Potential fallout from seeing my family w/out BPDw?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi everyone,

The Issue: this fall, a  cousin of mine is getting married.  all my extended family is planning on coming back for it.

I've been dreading planning this, because I know my wife will insist we spend as little time as possible on the trip with my family.

Anyways... .after a couple days recently where I could tell the waters were getting "choppy" on some unrelated issues, this all blew up.  She was Screaming, accusing me of already planning this trip without her input (not true) etc.

Wife initially said I could go to the wedding alone.  She wouldn't let me take our boys.

Then today she said she won't go but doesn't care what I decide to do, and can take the boys as long as I'd like. She didn't say this nicely, of course, and acted like it was a punishment.

SO here's my question:  Has anyone else navigated basically having separate families like this?

Also, I suspect despite her statements that she'd prefer to stay home, that isn't really what she wants.  she'd prefer to go and make a scene so I have to chase after her, and spend hours talking about what upsets her... i.e... "quality time" for her.  Filling the bottomless pit.  

Honestly, I wish she would just stay home, instead of me walking on pins and needles the whole time waiting for her to blowup over something ridiculous.  In the past in similar situations when I suggested it, she hinted she wasn't "comfortable" with our kids seeing my family without her, implying they'd like abuse our kids or something.  

Thoughts?  

[PeteWitsend]

Hi everyone,

The Issue: this fall, a  cousin of mine is getting married.  all my extended family is planning on coming back for it.

I've been dreading planning this, because I know my wife will insist we spend as little time as possible on the trip with my family.

Anyways... .after a couple days recently where I could tell the waters were getting "choppy" on some unrelated issues, this all blew up.  She was Screaming, accusing me of already planning this trip without her input (not true) etc.

Wife initially said I could go to the wedding alone.  She wouldn't let me take our boys.

Then today she said she won't go but doesn't care what I decide to do, and can take the boys as long as I'd like. She didn't say this nicely, of course, and acted like it was a punishment.

SO here's my question:  Has anyone else navigated basically having separate families like this?

Also, I suspect despite her statements that she'd prefer to stay home, that isn't really what she wants.  she'd prefer to go and make a scene so I have to chase after her, and spend hours talking about what upsets her... i.e... "quality time" for her.  Filling the bottomless pit.  

Honestly, I wish she would just stay home, instead of me walking on pins and needles the whole time waiting for her to blowup over something ridiculous.  In the past in similar situations when I suggested it, she hinted she wasn't "comfortable" with our kids seeing my family without her, implying they'd like abuse our kids or something.  

Thoughts?  

[PeteWitsend]

Also, I suspect that even if she agrees I can take the kids and go myself, she will do everything she can to sabotage this, especially as the date gets closer in time. 

[formflier]

Thank her for her flexibility.  Let her know you will plan to take her and the boys, with the understanding that she may choose to stay or go.  (after all... .you aren't demanding or controlling)

Make the point that you want her to go, so that you can celebrate together and have some together time.

You go... .

Take the boys... although if she somehow makes that impossible (goes on trip with them somewhere else)... .you go to wedding.  Don't save her from her actions in that case... .let people know you are perplexed and drop it.

Keep a  spot open for her.

This reminds me somewhat of my trip to see my Mom after my Dad's funeral.  We had funeral... .then were apart for a week or so, and then were back together for Christmas.

My wife did everything she could to sabotage.  Luckily my P helped keep me focused and then my wife (at the last minute) went as was super supportive, acted like she was always supportive.


FF

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks, FF, that's good advice,

couple follow questions:

1) I confided the situation to a friend, and they said "Do NOT go without your W.  That's a big step toward divorce.  figure something out."  I didn't go into it, but my friend is obviously not in tune with the whole BPD thing, and maybe assumes my wife has some grounds for being upset.

and while it might sound harsh, I'm not really interested in compromising on the duration, because it's already still a short trip for the amound of travel required, and we probably won't go see my family again this year, so unless they come visit us, which, given BPDw's open hostility to them at this point, it's not likely.

PLUS last April we went abroad to see W's family, stayed nearly two weeks, and my MIL now lives with us.  Yet, 3 full days with my family + travel is too much?  BS.

2) this trip requires air travel, so that complicates booking a seat.  I'd also need one for my MIL.  I'd have to check refundability issues. 

[formflier]

  I'd also need one for my MIL.    

Why?

[RolandOfEld]

Also, I suspect that even if she agrees I can take the kids and go myself, she will do everything she can to sabotage this, especially as the date gets closer in time. 

Hi PeteWitsend, YES YES YES YES YES. I am in exactly the same boat right now. I miss my family in the US so deeply (I live in my wife's country in Asia) and a chance has come up. My company wants to fly me to the US on business in September. I could pad the trip with some vacation days and take the kids. My wife works so no way she could join, but she would get a week vacation from kids. Its the perfect plan... .but I am terrified to propose it. Even worse, if she says yes, I am totally afraid she will sabotage it the night before we leave. I already cancelled a biz trip to the UK just in anticipation of chaos.

I think FF's advice applies well. That said, does your family have any awareness of the situation? It might help if they were prepared for any contingencies (she steals your ticket, hides your luggage, etc).

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld

[PeteWitsend]

Why?

Well, we can't really leave her alone.  I mean, we could, but it's 5 days
or so, and people in my family want to meet her.

[PeteWitsend]

Okay, so UPDATE:

I came home early yesterday because we had orientation for my oldest's new school.  we all went together

when we got home we were sitting around with the kids and she asked if I wanted to talk.  I said yes, so we went upstairs.  she said that she was sorry "we" got in a fight, and "screamed at eachother."  

this was followed by a question of whether I really wanted her to go... .(the answer was YES.)

the discussion got bogged down a couple times by her trying to argue I was to blame for escalating it, and her usual "he said/she said" BS, but I cut that off by telling her "Look, we disagree, and it doesn't matter since we're not going to convince eachother of anything.  let's just plan this trip together and move on."

That seemed to do the trick.  Everything ended well.

I always laugh (quietly, and to myself) about how hilariously bizarre her characterizations of what I say during arguments can get.

I understand she invents them so she can avoid admitting she was the one who took it from 0 to 60.  I guess a partial admission and apology is better than none.  

I do wonder sometimes if she accidentally convinces herself of "the truth" when
coming up with her stories.  

Like yesterday, her claim was I angrily presented my plan for our trip and told her take it or leave it, and *only then* did she get upset.  

That could not be further from the truth.  She asked  if we could plan the trip now, and I said okay.  I  literally started with the phrase "I was thinking we arrive this day since that's when everyone is arriving." and I got a hostile "who's 'everyone,' your mom?" 

Then from there she took it to 11, screaming about how "I planned this whole thing already with my mom" and stayed at 11. 

In some other cases, I've just asked her "If I really did that, why are you still even here?  That's horrible."  And she usually goes with a "well, maybe you didn't do or say EXACTLY that, but that's what it felt like to me you were saying... ."

Oh well.  

[Red5]

I always laugh (quietly, and to myself) about how hilariously bizarre her characterizations of what I say during arguments can get... .

My u/BPD Wife does this all the time too.

And she usually goes with a "well, maybe you didn't do or say EXACTLY that, but that's what it felt like to me you were saying... ."

= "emotional reasoning"... .also "magic thinking".

Sometimes when u/BPD Wife has the you you you guns a blazing, she will yell at me, and say, "STOP yelling at me"... .hmmm.

Red5

[formflier]

Hey Pete,

What is the latest with the trip planning?

FF

[PeteWitsend]

Well, the trip is planned.  We're doing everything I hoped to do, more or less as requested. 

We'll see how it goes -in practice - next month.

We talked to my mom the weekend after planning and worked out her coming for a visit a couple weekends sooner than that, so we'll see how that goes as well. 

I expect her to try to trigger something, and claim it was all to see if she could "trust" me or some BS, about being on her "side" or my mom's side. It could be anything, like if I agree with my mom that Mexican food is good or something, that's a referendum on my commitment to my wife... .

 If not, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

It's a fine line, because I am personally sick of this nonsense from her.  I get caught between choosing to take careful walk through her minefield of emotions, or saying "SCREW THIS" and walking around it without her.  It's even more difficult to be patient when she forces a choice between family and her, and indulges in irrational thoughts like if I show any love for other family members, it means I love them more than her, and other BS like that.  it's one thing for me to have to deal with it... .I married her... .but it sucks for family members that don't get to see us much.

[formflier]

I would encourage you to think through how you can say what you just said... .but in a nicer... more direct way when/if she tries to make you pick sides.

Perhaps ask her directly if she is asking you to?

Stay centered... if she wants to flip out... .let her... I might even encourage you to use the word "nonsense", if it was used carefully.

"When this nonsense is over... I look forward to a conversation with you."

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I get the "you're on their side" nonsense too. Fortunately my husband's relatives live on the opposite coast, so we seldom see them. But what has always been troubling to me is if I'm having too good a time with one of his sisters, then that will trigger him--"You're on her side."

The last time this happened, I tried to JADE my way out of it, and of course, only made matters worse.

But it's a weird type of thinking--that I have to be distant to other people so that he remembers that he's still #1 in my world. Like I'd even think of comparing him to his sister. It's just another example of how insecure pwBPD can be. 

Best to not participate in this "sides" business. Easy to say... .

[PeteWitsend]

FF-

Thanks.  yeah, I think that's good advice, specifically about revisiting the issue when things calm down.  I just have to remember to stay calm.  It also helps somewhat that I've discussed her issues and the fights with my immediate family, and told them not to take attacks from her personally.

Cat-

It's so hard not to JADE when they draw other people into it, especially family members I care about.  my instinct is to try to resolve it all, because I do love and care about everyone involved and want to protect them (BPDw included).

In a twisted way, I get the sense that once she realized I would do that, she realized she had the perfect stick with which to "poke" me with.

and by "poke" I mean "erupt in hysterical screaming arguments over completely out of the blue whenever she gets triggered"

[PeteWitsend]

The other thing I'm struggling with is learning to take fights on a case-by-case basis and resolve them as they arise, rather than remembering them all together as a sign of an unworkable future together.

Like when the screaming starts now - even if it's been a few months since the last bad episode - I remember the times we nearly got divorced and immediately think "get out, get out, get out, why do you keep thinking this is going to work?  it's only going to get worse."

And to be honest, I do think it's gradually gotten better.  The fight that triggered this thread, as ridiculous as it was, only last 2-3 days before she calmed down and made an effort to work it out, for example.  before, it would go nearly a week sometimes.

[Red5]

- I remember the times we nearly got divorced and immediately think "get out, get out, get out, why do you keep thinking this is going to work?  it's only going to get worse

Me2 Pete, wow I could have written that!

I am on a long tour, today is thirteen days of “yuk” ; (

... .it went down in the middle of udx wife’s daughters visit week before last, I have come to believe that fam-foo visits must be some kind of trigger to her.

Matter of fact, I cannot think of one single time she has NOT slipped her rail during a fam-foo visit, either here at home or at another local away from home.

NO!... .as I sit here and think about it... .every friggen time over the last ten years she has done this on EVERY visit... .yeah ; (

Keep posting Pete!

Red5

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Pete, it's good to observe small improvements and even acknowledge them to her, where appropriate. 

And in addition measuring time frames, I would suggest observing how she responds differently to certain triggers in the past. Her effort to work things out I think is more important than how long it took her to calm down.

What do you think is behind the improvement? Some self awareness on her part? Sensing possibility of losing you?

~ROE

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

My DIL has used the "You love them more than me" before too. 

I wonder what effect it would have to set down your pwBPD and say that you know that they feel insecure about your relationship with your family, but that your love for your family doesn't diminish your love for them in any way.  That your pwBPD will always be number one in your life (reassurance), but that you must be able to interact with and love your family too (boundaries). 

Not sure what the reaction would be.  Has anyone tried this tact? 

[formflier]

For me I would use the word "perhaps" to acknowledge that we are not mind readers and don't know how the feel.  It's kind a big issue in my relationship.

Others might not be so triggered by that... .so just saying how they feel might work.

The thought is a good one, to acknowledge it is uncomfortable and you appreciate them doing it for the good of the relationship.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Here's a similar thread, where a BPD husband is over-the-top with jealousy about his wife's adult son with Asperger's.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327450.new#new

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

For me I would use the word "perhaps" to acknowledge that we are not mind readers and don't know how they feel.

Yes.  Good point, formflier!  It would be better to say:  "Perhaps you feel insecure about my relationship with my family." 
Saying "I know you feel insecure"  would definitely be a trigger for my DIL.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

I do believe acknowledging the insecurity, and setting boundaries could potentially be beneficial.  These things would probably need to be repeated any time that there is an upcoming family event. 

[loyalwife]

The question as to whether telling a pwBPD that they need not worry about your love for another family member being more is I am sorry to say, useless. I have tried this approach as it was suggested by a therapist.  My husband is jealous of anyone that I love, my kids or dogs. To him it takes time away from him, and if I am not focused on only him then he questions my love and I become someone he cannot trust. I have explained that the more I love the more love there is to go around, but he insists on 'punishing me' if I pay attention more than he thinks I should, especially to my son who has Aspergers. Although intellectually he understands that my son is not 'normal', he refuses to give him an inch and the neediness unhinges him. He has even said that he would like it if my kids just disappeared. This would make me extremely sad. So what happens if the pwBPD gets all the attention? Eventually they will find something else to turn their direction to and rage over.
     The silent treatment is my punishment and it can get to the point that he will decide he wants to separate. Because this has happened so many times, I now go right to the subject without hesitation and to ask him what he would like to do. I'm so tired of the games, the nights of wondering if he will no longer be mad at me and also whether this is the end.  He threatened to go to a hotel tonight and stay for awhile without contact. All this over the fact that I saw my son for an hour and a half yesterday to help him get medication. I can see my daughter, but not my son. (although he has had times of hating her too).
     This is a double bind situation. No matter what you say or do, it will be wrong.
     The insecurity is so great, and the lack of self love that no matter how much you tell someone that they are the most important person and your 'world', it falls to dead ears. The BPD has convinced themselves that what they feel is true, that your love is measured and if you love someone then there is less for them.
     

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

The BPD has convinced themselves that what they feel is true, that your love is measured and if you love someone then there is less for them.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.  When you read that pwBPD's behaviors come from their deep insecurities, it just seems that there should be some way that you can reassure them.  The whole situation just seems so hopeless.  I'm sorry you are dealing with this loyalwife. 


My DIL is also very jealous of any attention that is not directed towards her.  She is estranged from her own family, so my son is her whole world, and she expects him to see her as his whole world too.  She has also told my son, "I don't want you talking to your parents, because they will turn you against me."  So sad! 

[RolandOfEld]

I'm having a similar back and forth with uBPDw about taking a trip home to the US to see my family for first time in 3 years and after my grandmother died. One minute she's onboard, the next seems quite hateful / questioning about the idea. I'm going to go no matter what.

~ROE

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry about your grandmother's passing, ROE.     It will be good for you to go home and see your family.

Cat

[PeteWitsend]

Yeah, I think loyalwife hit the needle on the head: regardless of the effort you make to address it, the pwBPD's feelings and anxiety of abandonment will be triggered by any other relationships you have (even a dog or cat... .) and they will react to it with hostility.

You can try to reassure them, and occasionally that works, but often it won't. 

For me, it all comes back to "How much of this are you willing to take? How much of your personal life are you willing to forego in order to address this person's pathos?"

We just had a short planned weekend visit from my mom.  It really does seem like what loyalwife pointed out is the issue here.  my wife can be alone with my mom just fine.  but I noticed whenever she was not in the picture, even if it was her decision to leave for some reason, she started getting nasty & argumentative.

[PeteWitsend]

Example: my mom was just over for a short visit we had all planned a month ago.

everything was more or less fine, although I did consciously minimize time I spent with others without my wife present.  we all took the kids to the children's museum, and kids went different ways ( as kids do).  wife made some snide comments whenever things ended up that my mom and i were with one kid, and my BPDw and MIL were with the other "Are you standing with your wife?"  etc.  this is annoying  - WALKING ON PINS AND NEEDLES - but I tried to deal. 

My MIL even told BPDw "Your MIL is a good person and you can tell she's trying to be good and follow all your rules and not start any conflicts."

THEN the last day of the visit, we had a kid's BDay party to go to.  Since my mom had to get to the airport at about the same time, we discussed me driving her to the airport, then meeting up at the party, but there was some grumbling about that. 

a couple hours before the party, we Went downtown to walk with the kids and get lunch.  wife and MIL go to buy a present for the party leaving my mom and I alone with kids.  It was her own choice!  UH OH!  Husband with another person!  He might leave! 

Wife and MIL rejoin us and wife is on verge of falling apart.  my mom asked "what's the best Mexican restaurant in town?" 

Wife took issue with the word "best" and started arguing about it, awkwardly, so everyone dropped it. 

then BPDwife said to my mom "I have another week off.  Can we come to your house for a visit starting tomorrow?"

This was absurd... .it's a 3 hour flight away, no plane tickets had been booked, and the kids had school. 

My mom tried to jokingly play it off, but my wife had her "in" - that the welcome we extended my mom by allowing her to visit was not reciprocal. 

BPDw then decided we should all drive my mom to the airport and go to the party late, and spoiled the whole drive to the airport by complaining about how unfair it was that the visits aren't reciprocal. 

Then after that she kept it going by continuously needling me about whether I was "still mad," and finally when I had enough and told her to stop needling me, and then asking whether I was mad or not, she said "F--- you!" in front of a bunch of other people and stormed off. 

[formflier]

What "dysfunctional tools" did your wife use "against" or "on" you in the post you just made?

I see a few of them.

Step 1... .identify them.

Step 2... .figure out how to "deflect" or "diffuse" them.

Step 3... .understand the tools and understand how the "deflections" work. (this will help you "think on your feet better" when she "needles" you)


FF

[PeteWitsend]

What "dysfunctional tools" did your wife use "against" or "on" you in the post you just made?

I see a few of them.

Step 1... .identify them.

Step 2... .figure out how to "deflect" or "diffuse" them.

Step 3... .understand the tools and understand how the "deflections" work. (this will help you "think on your feet better" when she "needles" you)


FF

I'll summarize my own thoughts on that:

1) She made an Irrational demand.

2) I can only surmize, but she did it knowing it would trigger conflict: she KNEW I would not take her side and claim my mom was being unwelcoming by not agreeing to a visit my wife had no intention of taking anyway.

3) she then doubled down on this, knowing regardless of what I said, unless I was willing to turn the car around and put my mom's things into my own car and drive her to the airport myself, she had a "captive audience" for her performance.

The thought did occur to me to turn the car around, take my mom's bags out, and drive her to the airport myself, but I was caught over the proverbial fence:

- that looks like an escalation on my part (she'll go to her grave insisting she just made one minor comment and I blew it out of proportion);
- things generally have been good, and while I am pretty sure this one is going to blow up, am I ready to escalate this?

I decided no, and JADED "she wasn't being unwelcoming, you weren't REALLY going to fly to California this week, and she has to work" and then "I'm not yelling, I'm not upset you are" along with an endless circular argument over who started it, that amazingly isn't resolved by noting who opened their mouth first.

Like I said in an earlier post... .this behavior from her really takes me right back to prior low points in our relationship, and I start to wonder what the point is since it's never going to change.

[PeteWitsend]

She picks up on the fact that I am upset.

It's like "blood in the water" then. 

Instead of an apology or backing off to let me deal with it, (like a normal person would) she attacks.  escalates.

I don't really know how to handle these sorts of conflicts because:
1) I really am upset, and trying to hide and bury my feelings gets exhausting; and
2) if it was just between the two of us, I could leave (and usually do).  But she knows there are other people around and gambles that I'm not willing to make a scene in front of friends and family.