Family finances; healthy management or unhealthy control | Part 2

[formflier]

Continuation from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329095.0
Worthy of a separate post... .

 I pray regularly for wisdom and healing and various other things.

I don't see any Biblical justification for "only prayer".  Yes... there are certain times that God commanded people to do some odd things, but those were specific instances to highlight his power and that it was Him... not the people that accomplished things.

IMO.

FF

[formflier]

  A spouse is not an employee or a child.

True... .but what do I (and we) do when they choose to behave like one?

FF

[juju2]

Nothing.

Its a spiritual issue.   She is God's child.

[juju2]

Take what you like (the good) and leave the rest (bad)

You are not her Higher Power.

You are only responsible for your will and your life.
Getting in to someone else's business, for me, is chaos making.

Judgement is the Lord's.
His judgement is exceedingly fine.

[Notwendy]

She may act like one at times, but she isn't a child. She holds a job and is responsible for taking care of the children. And you are having sex with her. If she was a child, she would not be doing any of these things.

Again, I am not advocating complete access to all of the money, legally though as your spouse, she may share ownership of it with you. What I ( and I think others are advocating for ) is a situation where she is not beholden to you for the basic things a family needs- gas, groceries. If she is driving a van with the children in it, and you can afford it, don't hold gas money contingent on how she speaks to you. The car has to run to get your family where they need to go.

I am not discussing giving her a pot of money to fill her closet with designer clothes. I don't think she's asked for that kind of thing. Her weak spot seems to be giving money to her family. You don't have to give her money for that. But you could discuss her reasons for wanting to do that with her. Maybe she sees this differently than you do. That's OK, but perhaps there is some way to come up with some agreement that fits  both your values.

[formflier]

 Her weak spot seems to be giving money to her family.

So... .we 100% agree.

How do I give her access to money for her basic needs and then what happens... what specifically do I do, when she abrogates whatever agreement there is about money... and hands it over to her family.  Where the money is (has been) used to enable bad behavior on a scale that makes my wife's stuff look like she is a kindergartner trying to "graduate" from the school of BPD.

My wife is "fine" with managing money while "not emotionally affected".  She regularly leaves money in the account.  It's one of the "tells" I use to gauge her emotional state.

We have had 100% clear agreements that "never again" will she give money to her family unless we are both onboard ahead of time.  This has been done in and out of counseling... .with and without "accountability partners".

In the end... I am the one facing accountability and responsibility of dealing with an empty account.  Looking back... I realize I did this way too many times.

She needs $150, I'll usually put in more.  There is a note in the transfer about purpose for record keeping and I'll usually send over more, perhaps I round it to $200.

When she says she needs $150... .spends $135 and seems pleasant, I "know" that I'm dealing with my truly reasonable wife.  Lots of "tells" match.

When she spends everything she can get her hands on... .it's a bit of a tell that the flames may be rising.

My wife is the queen of "poof".  It's been proven time and time again.  She really has the best of intentions... .but when emotions get going... .she caves... account emptied.

FF

[Fian]

"I don't see how I stop this without "validating the invalid"... .that there are not consequences for bad behavior."

I think that is the crux of the issue for you.  By giving up the lever, you view it as you being helpless to stop the bad behavior.  My response to this is:
1.  Stop trying to control her behavior.
2.  There are still consequences.  You will talk with her about bad behavior, which she won't like.
3.  This is exactly where prayer is needed.  Let God be the one to work on her.

"Yet I can't force my wife to talk to me.  Door is open... ."

This is a passive approach to communication.  You need to be the one to walk through the door.  While you can't force her to talk to you, if you are insistent enough, eventually you will be heard.

" I pray regularly for wisdom and healing and various other things.

I don't see any Biblical justification for "only prayer".  Yes... there are certain times that God commanded people to do some odd things, but those were specific instances to highlight his power and that it was Him... not the people that accomplished things."

If you aren't seeing God move in your marriage, then I would recommend to include fasting.  As for viewing prayer as you doing nothing, I addressed that in the other thread.  Prayer is active, not passive.

[formflier]

I
1.  Stop trying to control her behavior.
 

How do I do this while still controlling my wallet?  How specifically.

My wallet... my responsibility (vice hers). 

I also control the behavior of everyone else that "wants in" to my wallet.

I'll get back to the other questions in a bit.

I suppose this goes to motivation.  I see my primary job to be a steward of that entrusted to me.  If a result of my stewardship is that others "feel controlled"... .that is what it is.

FF

[Fian]

You would handle it the same way.  If her request is reasonable, you give her the money.  If it isn't, you don't.  What we are saying is you don't tie the way she asks to whether she gets the money or not.

[formflier]

You said you've done just about all you can do to improve the marriage. I'm curious -- other than enforcing strict boundaries (which I'd hesitate to call an improvement strategy), what have you done?

This is excellent question... .

appropriate background.  

FF is guarded in what he is thinking and doing.
He talks allot but sometimes would not tell what was really happening or what he was
thinking.
Sinful expressions of anger and bitterness (clamming up, throwing things, threats,
profanity)
Focuses primarily on FFw's sin, outbursts.
Responds to FFw’s anger by withholding relationship.

This was me several years ago.  Comments from a prior counselor that I trust and that my current psychologist trusts as well.  She agrees these are areas of weakness for me that I need to focus on and that are under my control.

1.  I still "think through" if it is a good time to discuss an issue, but once I've determined that... I trust others to handle the news... .vice trying to "soft sell it".  

2.  Way too many words.  They all mattered very much to me, but I"m kinda an outlier.  My wife is a "broad brush" kinda person... I'm very much like my grandfather... .there are 10 steps to a project... the order matters and I'm prepared to discuss in detail.  I need to explain it how others need to hear it... .not how I think they need to hear it.  And then trust them to press forward without details... .that I think they need.

3.  Fairly self explanatory.  While in the past I wouldn't say "effe you" back the first time, I would stay engaged and get to the point where I was every bit as bad as my wife or someone else.  Now... .I'm very upfront... .I don't do conflict.  If you don't like it... .(fill in blank)

4  I used to regularly express shock at the trainwreck that was/is my wife' behavior.  (which has gotten way better... no doubt about it)  I used to "do things" because of her behavior.  Now I "do things" because they reflect my values... .or "work for me"  I used to react to others... .now others react to me.  I'll do my thing... they can do theirs.  If it matches up... .all the better.  

5.  (the big one)... .Witholding relationship.  I really wasn't a boundary driven person before.  I was "all in" or "all out".  To be clear, because of boundaries there are times where it is 100% appropriate to "withhold relationship" (as it specifically related to my values)  However... because I'm cussed over money shouldn't affect that I kindly speak to her as she gets in bed... .or offer to cuddle (sexually or nonsexually)... .or compliment her on her appearance... .or listen to her about all the nasty teachers she works with.

according to me... when she cusses me about money... it affects that narrow slice of our relationship.  That's my choice.  She may choose to "use" that to affect other parts... that's her choice.

Much more I could say, and hopefully will later.  

FF

[formflier]

You would handle it the same way.  If her request is reasonable, you give her the money.  If it isn't, you don't.  What we are saying is you don't tie the way she asks to whether she gets the money or not.

So... .extreme example for clarity.

"effe you FF... .you lazy blah blah... .I need gas money"

She gets gas money.

Is that really what you are proposing?  Making sure I'm not missing this.

FF

[Fian]

Yes, that is what I am proposing.  Address the language separately.

[Notwendy]

I think she will have to learn the way anyone else does but you need to be out of the way of this. If you are the natural enforcer it breeds the resentment between you.

Why don't we all go out and blow away all our money? Because then, it will be all gone and we won't have money for things we need.

One idea is to designate a certain amount- after needs are met, an amount you can live with if it gets blown away. It's for something she wants, not something she needs like food or gas. This is our vacation fund  or restaurant fund.  "Honey this is our account for the Christmas fund, or the vacation fund or whatever. She blow it? Sorry everyone get a pair of socks for Christmas, no vacation this year. Nobody will perish for that, but she will learn there is a consequence to blowing money.

You will need to let go of the control. It isn't only that she blows the money- its that you also disapprove of what she does with it, but that is your feeling, not hers. You are not just controlling your wallet, you are controlling the money going to her family. Yet, so long as you do this controlling you are in the way of the lesson of natural consequences.

With my mother- she never had limits on money. We compensated by doing without. Once Dad died, we feared she would go through her money too fast. But we had no control over that- it's all in her hands. What she does with some of it makes me cringe. I hate to see how much she misuses money. Then something happened- she said something like "once it is gone in the bank, it doesn't fill up again" then things like "wow this costs a lot"  and " I decided not to do this because it was too expensive".

I don't know how people learn otherwise if they don't figure it out before hand.

[formflier]

Yes, that is what I am proposing.  Address the language separately.

And would you propose this for "just money" or should it apply to all areas of a relationship.  Sex, food, date nights... .any of that.

To be clear... .I believe I'm being consistent.

I don't think "blah blah blah you nasty (blank)... .go get in bed it's time to have sex"  I don't think that should result in sex for anyone.

I don't think "blah blah blah... .you lazy (blank)... .give me money for gas" should result in anyone's wallet opening. (including mine)

I don't think "blah blah blah... .now is the time  we will (fill in blank) " should result in  whatever was being sought.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

FF

[Notwendy]

Don't bundle this. Focus on dealing with the finances.


Adding other things will complicate the thinking process.

[Fian]

I would tend to put sex in a separate category, but even then one errs on the side of having sex for Biblical reasons.

As for the rest, I guess you are asking if you are just a puppet of your wife, and with no ability to resist.  That is actually one of the concerns about Matthew 5.  To summarize, it says if someone strikes you in the left cheek, turn to him the right also.  If someone forces you to travel one mile with them, travel two miles.  If someone sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well.

I think the answer is complex, and I know that you prefer simple.  Unfortunately, real life isn't simple.  Anyway, the general rule is you take care of your side of the fence, regardless of whether your wife is handling hers.  You are a good steward of your family's money, ensuring that their needs are met.  You will tell your wife no, when she is making decisions that adversely affect your family's financial health.  When she threatens you for money, you respond, that wasn't necessary, all you had to do was ask.  If she starts to misuse her new found power and getting bossy or whatever, then you consider pushing back, based on what you view is better for the health of the marriage, not because she is aggravating you.

As for protecting yourself, you don't have to listen when she is using her words as a weapon.  Walking away, turning off cellphone are valid boundary actions.  In fact, if she says bad things and asks for money, you could say, "I am sending the money, but since you are saying such things, I am going to turn my phone off for the next few hours.  I would like to talk with you later about the words that you said and how hurtful they were."  You also know how to self-care when she is being aggravating.

As for changing her behavior, there is direct talking about the issue, and prayer.

[formflier]

Don't bundle this. Focus on dealing with the finances.


Adding other things will complicate the thinking process.

I think it simplifies things... .and helps avoid inconsistency.

And yes... .combining the issues of a couple of posts, I do like simple.  I actually "need" simpler now (at least I would argue this) because my abilities are so much less than they used to be.

I used to have the time, ability and energy to "be this" to this person and "be that" to another person and yet a third thing to someone else.

I don't have the ability to do that anymore.  Part of "recovery" or "living the best life I can" or "fullest" life that I can live is to figure out what works best for me and the time/abilities I have left.

And then do that. 

There is no doubt that this looks, feels and is very different than the FF of a few years ago and I almost don't even know the FF of 15 years ago.

Perhaps best simplified by a thought that I used to react/act to try to make everyone else happy and achieve a goal.  Now... .if a goal is worthwhile... .I'll be deliberate about doing it in such a way that I believe is moral and fits in my values, but I honestly don't "do things" with an intention of making people happy or sad.

  (I would think that is manipulative)  Ok... .yes... I'll still do flowers and a card and yes I intend that to "make" someone happy for a time.  So... perhaps better said that I don't do things "intentionally" to hurt people or "teach them a lesson".  I do my thing... .and if they "connect the dots" and learn a lesson... great... if not... .I press on.

Perhaps I'm starting to ramble... .not sure.


FF

[formflier]

As for the rest, I guess you are asking if you are just a puppet of your wife, and with no ability to resist.  That is actually one of the concerns about Matthew 5.  To summarize, it says if someone strikes you in the left cheek, turn to him the right also.  If someone forces you to travel one mile with them, travel two miles.  If someone sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well.

I think the answer is complex, and I know that you prefer simple.  Unfortunately, real life isn't simple.  

It's interesting how different people focus on different parts of the Bible.

How do you "turn the other cheek" yet also "protect your heart"?

If "all scripture" is equally valid (as long as you don't take it out of context)... .I don't see Matthew 5 as saying that you ALWAYS must turn the cheek.  Especially since Jesus didn't... .he was physically forceful when it was appropriate.

So... .there is a judgment call to be made in the "turning your cheek".  For me... .if it's a new issue that "comes out of nowhere"... .I'm a cheek turner.  If it's a repetitive an unrepentant pattern... .I'll go into "protect your heart mode".

I struggle to think of when I would "use a whip"... .but I suppose my choice to call CPS and stop spanking in my house would be up that alley.  My wife certainly expresses it that way.

I don't think this is a dichotomous choice.  Turn the cheek or not.  I focus much of my prayer on asking for wisdom to guide my actions and in "picking" the right scriptural viewpoint.

FF

[formflier]

   If someone sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well.
 

When Joseph was in Egypt... did he immediately hand over all the grain he has stored up to his family?

How did he go about his relationship with them?

Serious question... .

FF

[formflier]

 
Interesting split by the mods.

I like it and the question that has been rephrased in the title.

I hope we can all agree that there will be "control" issues around all sorts of topics in a relationship with a pwBPD. 

Furthermore... I'm the one here asking advice and it seems to crux of the question, and perhaps point of view matters here, is whether or not I'm trying to "control my wife" or if "I'm trying to control my wallet".

I can't argue that my wife is "being controlled" by this or perhaps from my point of view her "access" to the wallet is not as broad or discretionary as it was before.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Get her a gas credit card. No one should have to beg for gas money.

[formflier]

Get her a gas credit card. No one should have to beg for gas money.

Clarity... .she didn't "have to".

I'm not involved with how she decides when to spend "her" money or if she decides to ask me to to fund that from the income I bring to the family.

I've offered the conversation and she "wants everything back first"... .then she says she is willing to talk.

We've seen the Charlie Brown Lucy thing... .I don't kick that ball anymore.  I just don't.

She has literally said the words "Admit you are wrong first... ." as a precondition to discussion.

I'm open to many... many... .many ways to discuss this and have many... many solutions that I see as acceptable.

Any interpretation of her stance is there is "only one" solution that she will find acceptable. 

Let's not forget... .when this idea came up to "solve" her concerns that I tricked her into spending money to make her look bad... .she physically took a card and threw it at me... .and hit me with it.

And... .according to her... .it was my fault that she did that.

Since then... .I don't bring it up... .the times she brings it up there is rewriting of history.  Rather than argue with her... .I first ask if she wants to hear my view.  Usually it's met with silence, sometimes there is a verbal non answer (such as you should know)... .I don't believe she has outright said no.

I'm positive she has never said yes.  So... .I'll wait until she is ready to listen.

Circling back to the start... .she doesn't "have to beg".

I'm curious why should wouldn't get her own gas card.

FF

[Notwendy]

"Admit you are wrong first... ." as a precondition to discussion.



And yours is " apologize or treat me nice before you get money".

It seems the two of you are at a standoff. I don't know what direction this will take you.

I also don't know if an online Biblical discussion is going to be helpful. People have different interpretations of the Bible. Some statements are inconsistent. One statement I struggle with is honor your parents. How do you honor someone who is abusing you? I used to think it meant be a doormat, turn the other cheek but now I also think it means "honor the best in them". What my mother would like is for me to enable her, but that isn't in her best interest, and it isn't helping her to be her best person. Also with my H, when I enabled him to treat me poorly, I wasn't doing what was in his best interest. I think marriage asks us to also not enable our spouses to behave in less than their better selves.

With my mother, if she were to mismanage her finances and have nothing for food ( I hope not!), then "honor your parents" would mean I would not let her go hungry if I could help. She doesn't get to spend my kids' college funds on extravagant things, but if I could afford it, I would feel Biblically obligated to help with her basic needs.


How can you support the best in your wife? I get that you should not enable her to speak cruelly at you, but deal with that when it happens. "Honey, I know you are better than that". Separate that from money for gas. I can't quote it but I think there are some basic obligations in marriage.  There are circumstances where that obligation can't be met- perhaps abuse, adultery and other circumstances. Maybe this is it for you - I don't know but I still think basics, like food and gas should not be contingent on if she cusses at you or apologizes. She's using that money mostly for the family as a whole and the kids.

[formflier]

I essentially agree with most of what you say.  I later took the van out and filled it up by myself.

The fridge is full of food, mostly bought by me.

I 100% agree with your "stance" on your Mom, that you would make sure she was not hungry.

I would even extend that to my wife's FOO, assuming there was true need.

Interesting thought in how I can bring out the best in my wife.  I would initially argue that is what I'm doing.

Reinforcing good behavior... .ignoring bad behavior.  Perhaps not responding to bad behavior is better.

Circling back around.  My stance is a little more nuanced than "apologize or treat me nice before you get money"

She can get money without ever talking to me, should she choose.  I'm not trying to control that.

She has clarity on how to gain access to money that I steward.  I don't view it as "my" money, although legally it is.  The money I steward is an extension of my values, or said another way... .as a good steward of this money... I'm the one accountable for how the money is used and what those I've chosen to trust with that money chose to do with it.

I believe I can delegate the authority to spend the money, but I can't delegate the responsibility that the money is spent according to the values I believe go into the stewardship.

That view cuts across many areas of my life, delegating authority but not responsibility.  Since we are having  somewhat Biblical discussion, I don't see my wife misusing the money I steward as ONLY an issue between her and God.  I see that I would be more culpable and held to higher account than she would be (yes... very patriarchal view) .

How did things work out for Adam when he tried to blame it on "the woman"?

All these are very broad strokes... .and yes I like simple things... simple thinking, yet I don't see any Biblical or other example for that matter, that would suggest it's ok to continue with my wife's financial pattern.

FF

[formflier]

Well... decision time came sooner than I figured.

I was doing some exercise to work on my back and the call came in to discuss some shopping.  She was pleasant, I said sounds good and thanked her for handing this.

The money was put in the account and the shopping was handled.

It felt icky... .but I figured I would try it.  I'll find a time in the next day or two to discuss the behavior.

I suppose I'm signing on to try this, since there seems to be an overwhelming majority supporting separating the issues.

What ideas do you guys have about a conversation about the behavior?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

What ideas do you guys have about a conversation about the behavior?

What behavior specifically are you referring to?

I tend to think of pwBPD like horses--if the behavior is in the past more than 3 seconds--it's forgotten about and referencing it makes one seem like a jerk. Of course people tend to have a bit longer time frame than that... .

[Fian]

It's interesting how different people focus on different parts of the Bible.

How do you "turn the other cheek" yet also "protect your heart"?

If "all scripture" is equally valid (as long as you don't take it out of context)... .I don't see Matthew 5 as saying that you ALWAYS must turn the cheek.  Especially since Jesus didn't... .he was physically forceful when it was appropriate.

So... .there is a judgment call to be made in the "turning your cheek".  For me... .if it's a new issue that "comes out of nowhere"... .I'm a cheek turner.  If it's a repetitive an unrepentant pattern... .I'll go into "protect your heart mode".

I struggle to think of when I would "use a whip"... .but I suppose my choice to call CPS and stop spanking in my house would be up that alley.  My wife certainly expresses it that way.

I don't think this is a dichotomous choice.  Turn the cheek or not.  I focus much of my prayer on asking for wisdom to guide my actions and in "picking" the right scriptural viewpoint.

FF

I agree with you.  That is why I said it was complex.  Some times you turn the other cheek, some times you don't.  The same would be true with your wife speaking disrespectfully when asking for money.

As for the Joseph side of things, does this answer your question?

[Fian]

Well... decision time came sooner than I figured.

I was doing some exercise to work on my back and the call came in to discuss some shopping.  She was pleasant, I said sounds good and thanked her for handing this.

The money was put in the account and the shopping was handled.

It felt icky... .but I figured I would try it.  I'll find a time in the next day or two to discuss the behavior.

I suppose I'm signing on to try this, since there seems to be an overwhelming majority supporting separating the issues.

What ideas do you guys have about a conversation about the behavior?

FF

My thoughts are along the lines of, it hurt me when you did such and such, or I am disappointed that our marriage has gotten to this point.  I would like a marriage where we can have tough discussions and disagree, but never get to the point of name calling or swearing at each other.

P.S.  If you are going to try something new, why not focus on prayer for this issue and the upcoming conversation?

[formflier]

As for the Joseph side of things, does this answer your question?

Not really... .

My point was (going from memory here... .) that Joseph made the jump through hoops to confirm their intentions and yes he did eventually move past the hurt in the relationship.  It was certainly more complex than turn the other cheek.

Ugg... .been a while and don't have time to read that story again.  Hopefully I got the gist of it.

FF

[Notwendy]

For me, I think behaviors are best addressed in the moment. Trying to talk about them a while after the fact is less effective.  I also think your wife is aware that the cussing was hurtful and sort of apologized.

I also think it is good to use "I" rather than "you" in discussions. "You" tends to be triggering. The next time she cusses, or says something hurtful, respond from the "I" position. " It hurts when I hear this" then be quiet. A conversation can't continue without you participating back. Sometimes it takes repeating, especially when being "baited" into a conflict. You can also use " I am feeling too upset to continue this conversation at the moment" and retreat. This has the potential to change a pattern of circular argument. It may not get you the resolution you are wanting in the moment, but it may change the behavior over time as the cussing, insulting doesn't have the same impact as it did.