SD12 wants to come over more

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Six years ago we were at then-SD6 telling DH that he wasn't her family.

Four years ago, Mom "couldn't force" SD10 to go with DH and berated DH for "not listening to SD10's voice" about not wanting to go.

For the last few weeks-to-month, SD12 has been telling DH and I that she doesn't want to leave at the end of her time with us. At first she explained it as "the transition is hard". Then it was "I really want to spend more time with you". A couple of weeks ago she brought up that it's "messy" at Mom's house -- that everyone bickers when they have to clean, that she feels more calm when things are orderly. A big move away from defending Mom at all costs.

DH & I have mostly kept it as "we love spending time with you too"; DH has emphasized to both kids that they can always come over, and we've told SD12 that we hear what she's saying about wanting to spend more time with us, and that DH and Mom will try to work something out.

This past weekend was Mom's weekend with them, but apparently Mom was out of town (?). The kids are with us every Friday. At the end of Friday night, right when Stepdad was pulling up, SD12 said something like "Mom said it was OK if I spent the night here tonight". So of course we said Sure.

Even a couple of years ago this would be like a unicorn running up to you with the winning Powerball ticket in its mouth. Yeah, right!

DH had already made plans for doing something out of town Saturday, but we had a nice time with just us and SD12 that evening and morning (SD10 saw that SD12 was staying, but went with Stepdad, which was maybe good for her -- she's usually a follower of SD12. We'll see where that goes). DH took off Saturday morning, so I told SD12 that I'd pick a time to drop her off at Mom's and she could let me know what she thought of it. I picked an afternoon time before dinner and she said Sure. I think I could have pushed it out later and she would have said Sure.

I checked in with her midday: "So how did it go trying something new and spending the night here without SD10?" She said it was fine, she couldn't fall asleep right away, but it was fine. That's about all I got, so I didn't push it.

So... .seems like we are at kind of a sensitive stage.

My instinct right now is not to push her to talk about "so why do you not want to be at Mom's". It seems like just being with us instead of at Mom's says a lot. Maybe she's not ready to talk about it? She does open up about other stuff, so it's not like she's always a clam.

Anyone else been in this gradual transition zone? I guess I always picture the "I want to live with Dad" stories as pretty sudden. How did you support the kids/stepkids?

DH is feeling anxious right now, too, coming off of setting up the whole summertime schedule with Mom and her following up with "I'm afraid you might abuse the kids" 

He emailed her last night saying that SD12 had expressed wanting to spend more time here, and that they should figure something out. He's suspecting that she'll deflect responsibility onto the girls: "They're old enough to decide where they want to spend time" etc. So that she doesn't have to support them spending more time with DH. My guess is that Mom unconsciously senses that the kids won't directly tell her "I want to be with DH more", so then Mom is off the hook: "Well, they've never expressed anything like that to ME, and we should listen to their voices".

DH is anxious about pushing back. He's experiencing interactions with Mom and Stepdad as pretty icy right now -- not openly hostile, but not cooperative. He's thinking Mom will drag her feet and defer responsibility. I've tried encouraging him that at least this time we have a PP and its purpose is what to revert to if the parents can't agree on a change. But maybe I'm JADE-ing DH, sigh... .

Thoughts?

[kells76]

Six years ago we were at then-SD6 telling DH that he wasn't her family.

Four years ago, Mom "couldn't force" SD10 to go with DH and berated DH for "not listening to SD10's voice" about not wanting to go.

For the last few weeks-to-month, SD12 has been telling DH and I that she doesn't want to leave at the end of her time with us. At first she explained it as "the transition is hard". Then it was "I really want to spend more time with you". A couple of weeks ago she brought up that it's "messy" at Mom's house -- that everyone bickers when they have to clean, that she feels more calm when things are orderly. A big move away from defending Mom at all costs.

DH & I have mostly kept it as "we love spending time with you too"; DH has emphasized to both kids that they can always come over, and we've told SD12 that we hear what she's saying about wanting to spend more time with us, and that DH and Mom will try to work something out.

This past weekend was Mom's weekend with them, but apparently Mom was out of town (?). The kids are with us every Friday. At the end of Friday night, right when Stepdad was pulling up, SD12 said something like "Mom said it was OK if I spent the night here tonight". So of course we said Sure.

Even a couple of years ago this would be like a unicorn running up to you with the winning Powerball ticket in its mouth. Yeah, right!

DH had already made plans for doing something out of town Saturday, but we had a nice time with just us and SD12 that evening and morning (SD10 saw that SD12 was staying, but went with Stepdad, which was maybe good for her -- she's usually a follower of SD12. We'll see where that goes). DH took off Saturday morning, so I told SD12 that I'd pick a time to drop her off at Mom's and she could let me know what she thought of it. I picked an afternoon time before dinner and she said Sure. I think I could have pushed it out later and she would have said Sure.

I checked in with her midday: "So how did it go trying something new and spending the night here without SD10?" She said it was fine, she couldn't fall asleep right away, but it was fine. That's about all I got, so I didn't push it.

So... .seems like we are at kind of a sensitive stage.

My instinct right now is not to push her to talk about "so why do you not want to be at Mom's". It seems like just being with us instead of at Mom's says a lot. Maybe she's not ready to talk about it? She does open up about other stuff, so it's not like she's always a clam.

Anyone else been in this gradual transition zone? I guess I always picture the "I want to live with Dad" stories as pretty sudden. How did you support the kids/stepkids?

DH is feeling anxious right now, too, coming off of setting up the whole summertime schedule with Mom and her following up with "I'm afraid you might abuse the kids" 

He emailed her last night saying that SD12 had expressed wanting to spend more time here, and that they should figure something out. He's suspecting that she'll deflect responsibility onto the girls: "They're old enough to decide where they want to spend time" etc. So that she doesn't have to support them spending more time with DH. My guess is that Mom unconsciously senses that the kids won't directly tell her "I want to be with DH more", so then Mom is off the hook: "Well, they've never expressed anything like that to ME, and we should listen to their voices".

DH is anxious about pushing back. He's experiencing interactions with Mom and Stepdad as pretty icy right now -- not openly hostile, but not cooperative. He's thinking Mom will drag her feet and defer responsibility. I've tried encouraging him that at least this time we have a PP and its purpose is what to revert to if the parents can't agree on a change. But maybe I'm JADE-ing DH, sigh... .

Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

Wow, that's some big steps for SD12 to take (and SD10).

Could her desire to be with you be face value? Your home is calm and organized. Mom's is messy and people bicker.

I also totally understand wanting to know why now.

You may never know.

The girls may not understand it themselves.

I would trust your instinct on not asking anything. Especially if there is a ball rolling toward a change in where SD12 spends time. I have found there is a boatload of precious trust if you don't pry. My SDs come to me with stuff. If I ask a question, it's one sentence with little follow-up, nothing more than validation. If they feel safe, they talk. If they don't, we move on. I figure I'm in it for the long-haul and they get interrogated by their mom and put in the middle constantly. I don't want to be associated with that ongoing wound.

Also, there is a lot to be said for sticking to the parenting plan. Even without BPD I would have a hard time hearing my 12 year old say Nah, I'm liking dad's house better. It's a lot of hurt to work through, especially if it's her first kid hitting puberty.

You've done an amazing job creating space for SD12 to express how she feels. Making changes in custody will change the stability in some way, it's all but inevitable. Either for her or for SD10.

My two cents. I have older step daughters, so I'm a bit out of my league here.

[kells76]

Could her desire to be with you be face value?

For a bit I wondered if she was just telling DH what he wanted to hear (you know, and telling Mom at Mom's house "I want to be here"). Now that she's acting on it, I think it is face value.

We did talk a little bit (when she brought up the "it's messy and people bicker" statement) that it sounds like she's a person who likes things to be orderly, and how people have different tolerance levels for order and disorder, and people notice messes and whatnot differently. She's the kind of kid who will orient a square box on her dresser to match the square corner. I can relate 

I'm not necessarily worried about overt danger at Mom's. I don't think anyone is getting hit, or screamed at, or physically abused. There's some subtle stuff that I've wondered about (laundry doesn't get done, didn't have food for school lunch, Mom didn't follow through on promise). And of course the weird emotional dynamics with Stepdad.

So I guess I'm hoping that even if the kids did tell us now what's going on, that we wouldn't be surprised. There's always that fear deep down that something really awful has gone on and the kids were never able to tell us.

Yup, SD12 is Mom's and DH's oldest, so this will be new to Mom. The rubber is about to meet the road for her -- all those years of telling DH that he needed to "listen to the kids' voices" and now SD12 is saying "I want to be at Dad's". We'll see how Mom does. Her counselor has retired, so it's just the kids' counselor left that Mom will listen to.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm not necessarily worried about overt danger at Mom's. I don't think anyone is getting hit, or screamed at, or physically abused. There's some subtle stuff that I've wondered about (laundry doesn't get done, didn't have food for school lunch, Mom didn't follow through on promise). And of course the weird emotional dynamics with Stepdad.

So I guess I'm hoping that even if the kids did tell us now what's going on, that we wouldn't be surprised. There's always that fear deep down that something really awful has gone on and the kids were never able to tell us.

Yup, SD12 is Mom's and DH's oldest, so this will be new to Mom. The rubber is about to meet the road for her -- all those years of telling DH that he needed to "listen to the kids' voices" and now SD12 is saying "I want to be at Dad's". We'll see how Mom does. Her counselor has retired, so it's just the kids' counselor left that Mom will listen to.

Way to go to SD12 for speaking up for what she wants, and great for SD10 for choosing her own path this weekend too!

Our transition was more sudden (complete reversal so we now have primary custody), but I suspect that over the next 7 years there will be a gradual transition away from uBPDmom's house.  My SD11 very, very rarely talks about her uBPDmom to us.  (I know there lots of threats of "if you tell people X, CPS will come and I'll never see you again.")

However, uBPDmom pretty consistently tells both H and SD everything she's thinking/feeling when she's dysregulated, so we usually have a good idea of what's going on. We've learned that we need to sit down with her once a month or so and talk through the emotions triggered by uBPDmom's dysregulations.  She usually gives us more detail then. SD verbalized that she likes these conversations and feels better after, but it's hard for her to initiate them with us.  It might be worth having similar gentle conversations about specifics with mom with your SD to see if she will talk about other things that go on at her other house.

uBPDmom thinks our custody change is temporary; she is confident that SD will come back to live with her in a few years when SD is old enough to legally say what she wants.  She is already pressuring SD about this; SD is not able to tell her mom that she wants to live here - she needs us to be "the bad guy" to "force" the issue.  She's 11 - that is perfectly reasonable.

My only other real advice is to make sure she is seeing her therapist regularly.  I wouldn't be surprised if her mom pulls a lot of emotional manipulation to get her to change her mind back.

[ForeverDad]

It can vary from state to state but often legal custody is a matter separate from the parenting schedule.  For example, for a few years after the divorce I had Shared Parenting with equal time.  It of course didn't work, so I filed for Change of Circumstances and 1.5 years later I did get full custody (Legal Guardian) but the GAL recommended ex keep equal time so she could still get child support.  That of course didn't work either and so I went back for majority time that was denied previously.

My thought is, if DH is willing to let mother keep full custody for now, he could file only for more time.  How about equal time?  It probably wouldn't reduce CS by much but the children could have more time with dad.  The typical schedule is 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5).  That worked pretty good for me.  Ex had Mon-Tue overnights, I had Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  Our custody evaluator is a child psychologist and recommended it, especially for younger children.  Since the kids are getting older, the court might consider what they want.  That is, if they can manage not to be pressured by a parent.

[kells76]

legal custody is a matter separate from the parenting schedule

Yes, as far as I understand, we're in a state where (a) there's no difference between legal & physical (i.e. school address) custody, and (b) neither type of custody equals parenting time.

As long as there's a paper or email trail supporting DH, I don't think he'll file in court -- not yet. He emailed Mom the other night, and she hasn't written back yet. My guess is Mom wants each instance to be a one-off. Equal time would be amazing.

I've let go of any hope of adjustment to CS ever. I'm just assuming it'll stay the same until SD10 is 18. Mom would have to be pretty brassy to ask for an increase, as DH is already paying over guideline. Mom and Stepdad came kind of unhinged when last faced with legal stuff, so for the kids' sake it might be better not to go there.

I think there was another dad on here recently (redpill, maybe?) in a similar situation. If the ultimate good for the kids is to be away from Mom, and if she'll flip and stress out the kids if Dad pushes legalizing the setup, then maybe keeping CS the same is just the cost of the kids' well-being.

[kells76]

So Mom wrote back to DH. Adding 2 overnights/month for SD12! Considering where we're coming from, and how long and slow this process has been, and that DH really started from the down position, this is good.

Still keeping the door open for the kids to come over more. Wouldn't be surprised if SD10 sees this and wants to try it too. Will keep you guys posted... .

[livednlearned]

 

My jaw dropped!

It's so nice to hear a reasonable request met with a reasonable response.

I sometimes forget that can happen.

It's a good lesson for SD12, too. She said how she felt and adults helped her.

[kells76]

I sometimes forget that can happen.

Me too... .maybe it's just my personality, but my MO is usually "every silver lining has a dark cloud above it"

[livednlearned]

my MO is usually "every silver lining has a dark cloud above it"

 

And actions speak volumes.

I hope for SD12 and everyone involved that those two extra days materialize without incident