STBX pushing for FaceTime with the kids

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Throwing this out for a little more perspective from the Family... .

Basic background for this post:  My stbx and I have settled into a 2-2-5-5 schedule with the kids.  They're with me on Monday-Tuesday nights, and her on Wednesday-Thursday nights, and we alternate weekends (Friday-Sunday night).

My sbtx is pushing hard for me to agree on a regular schedule of FaceTime calls from the kids to the non-custodial parent, particularly during the five-day stretches... .at least one call during that time, where both kids have to be present and participate.  She asked me to check with D9's therapist for her support on this, and I responded that I really didn't think the therapist would weigh in on something like that. Her response via text was:

"Then I need you to step up and agree to it. I haven't seen that yet and from past co-parenting interactions, you defer to a professional's opinion rather than trying to work it out between you and I. I would strongly prefer that we do this for the benefit of the kids as I think it will assist with minimizing loyalty issues/guilt and it will add more cohesiveness to their lives to see us as their parents encouraging this sort of regular contact rather than the current "all or nothing" approach we've got right now. Either I'm a single person who doesn't see or speak to or in any way hear from her kids for 5 days or I'm a single mom for 5 days. It makes me feel like split lives and I can only imagine how S5 and D9 are experiencing it."

I can tell you how they're experiencing it... .They miss me when they're with her, and they want to talk to me.  They don't miss her as much when they're with me, and they don't ever ask to call her.  I have made a point to have them call once or twice since we started this schedule, and D9 wants nothing to do with it.  If I make her sit there, she still doesn't engage/talk with my stbx.  S5 will talk for a little bit, but then he loses interest.

The request for FaceTime is definitely more for my stbx's benefit than for the kids' (much less mine).  She really misses them when they're with me, and I know she's struggling with the separation in general.  I just really don't feel like obligating myself to seeing/talking to her during that time, or putting on a show for the kids and trying to prompt, promote, or otherwise keep the conversation going.  There is nothing that requires me to set up this communication... .but in the interest of trying to maintain civility in our ongoing co-parenting relationship, I don't want to just shut her down either.  I could use some help validating her concerns while also sticking to some healthy boundaries for me and the kids.  Thoughts?

mw

[mama-wolf]

Throwing this out for a little more perspective from the Family... .

Basic background for this post:  My stbx and I have settled into a 2-2-5-5 schedule with the kids.  They're with me on Monday-Tuesday nights, and her on Wednesday-Thursday nights, and we alternate weekends (Friday-Sunday night).

My sbtx is pushing hard for me to agree on a regular schedule of FaceTime calls from the kids to the non-custodial parent, particularly during the five-day stretches... .at least one call during that time, where both kids have to be present and participate.  She asked me to check with D9's therapist for her support on this, and I responded that I really didn't think the therapist would weigh in on something like that. Her response via text was:

"Then I need you to step up and agree to it. I haven't seen that yet and from past co-parenting interactions, you defer to a professional's opinion rather than trying to work it out between you and I. I would strongly prefer that we do this for the benefit of the kids as I think it will assist with minimizing loyalty issues/guilt and it will add more cohesiveness to their lives to see us as their parents encouraging this sort of regular contact rather than the current "all or nothing" approach we've got right now. Either I'm a single person who doesn't see or speak to or in any way hear from her kids for 5 days or I'm a single mom for 5 days. It makes me feel like split lives and I can only imagine how S5 and D9 are experiencing it."

I can tell you how they're experiencing it... .They miss me when they're with her, and they want to talk to me.  They don't miss her as much when they're with me, and they don't ever ask to call her.  I have made a point to have them call once or twice since we started this schedule, and D9 wants nothing to do with it.  If I make her sit there, she still doesn't engage/talk with my stbx.  S5 will talk for a little bit, but then he loses interest.

The request for FaceTime is definitely more for my stbx's benefit than for the kids' (much less mine).  She really misses them when they're with me, and I know she's struggling with the separation in general.  I just really don't feel like obligating myself to seeing/talking to her during that time, or putting on a show for the kids and trying to prompt, promote, or otherwise keep the conversation going.  There is nothing that requires me to set up this communication... .but in the interest of trying to maintain civility in our ongoing co-parenting relationship, I don't want to just shut her down either.  I could use some help validating her concerns while also sticking to some healthy boundaries for me and the kids.  Thoughts?

mw

[livednlearned]

Regular contact is pretty standard, and it's also a known pain for reasons you state.

My take on what I've seen go down in other cases in court is that judges hate smart phones. 

It might be helpful to get a T to weigh in so you have a professional's personalized recommendation.

The healthier parent tends to not insist on contact because it creates distress for kids who might be experiencing loyalty binds.

The unhealthy parent insists on contact because it fulfills their needs. Most young kids don't like talking on the phone.

I created a shared photo album where I posted images and gave ex access. He rarely checked it, but fought for nightly contact that then S11 absolutely hated. And then it turned into just another way for ex to accuse me of blocking contact, or lurking, or putting surveillance software on S11's devices and on and on and on.

Maybe you can do something with instagram and let the girls send photos they agree to share with their mom about their day. Something that does not lock them into a schedule that is onerous for everyone involved yet gives your ex something.

Because it is really hard to not see your kids for long stretches.

[takingandsending]

Hi m-wolf.

I agree livednlearned that it is hard to go a long time with no contact, even a brief hello. I am week on/week off, and I miss my sons when they are not with me. And I think there is a constancy in the kid's worlds that their other parent is still there for them.

That said, this is not a battle that non-BPD/NPD win, insofar as it just perpetuates the cycle of blame. So, I think, regardless of the T or anyone else, this one is for you to decide - can you accept what will likely be a one sided effort (i.e. don't count on reciprocal time) that will result in blame and accusations of non-supportive behavior for something that probably does provide some reassurance/constancy to your kids?

One call over the 5 days, with a time limit of 15 minutes? Try your best for specific, direct boundaries around it if you decide to do this.

The option that I pushed for was a mid-week visit/dinner with the non-custodial parent. It's quality time v. phone time, and it is easier to write into a parent plan. Not sure if that works though with your schedule.

[mama-wolf]

Thank you livednlearned and takingandsending for your quick replies!

i know it's especially hard on my stbx to go without seeing the kids.  I miss them, too, but I'm able to focus on other things, like self-care, trying to pusue some of my own interests that have been neglected for years, and rebuilding connections with other members of my support network, etc.  I think my stbx really struggles with all of that, which makes her time without the kids that much harder.

The healthier parent tends to not insist on contact because it creates distress for kids who might be experiencing loyalty binds.

The unhealthy parent insists on contact because it fulfills their needs. Most young kids don't like talking on the phone.

I know my stbx feels that by not promoting/forcing the calls, I'm contributing to loyalty binds and alienation of her.  I'm really not trying to do that.  When I mentioned my stbx's frustration with lack of interest or participation on the kids' part, she said that they can be very "out of sight, out of mind" with that sort of thing.  They just don't want to do it, and I have a hard time making them do something that I don't think will contribute true value.

Shared photos might be nice, but D9 rarely wants any pictures taken of her, and especially doesn't want them posted.  Nor does she have any interest in sharing anything with my stbx.

The option that I pushed for was a mid-week visit/dinner with the non-custodial parent. It's quality time v. phone time, and it is easier to write into a parent plan. Not sure if that works though with your schedule.

This is something that was in an initial draft of our custody agreement, and I can't remember but I think my stbx's attorney had it taken out.  But I do think this is possibly a better route to take.  Not written into an agreement that has to be followed to the letter, but a suggestion that rather than trying unsuccessfully to push FaceTime interaction, we get together for a quick meal somewhere along the midpoint of the longer stretch.  This way the kids can't just wander off to the next room, and I'm not setting myself up for the blame, etc.  Of course, meeting in person brings its own complications, but I can establish clear boundaries around that... .

mw

[takingandsending]

Agreed on in person drop offs. We do our mid week visit at school pick up, so there’s only a neutral sight drop off to negotiate. Summer was optional. My xw refused to give me the option so I obliged her by cancelling her options for the summer. Petty but my personal compass said that allowing her visits while she refused was too lopsided for even my poor boundaries

[livednlearned]

The other alternative is that you stick to what is in the custodial order and abide the 5 day stretch of no contact with the kids, which it sounds like you are doing.

I found with my ex that the less contact we had, the better, for everyone. It was better for me, better for our son, and honestly, better for ex even if he couldn't see it that way. I believe the emotional intensity that intimacy brought was like a version of sensory overload that was hard to manage even if he had skills. Like I represented this shrill piercing overwhelming noise that drove his emotions into overdrive and made him lose his mind and act badly.

It felt like an act of compassion to remove myself as a target for that intensity.

I also found it helpful to think about what I wanted to model for my son. Did I want him to feel obligated to communicate with someone abusive? S17 is a pretty sensitive guy with SI at age 8 and that factored into things. I tried to model aloud the kind of helpful "managed emotion, flexible thinking, moderate behaviors" that Bill Eddy discusses in his book Don't Alienate the Kids.

It might be worth picking up a copy. This won't be the first or last struggle and it's helpful to have a well thought out compass point like Eddy presents in his book.

[Turkish]

My ex asked to do facetime in the beginning.  I said no until she dropped it.  I've repeatedly told her that she could call once per day but she rarely does this so I stopped reminding her.  I learned that when she wanted to call it was to soothe her anxiety at the time.  I'd stay firm though you could be civil about it. 

[mama-wolf]

I did a lot of thinking about my boundaries on this subject, as well as the potential takingandsending mentioned for ongoing blame and accusations.

At this point, I am willing (and have offered) that the non-custodial parent get an in-person visit for an hour or so somewhere near the mid-point of the five-day stretch.  I acknowledged that due to other plans in a given weekend this might not always work out, so I said FaceTime could be considered a back-up option (it should be the exception, not the rule).  This gives the non-custodial parent an opportunity to visit, catch up, and otherwise keep working on her connection with the kids, and it also gives the custodial parent a brief respite from the single-parenting.  I even proposed a time for this weekend that I would do this, and offered an option for the following weekend that she could plan for.

If she doesn't bother to try to schedule the in-person time, I'm not going to bend over backwards to promote FaceTime.  And if she takes her times with them but tries to block or otherwise make it inconvenient for me to have my own visits, then I'll shut it down.  The only requirement in the order about this sort of thing is that neither of us interferes with contact that the kids want... .we are not required to promote or otherwise prompt it.

If her true goal is to encourage contact and connection for the kids with the non-custodial parent, then she will need to put forth the effort to have this time with them.  It takes me out of the equation as far as blame for the kids not engaging, because they'll be there in person and it'll be up to my stbx to engage with them.  If instead it's about manipulating me so that she can "make sure" I'm fostering a positive relationship with the kids, also forcing conflict between me and D9 since she knows D9 is the biggest resistor... .I'm not playing that game. 

If it's about soothing her anxiety at being alone over those longer stretches, she probably won't pursue the in-person visits because I know putting forth this effort is going to cause its own anxiety for her (seeing/being around me even if it's just for a brief handoff).  I'm sure I'll experience some of my own stress over it all, but it will be far less than the stress of having to force FaceTime on D9 and otherwise have to cheerfully interact with my stbx through the screen for the sake of putting on a show for S5.

So, ultimately... .I won't be manipulated to do what she wants me to because she has decided that's what is "right" from a parenting perspective, and I won't accept more stress and anxiety into my life and interaction with my kids just so that she can avoid it herself.  She wanted me to "step up"?  Here you go.

mw

[livednlearned]

You might want to add language to the proposal that this is a trial period to see if it leads to positive outcomes.

[mama-wolf]

A good point… but the good news is that this is an informal arrangement completely separate from the formal custody agreement.  The custody agreement allows for us to modify the schedule with the kids if we agree to do so... .but we have to both agree. This arrangement would not be binding any way, and if it doesn’t work out I can just default back to what’s specified in the court order.

[livednlearned]

Understood.

Point being that you will save yourself a lot of angst if you have strong boundaries, whether those boundaries are legal or not.

She feels a lot more fear relative to what you or I probably experience. Everything is a slight, everything is a sign she's losing control, everything can be taken away, every move in every relationship can launch a thousand emotions and that is scary for her. She doesn't handle her emotions well. You give her an inch, and she takes a mile.

My suggestion is that when you alter boundaries for her, tell her exactly what the conditions are for traveling that mile.

Then, if you find yourself exasperated at the conditions you created in response to appeasing her emotional needs, you can refer back to what was in your mutual agreement.

It's to make it easier for you when you start changing what is in the court order.

You might be able to do this with your ex. With mine, I had to follow the court order even when it was nonsensical or inconvenient. I had to turn down important opportunities and say no to all kinds of things because my ex was a steam roller. If I didn't treat that custody order like fort knox, then the court order really was just a piece of paper.

[mama-wolf]

She feels a lot more fear relative to what you or I probably experience. Everything is a slight, everything is a sign she's losing control, everything can be taken away, every move in every relationship can launch a thousand emotions and that is scary for her. She doesn't handle her emotions well. You give her an inch, and she takes a mile.


You might be able to do this with your ex. With mine, I had to follow the court order even when it was nonsensical or inconvenient. I had to turn down important opportunities and say no to all kinds of things because my ex was a steam roller. If I didn't treat that custody order like fort knox, then the court order really was just a piece of paper.

All important things to consider--thank you livednlearned!

My stbx did finally reply to my offer, and I can't say I am surprised that she is declining the in-person time.  Her claim is that it's too disruptive to the kids (and difficult for her).  Her actual response:

I strongly feel that regardless of the expense, having the kids spend time in-person during the 5-day stretch would be much more difficult for them and for me. Not only do I have NO money to spend at McDonald's, but I am also having to fill up my gas tank twice a week due to all the driving I already have. As part of the commute between home/school/office, the kids spend about 40-45 mins each morning in my car on the way to school and then 1 hour to 1.25 hrs each evening home.

I would ask that if we foster communication, that we do so with a brief, 10 min FT call half-way through the 5 day period. You and I can catch up on behavioral issues and each of the kids can have a chance to say hey to the other parent.

I do NOT want to introduce too many in-person transitions. The kids are very difficult on Wednesday nights for me and I fear that if they saw you tomorrow, that would be very disruptive. Either way, we have plans to go to the pool by about 10 am to Noon tomorrow.

My response is that I don't feel the FT call is the time or medium for us as parents to discuss behavioral issues, and that I will offer and encourage but not force FT on the kids.  I respectfully disagreed about the difficulty for the kids... .I really think it's more about difficulty for her (which I did not say since I know the reaction it would provoke).  An in-person visit is an opportunity to engage and connect in a more focused and meaningful way than through a computer screen... .plus, the kids can't just skip off into another room or get distracted by something off-screen.

[takingandsending]

Sounds like you maintained good boundaries, mama-wolf.

I, too encountered the frequent complaint about transition times, and I did not experience these GREAT difficulties. I certainly did see my sons fighting, usually S7 threatening or lecturing S12 about doing something wrong that mom didn't like, on the car ride to my house. I validated both their experiences, and by the 20 minute drive home, they were regulated and ready to just be themselves.

I did, however, begin to coach them about things they could do to make transitions easier for my xw when they returned to her home, and I admit I may have been manipulative/unhealthy in this. I basically told them that if they could each find a quiet activity for the first 30 minutes to an hour when they got to their mom's house, like reading, playing at the park outside, building legos or playing a card game together, it would help their mom out. I also advised them not to ask too many questions or make too many requests in that first hour, unless they needed food or the like (and I always made sure they had eaten before I dropped them off!). For better or worse, that worked. I still feel like I put the responsibility on them, which sucks, but I also wanted it to be less explosive for them, too. Welcome to the moral morass.

I do think you are doing well, considering what's right for you and your kids. And the transitions do become smoother. The FT will never be great. And I really don't like the idea of any FT between the two of you. That level of engagement is not healthy right now - try to stick to written communication if you can.

[livednlearned]

My response is that I don't feel the FT call is the time or medium for us as parents to discuss behavioral issues, and that I will offer and encourage but not force FT on the kids.  I respectfully disagreed about the difficulty for the kids... .I really think it's more about difficulty for her (which I did not say since I know the reaction it would provoke).  An in-person visit is an opportunity to engage and connect in a more focused and meaningful way than through a computer screen... .plus, the kids can't just skip off into another room or get distracted by something off-screen.

It sounds like 3 issues:

1) FT is not the time to discuss kids' issues
2) You do not want to set a schedule for FT for the kids
3) She does not want to do in-person visits (fair enough)

So you are back to the drawing board on where things stand with #2. Based on the order, you can say:

* no to regular scheduled FT calls, full stop

Or, you can make an offer that splits the difference. To be candid, she is not asking for something unreasonable, imo. It's how she handles things where the wheels come off.

Making your kid available to talk to the non-custodial parent 2 to 3 times a week is not excessive and a judge would probably say that 1-2 times for a 5 day stretch is reasonable. Not that what a judge thinks matters here, only that it's a benchmark for what is reasonable. Kids don't like talking on the phone but kids dealing with two homes have a new normal that is pretty awkward for everyone, tbh.

I put responsibility on my ex and then made sure there were loopholes for the realities of daily life. We eventually set it up so that I would make then S10 available for phone calls at 7pm for 5-10 min 3 times a week. If it wasn't convenient, I texted as soon as I knew to let him know.

If your ex does not have a good relationship with the kids, she will likely start to seek blame and the end point is getting phones for the kids, which creates a whole nightmare of boundary issues for the kids because then they have no excuse for protecting their time. If you give her just enough contact during the 5 day week, that might prevent an escalation in which she starts to pressure phones for the kids.

[Turkish]

Given her complaints about not having McDonald's money, it would be interesting if she found money get them phones. 

The kids have already expressed discomfort here.  I think considering what's best for the kids is valid.  I stopped the nightly calls since it was resulting in issues with then S4 (he was really angry about his mom bringing the "new" man into their lives so soon). We will call occasionally and sometimes the kids will call me but there's no regularity to it. 

[mama-wolf]

I really appreciate the encouragement, takingandsending ... .

I did, however, begin to coach them about things they could do to make transitions easier for my xw when they returned to her home, and I admit I may have been manipulative/unhealthy in this.

I still feel like I put the responsibility on them, which sucks, but I also wanted it to be less explosive for them, too. Welcome to the moral morass.

I get what you mean about the tightrope between helping the kids find ways to mitigate the volatility with your ex while not wanting to make them feel responsible for it.  I don't think it's unhealthy to coach them... .the tricky part is the feeling of responsibility for them.  I similarly try to make sure the kids have eaten, because I know they can get especially cranky and confrontational (particularly with each other) when they haven't.

And I really don't like the idea of any FT between the two of you. That level of engagement is not healthy right now - try to stick to written communication if you can.

Yes, exactly.  She's pushing for the FT contact for her own purposes, but I know that seeing her and talking to her is not good for me.  Probably not actually helpful or good for her either, but she's only focused on how she misses the kids and won't consider the other aspects.

So you are back to the drawing board on where things stand with #2. Based on the order, you can say:

* no to regular scheduled FT calls, full stop

Or, you can make an offer that splits the difference. To be candid, she is not asking for something unreasonable, imo. It's how she handles things where the wheels come off.

livednlearned, I agree with you that the contact is reasonable under normal circumstances.  The problem I run into is the added dynamic of the kids dealing with a parent with BPD traits, and trying to balance that piece with what should otherwise be a simple matter of regular contact.  I did include in my reply to her that I am open to proactively calling via FT to ensure the kids have the opportunity to talk even if they haven't actually requested to call.  But I'm sticking to my boundary that I will not force them to engage, and I'm not going to carry the conversation, so the call may be very brief.

Given her complaints about not having McDonald's money, it would be interesting if she found money get them phones. 

Very true, Turkish... .and another reason I'm limiting my exposure to communication between the two of us.  She frequently refers to finances and I don't need to hear it.  She's an attorney with 10 years of experience, and she needs to take responsibility for getting herself together.

mw

[takingandsending]

If you give her just enough contact during the 5 day week, that might prevent an escalation in which she starts to pressure phones for the kids.

Yes. I already made this mistake. I was not structured enough on FT because my xw ignored my requests. Now S12 has cell phone his mom bought him, and like a billion other posters on this site, the cell phone is often off or out of minutes when it's her custodial time. I will say I haven't noticed it blowing up when I have S12, but he also generally keeps it on silent and forgets it in his backpack. 

Just do your best to not lose sight that some contact may help kids have constancy with their parents and support that,  and then hope for the best that your ex eventually supports the kids in that way when they are with her.

She's an attorney with 10 years of experience, and she needs to take responsibility for getting herself together.

Good God! If she works in family/divorce law, she is doing something horribly wrong if she can't afford gas for the car and a McDonald's  Happy Meal! Kind of wish my L was struggling to afford McDonald's instead of jetting around all summer on vacation and not getting a decree completed. Grrrrr ... .

[mama-wolf]

Good God! If she works in family/divorce law, she is doing something horribly wrong if she can't afford gas for the car and a McDonald's  Happy Meal!

Luckily for me, she does not practice family law. I think I would have come out of the whole separation in a much worse position if she was!

I know part of her finanial difficulty is the timing of the separation... .which I really couldn’t do anything about without doing  more damage to myself (more than I already had done by hanging in as long as I did).  She is building a new firm, and it takes time to get the funnel going... .plus I’m sure she struggled to be productive given how distraught she was over the separation itself and her emotional instability. But I just can’t take responsibility for all of that anymore. Nothing was getting better and I had to stop the bleeding.

So yes, I do support providing some constancy by offering the opportunities for contact.  I just don’t see value in forcing the interaction or prolonging it if the kids don’t want it... .

[livednlearned]

I just don’t see value in forcing the interaction or prolonging it if the kids don’t want it... .

And it's ok to put the responsibility on initiating those calls on her so you aren't bound to some agreement in which she can chastise or attempt to set controls on you through them.

With my ex, he seemed to lose interest in scenarios in which I could not be engaged because where's the fun in that. 

We eventually set it up that ex could call our son 3 nights a week at 7pm, but ex was instructed to text me first. If I received I text, I simply handed the phone to S10 and told him dad was planning to call. Then I went to walk the dog or removed myself from the room. My son was mostly monosyllabic in those calls and I wanted to give him privacy so he didn't have to listen to his dad gnash his teeth about me eavesdropping.

Eventually ex realized S10 was hard to engage on the phone, and stopped the calls for the most part.

It didn't stop chronic blaming and accusations, however. Their strained relationship was always my fault.

The best scenarios were always ones in which he had to make an effort to propose something reasonable, then I modified it so that all the responsibility was on him to initiate whatever it was, with little to no engagement from me.