Ex is threatening not to return the kids

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In a text conversation today my ex has threatened to not return our children unless I agree to do changeover at McDonalds. He is concerned that I will accuse him of something if we are not in a public place.

I feel like he is blackmailing me to agree to this. Am I better just to agree to it this time to get the kids back and then sort it with the lawyer next week?

[BreatheFirst]

In a text conversation today my ex has threatened to not return our children unless I agree to do changeover at McDonalds. He is concerned that I will accuse him of something if we are not in a public place.

I feel like he is blackmailing me to agree to this. Am I better just to agree to it this time to get the kids back and then sort it with the lawyer next week?

[david]

A lot of exchanges happen at a public place for the reason he expressed so that is probably not an issue with the courts.

 My ex filed three protection orders against me because she claimed she was scared I was going to harm her. I never gave her any reason to feel that way but that is the way she felt or she simply wanted to be in the victim role. In fact, because of her constant allegations against me I had it written in our court order that, during pick ups, ex is to stay in her residence until my car drives away with the boys. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times she has disregarded that part of our order. She even used to walk up to my car and try to start something. I carry a small video camera, which I made sure she knows I have, so if she comes towards me I turn it on and point it at her.

In the beginning there were a lot of "disagreements" between the two of us.  I tend to avoid confrontation so ex initiated most of the "disagreements". I learned that, if they were trivial matters, I would agree and the less emotion or "disagreement" I displayed the less ex initiated such things. I wasn't giving her what she was looking for which was engagement. It used to be said here a lot that, " negative engagement is still engagement". That has taken many levels of understanding for me. The less I engaged the better things have gotten for the boys and I. We only communicate through email. If ex sends a nasty email I simply ignore it. Trying to engage with a blank wall stops most people from trying to continue to engage.

[ForeverDad]

For the first few years all our in-person exchanges were done at the sheriff's office.  (We had protection orders against each other so any approaches had to be where officers of the court were present or nearby.)  Even there she once in a while turned to the officer behind the window and claimed that I made her fearful.  Go figure.  That 'neutral ground' was out of the way and a hassle to meet there so over time we started making occasional shortcuts to nearby gas stations or parking lots.  Again, neutral ground.  Yeah, she sometimes got triggered and called me names or said she'd take me to court but exchanging on neutral areas worked for years.

Once he became school age we avoided many exchange encounters by using school or daycare.  That worked most of the time, well, once limits were set for her sense of entitlement.

Son is older now and in high school, we've been doing the 'normal' exchange at my home or hers.  She still doesn't want me to approach her vehicle.

While most orders do have standard boilerplate clauses for exchanging, picking up or dropping off at the other parent's residence, that is impractical for high conflict cases like ours, at least at first, where confrontations could easily occur.

[livednlearned]

It's a reasonable request that is probably safer for you.

Using blackmail isn't such a great way to go about communicating it 

Do you have any reservations about doing the exchange somewhere public?

[Nope]

I can totally understand not wanting to let this kind of blackmail work as a control tactic. But yes, you are better off just getting the kids back and then coming to some sort of permanent arrangement for a public place for pick up and drop off to occur.

If at all possible try to get a specific location and time for pick up and drop offs included in a court order. It'll solve this as a problem going forward. Unfortunately, until there is something about it in an order you will need to negotiate this with him. My DH had this problem when the kids lived with their uBPD mom. We'd drive or fly out to see them and then have to go on a wild goose chase as she changed the pick up time and location to suit her whims.

[BreatheFirst]

I would prefer for the kids sake they just go to each home. Handing over in McDonalds feels like we are exchanging a package or something. Plus I will have to drag them out if the playground as they will not want to get back in the car.

He has had a go at me there before. It offers me no more safety or security than at home or his place.

He is holding the kids to ransom today.

I ensure court orders include the location and times. This is terrible that people use the children like this.

[david]

It is terrible people use kids like this. Things my ex did like this proved that divorce was the best course of action. No reasoning/explaining/etc would change my exs' mind. In fact, the more I tried to reason/explain the worse things got. Negative engagement is still engagement. That used to be said on this site a lot and it is one of the things that helped me get over this kind of stuff.
 
Having a rock solid custody order that handled all scenarios was the only thing that helped me. It took me three years to get most of the custody order right. The first one had too many loopholes. Eventually I figured out all the issues we were having and found solutions. In court I offered all the solutions as modifications to the order. Ex had nothing to offer except to say I was abusive without proof since there wasn't any.

[livednlearned]

Did he return them to your home?

He is holding the kids to ransom today.

I can understand why you would feel that way.

It's better for you in the long run to characterize his behaviors as accurately as possible. No need to say to others that he is holding them ransom because that makes you seem reactive.

People will have a harder time figuring out what the real problem is and how best to help you. Same with the word abduction, which has a legal meaning and protocols for resolving.

If the problem is that he says he will not return the kids at the stated time and place per the custody order, then a reasonable response is to email him back, "The court order states that exchanges take place at our respective homes. I will wait at my house for the kids at x o'clock."

That's a BIFF response (recommended by Bill Eddy, author of Splitting).

If he doesn't bring the kids, then you document his refusal to not follow court orders and let him know what you will do next time. Then you follow through.

"Per the custody order, the kids are exchanged at place/time. See the exact phrasing pasted below. If you wish to modify the order, please contact your lawyer and file a modification with the court. Until the order is modified, the exchanges take place where specified in our current order."

[ForeverDad]

My ex was especially free with her emotions and vitriol (def: cruel and bitter criticism) in phone calls and exchanges.  I got into the habit of recording calls and exchanges but quietly without making any scenes.  Yes, it could be claimed that I was recording her, but I always viewed it as me recording myself (as david does) to document (AKA insurance to help stay out of jail) that I wasn't being aggressive or abusive.  If she happened to get recorded too, well, then she ought to be careful how she vents... .

[BreatheFirst]

I had to go pick up the kids.

We do not have any court orders in place yet.  My post should have read I will need to ensure we have it all in court orders when we get to that.

David, any advice on what loopholes to close would be much appreciated!

Livednlearned, I take your point about protecting myself by not using emotive language.  I have learnt recently the big reactions people have to literal words, especially people with PDs.

My ex was recording me at the changeover.  It felt intimidating.  He is a police officer so obviously wants to firstly protect his job but also perhaps get evidence on me.

How is this any good for the children? He is only thinking of himself. Sorry, just feeling angry and upset about it all.

[ForeverDad]

Video recording?  I didn't video, only voice recorded, that way I could let it sit in a pocket out of sight.  Back then we didn't have video on phones.  Now you can find all sorts of subtle recording devices, one of the first I noticed was pencams that even wrote too.  If he was making a production of it then likely he was trying to intimidate.

Ask your lawyer if he, as an officer of the court, has to comply with additional state or local rules regarding recording.

Meanwhile, always behave angelic, no screaming back at his traps and taunts, don't lose your temper, not even once, don't do or say anything that he could twist to make you look bad.  If he gets you upset, vent somewhere else.  Bring a trusted friend to help you if things get dicey.

[livednlearned]

He is a police officer

Mine was a former trial attorney. I think when ex's with PDs are employed anywhere in or close to the legal system things get extra complicated.

David is so right about loopholes, which may be even more important for your case in particular. Of the high conflict divorces, those that involve legal abuse tend to be the highest conflict. Your ex is tipping his hand a bit -- he is implying that you are dangerous to him (projection probably, or he is preparing to document you as unstable).

Most lawyers will whip together a parenting plan or custody order based on whatever is agreed upon, and it won't be nearly as tight as you need.

A loophole might be that it says when and where the exchange is. Then your ex delays dropping them off, or changes the location, or doesn't show up to get them on time.

Closing that loophole might be that if you lose time because of last-minute changes (under an hour or less), then you will add that hour to your time with the kids. You may also specify that neither parent will get out of the car during exchange, which works better if the kids are old enough. My order said that ex could not park in the driveway, could not get out of the car, and could not under any circumstances approach the house. Back then, I would record him with my phone if he got out of the car, but now even doorbells record people approaching the home. 

That may not be what's relevant to your situation, it's just an example. Think through every way your ex will mess with the order, and come up with creative ways you can solve those issues without having to go back to court.

I found with my ex that I needed to think up reasonable consequences for non-compliance and make sure those consequences were spelled out in the order. Otherwise when I went back to court to file a motion for contempt, the judge would dither and give ex another bite of the apple. If there was a consequence spelled out in the order, the judge would order that consequence, which moved things in my favor and saved me from coming back to court yet again.

Your L won't understand -- this stuff has to come from you. And it's best to let your L write up your order (usually it's a courtesy thing between both Ls, where one will offer). Make sure your L knows you want him/her to write it up, even though it will cost you and ask to see the draft before you go back to court to have it entered. Look for places where you know your ex is likely to mess with you, and add reasonable consequences for non-compliance (for both parties, even though he will be the one not complying).

I shouldn't assume that your case will end up in front of a judge but I'm a little jaded 

What are your biggest concerns with him and parenting the kids?