Step-Co-Parenting with suspected BPD mother

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Daughters: A is 14yo and B is 11yo.
I've been married for 3 months and we have a great relationship. I've known the kids for almost 6 months.

I've developed a strong relationship with the kids. A has been confiding in me for several months but last night B finally started talking about their mother's behavior. She is somewhat neglectful but mostly she is verbally and emotionally abusive. They have joint legal custody but she has physical custody. We have visitation which averages 2x a week.

I don't know what I expect to get from this but after listening to their stories last night, it's hard to keep my mouth shut. I know that their trust must be maintained and anything I say to their mother will only be harmful.

[isharcanis]

Daughters: A is 14yo and B is 11yo.
I've been married for 3 months and we have a great relationship. I've known the kids for almost 6 months.

I've developed a strong relationship with the kids. A has been confiding in me for several months but last night B finally started talking about their mother's behavior. She is somewhat neglectful but mostly she is verbally and emotionally abusive. They have joint legal custody but she has physical custody. We have visitation which averages 2x a week.

I don't know what I expect to get from this but after listening to their stories last night, it's hard to keep my mouth shut. I know that their trust must be maintained and anything I say to their mother will only be harmful.

[Turkish]

It's good that you are there for them.   

What kinds of things are they saying? What does their father say, or is he hesitant to rock the boat but talking to their mom? What happened with the custody which resulted in them spending majority time with mom?

[david]

I found trust was the most important thing for our two boys. My ex lost their trust because of her behaviors.
 At 14 the courts might listen to her to make a change of circumstances if that is what you are thinking. You would need an attorney in your state to let you know what you can do.

[Panda39]

Hi isharcanis,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

It sounds like your husband’s ex is like my significant other's (SO's) ex (uBPDxw) and is undiagnosed.  What led you to BPD?  I googled "chronic lying" and there was BPD and the shoe fit like Cinderella's Glass Slipper. 

it's hard to keep my mouth shut. I know that their trust must be maintained and anything I say to their mother will only be harmful.

Yes! Nice Job! You took the high road. My mantra when I met my SO’s daughter’s was “do no harm”, it still is.

Can you tell us a little more about the types of things the girls are sharing?  It can help us target tools that might be helpful.

How much do you know about BPD?  That was where I started…What is it?  Why does his ex do the things she’s doing?  Why do my SO and his daughters react like that? What can I do to help/support them? 

I hit my local library and read everything they had to get a good baseline understanding of BPD.
A couple of books on BPD in general that I particularly like are…

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason MS  & Randi Kreger

And

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr

I have also pulled a link to the “Lessons” information on Co-Parenting for you.  There is a ton of information but I want to point out Lesson 5 “Raising Resilient Kids” and “Validation” in particular.

Co-parenting Lessons Link…
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.0

It is likely that the kid’s mom is very focused on herself and doesn’t validate her children’s feelings.  One thing you can do right now is validate their feelings.  This does not mean bad mouth mom.  If you don’t have anything good to say, ask a validating question. Help your step-daughters work through the situation themselves.

Validation is probably pretty intuitive for you but here are a couple samples I've made up…

Daughter “My mom is such a meanie, she wouldn’t let me wear my pink unicorn shirt to school!”
 
Don’t… your mom really is a meanie, I think she sucks as a mom because you can’t wear your shirt!

Do…Gee, honey I wonder why she said no?  What do you think?

Or more realistically…

Daughter “My mom said she would send me to those dance classes I wanted and now she’s mad at me because I got a B on my history test and won’t sign me up!”

Don’t…Wow, your mom is such a liar she always goes back on her word!

Do… I can see you’re upset, I would be disappointed if I couldn’t go to dance class too.  Do you think she might change her mind if she has time to cool off?  By the way I thought the B you got on the History test was really good.

I'm glad you've decided to jump in and join us, there is a lot of support, information and tools to be had here.  Those girls are lucky to have you in their lives... .you will be particularly helpful because you come at it from outside of the family dynamic, you bring a new perspective.

I hope to hear more of your story when you have the chance.

Take Care,
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Unless you have a really good relationship with their mother, which is doubtful, then anything you say, no matter how nicely worded, is likely to be received badly.  You may be perceived as the replacement mother and she may not be able to get past that emotional baggage hurdle.

In the early years of my ex's descent into the xPD world view, she had an assortment of "traumas" that set her back every so often.  I could see how they hit her hard but not that she wouldn't bounce back.  Now, post-marriage and some distance away from a close relationship, I see things more as her getting "triggered".

For that reason I would suggest you keep your comments to bio-mother limited to less sensitive topics until you can sense what you can say productively versus what might instead trigger her.

Validation along with appropriate ideas and guidance are definitely skills to develop with the children.  Often they won't know the precise words or concepts but you can help them find their way from valid observations and concerns to valid conclusions and solutions.

[isharcanis]

Basics: You won’t be surprised that mom and dad had a volatile relationship. Although it wasn’t physical, their fights were epic. Mom would target dad, dad would blow up and the girls would get scared. Now that dad is gone, mom is targeting the older daughter.

As a mother, she views the motherhood as a label and finds the kids a burden. But she loves the extra money and label “single mom.”

•   What kind of things are they saying? What does their father say?
o   Their mother:
   Calls them stupid, fat and other names.
   Says she doesn’t want them and threatening to drop them off at a facility.
   Doesn’t make sure they have clean clothes with holes in their socks.
   Doesn’t spend any time with them unless they nag and nag.
   Can’t manage money
   Blames the 14yo for everything – money, her lack of time, anything bad. Results in epic battles. Expects the younger one to back her up and trash her sister.
   Must always be in conflict. Refuses to accept solutions.
   When they don’t make her happy, says they don’t want her to be happy and threatens to kill herself.
   Threatens to cut them off from her family, especially tell their grandparents that they have been bad.
   Had the 14yo come over and lie to me, saying she wanted to play the guitar so her mom could pawn it. I didn’t let her have it.
   Says their father is “evil” and recounts things he did during their marriage and maybe some extra.


•   What happened with the custody which resulted in them spending majority time with mom?
o   Alabama law is very biased for the mothers. We have the standard custody arrangement which is one day a week and every other weekend.
o   He didn’t want to drag the divorce out for the kids.

•   At 14, the courts might listen to her.
o   At 14 she can choose but she won’t leave her mom.

•   What led you to BPD?
•   How much do you know about BPD?

I’m a mental health professional. My FiL figured it out years ago and she fits the DSM-V. I’ve also used dialectical behavioral therapy for myself.

•   Validate their feelings

We have an excellent relationship and I’m the only one they talk to about what their mom does. We talk in a very honest and non-emotional way. I tell them that what their mother is doing is wrong. It’s not their fault.

I’m an applied behavior analyst and although I’ve never been a parent, I’m quite good at it. My husband follows my lead. They are being given loads of reinforcement and no punishment.

The changes in them during the 6 mos I’ve known them is visible to everyone (not sure about mom). The 11yo will talk your ear off but the dance moms told me she had gone from talking too much to barely talking at all. She’s back talking. They go to dance competitions and they have several dances and have to show up at the right time. Two weeks ago she insisted on not having help. At first her dad said “she’d better not mess a dance” but I said that it was win-win. She either learns a lesson or she succeeds. That meant she felt free to make mistakes.

I’ve worked hard to teach them that no one is going to yell at them and obviously it’s paid off. I told her mother about it and she acted happy. But XXXX would never do that if her mom had been there.

The 14yo slept in for the first time in years and now does it regularly. She wakes up tense at mom’s house. They stayed here last night and had to come back after school to get their stuff after school. They talked to their dad in the bedroom as the were packing and then they came in the living room afterward. The 11yo sat on the couch right up against me. Multiple times she laid her head on me and she said “I love you” at least 5 times on her way out the door.


•   Come from the outside
This has been very important. First, my husband got validation that he was not crazy. I’ve seen her daughter cry, unable to speak because of what she was saying on the phone. I’m not affected emotionally by this except for sometimes really wanting to confront her and other times just being exhausted from holding it together. My husband has PTSD from the marriage and I’m dealing with his flashbacks. He started therapy today.


A lot of things happened tonight but I'll update that later.

[ForeverDad]

Boundaries by Henry Cloud is excellent and recommended by everyone.  They're crucial because people with BPD (pwBPD) abhor limits set by others, as in, nature abhors a vacuum.  Set a boundary and it's effectively seen as a challenge to crash it.  And worse, once a boundary has been found weak, it will entice more pushing, more sabotaging.

In time the daughters may be able to set some boundaries, simple ones at first, such as, "Mom, if you keep saying that I will hang up."  Of course, expect initial attempts to set boundaries to be opposed, a pushback to the past Normal.  Around here that's called Extinction Bursts.  Actually, any normal boundaries will always be opposed, just get past the initial overwhelming extremes.

Excellent that their dad is working alongside you.  Or that he's happy to have you working alongside him.  They're his daughters after all.  Together you are making a good team for long term success.

[david]

Our oldest wanted to live with me in the beginning. Our youngest had no opinion and his solution was 50/50. This was expressed to me by their mom so I don't really know for sure. However, ex made some kind of suggestion about it in court and the judge went ballistic saying children would never be separated in his court. Even with that ex was given primary custody and I saw the boys EOW and one night during the week which is pretty much the way things are done around here.
It took around three years from that point to get things changed to 50/50. My biggest reason was ex made no effort to help our boys with their school work. I was able to show that the boys did over 95% of the school work when with me even though I had limited time during the school year. My petition stated the reason and ex dragged the hearing date through legal means for close to two years. She never changed her behavior with school work during that entire time. I copied every homework during that time and had a pile over 6 inches tall. I made a single sheet of paper that spelled the percentages out, etc.
 I believe my ex likes the "single mom" label too. It gives her the victim look which she relishes.
Our oldest was the one she focused her anger on the most after we separated too. I think that has to do with the fact that the older they get the more independent they become and less controllable. Both of our boys learned to avoid her when they are with her. We had a custody eval and the evaluator talked to each boy separately for about an hour each. Later he met with ex and I. He said he wanted to talk about the things that concerned him from his conversations with the boys. I sat there for the hour and listened. Everything the boys were telling me they also told the evaluator. The evaluator said he asked both boys to describe a typical day at moms and at dads. He pointed out that neither boy mentioned any kind of interaction with their mom. They cooked for themselves, washed their clothes, etc. He asked them where their mom was and their answer was either she was in her room or she went out. The way they described it was that was what was "normal" at their moms. They didn't say it disparagingly but it was just the way it was.
If you gather enough evidence, at least in Pennsylvania, you can go back to court with a change in circumstances and modify the original custody order. Penn. has become better for fathers and custody in the last 10 years so that was also a big help.

[Panda39]

david is right just like him many here have gone back to court to request an adjustment to custody.  The initial custody decision is not necessarily set in stone.  So if you and your husband are interested, going back to court is an option.

My SO had a ugly 2 year divorce.  He originally had the same schedule your husband has... .every other weekend (EOW) and Wednesday night for dinner.

He was able to document neglect on the part of his ex... .not getting their younger daughter to the dentist for months when she had a toothache (he finally found someone who was open weekends and took her).  Pulling their older daughter out of school (against the wishes of her dad, the advice of her teachers and school principal) for a year to home school through an on-line program.  Older daughter did nothing... .0.0 GPA freshman year of High School.  This "A" student screwed up her college options with the assistance/support of her mother.  School attendance was an issue for the younger daughter a stomachache on a Monday meant staying home all week.  Mom also had several evictions, was couch surfing and didn't/wouldn't/still doesn't have a job... .there was no stability.

When it was all said and done, my SO had the girls 5 days a week and one weekend.  In 2015 after their mother pulling some horrendous stuff... .sending D18(at the time) to college promising to pay what financial didn't cover and never actually doing it, putting D18 in the hole to the tune of $15,000 and sending their younger daughter on a one-way ticket out of state to Camp only there was no camp (she did not pay for it that year and we found out had not paid for it the previous year when younger daughter did attend) stranding her several states away, both daughters voted with their feet and moved in full time with their dad.  D21(now) has chosen to have no contact with her mother and D17(now) is low contact mostly phone/text with a very occasional lunch or coffee that only reminds her of how messed up her mom is.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that things are fluid and not necessarily set in stone. 

If you are interested in pursing additional custody, we can give you some pointers that can help... .we've been there and have our experiences and strategies we can share.

Panda39

[david]

Another thing that I noticed is once I got 50/50 things got better. I think ex viewed it as a loss of her power/control and it took the wind out of her sails. She gave me more time after that. I always said yes and never said anything more than that.
By then the boys also avoided her as much as possible when with her. From what our youngest says, who is still with her half the time, she stays in her room and sleeps most of the time. Could be depression.

[isharcanis]

Thanks so much for all the supportive and informative comments. It’s amazing how similar our families are. I bet there’s even more to discover.

Forever Dad:

Boundaries: Over time, we’ve found ways to shield DH from her button pushing. He now refuses to argue with her or let her abuse him.  She has always been civil with me with 2 exceptions; when I confronted her while she was making the older daughter cry and I grabbed the phone. The second was last night when I’ll talk about later. She still doesn’t try her abusive stuff on me. She’ll never be able to get her hooks into me like she has with them.

In time the daughters may be able to set some boundaries

The older one tries but mom will keep going, cutting deeper and deeper until she breaks her. She witnessed my confrontation with mom and learned some things including “you can’t use things that happened years ago to justify your behavior today.”

The sad part is that they crave their mother’s attention and will put up with all of this to get it. The older daughter talks about her mom like a drug she just can’t shake.

david:

This was expressed to me by their mom so I don't really know for sure.

One of my first goals was getting honestly out of the girls. They’ve learned to hide and lie. They are now free to tell me they don’t like my cooking and other things that used to terrify them.

I wish she would be that neglectful. She does just enough. I also fear that they would lie to the evaluator and try to paint their mom in the best light possible.

Panda39:

We have talked about going back to court. She is failing to live up to the agreement but most of our info comes from the kids which means we can’t use it.

And like david, I wish she was that neglectful. It’s just enough.

Is anybody on here from Alabama?

_____________________________________________

Last night was very exciting. The older daughter texted to say that they couldn’t go to dance practice today because mom had to pay for a new battery in her car. Mom got a $20k raise and double pay for a month but she can’t swing $150 ( I think) for dance and whatever for a new battery.

I asked how much the dance workshop was. She said “We’ll be fine. We’re fine.” I said “I asked a question.” She knows me well enough to know I was prodding her and not irritated. “She'll get mad at us because we are "blackmailing" her into doing things by asking you.” I repeated the question and she said “We’ll be fine. Please.” I knew the please was serious. I followed with “I always say that I won't "write a check you have to cash" meaning I won't do anything that you have to suffer for. Am I correct in understanding that you would rather miss the workshop than put up with the consequences? Or are you saying it's ok because you know we don't have much money? Please be truthful.” The reply was “This is [mom]. Per our agreement, please do not encourage my daughter to talk to you about me behind my back. It's against the settlement.” That is not true. DH wrote her (not daughter) back to say so. I texted her with images from the settlement, things she does daily that are actually in the settlement:

- Both parents shall enourage the minor children to love, respect and honor the other parent. Neither of them shall alienate or attempt to alienate or dimish the affection of the minor children for the other parent, or disparage or allow others to disparage the other parent to or in the presence of the minor children. The parties understand and agree that the designations of "father" and "mother", or similar designations, shall refer to each of them only and not to third parties.
- The Court expects children to be insulated to the fullest extent possible from the conflict between their parents. They should not be made to be confidants of a parent, and should be encouraged to love, honor and respect both parents and their respective families. Parents should act accordingly in the presence of the children.

She routinely refers to my husband as "evil" to the kids and lists all of his sins - real and imagined - to them, including infidelity. She has told them he was unfaithful throughout the marriage but he was faithful until the breakup period. She's made up things about me like how I do illegal drugs.

- During any period of overnight visitation and/or exercise of custody with the parties' minor children, neither party shall allow any person to whom he or she is not related by blood or marriage, and with whom he or she is involved in a romantic and/or sexual relationship, to stay overnight in the same place with the parties' children.

Under normal circumstances, I would not be judgmental of a person in his position but his living with the kids makes it different. He is a recovering heroin addict (I respect that) who is a felon because he stole money from an attorney. He is jobless, carless and moved in with them when he got kicked out of the Salvation Army shelter. Their money situation got much worse after he moved in. The children were forced to lie about him to us. They now trust us to keep their secrets.


The most interesting part of this is that she identified my asking about suffering the consequences as my asking about her. Confession? Anyway DH called the daughter back and she said mom and felon live-in boyfriend (total violation of settlement) had gone for a walk. We didn’t hear anything else until the older daughter called DH this morning saying mom’s car wouldn’t start. When the older daughter came over to get the jumper cables, the younger one came with her. I’m suspicious she may have been sent as a spy. Eventually DH went over and gave them a jump. The miraculously, she was able to afford a new battery and the dance workshop. I suspect last night was just an emotional ploy to continue that narrative (emotional abuse) that their money problems are due to dance. DH gives her enough money every month to pay all of her rent and utilities. Her $60k job is not enough to pay for the rest.

[livednlearned]

Coparenting with a partner whose ex is BPD is pretty challenging 

How can we be most helpful as you navigate these issues (not likely to go anywhere soon... .)

Are you finding yourself becoming more involved in the drama with mom?

[isharcanis]

livednlearned

How can we be most helpful as you navigate these issues (not likely to go anywhere soon... .)

The most amazing thing so far is hearing such similar stories.

DH was diagnosed with PTSD yesterday. Are there other people here who have PTSD from their intimate partner relationships with a person who is uBPD (undiagnosed, right?)

Do other people consider their relationships to be abusive?

Does anyone have comments or suggestions from the info I’ve given so far?

Should I talked to the 14yo who is her mother’s parent about this?




Are you finding yourself becoming more involved in the drama with mom?

She sent this a few weeks ago:

“I have to tell you that I barely know you, but from what I can easily tell by what I see and from what my girls tell me, you have an incredible heart that has a rare capacity to recognize the best in someone no matter... .I do not say that felicitously, but very sincerely. I wanted to pull [DH] through all that happened with and to him, but I finally came to a point where I realized I had gotten in (and needed to be in) protective mode and thus defense mode.  I don't know how you do it, but you are what [DH] needs. You are also so very precious to my girls. I hope they bring you joy, too.”

Gag! As you can see, mom tries to butter me up. I always joke that I need insulin to read her messages. She’ll send me the sweetest text about how she’s not trying to be a bother while I hear DH arguing with her in the other room. This is why we try to make her communicate through me. That is a violation of the agreement (not communicate through a 3rd party) but we’re more than happy to show the judge how abusive she is to him. A couple months ago we had the incident where I took the phone away when she was emotionally abusing the 14yo. Then we had the incident last night. I’m going to be as nice as possible to her but I’m no pushover. Last night, she tried to say I violated the agreement, so I sent parts of the agreement she violates (a lot) daily. I’ve always said that unless she has a weapon, she can bring it on. I’m not looking for a fight but she won’t run over me either.

[Turkish]

That message sounds like she was trying to triangulate you and obtain validation for herself that your DH is indeed a problem. 

[isharcanis]

Her entire life is based on the evils of DH. The girls dance and all the dance mom thought he was satan. When the moms found out about his past, they confronted her and it became clear who was number one. They met satan's new wife about the same time and were shocked that I was so nice. There's one mom who is very close to the family. She called me one day and I told her everything. Over the next couple of months, the scales fell off everyone's eyes. Two weeks ago they had a big dinner. He went without me. They tried to get him to say something bad about her and he wouldn't. When they asked about the guy living with her, he said that he hasn't come up with an option that won't make things worse for the kids. They were so impressed. The next morning, the most cynical mom reported to me about it. At the end, she said "seems like a nice guy." DH nearly cried like a baby when I told him. He'd had trouble going to dance competitions for years because everyone thought he was evil.

[ForeverDad]

Being perceived by the ex as evil is a typical situation we face.  I separated when my son was still 3 years old, she got temp custody and majority time.  Divorce was final two years later with equal time and Shared Parenting.  As the custody evaluator speculated, SP failed and I went back for custody and majority time.  GAL agreed with custody but hoped mother having child support would sooth her behaviors. He was 9 but it didn't change her behaviors, I went back again for majority time, yet another 1.5 year court process, and got it when he was nearly 12, though only during the school year.  (Yes, some school teachers testified about her scenes.  Apparently court listens more to school issues than what us reasonably normal parents report.)  Court gave her "one more chance" by letting her keep equal time during the 2.5 months of summer.  Court also said I'd have to file separately if I wanted her to pay child support.  I never went back.

Son is now entering his junior year of high school.  He spends most of his time here with me.  Even when she works, she drops him off to spend the day here.  With less than two years to go before he's an adult and completed school, I really think court is in the past.

However, she still tells me she hates me.  I've had to accept What Is.

[isharcanis]

They have been taught from a very young that dad is a bad person who is to blame for everything. The older daughter started seeing that dad was angry but it was mom's fault. Since the divorce, they've seen almost no anger from him. Since he and I have been together, the only time they saw the old dad was during a flashback. It's pretty clear that mom is still unstable and cruel but dad is totally different. They have really bonded with me, telling me things they've never told anyone. I'm the one they turn to when they need something. They're still a little afraid of him and I've never been anything but kind to them. He picked someone the opposite of their mother, always kind and supportive plus nearly impossible to get riled up.

Reading some of the resources Panda gave me, I see that we're in good shape. I'm actually a professional who teaches parents so I came into this with the skills needed. That's why they started accidentally calling me mom when they'd known me 3 months and I'm the one they turn to when they have problems. When the older one got chewed out by her mom, I'm the one who held her while she cried. 

We talk about their autonomic nervous system responses. I simplify it by saying their amygdalae are the alarms in their brains. When they go off, your heart rate goes up, you start to sweat, etc. Because of their experiences with dad being angry their amygdalae go off more easily and for longer. When their dad had his flashback, I had told him that I was irritated by something. His amygdala forgot that he was married to me and started preparing for a fight with mom. Even though he could not choose whether to have that reaction, he could make choices about his behavior and he should never have driven around with them in the car. If that ever happens again, they are to tell him to let them out at McDonald's or something. If he resists, remind him that I said so. I never excuse his behavior during the marriage and neither does he.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how I've been talking to them about their mother. I never trash their mom like "Your mother is _______." It's always about her behavior. When they are crying and telling me about something (verbal/emotional abuse), I tell them that I'm sorry this happened. When the older one says "it's ok," I say "no it isn't. It's wrong." I tell the older one that it's wrong she has to be the adult in her house. Without emotion or judgment, we treat mom like an obstacle to be worked around. We strategize like "what if you did x?" I'm also careful not to do things that they'll get in trouble for unless they want me to. If mom won't take them to dance class, I will take them but only if it's worth it to them because she's going to have a bad reaction.

The one thing I see here is that we need to focus on validating and reinforcing mom. It's so hard not to hate her for the way she hurts her (now our) children. But that is probably the best way. I set some boundaries last night so maybe it's time to be nice. I'll work with DH and the older kid on doing it too.

[Turkish]

You sound like you've been great validating the girls.  

This book is a quick read and its authors trained under Marsha Linehan. It might help you pick up a few more tips:

The Power of Validation (for parents) - Karyn D. Hall, PhD

The one thing I see here is that we need to focus on validating and reinforcing mom. It's so hard not to hate her for the way she hurts her (now our) children. But that is probably the best way. I set some boundaries last night so maybe it's time to be nice. I'll work with DH and the older kid on doing it too.

Validating is good to reduce conflict, and both girls could learn validation techniques that will be helpful for life in general.  The line here,  however, might be thin between that and feeling that they may be responsible for their mother's feelings.  As a PSI (Parent, Sibling. In-law) kid with a borderline mother,  my ears perk up. She's already likely communicating that to them emotionally. It's hard to say if it's crossed the line into emotional incest,  but D14 seems the primary target at this point.  

As one of my friends put it to me indelicately many years ago,  "that mother has all kinds of issues,  but her poor little   loves her anyway because he doesn't know any better." (My friend had a likely BPD or even schizophrenic mother,  it was bad).

The PSI board on this site is full of members who struggle with that conundrum.  How much do I tolerate? What's my responsibly or role? She's my mother! And the more insidious thing which may lurk inside: what will others think of me if I'm perceived as a bad child who doesn't love my mother?

It's good that they have you.  I never had a loving step-parent, but I had a "safe" family nearby, and a few teachers in high school who stepped in to guide me when I was lost.  They made a huge difference in my life.  

[isharcanis]

D14 has replaced her father as both the "adult" and as the source of all thing terrible aka mom's target. They've had conversations about how similar their lives have been. She's very rational about the whole thing and could use techniques and see them as such. Her current dream is to get her mother to budget.

I've told her that terribly abused kids still have a need for their mom. She describes her need for her mom like a drug habit she can't kick. I'm filling as much of the role as I can but freely acknowledge there's a part I can never fill.

I'm sorry you didn't have a step parent to help you. Religious people think I was put in this family by God. I needed this life and they needed me. You'd think our parents would be horrified when we got married so quickly but everyone who knows us is thrilled. I'm good at relationships and my husband follows my lead. We set an example for the kids. Rather than fight about money, the kids see us trying to get the other one to take what cash we have left. I'm more open with them than I would normally be about our conflicts because I want them to see how things can be solved respectfully. I tell them how their dad's tailgating made me nervous. I asked him to stop and since he wants me to be happy, he did. Road trips aren't hours of mom telling the kids how terrible their dad is and dad getting angry. We talk and laugh. When dad made a wrong turn and the 11yo ended up peeing on the side of the road, we laughed about it.

I've also had to teach the kids about female hygiene. I took D14 to get fitted for a bra. Her mom calls us their "good family" as part of her pity party. -    Yes, I need more compassion.

[Turkish]

What do you mean by "dad's tailgating?"

Sad that you had to step in to teach her about becoming a woman when mom didn't... .but good that you are there. 

[livednlearned]

The only thing I'm not sure about is how I've been talking to them about their mother.

I have two step daughters who have been in my life for 6 years. They are now 21 and 23.

It is very seductive to be the white knight in these relationships and play an outsized role in their lives. It's hard to admit this, but for me, I was getting something out of being in a one-up position to their mom. I had a T who refers to that feeling as secret glee. It's a pretty subtle and complex feeling, and part of a packet of codependent behaviors I've worked hard to sort out. Still a work in progress  

I also discovered that I have a self-care line in the sand and I think it's healthy not only for me, but for them. As much as I would like to get in there and fix everything that's broken I do them no favors allowing myself to be triangulated with their mom.

When I sense I am allowing myself to triangulate or become emotionally invested in a drama, I bounce out. I stick to asking them validating questions and don't try to solve things for them.

That has taken a surprising amount of self restraint on my part  

I think it has paid off tho. My step daughters changed a lot in the teen/young adulthood years. To different degrees, and to my surprise, they began to exhibit some of the same behaviors that disturbed them about their mom, especially when they started having intimate relationships of their own and wrestling with the stresses of living independently (more or less). Validating them has helped, but me having healthy boundaries has probably been equally if not more important.

I try to stay in my lane. They can cruise up in the lanes next to me but we stay in our lanes  

I have brought a lot of healing and healthy skills into this family, and I am willing to continue doing so while making my well-being priority number one. It's what makes this whole circus work.  

[ForeverDad]

And at the same time be aware that there are limits to "validating and reinforcing mom".  How much she will respond and change without a neutral professional guiding her, well, is unknown.  Late in life in 2011 the early pioneering professional on BPD, Marsha Linehan, revealed that she of all people too suffered with BPD.  The original NYTimes article.  She is the exception to the rule who found a way to help herself and accept help, nearly all suffering with BPD need an emotionally neutral guiding professional.  Neutral is crucial because the Borderline emotional baggage is immense and a strong barrier for them to listen to those emotionally close to them.  I recall the author of "I Hate You! Don't Leave Me!" writing that she never ever even touched her therapist, keeping a therapeutic distance, not until they hugged on her Graduation Day.

I'm only cautioning you that there may be a limit to what you or the others can do regarding the mother.  Though of course not ignoring her, ponder focusing the majority of your attention on your husband and the girls.  I'm sure you're already doing that, but those are my thoughts.

[GaGrl]

My legal residence is now Alabama (getting ready for retirement close to salt water), but I have a second residence in Georgia because I'm still working. I've lived in Florida also. All three SE states are conservative in parenting schedules and custody arrangements.

I have step-parented for 13 years - DH has two daughters and a son, all about 3 years apart. They were all in their 20s when we married, and much damage had been done by their uNPD/BPD mother. She is, as we say in the South, a "piece of work." And yes, my DH has complex PTSD. He was military, and each of his absences resulted in serial infidelities that she never bothered to hide, until she didn't even wait for his absences. The children went through a period of losing respect for him, because he wouldn't divorce her. Now they understand better why he stayed.

 I've come to three learnings over the years, thanks to this board and a terrific therapist:

1) Listen, listen, listen and validate, validate, validate.

2) Maintain boundaries with the ex (we refer to them as boundaries of concertina wire).

3) Role model a loving, intimate, marriage of respect and individual independence.

Still doesn't keep me from reacting to Ex's nonsense sometimes with an internal scream. However, I am much less angry than when I realized what I had married into and more sad that she is so miserable in her skin.

[isharcanis]

We just found out that they don't have lunch money. She's been getting 2 paychecks for the last 2 months; it's only the second week of school but I'm sure her boyfriend has cigarettes.

We don't know what to do? Possible options:

- Let them come over and pack a lunch?
- Call her?
- Alert the school? (Can do for 11yo but not 14yo)

[isharcanis]

False alarm. They have money. They're just going to try to get us to pay so she doesn't have to.

[ForeverDad]

That's what child support is for, among other things.  If your husband is paying child support, then it's on her.

I must admit that during the years I paid child support, and since then, I also paid for school lunches.  However, my ex may not have made the best financial choices but she did work hard at her chosen profession.

[isharcanis]

She is paid quite well but cannot manage her money. I think she makes about $55k and gets $1,500/month from him. Cost of living here is quite low. But she also has to buy cigarettes, food and other things for her boyfriend whose presence is a violation of the settlement.

[isharcanis]

I keep hearing about boundaries and want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Could you cite a few examples?

Here's something we do. When she starts "doing her number" on DH (triggers flashback), he tells her she has to talk to me and then blocks her if she doesn't stop.

[ForeverDad]

Is this some level of triangulation?  I'm not saying this won't work in your family dynamic, but it can get unhealthy.

Are these ex's phone calls?  Perhaps he should tell her to communicate only about the parenting issues and tell her to put it in writing, either emails or possibly texts and he will reply later as appropriate.  Then he can tell you to be his buffer (without potentially triggering his ex by telling her you're getting involved) to scan/review them and let him know which merit a response and what that response could be.  If she keeps calling, hang up or don't answer, she's been informed to communicate in writing unless there is some sort of emergency with the children.  Would that work better?

As for her financial problems, she's an adult, she's not married to him anymore, he can't fix her (you can't either) and therefore he shouldn't get involved with her affairs.  (Oh, was that a pun too?)

Edit:  In my early years here I thought of boundaries as something the ex had to comply with.  But before long it became clear the ex-spouses would rather trample boundaries than observe them.  So eventually I learned from others here that boundaries are for us.  How so?  Rather than telling ex, "You must (or must not) do ___."  Well, that sometimes is like waving a red cloth in front of a bull.  Instead, our boundary is slightly different, "If you do (or don't) do ___ then I will (or won't) do ___."

Examples:
If you barge into my home uninvited then I will call the police.
If you refuse to return the children at the scheduled time without good cause then I will call the police or whatever is appropriate.
If you claim the children as exemptions in my tax filing years then I will file my taxes with proof that you did not have authority to do so.
If you communicate after 10 pm (email, text, phone) when it is not an emergency (or appropriately urgent) then I will not respond until the next day at a reasonable time, as appropriate.

[david]

Good examples. You just say what you will do in a situation. You must follow through all the time in order for it to stick so make sure you understand the implications of a boundary. Some of my boundaries were tested from time to time and you should expect the same.
My ex tried disregarding our court order. Anything that took time away from our kids I met with the police being called. It didn't take long for ex to stop.
Other things I let slide because I just see it escalating. Our order states that when I pick the boys up at her place she is to remain in her residence until I drive away. In the beginning she would walk to my car. I had a video camera and pointed it at her. She would turn around and walk back to her place. She then would stand in her driveway. I let that go since she wasn't approaching me and if I went to court I would look like the problem.
If you have to call the police make sure you tell them you want the police report and get a copy. It may or may not help later.