How do I deal with refusal to communicate about/with children

[Woodchuck]

Edit:  Looking at the context of your history, I see you may not be separated or divorced but the above principle still applies.  Dealing with her on her terms will keep you spinning your wheels.  On the other hand, without her being in intensive and truly progressing therapy she won't see things your way either.  So what to do?  Deal with things the way they are, not as you wished they were or hope they'd be.

ForeverDad-
You are correct, we are technically not separated and have not truly pursued divorce.
I am beginning to understand that I need to deal with things as they are an not completely on her terms.  That has taken a bit of work to accept as I have always felt like going by her terms will keep the peace but that obviously is not what happens.  According to our pastor, who we have had a few counseling sessions with and he has been able to observe for a few years, she does not want to be accountable to anyone, especially men.  I recognize that this issue probably predates me and is something that I will never understand as I doubt she will ever share the hurt from her past.


WC

[livednlearned]

She may be trying to figure out whether you will move, and if not, she will file for divorce so she can.

Something about the therapy stuff for the kids seems calculated... .

[takingandsending]

Hi Woodchuck.

I think you may, as divorce filing may be in the works, want to rely heavily on communicating with BIFF (Brief Informative Friendly Firm). It is apparent that your wife is hostile and adversarial at this juncture. The reasons or lack of reasons for this is irrelevant at this point, and I doubt you will ever get very much satisfaction chasing down that rabbit hole.

I would agree with another poster not to do too much of your wife's work for her, i.e. listing out all of the faults, failings and apologies for a long marriage. This is simply enabling the victim mentality of the disordered person in your life. I did this very thing for my entire marriage and also, yes, in my divorce. I tend to be introspective, and when someone accuses me of something, I think about it, I take it to heart and consider how maybe I could have been better in a situation. Normally, this is a positive quality in relationships, but it is absolutely not a good thing in a relationship with a pwBPD. This is where your boundaries need to come forward.

What I can share is that I wish I had taken better inventory of what I wanted or felt would be fair before entering the divorce process. I was in a pretty heavy layer of FOG (fear obligation guilt) when I advised that I was seeking a divorce. I felt responsible for harming my kids' lives, for pulling the rug out from under my wife, and for putting all of us into a lot of upheaval. I wasn't thinking about how to protect things that I knew would be in my kid's best interest (like being with me at least half but better the majority of the time), or my best interest (having a finite monetary commitment to helping out my xw and having clear boundaries around interactions and clear plan for selling our family home, etc.). As a result, I am 2.5 years into a divorce, finally have gained equal custody time, have conceded a longer term and more onerous financial commitment and am unburying myself from debt accrued because we only just now sold the family home.

I really encourage you to think about what is right for Woodchuck and Woodchuck's children and take the measures that you can to make that your goal and hopefully reality.

Just my two cents.

[Woodchuck]

She may be trying to figure out whether you will move, and if not, she will file for divorce so she can.

Something about the therapy stuff for the kids seems calculated... .

That may very well be, however, where we live, you can't just file unless you have 'cause' and she doesn't unless she decides to make something up.  She has threatened divorce for years.  I am completely at peace with whatever she does.  I think she is being very calculating with the kids and therapy but I think it will blow up in her face.  I am all for counseling for them as I think they will greatly benefit from having a good counselor.  I am not going to be baited into her chess game.  She has shown her cards in that I cannot count on her at all so I will continue on with life and make decisions as I go but contrary to her belief, those decisions will not be an attempt for me to win or make her lose or out maneuver her.  I want everyone to win even if that eventually means divorce.  I have told her over and over and mean it from the bottom of my heart, what I really want is to see her happy and fulfilled in life and if that means without me, I am ok with that.

WC

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck.

I think you may, as divorce filing may be in the works, want to rely heavily on communicating with BIFF (Brief Informative Friendly Firm). It is apparent that your wife is hostile and adversarial at this juncture. The reasons or lack of reasons for this is irrelevant at this point, and I doubt you will ever get very much satisfaction chasing down that rabbit hole.

takingandsending-
I agree that I need to work on BIFF. At the same time, with most of our communication being electronic, there is no he said/she said.  It is all there as a permanent record that cannot be disputed.  She continues to show her true colors through electronic communication and it seems the more I can document that, the better off things will be.  That does not mean that I need/want to try to bait her into anything.  I will simply attempt to be as validating as possible and use SET.  I have personally seen a huge improvement from how I was communicating a few months ago.  I really wish I had been aware of all these tools years ago.  I feel so much more at peace as I work to put these into practice.

I would agree with another poster not to do too much of your wife's work for her, i.e. listing out all of the faults, failings and apologies for a long marriage. This is simply enabling the victim mentality of the disordered person in your life. I did this very thing for my entire marriage and also, yes, in my divorce. I tend to be introspective, and when someone accuses me of something, I think about it, I take it to heart and consider how maybe I could have been better in a situation. Normally, this is a positive quality in relationships, but it is absolutely not a good thing in a relationship with a pwBPD. This is where your boundaries need to come forward.

As you can see from our conversation, I will not be baited into listing all my faults.  It is very evident that there is no healthy reasoning behind her request.  I have listed all my faults so many times.  I have apologized for anything and everything I could possible apologize for so many times and nothing good has come of it.  It is simply another way for her to feel the 'control' she needs.  She does not want a real resolution or to move on.  If she did, that would be amazing and I would be all for it.  I am making a lot of progress on not taking her accusations to heart.  I have taken them to heart for years.  It is easy to do because there is always an element of truth to everything she says.

What I can share is that I wish I had taken better inventory of what I wanted or felt would be fair before entering the divorce process. I was in a pretty heavy layer of FOG (fear obligation guilt) when I advised that I was seeking a divorce. I felt responsible for harming my kids' lives, for pulling the rug out from under my wife, and for putting all of us into a lot of upheaval. I wasn't thinking about how to protect things that I knew would be in my kid's best interest (like being with me at least half but better the majority of the time), or my best interest (having a finite monetary commitment to helping out my xw and having clear boundaries around interactions and clear plan for selling our family home, etc.). As a result, I am 2.5 years into a divorce, finally have gained equal custody time, have conceded a longer term and more onerous financial commitment and am unburying myself from debt accrued because we only just now sold the family home.

I really encourage you to think about what is right for Woodchuck and Woodchuck's children and take the measures that you can to make that your goal and hopefully reality.

Just my two cents.

I appreciate all your insight!  It really helps me think about things.  My biggest concern is what is best for the kids.  I want was is truly best for them.  I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.  The idea of the kids being separated from one parent really breaks my heart as does the idea of them having to choose who they want to stay with if/when it comes to that.  No child should have to be put in that situation.  I think that counseling for them is a good first step to have a third party help influence what is best for them.  As far as what is right for me... .that is a tough question.  What I want and reality are probably never going to match up.  I still desire a healthy relationship with her.  In reality, I do not see that ever happening.  If she was able to get healthy and we were able to work on our communication etc, I think we could have an amazing relationship.  If I work on myself, things may get marginally better but the scenario will not be what I want and then I have to try to reconcile that with what is best for the kids.  If they were not in the picture, I would be planning to leave as soon as I retire.  As I am sure you understand, with kids in the mix, it is much much more complicated. 

WC

[DivDad]

Just a few comments to throw into the discussion.

1) WC, you said, “I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.” 
I think you should be fighting over custody because it’s good for your children. They will thank you later for fighting for them now.   If the time ever comes to D, maybe plant a flag in your mind that you will not accept less than 50% of custody time. Depending on the state, that is your minimum, non-negotiable item to fight for.  Don’t let the ebb and flow of future D proceedings, issues and/or circumstances sway things. Appeasing a BPD on custody issues never bodes well for you or the children. 

2) You also said, “The idea of the kids being separated from one parent really breaks my heart as does the idea of them having to choose who they want to stay with if/when it comes to that.”
 For most courts, the children really don’t choose. (Unless they are around 16+). They should not be in the position nor have an opportunity to choose.  They are not old enough to know what is best for them, but you do.  The notion that the BPD wants T for the children might be a disguise. My uBPDexw thought the T would make recommendations... .and when she wasn't getting what she wanted, lost interest in T sessions. Ultimately, it’s just you, the BPD and the court making the decision.  You need to fight for what you think is best for the children…which I know you are committed to do.  Nice guys usually don’t know how to fight hard but BPD do. The road might be long, but it will be worth it in the end.

3) Lastly, regarding communication, my court appointed parent coordinated instructed that all email communication only have one subject matter.  If two issues need to be discussed, then two emails need to be generated.  This might not be possible now, but might be a goal to strive for.  Too, if the BPD sends you an email with two or more issues, etc. respond to each issue in separate emails…If possible.  Conversely, try not and send two or more issues to the BPD  in one email.  They usually cherry pick one issue and ignore the others.  Although, some responses might be laced with insults, (ignore them and put that email/issue aside) keep the issue focused on one email/issue discussion.  Just a thought. 

[takingandsending]

Just a few comments to throw into the discussion.

1) WC, you said, “I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.” 
I think you should be fighting over custody because it’s good for your children. They will thank you later for fighting for them now.   If the time ever comes to D, maybe plant a flag in your mind that you will not accept less than 50% of custody time. Depending on the state, that is your minimum, non-negotiable item to fight for.  Don’t let the ebb and flow of future D proceedings, issues and/or circumstances sway things. Appeasing a BPD on custody issues never bodes well for you or the children. 

Thanks, DivDad. This is what I was getting at.

Woodchuck, I felt a lot like you - I would be selfish to fight over custody simply because I want it, but a few people on this board challenged me, sharing what it was like for them growing up with a BPD parent and a parent who didn't fight for custody because of the difficulty of fighting BPD parent or uncertainty that they were doing the right thing. They weren't heart warming stories of a good RS with non-BPD parent. If you are an involved parent, you should have at least 50% time. And as many on the board tried to open my eyes to, for the kids' health and stability, you should go in asking for being the majority custodial parent.

I am now at 50% time, but this is a result of 2 years of stalled efforts and all parties in my collaborative divorce case (except xw) agreeing that it is in the kids' best interest if I were majority custodial parent. You are really the only advocate for your kids. Yes, therapists are advocates, but good ones are reluctant to take sides in divorce proceedings and bad ones generally believe the persuasive blamer parent v. the blamed parent. You have a responsibility to advocate for your kids. Sounds like they are trying to tell you they need help dealing with their mom, too. I just urge you to consider that what you think is right (not fighting over custody), what you think would be harmful (kids being separated from one parent) are admirable but possibly not serving the best interest of your children. The amount of control and manipulation your wife is engaging in will not improve upon separation. Stressful situations rarely improve a pwBPD's responses, typically their dysregulations become exacerbated. It took my xw hearing voices telling her to harm my son for me to accept this. I don't want that for you or your kids.

[ForeverDad]

Perhaps a good way to view the potential conflict is not "I don't want to fight over the kids" but instead "I will fight for the kids and what I see as good for them."  We all tried to avoid conflict and confrontations but when dealing with BPD behaviors, whether diagnosed or not, you have to make a stand for certain important things.  Being passive, appeasing, acquiescing, etc are behaviors that will sabotage your parenting.  This is not a healthy relationship we're discussing, we can't afford to step back in our type of cases.

Part of your mindset may be that you really don't want to split the family.  We all felt that way.  Yet, that split is the only healthy alternative when the conflict is so extreme and the disordered parent won't listen to professional therapy and counseling.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  (They'll probably get married some day, wouldn't you like them to make healthy choices and not picking what they've known so far?)  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation (the earliest quote I could find) on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[worriedStepmom]

My biggest concern is what is best for the kids.  I want was is truly best for them.  I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.  The idea of the kids being separated from one parent really breaks my heart as does the idea of them having to choose who they want to stay with if/when it comes to that.  No child should have to be put in that situation.  I think that counseling for them is a good first step to have a third party help influence what is best for them. 

The therapist is not likely to make a recommendation as to what the custody schedule should be.  That's not the therapist's role - their role is to help the children deal with the situation as it is.  In a divorce, a custody evaluation can take place where the children and the parents talk to a mental health professional or social worker who then makes a recommendation. 

My husband thought the same as you - that SD11's therapist would help us make a decision as to what custody schedule to propose.  My H was resistant to proposing one on his own, so we ended up scrambling at the end (when he finally accepted that the therapist wasn't getting involved in the legal aspects) to come up with a proposal he thought was best for SD11.

We were also adamant in not asking SD11 what she wanted, although we told her if something was bothering her about the schedule she could talk to us about it.  Her uBPD mom, however, is already trying to convince SD11 to go to the judge in a year and demand to live with mom again.   SD11 is so relieved to be out of that environment more often that I can't see that ever happening.

If it comes to a divorce, I highly encourage you to fight for primary custody.  Your son already knows that his mom has big mental health issues.  Your children have one parent who seems to need to exert absolute control (get in the car but I won't tell you why.  Really?) and has little emotional regulation.  Right now, you can be a buffer to that, but if you and your wife separate, then they are left alone with that for a chunk of time.  That is not a healthy environment.

My ex does not have a personality disorder.  When we divorced, I had to do a lot of grieving of the vision I'd had of the kind of family life I would provide to my children.  You'll need to go through the same.  It's tough.

[ForeverDad]

I had a child psychologist for a custody evaluator.  I've heard of some here who were newer lawyers, biased evaluators, etc.  A custody evaluator can be a great resource or set back your case.  Mine was excellent.  It was clear he wanted to try Shared Parenting with a frequent exchange schedule (by then son had turned 5 years old and he recommended a 2-2-3 schedule where one parent had Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent had Wed-Thu overnights and the 3 overnight weekends were alternated).  His initial summary included, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... .Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting fails then Father should have custody... ."  So he was practical and realized equal time Shared Parenting might not be the practical solution but he still wanted to try.  And he was right.  It failed.  About three years later I became Legal Guardian.

I recall too that even before that the court's social worker wrote up the court's parenting investigation.  The temp order had limited me to alternate weekends and an evening in between.  The recommendation was to move me up to equal time.  But the social worker was not licensed to comment about custody and hence the next step was the custody evaluation mentioned above.  Each professional has their little fiefdom (social worker, counselor, custody evaluator, police, children's services, lawyers, etc) and court is the place where the pieces are supposed to be cobbled together.

Back to my story... .  Her lawyer knew how bad the evaluation was for her.  Still, they dragged the divorce out as long as they could - without consequences - because the temp order, which no one ever modified, was hugely in her favor.  Finally, over 21 months into the divorce I walked into court on Trial Day and was greeted with the news she was ready to settle.  They could delay no more.  By that time, I had reached my limit.  Mentally I was prepared for court.  I knew settling would lock us into equal time but I felt I needed an edge, however small.  She had already moved (and would move a couple times more in the years to come) and so I was worried about her moving away and I being forced to follow my son wherever.  So I declared, "I have one term, I become Residential Parent or we start the trial."  She begged.  Even my own lawyer said, it meant nothing, only where the child attended school.  I was adamant.  She blinked.  It was smart of me because after I took charge of school, the school changed its prior "no problems" tune and within weeks they had a list of issues with her.  After one big scene at school they gave me one day to register him in my nearby school district.  Previously they had agreed to allow him to stay in their kindergarten for the final months of the school year.  The reality is that if I had allowed the usual court outcome of "Mother handles schooling" they would never have kicked us out and told us to be some other school's problem.

[DivDad]

ForeverDad is spot on.  During the divorce proceedings, my uexBPD fought me every step of the way. She countered this and countered that…but then buckled at the 11th hour. 

BPD don’t like authority.  They don’t like “outsiders” poking into their world.   My ex tried to spin “the world according to a BPD” on me, my sons, her L and my L, but in the end, I think BPD truly fear the court and a judge. Don’t get discouraged or distracted by the hand grenades that will be lobbed at you. List out your goals, (what’s important to you and the family)  and what you need and want. Then let the dust settle. Let your L know.  You will be challenged many times, but keep the faith. 

[Woodchuck]

I truly appreciate everyone taking time to give their input and sharing their experiences.  I believe that I need to work on changing my mindset a bit after reading what everyone has shared.  It is very overwhelming and honestly quite sad to try to process and think about.  I really appreciate all the support!

WC