief?

Panda39

The boundary of not spending time with her alone has made me feel better. The boundary of not talking to her on the phone alone has made me feel better. The boundary of not texting/calling her all day has made me feel better.

I still worry and get anxiety that these boundaries probably upset her, but I am working on not being concerned about upsetting her. I don't know why it's so hard.

[naturalturn]

As an adult, you don't have to put up with that.  It's assault.

When I was 15, my mom went to smack me, as was normal. I grabbed her hand. Then she went to smack me with her other hand.  Then she kicked me,  which qualifies as child abuse in my state. I ran out the door and she threw a flashlight at me, the kind with 6 D cells so it was heavy. It broke on the ground which pissed her off more and she  screamed.  I ran off into the woods for many hours. 

When I was 17, she slapped me (for being a mealy mothed teenager). I instinctively raised my hand back and she said,  "what? Are you going to slap your own mother?" I dropped my hand and rode off on my motorcycle. I thought it all pathetic. To this day. I wonder how it would have turned out if I had slapped her back... .but up course we were conditioned to just take whatever our parents lashed our. No questions. 

As kids we were without help. As adults, it is different. Where do you feel you are now?

I am starting to feel more that I can make my own life. I am working on not just taking it when she lashes out on me. I have always felt obligated to her, but people around me are helping me start to feel otherwise.

[Panda39]

The boundary of not spending time with her alone has made me feel better. The boundary of not talking to her on the phone alone has made me feel better. The boundary of not texting/calling her all day has made me feel better.

I still worry and get anxiety that these boundaries probably upset her, but I am working on not being concerned about upsetting her. I don't know why it's so hard.

It's hard because you have been conditioned your whole life to put her needs and feelings first before your own or anyone elses.  My guess is that you believe that putting yourself first is "selfish", that is a message you've received to make you feel bad when you don't put her first.

In my experience guilt is one of the biggest and most effective weapons folks with BPD use to control.  They will take all of our good qualities, being polite, kind, caring and thoughtful and bully/manipulate/control through those things to get what they want... .which leads back around to FOG.

It's learning that you have value on your own... .in your own eyes... .that your value is not dependent on your mother's opinion of you.  It's learning that you deserve to be treated well, valued, encouraged, and loved by the people in your life.

It's letting go of the "mother is all knowing" myth and making your own choices about your life as Turksih says now that you are an adult.  Your mother is a flawed human being like us all, her opinion of you is just that her opinion... .in reality it has nothing to do with who you authentically are.

I don't have a BPD mom but do have a very critical mom, I internalized her messages... .I wasn't smart, I wasn't as good as my brother, that I wasn't good enough.  This is my mom, she's an adult she knows everything, she must be right.

What I've come to realize is that she is worried about how I reflect on her, she is worried about what other people think of her, she herself may not feel smart enough.  All of those things are about her and her issues.  I am smart, I am enough and I have wonderful people in my life that love me just the way I am.  You're chasing a moving target trying to please your mom, she is unhappy, and I would bet has always been unhappy... .you hit the target and do just what she wants and then the target moves so she can continue to be unhappy and keep you chasing.

Stop chasing the target, do things for you, take care of you.  Your mother is an adult her feelings, issues, and life are hers to be responsible for.  You are an adult and you are responsible for you.

You are going in the right direction with your boundaries... .you are doing an awesome job! You are seeing the benefits of your boundaries. It will take practice to develop your boundaries further, (we also have other tools that might be helpful to you too) these are new muscles you are using and you have a life-time of conditioning so learning a new way will take time, practice, and will likely feel uncomfortable for a while as you master skills.

Keep doing what you are doing you've just started a journey and we are all on it with you.

Panda39

[naturalturn]

It's hard because you have been conditioned your whole life to put her needs and feelings first before your own or anyone elses.  My guess is that you believe that putting yourself first is "selfish", that is a message you've received to make you feel bad when you don't put her first.

In my experience guilt is one of the biggest and most effective weapons folks with BPD use to control.  They will take all of our good qualities, being polite, kind, caring and thoughtful and bully/manipulate/control through those things to get what they want... .which leads back around to FOG.

It's learning that you have value on your own... .in your own eyes... .that your value is not dependent on your mother's opinion of you.  It's learning that you deserve to be treated well, valued, encouraged, and loved by the people in your life.

It's letting go of the "mother is all knowing" myth and making your own choices about your life as Turksih says now that you are an adult.  Your mother is a flawed human being like us all, her opinion of you is just that her opinion... .in reality it has nothing to do with who you authentically are.

I don't have a BPD mom but do have a very critical mom, I internalized her messages... .I wasn't smart, I wasn't as good as my brother, that I wasn't good enough.  This is my mom, she's an adult she knows everything, she must be right.

What I've come to realize is that she is worried about how I reflect on her, she is worried about what other people think of her, she herself may not feel smart enough.  All of those things are about her and her issues.  I am smart, I am enough and I have wonderful people in my life that love me just the way I am.  You're chasing a moving target trying to please your mom, she is unhappy, and I would bet has always been unhappy... .you hit the target and do just what she wants and then the target moves so she can continue to be unhappy and keep you chasing.

Stop chasing the target, do things for you, take care of you.  Your mother is an adult her feelings, issues, and life are hers to be responsible for.  You are an adult and you are responsible for you.

You are going in the right direction with your boundaries... .you are doing an awesome job! You are seeing the benefits of your boundaries. It will take practice to develop your boundaries further, (we also have other tools that might be helpful to you too) these are new muscles you are using and you have a life-time of conditioning so learning a new way will take time, practice, and will likely feel uncomfortable for a while as you master skills.

Keep doing what you are doing you've just started a journey and we are all on it with you.

Panda39

Thank you so much for you words of wisdom. They really do help and I appreciate you taking the time to listen to me and respond.

I took a big step for me this evening. On Monday, I texted my mother telling her I was working every night this week so I wouldn't be able to go to dinner with her one-on-one during the week but we still would have our plans for a dinner on Saturday with me, my fiance, her and my brother.

She didn't respond. I texted her "Goodnight! Love you!" Every night since then. Today, she texted me at 7pm asking "Are you working tonight" She then texted me at 7:30pm saying "What did I do to you for you to ignore me? Please tell me"

I texted her back at 7:50pm when I checked my phone and said "Yes, I'm working tonight. You texted me less than an hour ago and I am replying now that I saw the message. I also texted you last night, the night before that, and the night before that."

She then replied a long paragraph basically saying "I have given you space, but we just keep spending less time together. We used to talk once a day, now we only text once a night. I haven't spent any time with you this summer. This hurts me. I miss you." Then she added "Its ok"

**Let me add I went to the movies with her last Saturday and have plans to see her this Saturday**

I then replied to her saying how I feel she doesnt appreciate our time together and I have a busy schedule but find time every weekend to see her, but it hurts me that she doesn't appreciate the time I do spend with her. I told her how even when we saw each other everyday in the past she still said we never saw each other and how it's never enough for her. And I ended with "It hurts me that I will never be enough for you."

^^ Guys, this was a huge step for me. I have a lot of anxiety after sending this text. This isn't completely all the issues I have with her (obviously) but it's a step. I'm swinging rapidly between feeling like this was right for me to do and feeling guilty and like I'm being over dramatic.
My fiance keeps telling me that I did the right thing.

[Turkish]

Ignoring you is The Silent Treatment. It's a way of asserting control. Then she switches to The Waif (Abandoned Child), the emotional message being,  "Rescue me!"

Good for you for standing up for yourself and asserting independence though!

For a person with BPD traits,  however,  someone whose internal view of themselves is " my feelings don't count and are inherently worthless; therfore, I don't count and am inherently worthless." That is to say, not worthy of being loved. 

Given that,  adjusting your approach can help reduce triggering her.  Take a look at the top level validation tool,  SET, and read the link at the bottom to the member discussion. Tell us what you think?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

You are on a good path to changing your r/s with your mom while not abandoning her,  despite what she thinks.  I think that there is hope her for positive change,  and we are here to walk with you 

T

[Learning2Thrive]

^^ Guys, this was a huge step for me. I have a lot of anxiety after sending this text. This isn't completely all the issues I have with her (obviously) but it's a step. I'm swinging rapidly between feeling like this was right for me to do and feeling guilty and like I'm being over dramatic.

naturalturn, you are NOT being over dramatic. In my opinion, you were being extremely gentle, loving and consistent in your communication. YAY You!

I totally understand the rapidly swinging feeling you mention. That will diminish the more you assert your SELF.   I am so glad your fiancé is being supportive.

Turkish gave you excellent information with SET validation tool (Sympathy Empathy Truth). Do you feel it could be useful? Sometimes it takes practice. Let us know if we can help. You are doing great, naturalturn. Keep taking good care of yourself.

  L2T

[Panda39]

I took a big step for me this evening. On Monday, I texted my mother telling her I was working every night this week so I wouldn't be able to go to dinner with her one-on-one during the week but we still would have our plans for a dinner on Saturday with me, my fiance, her and my brother.

This is very good, you maintained your boundary (you would not be having dinner with her during the work week) but also reiterated when you would be seeing her next, and you are maintaining your other boundary of not spending time alone with her. Nice Job! 

I then replied to her saying how I feel she doesnt appreciate our time together and I have a busy schedule but find time every weekend to see her, but it hurts me that she doesn't appreciate the time I do spend with her. I told her how even when we saw each other everyday in the past she still said we never saw each other and how it's never enough for her. And I ended with "It hurts me that I will never be enough for you."

I know how hard this was, you are telling her that you have feelings that are separate from hers, and you are voicing those feelings.

Below are links regarding Communication (the first is more general and the second is about SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) that Turkish mentioned earlier... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

^^ Guys, this was a huge step for me. I have a lot of anxiety after sending this text. This isn't completely all the issues I have with her (obviously) but it's a step. I'm swinging rapidly between feeling like this was right for me to do and feeling guilty and like I'm being over dramatic.
My fiance keeps telling me that I did the right thing.

Yes, I see how this is a big step and the feelings you have make sense... .your pushing yourself into new territory when it comes to you and your mom.  Just sit with those feelings... .no need to act on them... .they are what they are.

Your fiance is awesome!  He's definitely a keeper!

Panda39

[naturalturn]

***Thought I would Update... .she replied to my text message that I sent telling her how I feel and said "Sorry I want to spend one-on-one time with you. I am being very selfish. I won't ask again" I can hear the sarcasm and anger dripping from this text.

Ignoring you is The Silent Treatment. It's a way of asserting control. Then she switches to The Waif (Abandoned Child), the emotional message being,  "Rescue me!"

Good for you for standing up for yourself and asserting independence though!

For a person with BPD traits,  however,  someone whose internal view of themselves is " my feelings don't count and are inherently worthless; therfore, I don't count and am inherently worthless." That is to say, not worthy of being loved. 

Given that,  adjusting your approach can help reduce triggering her.  Take a look at the top level validation tool,  SET, and read the link at the bottom to the member discussion. Tell us what you think?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

You are on a good path to changing your r/s with your mom while not abandoning her,  despite what she thinks.  I think that there is hope her for positive change,  and we are here to walk with you 

T

Thank you Turkish. I appreciate your response. Do you think I was being triggering?
She started a whole conversation before I could even text back... .I'm not sure how I could have prevented that... .

Thank you for the link to information. It all makes sense. I truly believe I have used SET for a while... but it doesn't help anything. I still feel bad, she still blames everything on me, and I just keep trying to be nice and understanding. I think this one thing that has led me to have such terrible self-esteem and why it has been such a struggle for me to see my feelings as important. I feel like my whole life all I have done is try to keep the peace and it's exhausting. I have tried to point out nicely in the past how I'm not ignoring her because I spoke to her on the phone the last 4 days in row and will go to lunch with her tomorrow (for example) She would just twist things and keep on with her mantra "I never see you, I never spend time with you" It was like talking to a brick wall, but I was hurting myself emotionally after a while.

I have gotten to the point that I don't feel sympathy or empathy towards her... .It's like I ran out of sympathy and empathy for her. I feel guilty for this, but she has added so much misery to my life... I think it would take a long time of us NC for me to grow sympathy and empathy for her... .

I don't know... .any advice?

[naturalturn]

naturalturn, you are NOT being over dramatic. In my opinion, you were being extremely gentle, loving and consistent in your communication. YAY You!

I totally understand the rapidly swinging feeling you mention. That will diminish the more you assert your SELF.   I am so glad your fiancé is being supportive.

Turkish gave you excellent information with SET validation tool (Sympathy Empathy Truth). Do you feel it could be useful? Sometimes it takes practice. Let us know if we can help. You are doing great, naturalturn. Keep taking good care of yourself.

  L2T

Thank you L2T. I am glad to have a support system here  I spoke a little about the SET tool in my response to Turkish. Maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly?

Thanks again for the support!