Timing..,who’s on first and where? (Part 3)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi everyone,
I’m sorry for the long silence. We are safe.
The task to prioritize is somewhat figured out. It looks kind of like Rock Paper Scissors.
A quick update, S5 and I are back in the house, and my husband does not know we were at the shelter. I was able to prove that we were farm sitting for a local friend, complete with pictures of us with their livestock. That bought be some time.
I saw the 3rd attorney on my friends list, and retained her. I am thankful to have someone to file for me, if I can tell my husband is about to file. She wants to know immediately, to be able to beat him to it. Hm. Promise number one that I’ll believe when I see.

Sigh. A big issue here, in this county and state, is that family law cases are not considered on their own merit. They are compared to the general populous of vagrants, addicts, and low life. Our situation is upper middle class. So, basically, I think the whole of the attorneys I have talked to in this town, have said, none of what I have to say about my husband’s danger to me, myself, or himself, will be taken seriously. Argh.

Aparantly, the judges are elected. There’s only 3. They use a play dough mold to push though all family divorce and custody cases. No matter what it looks like, they don’t care, they’ll just put it through the mold. Yuck.

I am back in gray rock mode, van packed and ready to exit, safety plan in place. Appeasing my husband, and monitoring the “temperature” of things.

I’m in taking care of business mode, I suppose. My eyes are set on doing the next right thin. Whatever that seems to be. Tomorrow is grad schoolwork day. Momday, I will call attorneys in larger towns in my state. See if they are interested in filing my case ASAP. The one I retained, said that right this minute, with all the pieces I told her, that a divorce is the last thing I need. Geez. I can’t win for losing here. But, she has 30 years of experience here. I’m certain she’s telling me the truth. Because the past 2 I’ve seen in the past week have said the same thing.

The women in my dv support group have as well. They share full joint custody with their abuser, even though they were beaten and left for dead. Men rule here. Father’s rights rules here. A news story broke this week, with the horror that an abusive ex husband killed his daughter and then himself. He was given overnight visitation right, in spite of his conduct.

So, making to my parents in October is 1st, the scissors. It comes with a week in person at grad school, where I need S5 tucked in safely with them, NOT my husband.  But discovering he will file first is the rock, that breaks the scissors.

The 2/3 savings is a battle I would yield, just to win the war. 3k something is a whole lot less than lifetime alimony. But we haven’t been alone lone enough for that discussion. He had gone to his parents to see his visiting brother, this weekend. We have had peace.

That will end by sunup, I’m sure. All is planned for tomorrow, schoolwork, exit plan, etc.

Sorry to worry everyone. It’s been a strange week.
S5 and I are really sick. One of my husband’s covert things to do is purposefully germ up things. It’s an old trick he said he used to play on guys in college. He collects phlegm and mucus in a plastic water bottle, let’s it ferment, and paints in on door handles and such, just for fun.

When we got back, my shower was super mildewed. He said he didn’t use it, but I cleaned it well before we left. He also left behind tell tale tiny pieces of soap. He uses soap down to the bits, and I toss it when it gets small, but is still while.

So, I didn’t think ahead to him booby trapping my shower with biological warfare. But, it seems he did. We will be ok. Lots of meds, fluids and rest.

There is so much undercurrent of evil motives here I sense with him.  I’m almost positive his true diagnosis is a combination of antisocial, narcissistic, childhood sexual abuse, and eating disorder non specified. Disorganized attachment style. Obstinate, depressive. Yuck. I wish there were something I could do to help him. To help us, and our family. For now, that’s just doing the next right thing, whatever it is.

I’ll check in when I can.
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
I’m sorry for the long silence. We are safe.
The task to prioritize is somewhat figured out. It looks kind of like Rock Paper Scissors.
A quick update, S5 and I are back in the house, and my husband does not know we were at the shelter. I was able to prove that we were farm sitting for a local friend, complete with pictures of us with their livestock. That bought be some time.
I saw the 3rd attorney on my friends list, and retained her. I am thankful to have someone to file for me, if I can tell my husband is about to file. She wants to know immediately, to be able to beat him to it. Hm. Promise number one that I’ll believe when I see.

Sigh. A big issue here, in this county and state, is that family law cases are not considered on their own merit. They are compared to the general populous of vagrants, addicts, and low life. Our situation is upper middle class. So, basically, I think the whole of the attorneys I have talked to in this town, have said, none of what I have to say about my husband’s danger to me, myself, or himself, will be taken seriously. Argh.

Aparantly, the judges are elected. There’s only 3. They use a play dough mold to push though all family divorce and custody cases. No matter what it looks like, they don’t care, they’ll just put it through the mold. Yuck.

I am back in gray rock mode, van packed and ready to exit, safety plan in place. Appeasing my husband, and monitoring the “temperature” of things.

I’m in taking care of business mode, I suppose. My eyes are set on doing the next right thin. Whatever that seems to be. Tomorrow is grad schoolwork day. Momday, I will call attorneys in larger towns in my state. See if they are interested in filing my case ASAP. The one I retained, said that right this minute, with all the pieces I told her, that a divorce is the last thing I need. Geez. I can’t win for losing here. But, she has 30 years of experience here. I’m certain she’s telling me the truth. Because the past 2 I’ve seen in the past week have said the same thing.

The women in my dv support group have as well. They share full joint custody with their abuser, even though they were beaten and left for dead. Men rule here. Father’s rights rules here. A news story broke this week, with the horror that an abusive ex husband killed his daughter and then himself. He was given overnight visitation right, in spite of his conduct.

So, making to my parents in October is 1st, the scissors. It comes with a week in person at grad school, where I need S5 tucked in safely with them, NOT my husband.  But discovering he will file first is the rock, that breaks the scissors.

The 2/3 savings is a battle I would yield, just to win the war. 3k something is a whole lot less than lifetime alimony. But we haven’t been alone lone enough for that discussion. He had gone to his parents to see his visiting brother, this weekend. We have had peace.

That will end by sunup, I’m sure. All is planned for tomorrow, schoolwork, exit plan, etc.

Sorry to worry everyone. It’s been a strange week.
S5 and I are really sick. One of my husband’s covert things to do is purposefully germ up things. It’s an old trick he said he used to play on guys in college. He collects phlegm and mucus in a plastic water bottle, let’s it ferment, and paints in on door handles and such, just for fun.

When we got back, my shower was super mildewed. He said he didn’t use it, but I cleaned it well before we left. He also left behind tell tale tiny pieces of soap. He uses soap down to the bits, and I toss it when it gets small, but is still while.

So, I didn’t think ahead to him booby trapping my shower with biological warfare. But, it seems he did. We will be ok. Lots of meds, fluids and rest.

There is so much undercurrent of evil motives here I sense with him.  I’m almost positive his true diagnosis is a combination of antisocial, narcissistic, childhood sexual abuse, and eating disorder non specified. Disorganized attachment style. Obstinate, depressive. Yuck. I wish there were something I could do to help him. To help us, and our family. For now, that’s just doing the next right thing, whatever it is.

I’ll check in when I can.
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi forever dad,

yes you are right about the beware. He is gearing up to be the victim.
Financially, spiritually in church. It’s alarmng. I will need to dedicate some time to proving that I am not unfrugal. He has an entire long hand written few pages of entries and withdrawals from savings. It seems legit, because it’s longhand, in a notebook. But truly, he has our emergency savings squirreled away, because he didn’t allow his bonus and tax return to fill the annual gaps in unplanned emergencies. Ugh. Filling in my financial logs is a huge task. But it will have to be done. Thanks for the vote of confidence. And the heads up. Point well taken, but I am intimidated, and overwhelmed. It’s like eating that elephant, one bite at a time. Thanks, so much for the input.
Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig, it's good to hear from you.  Glad you are safe.  Sorry about the germ warfare, that's a new one.  Gross.  Sounds like a few bottles of hand sanitizer might be in order, or a travel one to carry in your pocket.

It sounds like you are doing your homework and being careful to plan and not react suddenly.  Good luck keeping things calm and hitting a sustainable groove of some sort.  Do you feel safe?

I have an out-of-left-field question for you.  Are you exercising?  Something aerobic, to get endorphins going and help process the stress?

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
I will try typing on my laptop this time, since it is out.  Sorry about the texted posts from my phone, those are full of typos, .

WW,
I don't feel safe, not completely, ever.  Somewhat, at times, yes, but never completely.  Like right now, he is gone.  I am safe.  Yet, I sense the danger that will come again, when he comes home.  I allow myself to disconnect from it, but I know I must revisit the possibilities, to give myself time to prepare ahead.  It's like setting an alarm.  Or keeping a pot stirred so it doesn't stick on the bottom.  It always needs attending periodically.  

On our recent return trip, from my parents house to here, my intuition and our online, (mostly real-time) phone logs informed me of the possibility that my husband had enlisted the help of one of his mean childhood buddies to help intimidate me.  That was on the money.

That buddy was here, watching our house, waiting for me, the night we were supposed to arrive home.  

I know, because of my husband's text message log, where the buddy texted him at 12:30 am, my husband answered him, and then I got the angry call from my husband, wanting to know where we were, and why we were not back at home yet. (My husband was out of town for work)

We were safely tucked in, an additional night in a town a few hours away, all because my husband was being intimidating about the savings check over the phone.  

I also checked with his buddy's ex-wife, who is one of my friends.  She did a drive by of his house that night, and let me know, that his car was there, but his motorcycle was not.  We live within a decent motorcycle ride from them, maybe less than 3 hours.  

The choice to enter the shelter and stay there, the next day, was the right one.  
 
So... .that leads up to this point.  

To say my husband is angry is an understatement.  The incidents today resembled a 9 year old boy's temper tantrum, when he didn't get what he wanted.  I was afraid, yet quiet.  He doesn't yell.  It's the look in his eyes, the coldness and hatred in his expression.  His words and actions seem measured, purposeful.

S5 is sick with the possible germ warfare.  I documented his fever, with the date and time, and meds I gave to treat it.  Yet, my husband took s5 outside today, to play, in the heat, at the noon hour.  Humidity and real temp felt like 101, according to the weather app.  Yet my husband threw a tantrum about bringing s5 in.  He actually did a crazy looking, whiny-dance mockery of my asking him to bring in s5.  He made ugly nagging faces, pretending to be me, behind s5's back, so only I could see it.  It looked nuts.  I wish I had a video of it.  

Then, later on, he did something intimidating and threatening that he did once before, earlier in the year.  He enters my personal space, nearly nose to nose with me, and talks harshly, with a scary, wide-eyed, threatening tone.  He refuses to back up.  My dad says, he is trying to get me to hit him.  He is instigating a physical altercation, and not to fall for that, to back up.  

So, I have my marching orders for tomorrow... .housekeeping issues with my grad school internship, next semester, etc., and a trip to the spy supply store, in the next town over.  Time to buy a covert, wearable video camera.  And no, I do not feel safe doing that either.  And I feel incredibly bad that my dad is funding all of this.  I am figuring out what needs to be done next, weighing options, safety, making adjustments, preparations, and putting one foot in front of the other.  

I will also make calls to DV attorneys in the closest large cities.  Most advertise free phone consultations.  But I will not let all of that waste a beautiful day to make memories with S5.  Kindergarten has started with us, and we have schoolwork that must come first!  

Finding a balance.  I guess if I stir each pot a little, and keep rotating them, it will all get done eventually.  

So funny you should ask about exercise.  I have been working this week on sleep hygiene... .adding new nightly supplements and making sure I take a shower before bed, to help my limbic system and quality of sleep.  I also pulled out a cardio machine out of the garage and set it up in the living room, ready to go for part of our days.  So, sleep, with new supplements, a shower, and earlier bedtime, will lead to earlier mornings, feeling more rested, and able to shift into stretching and ease into cardio? That's the plan. But for now, I chase s5 around the yard, up and down the driveway, and the street with his bicycle.  That's fun too, when my husband is gone.  Doesn't work at all when he is here.

My husband stated repeatedly today, that when we were alone next, that we HAD TO TALK.  Hear a harsh, threatening, intimidating tone.  He thinks something has to change.  I wonder what combination of threats and intimidations this TALK will entail?  Money, divorce, separation, parenting choices, accusations of some sort? I don't know.  

I do not want to have that talk alone.  I need to figure out how to do that talk in public, with s5 tucked away safely at a friend's house.  I thought of insisting he put down what he has to say in writing, and give him a new notebook.  It is school supply season, we have new notebooks.  Surely, we will end up communicating only in writing at some point, right?  Why not start now?  He will never go for that.  He wants to see me afraid, and be submitted to his temper.  That I am certain of.  

Options... .adding to the Rock, Paper, Scissors plan: Make it to my parent in October = scissors.  Him filing first = rock.  Fleeing for safety if danger feels immediate = paper.  
Other items on the list:
Managing his chaos:
1) covert wearable video recorder, 2) arrange a friend on standby to keep s5 sometime this week, 3) notice any important items left in the house, that I can get out while he's gone to work, 4) call locksmith to get into the large safe, see what he has hidden in it that I don't have access to, 5) scan possibilities for other proactive measures I could be taking... .? maybe speak to the dv detective, touch base with him; look into martial arts class "for s5", but really for both of us, 6) make a list of things to say for this "talk" he wants to have.  
Managing me:
1) future schoolwork calls, internship arrangements, 2) self care, 3) gather items to sell, need extra cash... .maybe yard sale? maybe list online?, any part time flexible work from home option to gain extra cash? explore possibilities some.
Taking care of S5
1) Kindergarten lessons, play, and making memories.  

Of all the things on the list, this "Talk" he wants to have, scares me the most.  It will not be a reasonable, sound, adult conversation.  It will be twisted, blame shifted, and full of yuck.  

It occurred to me, we are in the dog days of summer... .the heat is horrific.  He always seems to get scary during the heat.  Also, the crime rate goes up this time of year because of the heat too.  So, I wonder what affect the heat is having on his mood.  He is not eating well.  Only vegetables and some canned chicken.  He is very very thin.  No red meat, no carbs.  It's like eating disorder, nos.  That's my guess.  

Sorry for the rambling!
I want to pack S5 and myself, flee this place and file for divorce, and a protection order. What am I missing that I can’t do that? Seems every attorney says not to do that. Isn’t that my call? Don’t I have the ball? What am I missing that I can’t get the legal system to roll?

Any thoughts?
Dig

[Radcliff]

Miscellaneous things:
* Can you copy the phone logs off the Internet (e.g., by printing the Web page to a .pdf file) so you can archive it?  The timing of his calls to your buddy and you would be nice to document.
* I'm sure you've described him going nose-to-nose with you in your journal.
* Video -- could be good, but be careful.  Avoid the temptation to "set up" an incident to get documentation.
* Good luck on exercise and sleep improvements!
* Do you have any levers you can pull to relax him?  Family trip to an air conditioned mall?  Other ideas?

I want to pack S5 and myself, flee this place and file for divorce, and a protection order. What am I missing that I can’t do that? Seems every attorney says not to do that. Isn’t that my call? Don’t I have the ball? What am I missing that I can’t get the legal system to roll?

Let me turn that around and ask you.  What reasons have you and your advisors come up with for not taking action yet?

What do the attorneys say to do?  Have any advised on an exit strategy that seems reasonable to you?  What have the DV folks advised on exit strategy?

WW

[livednlearned]

When we try to describe BPD behaviors, sometimes it can seem like we are paranoid.

My ex was friendly with a professor in my graduate program -- a super creepy guy with deep coding/programming skills, who studies hacker culture and the darker side of the Internet.

At one point in my program, I was mysteriously unenrolled, a serious problem that left unchecked would jeopardize my fellowship and tuition reimbursement, not to mention the bureaucratic headache of reenrolling, which could've taken a whole year to fix. I had been friendly with an administrative assistant who randomly stumbled across the problem and reached out to me as a friend to see if I was indeed dropping out of the program.

I was certain at the time that my ex was behind this.

I will never know.

The point is that there was no proof, and it would've made me seem excessively paranoid to try and explain these behaviors without sounding crazy. You cannot afford to sound crazy. My former boss was in an abusive relationship and knew what was happening in my marriage, was tremendously supportive, and had my back every step of the way. She told me what I am telling you  -- if it makes you sound crazy, don't say it. Instead, create a document trail for something else that is persuasive. Do a deposition, or get a custody evaluation, or get a third-party professional involved who can testify that your H endangers your son.

You may find that your ex's behaviors are too covert, too under the radar, too plausibly denied to use them without damaging your own credibility.

If that's the case, then the next step is to use legal tools to shine light on your situation.

Rock, paper, scissors is a good metaphor. It's probability. There is gambling involved in all of our cases. Like you say, there is a big gamble in protecting S5 during the early stages of separation (e.g. keeping him with you) only to have the court determine later that there will be joint custody and 50/50 visitation. But protecting him (even if the courts get ticked off) may be worth it because you hedge your bets and keep S5 safe during what could be the most tumultuous time. You just need a lawyer to help you understand what you can get away with while coloring inside the lines of regular legal proceedings.

And remember, what feels like life or death to us is just another day, another case for lawyers and judges. Help them do their jobs by recommending reasonable solutions, meanwhile use opportunities to slow down the process so you buy yourself time. I am amazed what people with BPD get away with in court, often aided by their Ls. There can be a surprising amount of leeway and a good L can help you find those pockets. Extensions, continuances, scheduling conflicts, whatever it is -- they can use them strategically to buy you time.

I get the sense lawyers are not sure what to do with your case. Is that what you are sensing? Maybe it's time to shift gears and ask them to describe a strategy for getting you the best outcome closest to your goal (that they seem to be saying isn't possible... .). Explain that your husband's behaviors are mainly covert. What evidence do they need to show he cannot put S5's best interests forward? What strategy do they recommend? What tactics do they suggest (eg. custody eval, deposition, psyche eval, etc.)

If I were a judge and you explained to me that your S5 was disabled and couldn't do x,y,z, but his dad kept putting him in a, b, c, situations, and offered me no reasonable solutions, I would be at a loss. I might say, "Parenting classes for dad. Joint custody, 50/50 visitation. Dad should go to doctor visits, mom has decision-making over medical." Boom. Next.

That's splitting the difference, and for you, that's not enough. So what is a reasonable solution? It might be something like, "Special custody evaluation that, in addition to MMPI-2 conducted by board-certified forensics trained to administer the MMPI-2, also involves a medical doctor who specializes in son's condition to help the court understand the specific needs of the child. Supervised visits for dad until the evaluation is complete. Dad needs to submit his schedule and work out visitation by day/date. See me back here in court by day/date to finalize the schedule."

This gives the judge something to work with that is reasonable. Plus, it buys you time and gets experts involved. Your H has to submit his schedule in order for everything to work, so it puts responsibility on him to do something -- and he has to demonstrate that he will do anything to move this forward. My experience is that the narcissistic injuries that go along with us leaving makes it all but impossible for them to comply with court orders. They become mired in the weeds.

I'm not saying that this is the right strategy for you, or the right tactics, only that I now assume that judges have no imagination, so they give you nothing but lumps. No one says, Hey give us some suggestions, but that's the reality of court. They want you to propose your own solution. Your ex can't do that, in all likelihood, so you get to be the one directing traffic.

Last.

It is scary to think that S5 will be alone with your H, but it is all but guaranteed that is going to happen. I can't speak for everyone here, but most seem to have had to put our children in unsafe conditions when we left. My ex was a black-out drunk who took prescription pills of all varieties and had guns in the house. He experienced psychosis and could be blacked out while functioning (alcohol + adderall) and have no recollection the next day what happened. Whether your child is 5 or 10 or 15, disabled or not disabled, it can feel like having your skin peeled off to leave a child alone with a mentally ill parent. Courts witness this day after day after day. They see the worst of the worst. I was in court on average once a month and saw a lot of other cases so tragic I can barely bring myself to describe them here. Kids were constantly being sent back to live with parents I would not even let wash my windshield.

You may find that your strategy shifts in how you parent him, to help him stay safe when he's alone with his dad. Meanwhile, you try to get the best legal outcome you can for yourself and for him. And know that even if you get a good outcome, your H may test every limit.

It's so hard and I wish it were easier.

Your protective instincts may be on overdrive right now, too, which is understandable. I clipped my son's wings during the worst years and while I regret it now, I don't know how I could've done things any different. I didn't know at the time he was on the spectrum, but instinctively I (over)protected him because his dad was a bully and our family life was dangerous. I think this overprotectiveness may have increased my ex's recklessness -- he may have been rougher with our son to offset what he seemed to think was too much nurturing from me. It is possible that your ex will dial down his recklessness when you are not there. My ex seemed to become a different kind of dad without me around, altho he also seemed to be projecting the "unsafe parent" thing onto me after the divorce, and became what I felt was overly reactive when our son got sick. Sort of like he was trying to blame me for not being a good parent if I didn't notice a scratch or bump or cough... .

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi LNL,
Thank you, SO much, what a wonderfully supportive post. Your words have kept me going and helped propel me into the next thought stage.   Those were the words I needed from an attorney. Surely there’s one somewhere that can help me keep my thoughts about “directing traffic” reasonably guided. I am glad I have one on retainer, but I will stir the pot of looking in a larger city soon.

Thank you, I can begin to see how, even though my husbands work schedule is non existent, on call and with unpredictable off days, that that is no way to live. The courts surely will want something more concrete than that. Right now, he has 48 hours off each week. Those hours bump forward one day, each week. So, one week it’s Mon-Tues, the next week is Tues Wednesday, the next is Wednesday-Thursday, etc. EVEN that is a good guess, because if he is at the away from home terminal, the 48 hours off starts when he gets home. So Monday-Tuesday can actually be last half Monday-first half Wed., or even as late as jumping forward an entire day. Ugh. But that’s not my fault, and I’ve got to set the tone by directing traffic, right? So I’ve got to demonstrate the same flexibility to share parenting as when I am married to him... .right? I get to divorce him, but not necessary the crazy unpredictable work schedule. I foresee reasonable shared parenting time being taken advantage of, and that there may be no “set in stone” days, except for his vacations.  That’s going to take some BIFF in writing parenting messages, I’m sure.

You are SO right about not sounding crazy. That is his ultimate goal here. He did it, knows I know it, and is giddy at what I sound like if I tell it. And am frantically emotional about how wrong it is. Ugh. I have the psychiatrist evaluation done, and a clean bill of mental health, but I hear you, that shade covering will only cover so much. Perception and impressions of me personally will go a long ways.

The alone time with dad... .geez you described that right. Right now, I’m able to let go and allow that in a semi-controlled way. I allow it for short periods of time, don’t let my contacts at the women’s shelter know it (because they are mandatory reporters and believe me that my husband is potentially dangerous)  and sort of prepare S5 before and sort of de-brief him afterwards. Which sounds controlling, I hear it.
S5 knows, if anything doesn’t feel right when he’s by himself with daddy, to wait to tell me when we are by ourselves, and then, that he can tell me anything, I won’t go back to tell his dad or get mad at him (S5)... .and when we are finally alone again, I ask him if he’s alright, if there’s anything he wants to talk about. Thankfully, he says I’m ok! Most of the time.
I wish I didn’t feel like I would get in trouble for leaving them alone... .it’s a broken system here.

We have all the “my body belongs to me” kind of children’s books in the van, with out homeschool stuff, hopefully, S5 will be as prepared as he can be, IF somebody tries anything like that in his life.

Yep, see, you’re right, I sound really really overprotective. I like to think of it as having run the fire drill. I taught S5 the fire drill and we practice it sometimes, or at least I remind him where the exits are some. Surely, I have to tell him to put down the toilet seat and wash his hands a gazillion times more than the safety fire drill exits. So maybe I’m not That bad.

WW, surprisingly, I have a file folder of telephone call log screen shots and some audio clips, back to back, from this summer, all ready to go. 1) audio of husband asking me what day I’ll be traveling back, followed by 2) his phone and text log, showing he hung up with me and texted evil buddy #1, who lives in the big city must pass through on the trip. The technology savvy buddy.
I’ll be adding the text and call log screen shots to evil buddy #2, that suggest 1) buddy texted my husband (possibly to let him know I wasn’t home yet), followed by 2) angry phone call from husband to me, followed by 3) another text from husband to buddy. All in a row. And one minute to the next, around 12:30am.
But I hear LNL, that junk makes me sound nuts. I’ll have the files together to defend myself, but it may be wise to not mention crazy making events.

I hedged my bets in 2 big ways this week so far: 1) I purchased covert, wearable video recorders, they are truly clever, and 2) I hired a locksmith to get into my husband’s safe. It took some planning, and cooperation from the specialist locksmith, to come as soon as we knew my husband was gone to work, and it took all day and night, but the “mission impossible” looking equipment got the combination. I can get in anytime I want. I just have to be extremely careful, take photos with my phone of anything before I touch it, so I can put it back precisely. And do it while S5 is napping, so there’s no danger of the beans getting spilled. It helps me know what he’s up to a little more.
The video recorders are not up and running yet, I’m having trouble formatted the micro sd cards for them, but I’ll stir that pot again soon too.

Homeschool kindergarten is in full swing here, I’m teaching S5 how to read and write.
So, the exit plan, self care, and such are still in full swing.
Hmm, I’m modifying spelling, and the last of my post is gone? Hm. I’ll rewrite it later.
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

WW,
The DV group and the legal group have opposing sets of values and priorities.
DV = safety at all costs
Legal = maneuver at all costs.
Dig

[livednlearned]

Thank you, I can begin to see how, even though my husbands work schedule is non existent, on call and with unpredictable off days, that that is no way to live. The courts surely will want something more concrete than that.

Plus your schedule, too, don't forget. Right now you are homeschooling S5. Eventually you will be working. What will that schedule look like? Do you intend to continue homeschooling S5?

Here's another (admittedly out of left field) thought. Can you contact the local newspaper and ask them if they'd be interested in writing about people with your son's medical condition? Idk. It seems like you may need some help explaining what your son is up against. I remember you said the first lawyer was familiar with the condition, and that's one of the reasons why you wanted to retain him. How can you help people understand why your H is endangering your child?

The other alternative is that you have a medical professional describe the condition and what he considers safe or unsafe things for S5 to do.

Otherwise it's your word against your H's over something most people won't understand.

[Radcliff]

Dig, I'm not at all surprised you have that documentation ready to go!

I think your discussion with LnL about describing crazy making events is a good one.  It's good to have it documented, and you may or may not go there.  That evidence of the evil buddy coordination sounds pretty compelling to me to describe coercive control.  It could come in handy, or not be necessary.  Self-contained, simple things really were the most compelling in my case -- the kind of things that were immediately evident without explanation.  The most striking example is the expression on my wife's face on video and the contempt in her voice as she trapped me in the bathroom.  The professionals that viewed that were really struck by it.

It can definitely be a challenge to integrate the advice of the different camps, but that's your job, and you're doing very well at it.

WW

[ForeverDad]

I recorded starting a few months before our marriage publicly imploded.  I could see the path ahead and wanted some sort of insurance I could prove I wasn't the aggressive one and she wasn't acting privately like the victim she was claiming to be publicly.

Years of recordings and nothing reached court.  Partly my lawyer said it wouldn't help.  Partly too courts have had a history of claiming not to know the truth of a matter, having insufficient time for addressing recordings and not knowing how complete a recording really was, whether edited or a trap set for the unwary other spouse/parent.

That said, with all the recording apps available these days, it's hard for court to ignore recordings.  I entered the court saga in late 2005.  It was only at my last time in court, two full days in late 2013, that some of my recordings were played.  I already was Legal Guardian for a couple years at that point.

My last time in court I was trying to get majority time... .  So there I was, back in court playing recordings of the ex's phone demands and games regarding exchanges.  The court decision later even commented, "In the tapes Mother is often yelling so loudly that it is difficult to endure listening to her."  The decision noted, six times, that I was being disparaged, one quote is "continued disparagement of Father to the child".

Did times change over those 8 years?  Or did all the professionals finally agree what happened when my ex was outside the hearing of professionals did matter finally since her conflict hadn't lessened after all those years as they had expected?  Possibly both?

Whether or not your recording of poor behaviors makes it into court, the consensus here is that the professionals around court can listen and it can help you.  Men/fathers are clued in that having a recording of the supposed domestic 'incident', often where the spouse claims to be the victim and he risks being carted away by default procedure, can cause the police to rethink arresting him on the spouse's unsubstantiated claims.  PwBPD have a hard time not being aggressive and demanding when they think they're not being observed, like the relationship/marriage grants them special privilege to let loose.  My ex knew I had recorded in the past and she taunted me, Go ahead and record!

In my own life, I recall playing two recordings for CPS where my son is saying to paraphrase, "Look daddy at my bruise... .Maybe I got it on the monkey bars when I was with mommy at the park."  The allegation to hospital and thereafter referred to CPS (with a comment in medical notes by the interviewing nurse that he was a very active boy in the ER) was that I had gotten enraged at my son and beat him on his shins, of all places.  Yep, right where active boy bruises are often located.

[Dignity&Strength]

So forever dad, the cps allegations were disproven by the recording you had? That sounds promising. And you had years of recordings that never made it to court. I think I will be able to say the same thing. The early recordings, that were on a different recorder, hidden in the house instead of worn. Those did not turn out so good, and there was not a way to hear those visually. The worn recorder I have now can be listened to with computer software where the sounds are visible on the screen. So I can click to where there is large images on the screen and have a bigger chance of finding the needle in the haystack faster.

A quandary, I think I have decided to attempt, or explore/practice with this week... .holding my breath, some of you guys won’t agree with this I’m sure... .

S5 told me this week, a few days ago, while he and daddy were outside, that daddy told him I didn’t love him, and he needed him to be mean to mommy. S5 said that made his heart really really sad, because he thought it might be true. S5 says he wants to “wear mommy’s proof” so I can hear what daddy says, so I can get somebody to help us. Sadness and deep breath here, this is SO much more than S5 needs to bear.

But I have in mind a place to hide it, where it wouldn’t be found. A plan, to put it there, send them outside to play, and take it out when they come in. S5 says he is sure I’ll get it. I do not like that, for many reasons. It is a stretch legally, of the 4th amendment. I am a private citizen, so I can’t obtain a warrant for probable cause for surveillance. My best bet, it to get it, try to admit it, and chance the opposing attorney to try to have it suppressed, or charge me with obtaining it illegally, because S5 is under the age of consent.
BUT, S5 tells me, there are places inside where daddy takes him to tell him ugly things to say and do to me. Like the garage and attic. I could legally hide a recorder there, without involving hiding it on s5’s person. I like that better.

But really, I just read the actual protection from abuse order form for my state, and it words harm to children as “tortured or willfully abused plaintiff’s children” . Nothing about willful or negligent child endangerment. No, it has to rise to the level of “willful torture”.
Geez. I wonder is telling a boy that his mommy doesn’t love him qualities? Somehow I doubt it.

I totally get that men are clued in on recordings. I actually found one my husband did of a phone cal, where he is lying about his actions and had me upset and had me “falling on the sword” to get him not to move out last year. I had to not accuse him so much, but de escalate him. That sounded awful. And gave him too much ammunition that wasn’t the truth. But it was me talking, trying to calm him down. It was after I called the police the last time.

Getting into his paperwork stash he thinks is safe from me feels horribly wrong to me, but I am thankful I found it. I am being meticulously careful to put it back precisely as I found It, going as far as to take cell phone photos before I move anything, so I can reference where it goes, exactly.

This is exhausting.
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

WW,
Your posts give me the bests ideas sometimes. I already know the local newspaper story author, we are friends on social media, and take our kiddos to the same out of town specialty doctor. What a brilliant idea. She gave me her contacts from the animal rescue piece she did to help me with emergency fosters in case we had to go to shelter. We share mommy info like that. Hmm. Maybe she could.

Also, I DO have a video of him, with anger and contempt, right after he trapped me in my bathroom and wouldn’t let me out. I pulled my phone out and started recording. His demeanor instantly changed, and as I called him out for it, you could see the expression on his face, still threatening, and his finger still pointing, although he had his voice a little more under control. Maybe that will help.

I do understand the courts concern about recordings, and one spouse setting another up to get false sounding evidence. The phone call tape I found of us is exactly that. I can be proactive, write up general dialogue and explain. But that takes up time on things that are  not true.

I suppose I can do that with any evidence he has twisted that I have found. Prepare an explanation with any evidence I have.

This is not pretty. I want to pack this house up, the things that are mine from before our marriage, and flee. The horrible news story out of Colorado, and ones like it scare the dickens out of me.

I am afraid because of what I know from grad school. Even though I am not qualified to diagnose him, I know him well enough and know just enough to come cextremely close, right down to major disorders and v codes... .

I wonder, how it will sound to professionals that I have already proactively had a full psych evaluation?

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

LNL,
How do you do a deposition? I think I have reason to get a few, because of some false statements made in a letter to both of us, from our church a few years ago. Basically, the letter stated what they saw as my husband’s problems, and what they saw as mine. But the things they said about me, in relation to a short list of other people was absolutely false. If I could document the falseness of that statement, that would help.

I found the letter in my husband’s secret stash of evidence documents.
The list was in reference to people I had “cut out of my life” when I “disagreed with that they had to say”. But with the exception of my sister and our family of origin issues, the list is a false statement of what really happened. In one instance, our counselor was listed, yet I would have continued to see him. He refused to see me anymore, because I nursed SInfant, even discreetly totally covered, so the baby wouldn’t cry during the counseling session. He said he couldn’t see me anymore, and referred me to a female counselor, who it turns out, had her counseling license revoked by the state for unethical behavior. So there’s 2 people in that list, where I didn’t “cut somebody out of my life I disagreed with”. The license revoked one is easy, that’s public record online of her disbarment. But HOW could I get a straight answer deposition from a southern baptist preacher/counselor who terminated the counseling relationship? He’s not going to own up to the reason of my nursing, concealed, because discrimination for that is illegal. Any ideas?

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Since I uncovered today, for the first time, his recording and paperwork “evidence” stash in the house, I feel a huge twisting pain in my gut. I knew how covert and lying his behaviors are, but I suppose this feeling is a knowing, that this marriage is really over. More than I’ve ever felt it before, or this strongly.
Some last lingering thoughts from this day, while I have them... .
1) I truly truly wish my marriage and family could be saved, no matter what it takes to get us to a better place.
2) if there were any legal actions I could take for temporary separation, temporary limited protection orders, psychiatric evaluations, and interventions such as dv batterers classes or parenting classes, or something, I would jump on it.
3) we have so so much to lose, our beautiful home and our way of life, with me able to make our house a home with amazing food and meals, etc,
4) and S5 deserves so much better than losing his family, yet deserves to not live in such emotional stress. I am concerned it is etching away at his childhood.

I read Roland’s long thread and the promise of change, a glimmer of hope and the onward uphill battle... .I have fought that battle for years, and would continue if I could.
The difference in our marriage is the friends pouring into my husband. When there are lots of conversations with his 2 evil buddies, our marriage goes down the tubes, and when my husband gets to spend time at church, or visits with one of those men, there seems to be improvement and hope.

We had moved away from his hometown with the evil buddies, and their influence has been limited. But now that their lives have fallen apart, that they’ve coercively controlled and divorced their wives, it’s as if they want my husband to do the same thing... .misery loves company.

I asked my husband, before we came back here from my parents, if he would consider a temporary moratorium on conversations with divorced friends. He got angry and refused. But he knows I’m right.

I suppose, it’s less painful for him to join with them, than to face his own personal issues?

I look around my house, and the life I made here and wonder, is there ANY chance at all of saving this, healing it, improving it in any way?

The sinking sadness in my chest says, likely not. But my faith always believes God can do anything. On the other hand, knowledge of personality disorders, what his likely is, and the etiology of it in his life, gives dismal likelihood. I’m sad, and I think it’s time to give myself permission to grieve a little.

Dig

[worriedStepmom]

One of my friends is divorced from a man with diagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Her 10-year-old son deliberately recorded conversations with his dad (of dad saying awful things about mom and admitting to violating the temporary orders) and gave it to his mom without her asking for them.  Her lawyer refused to listen to them - she said that in our state, at least, where recordings are legal with one party's consent, judges will not only throw all of that out but could sanction her for having them.

Your lawyer would need to give you an idea of whether you recording your H and your son would be useful or get you in more trouble.

I think you really need to get counseling for yourself.  It is hard to end a marriage and let go of your dreams of a family for your child... .but if you are this terrified of your husband, then you need to stop those thoughts of him being healed or improvements to your marriage immediately.  He is making his own choices - his friends are not making those for him.

[Dignity&Strength]

Thanks, worried stepmom,
My last post was more of a last look around, allowing myself permission to grieve a little, with gentleness, for that is a part of healthy process. Counseling isn’t truly about the prevention of uncomfortable emotions, but rather expanding one’s capacity to allow hard emotions to flow through, passing, with intentional notice, and accepting what is.
This board had been a wealth of knowledge as I’ve focused almost solely on extrapolateing us from this danger for a long while now. Since I do feel safe in this space, with those I chat with here, who have walked this path before me, I felt completely safe to have a reflective moment here before pressing on with the exit. Finding the exit safely, with all the pieces in place is not an instantaneous moment, but rather a tedious process.

Thanks for the heads up about the recordings. One of the impossible barriers I’ve faced has been lack of an attorney willing to take on the mountain of tedious evidence I have collected, or the covert dangerous nature of my abuser’s character.

I have one on retainer, just in case, although I am not sure she is the right one, for her opinion was that I needed to maneuver more, and a little longer. The danger did not raise alarms with her. So I am still searching for one who will get it.

Dig

[ForeverDad]

So forever dad, the cps allegations were disproven by the recording you had?

My reasoning was, Why would son say "Daddy, look at my bruise" if I was the one attacking?  He clearly had no trauma about what had caused it, he could only guess how he had gotten it.  However, the investigators said they had already interviewed my son at school and were going to close the case.  I wanted them to know her allegation was not an innocent mistake, it was purposeful.

I agree with WorriedStepmom, I would not enlist son in recording.  While I did record in the presence of my son, and sometimes he noticed I was recording, I never enlisted him in doing it.  (I also knew he probably couldn't keep secrets from her.)

That I didn't experience legal push back for recording doesn't mean a court somewhere wouldn't have had concerns.  I've been here for over a decade and I can't even count all the fingers on one hand where courts stepped in and demanded the member parent to stop recording the children.  I don't recall anyone getting jail for it.  (I did have concerns that school was not as Neutral Ground as the investigators thought, at the time she was the one always transporting him to and from school, so he could have felt influenced that it was her school.)

I maintained the perspective that my recording was "protecting myself" so I could later prove I wasn't the aggressive, over-the-top person.  She had a reputation for making allegations and I felt I needed 'insurance' to protect myself.  As our member David describes it so well, paraphrased, "Court told me not to record my ex and so instead I record myself to prove I'm not doing anything wrong, if she intrudes in my recording then that's her problem."

[livednlearned]

My L gave me the same advice your L gave you, D&S.

She was going through a high conflict divorce with another family law attorney (!) who had a PD. Talk about walking in my shoes.

And yet her advice to me was similar to what your L said, to keep maneuvering and stay longer (to pass the 10 year mark). It was purgatory to hear that, but I did what you are doing, neatening all the loose ends on my multiple safety plans and biding time. It was clear to me when it was time to go.

Also, this is tough business. I remember when I thought ex was going to kill himself and my son, and posted that crisis here. ForeverDad made the comment that this would work legally in my favor, and he was right. It was the worst night of my life and it was the best thing legally. He gifted me the evidence my L needed to get me what was best for S17.

Your L is a hired hand so if she's giving you advice to maneuver and stay longer, it's because she's focusing on the best legal outcome for you. Ask her what she needs in order to get you the outcome you're asking for. Organizing your evidence is helpful, but that's to get you organized. What kind of evidence does she want or need? If you don't have it, then you generate other sources of evidence, like a custody evaluation or a deposition.

My ex's L asked for the deposition. It's not stated this way, but it's essentially a way to see how both parties will perform in case things get litigated in front of a judge. The opposing L realized I was a credible witness and very organized. My L brought in binders of emails and ex brought in a manila folder with our son's medical records. Who knows why. Importantly, ex talked himself in circles, making it easy for my L to cross-examine him if it came to that, to undermine his credibility. He couldn't get anything straight -- he's a former trial attorney who had done hundreds of depositions. Being on the opposite side of the table was not the same thing, and he got turned around and his L decided he better get ex to settle because trial would be a disaster.

Point being that a deposition is a tool your L can ask for. Both of you would be deposed. In my case, we were in the same room together. A transcriber is hired to record the conversation and then you get a transcript when it's over. Attorneys will go through the transcript later and try to find ways to trip up the opposing party.

The transcript includes a word count of every word you use. I used the word "confusing" and "confused" and opposing L picked up on that. He began to characterize me as being confused, as though I didn't know what I was thinking or experiencing. Once I realized where he was getting that word, and how he was using the transcript, I changed how I characterized the way I spoke about ex. I found it confusing that ex acted euphoric and happy for two hours and then became enraged and abusive over small things, like our elementary aged child standing on an herb in the garden.

[Radcliff]

Dig, I agree with the others not to enlist your son in any recording.  As a parent, our highest responsibility is not to draw our child into the fray.  This is expected of us by courts and evaluators.  It could look bad for you if you did this.  As for planting a recording device in the house, I will leave that to you and your lawyer to discuss.

You asked what professionals will think about the fact that you got a psych eval.  Maybe they will never know.  You're doing a ton of preparation, that's good, but only a fraction of what you've got will see the light of day.  The "system" will only be able to digest the relevant stuff.  Furthermore, it's not in your best interest to let folks know how much you have.  You're an outlier for how much documenting you're doing.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but others don't get it.  They may think you're having to work too hard to prove something, so maybe it's not true.  Think about a professional photographer who takes hundreds or thousands of photographs to get those few brilliant shots.  When we see them in the gallery, we think every picture they take is like that!  Let folks see the gems that end up being the most useful, and let them think you're brilliant and only have gems.  Back to the psych eval, tell them that your husband was threatening and controlling, kept telling you that you were crazy, and one of your worst fears was not being believed, so you got a psych eval to prove to yourself and others that you're OK.  In other words, tell the truth.  Sometimes it works!

Finally, I am so, so sorry that your husband is saying those things to your son.  But I am equally impressed with his courage and resiliency.  The fact that he told you, to check reality and see if the bad things were true, and the fact that he was able to describe his feelings, those are huge protective factors.  Keep nurturing that!  With respect to the things that were said, journal the exact quotes and dates that he says them.  I've mentioned this before, but one of the most powerful documents I have is a four single-spaced page document with all the horrible quotes I wrote down from my wife in 15 months.  Yes, you could have made things up, but your credibility is a package.  If you come across as balanced and credible, people are likely to believe you.  A document composed exclusively of the things your son says your husband said would be useful. 

WW

[ForeverDad]

You asked what professionals will think about the fact that you got a psych eval.  Maybe they will never know.  You're doing a ton of preparation, that's good, but only a fraction of what you've got will see the light of day.  The "system" will only be able to digest the relevant stuff.  Furthermore, it's not in your best interest to let folks know how much you have.

I agree.  When you're trying to have a marriage or relationship succeed, you do share information.  However, if the relationship is failing and you decide it can't be restored, then you be very, very careful what information you share.

As a parent, you should continue sharing normal parenting information, that's obvious.  Everything else must be weighed in the balance, could sharing it harm you, your child, your parenting, your options?  Then don't share, or share it only when the time is appropriate.  As WW wrote, a lot will never ever see the light of day.  And that's okay.  For example, sharing information about rent, mortgage, utility bills, etc would be okay.  However, if you feel something is confidential or not the time to share, then don't let your spouse guilt you into divulging it.  Remember the FOG often used to sabotage us... .Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

IMO, as peer support only, I don't see anything negative about you getting a private psych eval.  I recall mine said I had some level of anxiety.  (My ex was ordered to take one too but her results, if she even went, were never shared as ordered.)  We had just separated and there was already high conflict and allegations.

[Radcliff]

A couple more things:

* You gave me credit for an idea of LnL's.  I need to shift the credit so I can sleep tonight ;)

* You expressed concern about false allegations.  There are lots of things that our pwBPD may threaten us with, or embarrass us with that feel very scary especially when we're isolated, but will just evaporate when they hit the court system.  Just as your extraneous evidence can water down your case and weaken it, so can his.  For something like the therapists you are no longer with, try your best, as difficult as it may be, to practice calm confidence.  One had her license revoked and the other one was uncomfortable with you nursing your baby during sessions.  State it very simply.  If you're replying to that allegation, the reply should be super short, which projects confidence.  People leave therapists all the time for no good reason.  Those are two good ones!  No sweat ;)

WW

[livednlearned]

There are lots of things that our pwBPD may threaten us with, or embarrass us with that feel very scary especially when we're isolated, but will just evaporate when they hit the court system.

This is so true!

Right now, you're kind of negotiating with yourself because you don't have a lot of input from your lawyer, or from his lawyer.

Things are a bit blurry and one-sided.

We are peers sharing our collective experience, but nothing compares to what a lawyer will tell you about how things work in your state, your county, and with your judge.

The claim and counterclaim is usually pretty awful, even in low-conflict divorces. I couldn't breathe when I saw what my ex wrote. My L simply said, "Judges don't read that stuff. Everyone knows people are hurt at this stage of the divorce. And hurt people say all kinds of things."

If you don't have the right kind of evidence needed to propose a reasonable solution, and if your lawyer does not propose a good strategy with smart tactics and some hoops for your ex to jump through, the judge will probably kick the stone down the road while applying some kind of stopgap formula to your situation. The purpose of that formula will be threefold: 1) cover their own @ss; 2) keep you from being a repeat customer in their courtroom; and 3) err on the side of stabilizing things for S5.

And then, like many of us, you will slowly start to chip away at whatever formula ruling served until you have the right kind of evidence to change it, usually with some kind of motion to modify.

You still have a lot of information from the lawyer to come your way before the strategy starts to take shape.

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, everyone for such helpful and thoughtful posts. What a blessing this is for me. I am at my Inlaws a few hours away, taking care of seasonal things, like fall haircuts and next size up clothes for S5.

I find myself reading and re reading all the posts, making to do lists in my phone, along with notes. I want to write more specific responses the next chance I get to a stopping place with a break. It’s fall haircut time at the moment, doing something for myself that I don’t get to do often. Yay.

Dig

[ForeverDad]

Right now, you're kind of negotiating with yourself because you don't have a lot of input from your lawyer, or from his lawyer.

Excellent observation.  We Nice Guys and Nice Gals are desperate to resolve problems, it's virtually in our genes.  There are some problems that just won't get resolved, at least not now or soon.  That's where boundaries and overall awareness come in.  Set yourself a boundary that when you state something that you will let it stand.  If the other parent doesn't respond, you shouldn't have to make a counter offer to your own statement or offer.

That principle will serve you well, especially when dealing with legal matters if/when court action occurs.  For example, court almost always requires mediation as an early step in divorce cases.  Fine, with reasonably normal people that generally works, if not in every detail then mostly.  With our sort of high conflict cases, however, not so much.  Typically the disordered parent is too entitled or unreasonable to agree to reasonable terms that early in a case.  Later perhaps, such as just before a major hearing or trial where ex may not look so good as ex felt at first.  Therefore, you must prepare yourself that early mediation attempts generally fail for us.  So you can't go into mediation thinking it must succeed even if you sacrifice too much.  That's right, it's just fine to state, once you see negotiations too one-sided or going nowhere, "Mediator, the mediation process isn't working, as I'm sure you have noticed.  I have tried but I see no way for it to succeed at this time.  It's time to go back to court and report it failed and then get on with the case."

[Dignity&Strength]

Thanks Forever Dad, for the heads up about how mediation goes.  That is good strategy to know ahead of time.  It is so true, that I do not know enough from my attorney yet.  There is no strategy in place, only to hang on. 

Those are good boundaries, to state reasonableness, and to be prepared not to succumb to the FOG, to try to get mediation to work. 

I'm sure this is typical, but my uBPDh does NOT deal well with clearly stated boundaries.  He views himself as an entitled male, and casts 'hysteria' onto me as a female.  It's a regional, family pattern thing I think. 

I am wondering, if in mediation, his entitlement and anger over my stating boundaries will come out in the open.  He has stated to me before, "no matter who you tell how I treat you here, no one will believe you, because I can control my emotions in public and you can't".  That sent shivers up my spine.  My uBPDh is more than likely, more than borderline.  This behavior is anti-social.  Covert, dangerous, cold, calculating sociopathy.  And according to his statements, he is aware of his physical ability to remain unemotional, with no physical symptoms of emotional flooding.  There are some narcissistic/borderline unreasonable off kilter emotional/thinking behaviors, but that is secondary comorbidity I believe.  Sociopathy often presents with narcissistic traits.  This is scary stuff to me. 

Thanks for the strategy.  I am not getting any from my attorney, and do not know how to go about getting to that point with her, without paying her thousands more, or irritating her.  We've only had an hour-long meeting, and she agreed to take my case.  I need her NOT to back out.  I feel like calling to ask for a strategy/planning appointment may scare her off?

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Thanks, LNL,

The claim and counterclaim is usually pretty awful, even in low-conflict divorces. I couldn't breathe when I saw what my ex wrote. My L simply said, "Judges don't read that stuff. Everyone knows people are hurt at this stage of the divorce. And hurt people say all kinds of things."

I think this is right on the money.  I think when I discovered his "claim" items in the safe, my heart fell out of my chest.  Ugh.  It was awful. 

You're so right, I do not have the input I need from my lawyer.  I feel strongly, if I call her and ask for a strategy meeting, to find out what evidence she'll need, etc., like you mentioned, that I could scare her off.  I have lost the attorney I really wanted, when I started sharing my evidence with his assistant, as he asked me to.  So I need to be careful. 

At the moment, I can think of, or reason with myself, what evidence I am missing.  That will help.  I found the actual protection from abuse document form online.  I can sort of see what items she may need to keep s5 and I both safe.  But you are right, I need to know from her.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

WW,

Thank you, so much for the input.  I do talk more than I should, thinking that explaining more will do the trick.  You're idea to state things simply and concisely about the claim items, like the therapists is brilliant.  I will do that.

Also, your document with a list of things s5 says daddy says to him, I will do that.  I retrieved my terabyte drive from 2017 from the storage unit fire box.  I will search for the recordings I have of s5 telling me what daddy says, and try to construct that document with a little more accuracy from that.  Not that the recordings of s5 talking ever need to see the light of day... .I get that.  My recorder is a flash drive, with a small loop just big enough for a tiny safety pin.  It's pinned in my bra strap, out of sight, so s5 doesn't know I was recording him, but still... .I see how that detail could get lost and a helper could assume s5 was recruited into helping me.

I agree, I do not need to recruit s5 into any of the recording business.  He has gotten to an age where his daddy is king to him, even if he realizes his daddy is mean to me, and knows that behavior is wrong.  I can not alienate him, or count on him with 'safety' things, as we have called them.  He knows of "the errand place" (the storage unit), and "mommy's proof"  (the flash drive).  He can feel it when he sits in my lap in the living room.  He had to know not to ask about "what's that" like he would something in grandpa's shirt pocket. 

I think the psych eval explanation is good.  It may never come up.  I wonder, if his issues would ever truly surface in a psych eval for him?
I see complete lack of remorse and empathy, for anyone, and a clever, consistent social 'mask' of shy politeness: antisocial w/narcissistic traits, covert; eating disorder nos; dyphasia (like Eyore from Winnie the Pooh).  The lying.  The ability to keep extremely calm.  It's scary.
Like Forever Dad said, his ex never did produce hers.

Dig.

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Thanks for the updates.  I'd advise you not to take your son to the "errand place" again.  Can you manage that?  I know it might not be easy.  Or possible.  I'm concerned about him blowing your cover to your husband, given what you've said.  "Mommy's proof" is worrisome, too.  Is that something he's sensed recently?  Can you move it to a place where it's not detectable to him?

With respect to your lawyer, I know you're in a tight spot.  You need a ninja lawyer, and you're in a rural place where they don't exactly grow on trees.  With respect to evidence, perhaps with this one take the tack of asking her what she needs.  Learn from her enough to know what she considers to be "gems," and then provide her with a couple.  She'll love you for the gems; the stack of unfiltered evidence will scare the heck out of her (especially if she's a solo operator; a large firm would be happy to charge an associate's time to wade through the stuff).

Just today I was completely freaking out about something having to do with my case.  I wanted to e-mail my lawyer.  But yesterday we had a couple of e-mail exchanges, and I'm trying to moderate my message traffic to her.  I'm going to wait at least a day on this issue.  Tomorrow night, I'll figure out if it's time critical for me to e-mail her, or if I can let it ride another couple of days.  So, I'm trying to insulate her from my anxiety, but I'm also keeping track of whether she is meeting my needs.  If I really need something, I ask for it, and she delivers.  She does not always give me what I want, but has always given me what I needed.

What I'm saying is to work to manage your traits that could wear a lawyer out, but don't be timid or not get what you need.  She gets paid by the hour.  If you are respectful about the need to schedule in advance and her need to serve her other clients, she should be happy to meet with you.  If she's a bad fit, better to know it now, as hard as that new may be, than to find it out later.  Another way to put it is that early in my case, I had several short meetings strung out over time with my lawyer.  We got to know each other and built trust.  If it wasn't working, there was time to switch.  A few meetings with her can actually be important to building and evaluating the relationship.  One thought would be to look at your budget and talk to her.  How about scheduling a one hour meeting every three weeks?  Or every month?  Neither of you will be stressed about it because you'll hit a rhythm.  I think it would be money and time well spent.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
Just a quick update, things have gotten worse in a hurry.

1)Things S5 has said in the past day, I simply cannot share. I am almost positive my husband coached him to say those things to set me up with whatever reaction he thought I’d have
2)my husband staying that a pastor of a church we have been loosely visiting wants to ‘meet with him’,
3) my friends at the post office saying my husband was in there recently, has a PO Box himself, and has a very good mask... .quiet, shy, polite, reserved.
Ugh.
It’s nauseating.
I am moving forward, brainstorming the next right thing to do, a lot of my list comes from everyone’s suggestions here.
I’ll update again soon.
Dig