Hit, threatened, tormented, and I have no idea what to do PART 3

[RolandOfEld]

_{This post was split from Part2 located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327717.0;all}

Hi all, it was a weekend of very important conversations.

It started from an had argument about when we would move, some dysregulation, followed by a very rare day of lucidity from her.

Eventually during the argument I cried a little, talked about how stressed I was and that's why I couldn't make a decision right now. uBPDw took my hand and brought me to the bedroom where we could talk in peace. She listened to how I felt.  This may have been a first. She later told me she's reading a book about how not think black and white, how there's a third option. She said she knew she is not mentally healthy and is abnormal and that she had done some very unreasonable things to me even though at the time they seemed reasonable. She is trying, taking her medication and regularly making her doctors appointments and seeing the counselor. This is all true.  

She asked me point blank if I was happy, and for the first time I answered honestly that I was not. I told her most of the time I felt scared and exhausted. She asked me to be honest if a divorce request was possible from me in the future so she could be emotionally prepared. I told her I owed it to her to be honest and that it was a possibility she might want to prepare for.

She said she is almost sure she can get better, especially with her new job starting. But she said she could not endure a relationship that depending on whether or not she could get better, that it would be like taking a constant test. She can't stand me treating her like a crazy person. She said she's sick and if I'm with her I have to understand this and accept it. I think this is all fair and valid.

This has thrown me into an even more deeply conflicted place. I'm going back and observing my behaviors of the last year. I think I've used her sickness as an excuse to be something of a jerk to my own kids a lot of the time. I've seen myself as a shining knight trying to save my family, "Roland Of Eld", but I've also been someone who has been deeply depressed most of my life and used others' behavior towards me to justify being passive or even mean.

My wife saying she is getting better makes me considering staying. But this is because it's calm now and I know I will feel differently after the next outburst. Feeling very conflicted about her and myself.

~ROE

[Red5]

She said she knew she is not mentally healthy and is abnormal and that she had done some very unreasonable things to me even though at the time they seemed reasonable. She is trying, taking her medication and regularly making her doctor’s appointments and seeing the counselor. This is all true.  

She asked me point blank if I was happy, and for the first time I answered honestly that I was not. I told her most of the time I felt scared and exhausted. She asked me to be honest if a divorce request was possible from me in the future so she could be emotionally prepared. I told her I owed it to her to be honest and that it was a possibility she might want to prepare for.

She said she is almost sure she can get better, especially with her new job starting. But she said she could not endure a relationship that depending on whether or not she could get better, that it would be like taking a constant test. She can't stand me treating her like a crazy person. She said she's sick and if I'm with her I have to understand this and accept it. I think this is all fair and valid.

Good Morning Roland of Eld : )

My first wife, did just about the same thing (scenario) to me back in 2003, right before we deployed onboard the USS Enterprise for eight months.

I remember it well, one night, she said, let’s go for a ride, and we drove down to the lake, it was after dark, ‘caveat-this is a long story, my first marriage’… she said just about the same thing to me, she said,”I have been sick for a long time, I know something is wrong with me; and I know it’s because of what happened to me when I was a little girl, I know I have put you through hell, and I am sorry”, (WOW!)… and then she told me; that she was going to try to get help, and that she was going to start seriously seeing a therapist (”T”).

She continued to say to me, “thank you for sticking it out with me, and also being a father to our three children, and not leaving me”… I grimaced inwardly when she said this… at that point we’d been married for twenty years… my mind raced back through time [‘I know I have put you through hell’], and I replayed in a second, all the bad stuff that had happened between us over the years, the heartbreak, the mental anguish, the betrayal, the literal night sweats, the suicide attempts... .on and on and on, my mind raced… I continued to think to myself, as she spoke, “is this for real, is she finally going to get the right help”… is this the “real turn” I have waited on for so long, the “turn to real healing for her”, and the long awaited guarantee that we will stay together, for the sake of our marriage, our children, the life we have “built” together?

Then she said to me, “I wanted to tell you this because things might get pretty bad as I work through all of this”… my heart sank a little, and I thought to myself, what does “pretty bad” mean, things have already been “pretty bad”... .ie’ in spades… I had a sinking feeling to go with the sinking heart,

Seems over the years I was married to her (ex), there were indeed moments of “clarity” such as this… but soon followed by more crazy stuff.

When we got home from the shipboard deployment, things were starting to get bad again, like they had been (intensity) ten or so years before, .but I had by this time reached a point of “apathy”, or radical acceptance, or whatever you want to call it, and I was just kind of waiting for the eventual final departure… I left again for another deployment in 2005 to Japan, she was gone when I got back in early 2006, and I divorced her.

Yes, long story, guess I wrote all that to say this Roland, it’s good that you are hearing these things from your wife, yes it is!, but I would caution you to not think that all is well just quite yet, be careful, and guard your heart, and understand what I meant by a “moment” of clarity from your wife, ie’ validation of bad behaviors… she may be at a point where she is inventorying things for herself… I do remember that every time I showed mental strength to my (ex) wife, she would straighten up for a little while, and tell me things like I wrote above, but if I was lured/lulled back into a “comfort zone”, things rapidly deteriorated once again.

Hang in there Roland, Red5

[Enabler]

This has thrown me into an even more deeply conflicted place. I'm going back and observing my behaviors of the last year. I think I've used her sickness as an excuse to be something of a jerk to my own kids a lot of the time. I've seen myself as a shining knight trying to save my family, "Roland Of Eld", but I've also been someone who has been deeply depressed most of my life and used others' behavior towards me to justify being passive or even mean.

Self reflection is a magnificent skill and one which we would be wise to use on a daily basis. It's very easy to get a sniff of arrogance about our own behavior when detached from the constant desire to track/react to our pwBPD. It's very easy to justify from our moral pedistool our own bad behavior when handed such an obvious go-to excuse. It's great to be reflecting on this.

It's brilliant you were able to have a frank and open discussion with your W here. She deserves you to be open and honest with your feelings about the marriage. When she is a less friendly mood, be prepared for that message of divorce to be used very much against you (forever), but this is where your new found strength and clarity will come into play and you can be internally assured of the message you relayed to her in the bedroom.

How you choose to balance your need for a satisfying relationship with your W and the kids and your W's inability (or realistic likelihood) to fully change is up to you. What level of tolerance or deviation from your personal life blueprint you are prepared to give/accept is your decision. To an extent you both need to set out what you are prepared to accept, and offer and see if there can still be a fit. What you are prepared to accept needs to be concrete and unyielding so as not to land yourself in the same position in times to come. You set out the container, she decides if she can handle sitting in it.

Does she try to minimize her behaviors and have you asked her to elaborate on what she believes the behaviors are?

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, Enabler. She rarely brings up specific behaviors. But she's insanely specific with mine.

Red your experience is giving me some great context here. I'm living this life minute to minute but you've already been through the whole process and know how it might go in the long game. And speaking of things deteriorating... .

Yesterday she left S5 at home alone unsupervised, might have been an hour, minimum 20 minutes by my calculation. She was originally planning to do it with both because they were being fussy about going food shopping with her and there was a movie they wanted to watch on TV but then D2 was OK to go. I was horrified and messaged her saying we couldn't do that, anything could happen, that I was very disappointed and upset. Major dysregulated argument, during which she leveraged lots of things I'd said from our heart to heart the day before.

Thank God they both go to school in two weeks. I didn't think she would cross that line. Worst part is she was in a rational frame of mind when she did it so this isn't one that can be blamed on dysregulation. BPD or no BPD, I don't think I'm being out of line here to get upset?

I have my one on one with the social worker next week, to which I will bring a full copy of my record. My hope is the social worker can help us to mediate some solution to the situation that doesn't go to court.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

That's great to hear of your wife's moment of lucidity.  And of course there will be more craziness, since she isn't better.  But significant improvements are possible, and supporting her in her healing is important because it will accrue benefits for you and your children, even if you are divorced.  I was impressed by your self-reflection, particularly regarding your treatment of your children and blame of others.  Perhaps one could say that you both had a lucid moment!  The challenge is to maintain principles when things start to go south.

Messaging is a terrible way to solve problems.  It is so easy for things to explode.  Regardless of which way this relationship goes, less conflict and more healing is good for you all.  If you go back to that moment where she messaged you, how might you act if you had it to do over again, if your objective was to minimize conflict while still addressing your concerns within an appropriate time frame?

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW, in answer to your question, I knew I was inviting full blown conflict when I said she shouldn't leave our son alone in the house. But I felt I had to do it. Because this wasn't dysregulated behavior, it was more like bad decision behavior. Sigh, maybe there was a better way. I could have held my tongue and made my record to share with the social worker. Or said it must be very frustrating that he didn't want to leave the house and tried to discuss ways around this problem.

~ROE

[Enabler]

ROE, I have experience her on the weird decision making with regards to leaving kids alone in the house. W suggested leaving all 3 D9 / D8 / D5 in the house at 6:30am to go for a run on a regular basis. Fortunately for the kids it was just a suggestion which I pushed back to here with "it's up to you but the way I would think about it is, what if something should happen, how would you live with yourself and what would you say to the police?". She was very calm and calculated when she made this suggestion... .however, these things are all relative. She is in a heightened emotional state at the moment due to her plans to divorce me, that said I believe she always lives in a fog of emotions which leads her to act somewhat narcassistically. Her need is to exercise to soothe her emotions, she doesn't see this as a want, she see's this as a need.

Retrospectively, I'm sure you can see that you pointing out that she did something wrong will trigger her guilt and shame sensitivity hence blow up, that said, the issue needs to be confronted. I can imagine a scenario where your S was causing her stress by refusing to go so she abandoned him as she couldn't deal with the conflict anymore. Sorry for the lack of advice but this is a bit of a no-win situation and you ultimately need to ensure you do the right thing which you believe will bring a cessation to the behavior. Documenting with the social worker may well be the right course but it will not improve your relationship as you can imagine.

[Red5]

Retrospectively, I'm sure you can see that you pointing out that she did something wrong will trigger her guilt and shame sensitivity hence blow up, that said, the issue needs to be confronted.

I can imagine a scenario where your S was causing her stress by refusing to go so she abandoned him as she couldn't deal with the conflict anymore.

I knew I was inviting full blown conflict when I said she shouldn't leave our son alone in the house. But I felt I had to do it.

Enabler is spot on  ... .the children's safety is "up front" before anything else, and this includes "pissing off" the W... .that was a hard one for me to accept, and to learn, .after all, she (my-ex) was their mother, .how could she do something like that, ie' leave them alone when they were little, but she did it... .God only knows what went on when I was deployed half way round the planet someplace... .

Yeah, you have to come to a point of strength, and strong resolve here on this one, she may leave anyways, .maybe, .but damn it, DON'T EVER endanger our children (me talking to myself/ex-W)... .dysregulations be damned,

Yes, I went through that too Roland.

Red5

[Radcliff]

Safety is first, but it's important to be effective.  Raising the issue over text did not improve safety for the kids.  For that day, the horse was already out of the barn, and nothing was gained by driving the point immediately, while she was out doing errands.  Even a "non" partner would likely not respond well to that.  This is a problem to be addressed on a time scale of days, not minutes, and to be addressed face-to-face, during a calm time.  Also, don't be surprised to have difficulty having a rational discussion even then.  SET is probably a good tool to use for this, but you'll need to invest a lot of time listening to her and validating whatever valid things you can find (for example the stress of being caught between a rock and a hard place with two small kids and things that need to get done is something you can empathize with).

Don't expect to resolve this issue in one conversation like you would with a "non."  Give it a whirl, see if she will agree with you that going forward you'll need to work as a team to figure out how not to leave kids alone (for example, you watch them while she shops in the evening, or you shop, etc.)  But you may have to simply state that you don't view it as appropriate.  She may feel like agreeing with you is allowing you to control her.  You might suggest, in a non-threatening way, that you should ask the social worker for advice on what is acceptable (not with a spirit that you'll prove her wrong, but try on the role of a guy open to learning who wants to ask for independent guidance).

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW, your reply has helped me shift from emotional to pragmatic. I handled this completely wrong. But sometimes mistakes lead to the best realizations... .

After a dysregulated argument about me not wanting to argue last night, which led me to me getting twitchy and saying I needed some time to leave the room, she came out and told me to go to a hotel, plopping my stuff on the floor. At first I refused, but then did it because 1) really needed some decent sleep and time to myself 2) it defused the situation, which is better than the kids watching mom and dad go at it until midnight, like WW's point. I booked for two nights and not sure if I will go back tonight or not. Feel very guilty about leaving the kids, even though this might be better for them than seeing the two us fighting. And I really could use one more night.

I've more or less made  up my mind to propose separation / possible divorce. The social worker serendipitously called me today and we had a very long discussion about how to approach the situation. They want me to try once more to get her to come in with me together to talk about how best to resolve the situation (big challenge, especially since she's starting work). If not, they will meet with me one on one. I think I will have their office's long time support in making decisions and whether or not to go to court. This is a win.

I have to move on this. I feel like my entire self is deteriorating. My desire to do things like sing or see friends has vanished. I'm getting worse with my son (whose ADHD is getting worse) still grabbing his arms really hard, or at least it feels hard to me. The other day I punched a wall when they wouldn't stop fighting in front of them. I live most of my time in a depressive haze. My work will be effected before too long. And I rarely even have the emotional strength to help others on the board anymore. It feels like everything I try to do she cuts me off at the knees. This is not longer a relationship / love issue. I love her, always will. This is not an acceptance issue. She's sick, I get this and accept it. But I can't lead a normal or even effective life anymore. I feel completely in a cage and that anger is consuming me more and more.

I have to be prepared, but I don't think I can prolong it much longer. I will explode.

~ROE

[Enabler]

I'm getting worse with my son (whose ADHD is getting worse) still grabbing his arms really hard, or at least it feels hard to me. The other day I punched a wall when they wouldn't stop fighting in front of them. I live most of my time in a depressive haze.

Hey ROE,

I really feel for you buddy, this sounds like a tough situation.

Can you tell us how the argument evolved? I'm wondering if there is any way that you can just NOT argue... .that might sound odd and I totally get that when someone with BPD wants to ruck they want to ruck so it's almost impossible to stay out of it... .BUT... .these arguments are not productive, they are damaging to both of you and NOTHING is ever resolved in an argument. Refusing to argue is a choice... .yes, she may shout at you, she might even try and throw a vase at you... .but CHOOSE not to engage AT ALL. Teach her that you will no longer argue even for a minute... .and yes, that will require the mother of all personal restraint by you.

Regarding your boys arm holding. Again, this is not working for either of you. Your son's behaviour is not changing and although I am not there and cannot tell it still seems that he's getting something out of the confrontations and skirmishes with you... .even if it's just your attention. You feel guilty about potentially hurting him and it's adding to your stresses fighting with him. Firstly, I recommend ONLY placing your palms on his back or shoulder blades to guide him, firmly yes, but flat hands and no holding. Holding is a high risk event for you... .however loose your grip i.e. ringed fingers holding his wrist, if he pulls and you hold, he may hurt HIMSELF... .BUT... .YOU WILL BE BLAMED, and you are in a high risk situation with a VERY HIGH RISK spouse. Again, I believe you need to refuse to engage with him, this will take time and patience, neither of which you may have, but similar to your Wife, you must emotionally detach yourself, almost numb out and become a machine... .sit on the floor, repeat instructions and tell your son what you expect. This could take multiple days, weeks or even months but you can define the interactions you have with your son as different from your wife's. He will learn that games don't work, conflict isn't going to happen... .show and teach him that you don't roll with pigs (no offence to your son).

Despite the ADHD I really feel there are things here you can control, emotionally detach from and even actually laugh about. Create some time and space for yourself, then sit back and entertain yourself at what is idiotic childish behaviour. Redefine how you perceive these stress points.

You're doing a great job on the boards regardless of what you might think (invalidating  )

[RolandOfEld]

Hey Enabler, the argument was one of those logic labyrinths that you can never escape about how I did x after she said y (not true) and I was lying about. I started losing it and said I was in a bad way today and really couldn't talk about this calmly and I said it was better for everyone if we didn't talk about it. So I went to the living room to lie down and try and calm myself. She followed. That's when the demand to go to a hotel happened. She wants me home now and to talk.

The arm holding is... not excusable. But I truly am losing it. The nonstop chaos from her + new job stress + son ADHD / constant bad behavior + nonstop tropical heat + physical isolation from all family and friends is getting to be too much. I need to find where I have some wiggle room to improve my mental state. Getting some distance from her seems to be the only way.

~ROE

[Enabler]

Does it matter if she thinks you're lying about X and Y? Have you ever been able to convince her otherwise (and I'm not suggesting you tried to here).

Despite the insanity of it all... .because that's exactly what it is... .are you able to laugh internally about it all. I mean seriously, your situation, my situation... .most people on the boards situation is completely crackers, totally bat sh!t crazy... .if a random stranger told you this was going on in their life and you had no clue about BPD would you not slightly chuckle and think What the heck!

These accusations are just noise... .bla bla bla bla pink elephants... .you walking away just means that she wants to get "it" off her chest even more, she HAS TO vent this to you as it's important to her and you walking away frustrates her, it invalidates her. Sit it out, listen whilst internally chuckling to yourself, say "ah ha"... ."okay"... ."hmm"... ."I see"... ."yes dear" then "Give me some time to think about this". No emotional investment by you. Little by little by little your own personal emotional level will come down and it will be easier and easier. Mental distance doesn't necessarily mean physical distance.

The same with your son. Turn your perception of "bad behaviour" into "his behaviour", you are the one that is defining bad and good behaviour... .he's different, let him be different for now. Don't chase him, don't give him the fix he needs. He will not change because you tell him to, he's as dysregulated as your W... .only he's supposed to be because he's a child... .a child with ADHD with a mother with BPD.

Eliminate stress where you can. Your new job, that is supposed to be stressful, you probably can't change that, but maybe you can change some things about that and the way you think about it... .you got the job because you were the right guy for the job and you're competent. Let your competence do the talking.

[I Am Redeemed]

I've more or less made  up my mind to propose separation / possible divorce. The social worker serendipitously called me today and we had a very long discussion about how to approach the situation. They want me to try once more to get her to come in with me together to talk about how best to resolve the situation (big challenge, especially since she's starting work). If not, they will meet with me one on one. I think I will have their office's long time support in making decisions and whether or not to go to court. This is a win.

I have to move on this. I feel like my entire self is deteriorating. My desire to do things like sing or see friends has vanished. I'm getting worse with my son (whose ADHD is getting worse) still grabbing his arms really hard, or at least it feels hard to me. The other day I punched a wall when they wouldn't stop fighting in front of them. I live most of my time in a depressive haze. My work will be effected before too long. And I rarely even have the emotional strength to help others on the board anymore. It feels like everything I try to do she cuts me off at the knees. This is not longer a relationship / love issue. I love her, always will. This is not an acceptance issue. She's sick, I get this and accept it. But I can't lead a normal or even effective life anymore. I feel completely in a cage and that anger is consuming me more and more.

I have to be prepared, but I don't think I can prolong it much longer. I will explode.

~ROE

ROE, I have been there buddy. It is definitely a red flag that you are losing interest in the hobbies you once wanted to pursue and are becoming more and more angry and short tempered. I experienced that as well. That combined with the alarming discovery that your wife is willing to risk the safety of s5 by leaving him home alone has got to be a heavy, heavy weight to carry every day.

You have done so well in assessing your situation and trying to explore every option carefully. I am glad to hear that you have some support with the social worker who can possibly help you formulate the best course of action to take. It would be nice if your wife did participate, but don't count on it... .and don't count on her to follow any "plan" or "agreement" that the two of you make with the social worker even if she does participate in the meeting. You may ask the social worker what to do in the event that she does come to the meeting and seems to be in agreement regarding the next steps to take, but then goes back on her word or doesn't follow through.

Also understand about being too emotionally drained to even help others on the boards. Sometimes I feel like I don't even know what to say anymore to someone else, because I can' t think of anything that would encourage myself. I just start writing stuff sometimes, and hope it helps. Then it ends up helping me, ironically.

Are you still able to participate in therapy or maintain contact with a counselor? Anyone you can talk to about the amount of stress you are under?

I understand the impatience and frustration you feel regarding your children. I know you are a very loving dad and you feel that your reactions and responses to your son are inappropriate sometimes, and that it is largely due to the pressure and stress of living with the unpredictable and volatile moods and behaviors of a mentally ill person. I too have taken out my frustration regarding uBPDh on my kids, in the past and even sometimes with s2. I have carried lots of guilt about it. Since my contact with uBPDh has increased recently, I can feel that frustration and short temper flaring up again, and I have to stop and remember that s2 is not really even what is the root cause. Of course a two year old's behavior is not the easiest or most fun to cope with, and I'm sure that it is difficult for you with your son and his behavior, especially since you do not have stability in a supportive partner to parent him. BPD wife and ADHD son together - I can easily see how overwhelming that must be to you, and then to have D2 in there as well. Sometimes I have to just step back before I respond to S2 and take a breath. I also have had to give myself permission to let some things go. Its really frustrating to me when he makes a mess (which he does all the time) so I have learned to tell myself that it really doesn't matter that much on the grand scheme of things, and how bad is it really if the cereal got spilled on the bed? Covers wash. Anyway, you know what I mean. Maybe you can identify the behaviors in your son that "trigger" you and then figure out how to change your perspective on them.

Also remember that you don't have to be a perfect parent, and I think you have done exceptionally well under your circumstances. Try not to place expectations on yourself to function normally under abnormal conditions. Just do the best you can, one moment at a time if that's what it takes.

I'm pulling for you Roland! 

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Enabler and Redeemed, its so much better to discuss parenting with people like you with our hard shared experience than on regular parenting boards!

Yesterday afternoon I suggested to my wife we talk to the social worker about a possible change to our family arrangement. She agreed to go but also panicked and booked us an emergency session with our marriage counselor (she knows I'm on the verge of leaving). Even though at that moment I was not interested in any more marriage discussions, I agreed to go since she agreed to the SW.

It started out as the usual surface level discussion of how our arguments usually go. As the evening wore on, I let it get deeper, expressing my pain quite openly and finally calling up some of the dysregulated behavior (the hitting, trying to make D2 pee on the floor). The tone got much more serious. The counselor, who had been extremely neutral, started to be more direct about how not OK my wife's behavior was.

Finally, my wife started talked very lucidly about how she was sick. It was the first time we (me, her, and marriage counselor) all talked about it out in the open. The counselor said we definitely had to go see the social worker ASAP and work out a plan for our family, whether it was going it together or apart.

The whole thing was very intense. We never talked about facing her illness together. I'm not saying I'm changing my mind about separation just yet, but I'm taking "DIVORCE" in all its finality off the table for now. I will communicate that if I am to support my wife in getting better, I will need some very specific things (trip home and time with family, cessation of violent behavior, and very possibly a period of separation to recover). I will try to get it in writing.

I was really about to end everything but this session was like a Hail Mary pass on the slight hope of staying together. I see my wife is truly committed to getting better now. She takes her medicine and exercises religiously every day, and has taken some major steps forward recently such as empathizing with me. But I need certain things to be able to move forward. If she can't provide them, then separation may still be the best solution for the present (just removing the immediate divorce part).

~ROE

[Radcliff]

I want to second Enabler's advice on touching your son with open hands.  That's exactly what I was going to suggest as well.  If you must squeeze something, try squeezing your own thigh covertly as you go down on one knee to talk to your son on his level, then try to consciously loosen your grip on your thigh and take a breath before talking to him with a calm voice.

Congratulations on a breakthrough therapy session.  It sounds like there was some encouraging progress.  An advantage of taking divorce off the table, while leaving separation on the table, is that divorce would come with high drama that would not give you the healthy space you need to regain your strength and composure.   I'm glad to see you working on boundaries to help keep you healthy first.

WW

[Radcliff]

ROE, how is it going?  We're here when you want to talk.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW, thank you for checking in. Things are peaceful for the moment. My wife and I had a nice morning together on Sunday after having one of our babysitters watch the kids for a few hours. We plan to make this a habit.

I will communicate with her that I am taking divorce off the table for now and am willing to walk beside her on the road to recovery. But I will explain I need three very specific things to be able to do this: a written agreement on what both sides need and cannot accept, a support network, and a reporting system. The support network would include our marriage counselor, the social worker, our psychiatrist, babysitters, and her sister if she decides to let her know what's happening.

We would have regular two months check in with with counselor, or ad hoc check in if we hit a conflict that can't be resolved without 3rd party mediation.

The reporting system would mean that if one of us violates the agreement (e.g. hitting or other controlling behavior), it is reported to the support group for followup.   

We are on track to speak to the social worker tomorrow. My goal for this session is to come out with the above mentioned agreement. She is in a good way at the moment and I hope this will keep till tomorrow.

Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated, thanks!

~ROE

[pearlsw]

I will communicate with her that I am taking divorce off the table for now and am willing to walk beside her on the road to recovery. But I will explain I need three very specific things to be able to do this: a written agreement on what both sides need and cannot accept, a support network, and a reporting system. The support network would include our marriage counselor, the social worker, our psychiatrist, babysitters, and her sister if she decides to let her know what's happening.

Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated, thanks!

~ROE

Hey ROE,

That sounds really great! Does the agreement cover all you need it to cover? (Oh, maybe you are still formulating it? Will it include stuff not to say or do in front of or with the kids?) I'm sorry if I am behind here, but curious, why is she behaving differently? Did you being willing to divorce have this effect? Was there any more to it than that? (I don't see more above.)

I'm in a strangely similar position, that me be willing to divorce (and speaking very candidly at times about packing boxes, dates, etc.) has suddenly driven him in the opposite direction. It is such an unexpected shift my head is still spinning.

Are you able to let your guard down a bit? Where is your heart at? I'm starting to feel less numb, like I was for the last few months, but I can't open up to the idea of a future at this time... .although we are getting along quite well on many fronts. He laughs at all my jokes these days and feels like he "finally gets (as in understands) me" and even tolerated some recent grouchiness (I get to have a mood too! ;) on my part, though in all fairness I am a pretty funny grouchy person. ;)

It's just hard because I know Mr. Hyde will be back.

Ay, ay, ay!

hugs, pearl.  

[Red5]

I'm in a strangely similar position, that me be willing to divorce (and speaking very candidly at times about packing boxes, dates, etc.) has suddenly driven him in the opposite direction. It is such an unexpected shift my head is still spinning.

It's just hard because I know Mr. Hyde will be back.

It is my observation, that when the Non no longer fears divorce/separation/breakup... .that this is a "game changer" for lack of a better word.

The constant threats of "divorce/separation/breakup" is a control tool for the pw/BPD//npd.

Once the Non is no longer codependent, and is "speaking candidly", and "packing boxes", and making "dates" with lawyers, and identifying "POA&M" (plan of action, and milestones)... .this indeed changes things quite dramatically in the r/s.

... .as Pearlsw says... ."has suddenly driven him in the opposite direction", as in now, the pw/BPD wants to "talk".

Amazing !

However, don't be lulled back into the comfort zone, new boundaries need to be set, .and so forth and so on, or else... ."Hyde will be back".

Tell "Mr. Hyde", .he needs to make an appointment, or else he can pound sand !
www.hark.com/clips/rtspplqwst-do-you-have-an-appointment

Hang in there Roland, you're doing fantastic !

Red5

[Radcliff]

Roland, developing a mutual support network and having accountability sound like great steps. 

In working on the agreement, remember that pwBPD often are fear-driven, and do not want to be controlled.  If you notice your wife all of a sudden resisting the negotiations or becoming irrational, increasing pressure will likely be counterproductive.  Back off, and perhaps set a neutral voice like the counselor work on her fears, bringing her back to center.  If you get heavily invested in the negotiations and she threatens to withdraw, your natural reaction will be a strong one, a reaction that could push her farther away.  Stay calm, as hard as it may be.

WW

[Radcliff]

How are things with you, ROE?

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW and all, thank you for checking in.

To summarize what's been going on, we saw the social worker, and while I brought up my thoughts on the written agreement, it mostly evolved  /devolved into another marriage counseling session. This wasn't ideal for me at first but the SW turned out to be a highly adept counselor and commented on my wife's putting herself in a constant victim mentality.  

The ironic thing was, I turned her advice towards my wife on myself. I realized that while my wife's BPD is still a serious issue, it is not an excuse for me to be a bad father to my kids and let my responsibilities drop. I am trying to exchange self pity for pragmatism about what I need to fix in my life.  

So for the first time since I learned about my wife's BPD almost a year ago, it is no longer the all consuming focus of my life. It still worries me a lot, and of course I will still be here every day, but I have done what I can do and in the process built a really great support network for us of psychiatrists, counselors, social workers, babysitters, family, and friends. We (I) are no longer alone in this alone.  

I have also realized that I am not a knight in shining armor trying to save everyone I saw myself as, but a human being who is as deeply flawed as everyone else.

As for now:

I want to focus my energy on S5, who was recently diagnosed ADHD and whose relationship with me is very fraught at the moment.

I want to go back into counseling for myself and continue taking the anti-depressant medication I think has been helping.

I want to support my wife to adjust to her job, but also work on getting the personal time I need to stay sane, especially with how insanely busy things are now.

In summary, my wife's BPD is still a big factor in my life, but I am not going to let it be the ONLY factor anymore. She is showing some improvement and I am going to try and stay optimistic.

I really appreciate everyone's support in getting through this last stretch of chaos. I'm sure there will be more.

~ROE

[Enabler]

ROE, I think this is a commendable way to think about your current situation. Framing it this way will allow you to focus on the things you can change and avoid tunnel vision with respects to the other important aspects in your life, aspects that NEED you because they are too young to fend for themselves. Incidentally, many of the communication skills used with your wife, will be applicable with your S. Keeping the anxiety levels low and approaching him in a different way will assist with you being a consistent parent for him.

All the best with this.

Enabler

[Radcliff]

I'm glad you've got a good support network going!  And the focus on yourself certainly seems like a good place to be.  

How are you doing on boundaries?

What are the key elements of your self-care plan to "stay sane?"

RC

[RolandOfEld]

Enabler I think you are right about the communication skills. Right now I'm reading a book on how to deal with explosive children and it often sounds like they are writing about someone with BPD. The idea is understanding behaviorally challenged children as people who want to do well, but lack certain skills, such as flexibility, problem-solving, etc. Sound familiar?

WW how am I doing on boundaries? Perhaps not so well. My push to take most of the responsibility of the children seems to have backfired a little now that my wife and I are staying together. She is focused on her work and doesn't do much to help, and I'm trying for myself to gauge how much is OK and how much amounts to treating me a little bit like a slave. I stated clearly in the SW session that I am OK to give her more free time than me, but that I need some, too. But I haven't stepped up and really asked for it yet besides a 40 min nap this past weekend. The dynamic in our relationship here is still kind of messed up after her 4 years at home. I need to work on this.

When the moment is right I will communicate I want counseling for myself sometimes, which would be the first use of my free time. Later would be the singing class and some social time with friends.

~ROE

[AskingWhy]

When the moment is right I will communicate I want counseling for myself sometimes, which would be the first use of my free time. Later would be the singing class and some social time with friends.

~ROE

Are you sure you want to disclose that you want to go to counseling?  Perhaps this should be done without the knowledge of the spouse?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi AskingWhy, excellent question.

I did actually do counseling in private for a few months, mostly over the phone during my break at work. With our kids, it's very hard to do something like that without the other's signoff since someone needs to watch them.
 
We have reached a somewhat more open place in our life. My wife acknowledged she was sick with our marital counselor during the last session, in which we spoke about her disordered behavior in the open. My wife sees our counselor on her own sometimes. I don't feel any need to hide it at this point; in fact I want to drive it home that I need certain things to continue on in this relationship. I used to take them in secret, but I want her to know my agreeing to life with her is not without conditions with regards to my needs.

But if there was no issue over the kids or time, I would probably just continue doing it privately.

~ROE

[pearlsw]

We have reached a somewhat more open place in our life. My wife acknowledged she was sick with our marital counselor during the last session, in which we spoke about her disordered behavior in the open.

Hi ROE,

Nice to hear she is able to have some self-awareness! Perhaps in time she will want to take up more responsibility with the kids? Is it too stressful for her, sets her off too much?

If you can't sing in the choir do you at least get to sing at home, with your kids maybe? Any singing? I have a terrible voice, but I love to sing and try to sneak it in any chance i get - the shower, while driving, while walking, at home to "narrate" the things I do or make jokes, etc., etc.!  It is a great mood elevator!

wishing you the best, always, pearl.

[Enabler]

explosive children and it often sounds like they are writing about someone with BPD. The idea is understanding behaviorally challenged children as people who want to do well, but lack certain skills, such as flexibility, problem-solving, etc. Sound familiar?

I am a firm believer that there are no such thing as bad kids... .

There are kids who have yet to learn to control their emotional impulses
There are kids who have learnt to get reward from negative interactions with others (attention seeking)
There are kids who are simply not having their emotional or physical needs met and therefore doing what they can to get those basic needs met

I even think that even kids with ADHD, learning difficulties & Autism come into those 3 buckets. Maybe they will never be able to learn due to a cognitive anomaly. A pwBPD definitely falls into these categories. I have found 'training' on my kids beneficial in practicing for my wife, but also in gaining a much much deeper understanding on how I can love my kids better... .and I won't deny get stuff done with minimal fuss. Maintaining boundaries with kids is a great example, kids are natural boundary bashers, they will wriggle and roll, twist and turn, lie till the cows come home to get some perceived need (that need might be to not have a bath). The good thing about this training ground is that kids environment is a lot less damaging, far fewer consequences for you and them if you get it wrong. Once you can see what happening you can stay centered in the chaos and actually make sense of it all... .it's astonishingly liberating. Once centered you're in a way better place to make higher probability choices focused on OUTCOMES and LEARNING. Do not expect him to like you for it, you're a parent, not his best mate... .but he will learn to respect and trust you, which will then enable him to love you.

I'm almost certain this will have a positive impact on the anxiety you've experienced... .and actually your son's level of anxiety.

It will very likely p!ss your W off enormously as his behavior improves around you. She will likely continue to wheel out her 'methods'.

Always be learning

Enabler