Gottman article: Turn Towards Instead of Away

[Woodchuck]

This quote below from the Gottman article is pretty much where I think we are at:
https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/

"To “miss” a bid is to “turn away.” Turning away can be devastating. It’s even more devastating than “turning against” or rejecting the bid. Rejecting a bid at least provides the opportunity for continued engagement and repair. Missing the bid results in diminished bids, or worse, making bids for attention, enjoyment, and affection somewhere else."

I believe that this describes pretty accurately where we are at.  I attempt bids quite often and she either turns against or turns away the majority of the time.  When she actually turns towards a bid or places a bid herself, there is a sense of resentment that I have to deal with that is counter productive.  Many times I want to turn against but end up turning towards in away while still keeping my guard up.  I don't know if that makes sense or not.  I think the disconnect is that I would be willing to meet just about any bid that she communicated but her feeling/mentality is that if my wants/needs(bids) differ from hers, she is going to choose hers.  On top of that, she believes that anything that you 'get' is earned and I have not earned anything good.  This too me is not the true definition of love.  There is a need for healthy boundaries but I believe that hers go to the extreme are really in place to control and manipulate even if she is not aware that she is doing that, it is going on subconsciously.

Woodchuck

[formflier]

  Turning away can be devastating. 

For who?

Which of you two would you think is the most sensitive to this?

What impact do you think your answer to the above question has on your strategy to "better" the relationship?

FF

[Woodchuck]

For who?

That is an interesting question and my first thought was that it is obviously devastating to the person that was turned away from but then I stepped back and thought about it for a little bit longer.  I find it devastating when I have realized I have turned away (missed) a bid that she has presented.  For example, she has said that she felt abandoned when we had our first child.  She claims that she reached out to me over and over and that I just did my own thing.  That is not quite how I remember things but I find it 'devastating' that I missed her bids as I would have loved to be able to turn towards her.  I am sure that it was in part due to my lack of knowledge/understanding that contributed to that.  I also believe that she had a need to maintain more parental control than she realizes or admits and that her actions made me feel pushed away and unneeded.

Which of you two would you think is the most sensitive to this?

This is a tough question to answer as I cannot really get into her head.  I believe that I am more sensitive to this as I am not able to completely shut down emotionally and be completely cold towards her.  We are both sensitive but I believe in very different ways.  I believe that she has a capability of just 'turning off' and not caring at all or at least acting very convincingly that she does not care.  I cannot do that.  If I try, I may be able to for a short time but it takes an immense amount of energy.

What impact do you think your answer to the above question has on your strategy to "better" the relationship?

At this point, I am really not sure.  I am very confused about what the best/healthy way is to 'better' things under the circumstances. 

FF
[/quote]

[formflier]

  I find it devastating when I have realized I have turned away (missed) a bid that she has presented.  

This is a good thing to think about.  I hope you can stay there.

There a a couple threads going on.  Read Skip's idea regarding the paint job.

Relate that to this thread about bids.

What did she do when she paid for the paint job?

Let's push pause on the other questions and issues you were unsure about.

FF

[Woodchuck]

What did she do when she paid for the paint job?

Let's push pause on the other questions and issues you were unsure about.

FF

FF-
I can see where you are going with the question and it makes sense.  I can see how it could be viewed as a bid.  However, is it really a bid if she did not communicate in any way about what she had done.  The argument could be made that it was a bid if she had left the invoice on my desk or actually told me what she had done but she has said nothing and the only way that I know about it is by seeing it in her car where she would not expect me to be looking.  It would be great in a sense if it was a bid, however the mixed signals are still confusing.  If I was able to see it as a bid, I believe that I would keep things short and direct, acknowledging/appreciating/validating what she did.

Woodchuck

[formflier]

  I agree wholeheartedly that her making that payment was not bad and I would love to be able to validate that to her but I believe that no matter how it was addressed, she would find a way for it to be negative/selfish or something along those lines.

It all just does not compute.

 

I agree... .she likely would be that way.

Does her reaction mean that you shouldn't do it?

What does her reaction "mean"?

When it comes to being a rational, thoughtful, "computing" guy... .I'm likely top tier.  I get it... .it doesn't make sense.

Over the next day or two... .can you put your "computer" away for a bit... .let's get some feelings in the mix.  You are on the right track in the other thread as you considered a "rejected" bid. 

Where did that answer come from in WC?  Let's stay there a bit.

FF

[formflier]

I can see where you are going with the question and it makes sense.  I can see how it could be viewed as a bid.  However, is it really a bid if she did not communicate in any way about what she had done.  

Yes... it was a bid when she did it.  No doubt in my mind at all.

I wonder what changed for her from the time she did it, until she considered letting you know?

What changed in her head?

What changed in her "heart"?

You know her better than we do... .don't overthink this.  Use your heart.


FF

[Woodchuck]

Yes... it was a bid when she did it.  No doubt in my mind at all.

I wonder what changed for her from the time she did it, until she considered letting you know?

What changed in her head?

What changed in her "heart"?

You know her better than we do... .don't overthink this.  Use your heart.


FF

FF-
The thing is that she hasn't 'let me know'.  She has been completely silent.  I only know because I saw the paid invoice in her car.
With that being said, I know I tend to overthink things.  I think this is due to being burned so many times by not 'getting things right' so I am now at a point where I analyze/over analyze every potential outcome.  I honestly have no idea where her head or her heart is.  Rereading my posts, I see that I am kind of crossing wires with two different issues and that is probably causing confusion.  With the original issue on the post, I think the only thing that 'changed' was that I have not engaged in JADEing.  I have not taken any of her bait to start an argument.  I have stayed calm and collect.  In the past, at this point I would have been a JADE master.  It is possible that she is realizing that I am not going to fight and so she is softening but I really have no idea.  I apologize for any confusion the two threads may cause.  They are somewhat related but at the same time they are different.

Woodchuck

[formflier]

What if... .what if... .?  She meant it from the bottom of her heart that she didn't need you (and all the other stuff).

And...

What if when she asked you to give the cat a pill, she really needed you, felt like she needed you?

How does all that work together?

What is the common thread?

FF

[Woodchuck]

What if... .what if... .?  She meant it from the bottom of her heart that she didn't need you (and all the other stuff).

And...

What if when she asked you to give the cat a pill, she really needed you, felt like she needed you?

I don't think I am following where you are trying to go.  I feel kind of lost.

How does all that work together?

None of it seems to work together. 

What is the common thread?

The common thread seems to me to be that there is a cycle of making requests and then communicating that she does not need or want me.

FF

[formflier]

History matters... I'm not saying you should forget it.  I'm also hoping you can figure out how to move forward and not "dwell" on it.

She's a person that changes her mind... a lot.  History has taught us that.  Guess what she will likely be in 2 years... in 10?

I'm not saying that is good... or that is bad.   (stand by for FF analogy).  Some people like it when it rains... .some people don't.  Rain is good for some people... and bad for others.  If you live some place where it rains a lot... and rain makes you grumpy.  Well... .you have choices to make.

Here you are looking for ways to improve things, so the rain doesn't bother you quite so much.  I'll also let you in on a "pretty sure thing".  If the rain stops bothering you as much, there is a high likelihood it won't rain as much.

Following?

I'm going to think for a bit about some of the other stuff you mentioned.  Perhaps others will share on other points you made.

FF

[formflier]

I have to wonder... .if you reached out less, would she be more receptive to the times you do reach out?


FF

[Woodchuck]

History matters... I'm not saying you should forget it.  I'm also hoping you can figure out how to move forward and not "dwell" on it.

She's a person that changes her mind... a lot.  History has taught us that.  Guess what she will likely be in 2 years... in 10?

FF-
I do not dwell on the past.  I understand how it may look with the history that I bring up.  Reflecting on things brings back memories and I see more of a pattern.  As you said, history is important and the main reason I share the history is because it does show a pattern.  There is a big difference between a 1-2 time occurrence and repeated pattern. Another example that dawned on me this AM was an issue with her car.  She found her 'perfect' car several years ago.  We drove about 6 hours to get it.  It was an older car but had low miles.  The car has had constant issues since literally the day we bought it.  A tire blew out causing $3500 worth of damage to the car (more than half of what we paid for it), fortunately the dealership paid for the repairs.  I have been frustrated with the car as I have put many many hours into repairing it, not to mention thousands of dollars.  Once we move to a new location, annual safety inspections were required.  The first two years, the car failed and required more repairs.  One of my coworkers was interested in purchasing the car and she had voiced that she was ready to sell it.  I told her that he wanted to take it to his mechanic to look at it.  She was fine with that.  When he brought the car back, he showed me that the car had passed the safety inspection with his mechanic.  He was ready to buy the car, cash in hand.  I let my W know that the car had passed inspection when my coworker went to have it looked at.  She told me that she was no longer interested in selling it.  So now, yet again, I am put in a tough spot.  I ended up following her wishes and told my coworker that she had changed her mind.  He was very nice about it but I still felt like a total jerk.

Here you are looking for ways to improve things, so the rain doesn't bother you quite so much.  I'll also let you in on a "pretty sure thing".  If the rain stops bothering you as much, there is a high likelihood it won't rain as much.

Following?

I am following.  I don't know how to make the 'rain' stop bothering me as much or if that is even healthy.  There is a long laundry list of things that I have chosen to not allow myself to be bothered by, things where she makes command decisions and though I don't agree with them, I do my best to support them.  I have let a lot of the things that I have talked about, and things I have not brought up yet, go (not forgot completely obviously, but not thought about on a regular basis) and having all these things surface in my head is causing a lot of anger to build up.  I am feeling more and more worthless and like I have allowed myself to be a doormat and don't see any way out.

Woodchuck

[formflier]

Just got caught up on a couple of your threads.  

Lots of history being discussed... .a lot of resentment... .there is an overwhelming amount of stuff going everywhere.

   

Sorry man.


So... .I'm going to mention 1 thing that has jumped out at me, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it.

She seems to "go unilateral" a lot and I hear from you consistently that you then "do your best" to support that.

As I think about it, I just can't find a point of view where this "makes sense".    I get it that it "feels normal" or "feels right" to you, but I suspect there is a lot of resentment built up there.

Mattress... .unilateral... .you insert yourself and expend energy rather than staying nonchalant and letting it pass back to her.

Car... .she wants something... .you get involved and handle a lot of stuff... .she wants rid of it... you get in the middle and handle a lot of stuff... .then she cancels and somehow YOU pass on the news?  

There seems to be a thing were you insert yourself into "her stuff" and she resents you... and you resent her resenting you... .and she resents that you resent her resentment... and... .(kinda like the spinning wheel).

So... .I'm more empathetic now to why you took action of saying no to the cat pill and I sense you are perplexed at us that "we don't get it... ."  you just did a huge thing by "staying out of it" (from your POV anyway... .and I certainly was giving off the POV/vibe of "dude... cat pill... 15 seconds... what's the big deal?"

Am I on the right track?

Did you try out the thinking that "her cat... her cat pill... her thing... .I'm staying out of it"?

FF

[Woodchuck]

Just got caught up on a couple of your threads. 

Lots of history being discussed... .a lot of resentment... .there is an overwhelming amount of stuff going everywhere.

   

Sorry man.

You are very correct, there is a lot of resentment.  I don't want there to be any resentment.  I would much rather move on with life and leave the past in the past (not the same as forgetting, as there are some things that just cannot be forgotten).  Doing so is in line with the faith that her an I share, forgetting what is behind and pressing on towards the goal ahead.  I am not trying to turn it into a religious issue but that is part of something that is in the religion that we both supposedly follow.  My hearts desire it to just let go of things and put energy into make the present and the future good.  The amount of resentment that is being shown on my end in these posts is not how I feel on a normal day.  I truly believe that I let go of things and do not focus on them.  I obviously have not forgotten them.

So... .I'm going to mention 1 thing that has jumped out at me, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it.

She seems to "go unilateral" a lot and I hear from you consistently that you then "do your best" to support that.

As I think about it, I just can't find a point of view where this "makes sense".    I get it that it "feels normal" or "feels right" to you, but I suspect there is a lot of resentment built up there.

Mattress... .unilateral... .you insert yourself and expend energy rather than staying nonchalant and letting it pass back to her.

Car... .she wants something... .you get involved and handle a lot of stuff... .she wants rid of it... you get in the middle and handle a lot of stuff... .then she cancels and somehow YOU pass on the news? 

There seems to be a thing were you insert yourself into "her stuff" and she resents you... and you resent her resenting you... .and she resents that you resent her resentment... and... .(kinda like the spinning wheel).

I would say that you are pretty spot on about this as well.  I believe all this, though it does not make sense, is a result of being told over and over that I am not there for her, don't support her, don't respect her and the list goes on and on and on.  I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her etc and I want her to feel that I do and so I insert myself to try to prove myself to her.  It never works out that way though, where she actually sees that I do love, care and respect her.  That is what builds the resentment, is I am doing what feel is like everything I can to prove my love for her and nothing works.  As she told me today, she does not believe I am capable of making her feel loved, cared about and respected.  That is just a huge punch in the gut.  Am I that much of a horrible person?  A I that much of a failure?  These are all rhetorical questions as I know that I am not a horrible person and am not really a failure despite the fact that I am unable to make her feel loved, cared about and respected.

So... .I'm more empathetic now to why you took action of saying no to the cat pill and I sense you are perplexed at us that "we don't get it... ."  you just did a huge thing by "staying out of it"

Am I on the right track?

Did you try out the thinking that "her cat... her cat pill... her thing... .I'm staying out of it"?

FF

This is closer to what my mentality was/is.  If I knew that taking care of something that she was capable of would result in even a little bit of positivity, I would stay up all night feeding the cat pills.  But I know that is opposite of what will happen, so I felt like maybe it was best to gently just let her take care of something she was capable of taking care of.  Yes, it was basically thinking that it was 'her can, her cat pill, her think... .I am staying out of it.'  If it had been a request for something like taking care of dinner, my response would be different as that is meeting the kids needs as well.  I want nothing more than to shower her with kindness and love etc but I am beyond empty.  I know all this probably sounds crazy.
Thank you so much for taking time to listen!  It really means a lot!

[formflier]

I've got an idea, that was very different from what I thought about your situation a day or two ago.

You are invalidating the crap out of her with your actions.

STOP doing things for her.  Stop it.

She thinks you don't need her... claims it... .then you do things and she realizes her feelings and reality don't match.  Just like pouring gas on fire.

I used to "prove" time and time again to my wife that I was faithful... .wasn't married to another woman... hadn't fathered a child out of wedlock... .etc etc etc.  That "invalidated" her... .

Once I removed invalidation... .things smoothed out (not fixed... but smoothed out)

How does this idea strike you?

FF

[Woodchuck]

I've got an idea, that was very different from what I thought about your situation a day or two ago.

You are invalidating the crap out of her with your actions.

STOP doing things for her.  Stop it.

She thinks you don't need her... claims it... .then you do things and she realizes her feelings and reality don't match.  Just like pouring gas on fire.

I used to "prove" time and time again to my wife that I was faithful... .wasn't married to another woman... hadn't fathered a child out of wedlock... .etc etc etc.  That "invalidated" her... .

Once I removed invalidation... .things smoothed out (not fixed... but smoothed out)

How does this idea strike you?

FF

FF-
I think that is very accurate with how things are.  Her statements today about how she will not contribute red cent to monthly bills while she is living in 'my' house but she will only pay for things if she has total control validate what you are saying I believe.  I think that it would work in many ways but at the same time that is completely denying who I am.  I don't want someone that is 'dependent' on me, meaning the actually NEED me to function but I want someone that I go show love to and do things for and help enable their happiness.  I want someone who has a love language that they are willing to share with me and allow me speak and fill their tank.  Her statement that I do not respect her and her response of "you can't" to my question asking how or what I can do to make her feel respected shows that she is choosing to put me in a position that is 'unwinable'.  If this was something that needed to be done short term to smooth things out and reset things, then I would be all for it.  I fear though that would not be the case. 

WC

[formflier]

What do we say about making decisions based on Fear?

Obligation?

Guilt?

Ummm... .do I need to say anything else?

FF

[formflier]

  They will go to extreme lengths to not feel controlled.  

Big focus here... .

FF

[formflier]

When she says you can't care for her... .that's her "feeling".

Likely better for you to "hear".  "Nobody can care for me... ."  Will help depersonalize it.

FF

[Woodchuck]

When she says you can't care for her... .that's her "feeling".

Likely better for you to "hear".  "Nobody can care for me... ."  Will help depersonalize it.

FF

FF-
Thank you!  That is a very good way to put it and probably very true.

WC

[PeteWitsend]

Just to jump back to the original post on Gottman's article, I'd love to see how he fits the way a pwBPD "bids" for attention into his theory.

So I'm standing there talking to the plumber who just showed up to install the new sink.  wife decides that's a good time to ask a loaded question about something as soon as we both leave the room.  before I know what hit me, she's screaming hysterically over some perceived slight that blows my mind* because it's so unexpected and escalates so quickly into full blown yelling, insults, slamming doors, and storming off without letting me get a word in, that it almost seems to be premeditated. 

SO... .I leave and go for a walk, or to the bar, or to the coffee shop.

Now I have "rejected her bid" which "devastates her."

THANKS, Gottman... .I'll keep turning toward someone spitting in my face.






*like I realize I feel physically ill when I leave the house to catch my breath.

[formflier]

and storming off without letting me get a word in

Why on earth would you want to get a word in... with someone that clearly doesn't want a conversation.

You are there... she wants to vomit emotionally.  The best thing you can do is move out of the way of the spew... .

For clarity... .a bid for attention is a "positive" bid.  I'm not aware of Gottman's work on negative bids.

I'm sorry that happened to you... .but I'm glad you are taking space.  When you walk... .breathe in rhytm with your footsteps.  It really does help.

FF

[zachira]

I believe that Gottman does not talk about how the physical turning away is also painful.  Some people are so traumatized by their childhoods that they are unconscious how they physically turn away from others because they are afraid of intimacy. Most bids for physical and emotional intimacy will sound the alarm, and the person will turn away. So sad because these people are often know for being emotionally unavailable because they flee from relationships and intimacy.

[Notwendy]

 I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her etc and I want her to feel that I do and so I insert myself to try to prove myself to her.  It never works out that way though, where she actually sees that I do love, care and respect her.  That is what builds the resentment, is I am doing what feel is like everything I can to prove my love for her and nothing works.  As she told me today, she does not believe I am capable of making her feel loved, cared about and respected.  That is just a huge punch in the gut.  Am I that much of a horrible person?  A I that much of a failure?


This is my take on BPD Woodchuck. They project their own inner pain on others. I think they tend to perceive things from victim mode. It isn't possible to change another person's way of thinking. Your doing things to "prove" you are not what she says to you isn't working, because it isn't something you can do. She is going to think what she thinks.

The second statement- "am I such a failure, horrible person" is you taking her issues personally. You are not a failure. Your attempts to change her thinking failed- because it isn't possible to change someone's thinking. The issue here is in your own thinking about yourself. The question for you is why you are in this loop- constantly repeating this behavior when it isn't working.

Personally, ( and I have read this as well in marriage books) - we seek out partners with whom we can repeat childhood emotional trauma in hopes of resolving them. Our partners may not be the same as our parents, but close enough to repeat a pattern with. Part of this issue is you doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

A person with BPD who is in victim mode is struggling with their own bad feelings- and they can project them on to others and also someone in this situation probably isn't able to validate someone else. They are too focused on their own pain. This isn't about you, but about them. One thing that may shift your feeling of failure is to stop looking for your wife to change her thinking as a measure of your success.

This doesn't mean you don't follow your value of the Golden Rule. We can still be kind to people from our own sense of values no matter what their response is. If you give to charity, do you need a thank you letter from the person who received it to feel you are a charitable person? No, it is the action that you took that defines you as a charitable person. If you treat your wife kindly, it is the action that defines you, not what she says to you.

It may also help to reframe "helping too much" in terms of the Golden Rule. We step in to protect our loved ones from harm, but we also need to allow them to learn, grow, and let them learn to manage their own feelings. If your child were to be struggling with their homework, and you do it for them to relieve their struggle, you have taken the lesson away. If they didn't do their homework, then their lesson is to face the bad grade. If you rescue them from that, you take away the lesson. Applying this to the Golden Rule- if enabling, rescuing, and emotional fixing is actually detrimental to someone, would you want them to do it to you?

When your wife tells you " I don't need you" " you don't care for me" . She is feeling unloved. However these statements actually say nothing about you and everything about her. Rather than take this as something you have to disprove ( which invalidates her as FF said) simply hear her. "honey I hear you and I am sorry you feel this way" could go better than stepping in to prove she is wrong.


I want someone that I go show love to and do things for and help enable their happiness.

No Woodchuck- we show love for and do things for people from our hearts and values. Their response isn't something we can control. If she is unhappy then you are trying to change her. Of course it makes sense to wish she could be happy, but for her to be happy, she has to be able to choose this. Change this to " I want someone to show love to because this is who I am. I chose someone who may not be able to receive my love all the time, but that doesn't define me" and you may feel a bit less reactive to what she says. Remember the pink elephant idea. Someone calling you that doesn't make you one. You have seen that she changes her mind, has a feeling one moment and another one the next. Her feelings don't have to change your self image.

I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her 

[formflier]

 

It may also help to reframe "helping too much" in terms of the Golden Rule. We step in to protect our loved ones from harm, but we also need to allow them to learn, grow, and let them learn to manage their own feelings.  

I'll try to find the talk.  But one of the boundaries guys (I think it was Townsend) does a great job going through the original language of the Bible verses about "bearing one another's burdens".

I'm going from memory... but the gist of it made a powerful impression on me.

The Bible calls us to help one another and even "carry" one another in unusual circumstances.  Something comes up out of the blue (like a disaster)... .we are supposed to share our abilities and blessings with those in need.

The Bible doesn't call us to do "everyday" things for each other... .all the time.  Again... "every so often" acts of kindness are ok.   Helping your wife regulate her emotions every day... .not good.

Let's take this further.

Your wife gets hurt... .let's say a concussion and there is an inability to concentrate.  "Biblical" guidance would say you "carry her load" while the concussion heals.  Then... at some point, she's going to have to work through it, even if painful... and "carry her own load".

It's part of the healing process.

Hopefully I have time to find that today.
FF

[PeteWitsend]

FF and Notwendy, I agree with the point you guys made about Woodchuck's wife's comments saying everything about her and nothing about him.

That's one of those things that make this so difficult to deal with; you almost have to "speak BPD" in order to respond in the way that minimizes conflict.

I read something (I think in "Stop Walking on Eggshells" about how the black/white thinking of BPD also explains why pwBPD can go to such extremes of conflict over minor issues, whereas a simple apology, or admisson of error could have ended it hours or even days ago: in their minds, if they apologize, or admit to an error or bad behavior, then - because things are only black or white - they must be "black" i.e. all bad. 

because they seek to preserve ego above all else (a common human trait, but one taken to extremes here) they simply can't bring themselves to do this.

so the Non- is put in the awkward position of giving them an out, or finding a mutually agreeable path forward, that takes this "immovable object" into account.

Listening for empathy, is really learning to read between the lines.

And of course, not always possible when things are extremely heated or openly violent.

[PeteWitsend]

Why on earth would you want to get a word in... with someone that clearly doesn't want a conversation.

You are there... she wants to vomit emotionally.  The best thing you can do is move out of the way of the spew... .

For clarity... .a bid for attention is a "positive" bid.  I'm not aware of Gottman's work on negative bids.

I'm sorry that happened to you... .but I'm glad you are taking space.  When you walk... .breathe in rhytm with your footsteps.  It really does help.

FF

That's pretty much what happens.  I leave, upset over being screamed at out of the blue.  And the more it's happened, the more I find it affects me deeply.

then I avoid contact with her as much as possible, and she comes around and blames me for avoiding her.  then we talk/fight it out, and things kind of resume normalcy.

I gather this is how her own parents' dysfunctional marriage imprinted on her.  The fact that her dad "stuck with her mom" despite the abuse, sometimes even physical abuse, was a sign of his loyalty and commitment to her.

of course he also fell into alcoholism, frequently cheated on her, and spent long periods of time away from home on various pretexts... .but she ignores that part when it suits her narrative.

[formflier]

Pete,

There is a lot of that story that follows mine.  As you know... I'm a work in progress.

I don't stick around for much yelling... .I go around the circle once... .and sometimes twice.  If I'm still listening on the third go around... .I believe I've failed with tools in some way.

I reach out later to see if there is an interest in talking... or respond when she reaches out.  Many times she reaches out at bad times... and I offer to talk "when we are both at our best". (not tired... hungry... etc etc)

Big picture:  I've listened to less that a couple minutes of yelling/dysregulation in the past couple months.

Each event... I hear perhaps 15 seconds... 30 seconds would be long, before "my ears are somewhere else".

Sometimes validation will calm things... .I stick around then.  However... .that's usually before I would say "yelling" is involved.

How do these stats match up with yours?


FF

PS... .bring back the mystery to what your wife is thinking/saying.  Best done by not knowing what she yells about.

[Notwendy]

I can add to FF's post with the "higher power" concept from 12 step groups. The idea that all humans are of equal value has its origin in the Bible, and has been stated by various thinkers, religious and secular. It is part of our Constitution. It is at the heart of civil rights. So if the source of our value as a human is the Creator, or the law, or higher power- whatever source one takes on as their belief system, why would we let someone else define our self worth?  

Helping someone is fine line sometimes. FF's example - if someone is injured and needs help- we should help them. If someone is capable of doing for themselves- we may choose to help- if we do it out of their best interests, or it could be in their best interest to learn to manage on their own. The action may be the same- but the intent is important. I also fell into this prove myself pattern with my H. I cooked most of the time, but there were times I could not get to it. He was very critical and would say things like " you never cook for me" or " You don't love me because you didn't have dinner waiting for me when I get home". I knew this wasn't true  but I started cooking to prove that it wasn't. It didn't work. I could cook a gourmet meal every night and still he'd say it. I began resenting cooking ( I actually still struggle with this). One of the first things our MC said to us was for me to stop cooking. I was terrified " what if he has a fit?" ( she knew I was not in physical danger) and her reply was " he needs to be able to handle his feelings and you need to be able to handle when he isn't happy and stop trying to fix that".  There isn't anything wrong with a spouse cooking dinner- it wasn't the action she was concerned about but the dynamics between us. Somehow, my H felt unloved and looked at me to fix it but I couldn't fix it because it was from him. I looked to him for the validation and approval I needed ( from childhood issues) and he isn't able to fix that. We were both part of a pattern of looking at each other to solve something we had to solve ourselves.


I didn't cause whatever issues he had from childhood. He didn't cause mine. I can't work on his, but I can work on mine. It takes two people to be in this pattern and I can work on my part- which could impact the pattern. By working to "fix" his feelings, I was taking away his potential to learn to handle them. I also could see my own actions as selfish, even though they looked "kind and helpful". I was actually cooking to relieve my own fears of his anger. So, I wasn't being the kind one here - it was selfish.

Are you stepping in to try to relieve your wife's feelings because they are painful to you? Are you rescuing yourself when you rescue her?