Boys night out instead of work

[snowglobe]

After all the turmoil during the day, I kept on driving kids back and fourth to extracurricular I came home to my unpdh being gone, and a text message, I’m in the office... .
There isn’t anything he can’t do from his laptop at home, which he brings to the office. I suspected that there was something off right away. When I pulled over to the office I saw literally a parking lot filled with cars. I walked upstairs and saw my uBPDh already intoxicated, sitting at the table, with bunch of other men from the community I know, all bad seeds. Some do same drug as he does frequently, other cheating public ally on their wives, scammers and losers. A few of them previously taken advantage of my uBPDh financially and scammed him from money.
There is was, sitting there with this smirk on his face, already relapsing three days out of the retreat. I asked if I can speak to him, privately. He said “I’m busy and looked down on his phone”, he made me wait for about 5 minutes, then took the call... .talked about his stock crushing, then hung up, turned to me and said:
“Why are you here?”
I replied :” why are you here?”
(I’m not allowed to go anywhere, even pharmacy at night without letting him know. I was never allowed to go out by myself, to see my girlfriends! And here he was, just taking off at his will, because he felt like it, without even letting me know)
I was left standing as he walked away half laughing.
I know what you all will say, why did you go?
The answer is, I don’t know... .it hurt so much, I’m trying to save this marriage, almost skinning myself in the process”
I don’t need to be right, I want to be effective, but what is effective in this case?

[formflier]

He tossed out "bait"... .you took it... hook line and sinker.

Not trying to be harsh... but clear.

He acted like a teenager that snuck out of the house... ."Mom" went out looking for him... and then stood there and took his disrespect.

Please... .walk yourself and us step by step through your decision making where you decided to take action to track him down.

Let him do his thing... .the "control" you believe you have is an illusion.  It's actually feeding the problem.  He ran... you chased.

Let him run away... he will get tired of running at some point.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with FF. You're trying so hard to control him and he's acting out, trying to hurt you. If you give up controlling, placating, massaging, basically demeaning yourself before him, he might start to respect you. Currently he doesn't.

[snowglobe]

He tossed out "bait"... .you took it... hook line and sinker.

Not trying to be harsh... but clear.

He acted like a teenager that snuck out of the house... ."Mom" went out looking for him... and then stood there and took his disrespect.

Please... .walk yourself and us step by step through your decision making where you decided to take action to track him down.

Let him do his thing... .the "control" you believe you have is an illusion.  It's actually feeding the problem.  He ran... you chased.

Let him run away... he will get tired of running at some point.

FF

Completely agree with fishing analogy. I’m pretty terrible fisherman, as I have little patience to sit and wait, also when it baits, I tug and pull on the rod too fast. As a result, eighty percent of the catch gets away before it even surfaces.
To decision making-
I come home, it’s 10 pm, the car is gone, I’m already worried he will relapse to smoking, so I’m thinking he  went to a gas station to buy smokes. I then realize that I have a full drawer of his favourite kind of tobacco in a drawer, so he wouldn’t be there. I then think something happened to the shares or business and he needed several monitors to work. As I walk to the house i check my phone and see “I’m at the office” message, I also remembered it is Thursday and it’s the day when some of his employees throw “man parties” with lots of booze, poker, occasionally drugs and prostituties. I imagine what you people might think. Well, believe me you, the part of the world where we came from, “the wolf of the wall street” is just another day at the office.
I drop off the kids at home with my mom, ask my kids what they want to get as a late night snack, and drive to his office in hopes of seeing him actually working. Maybe even asking him what can I help to ease his burden. By the time I corner the car, I already know this isn’t “hiring the midnight oil in the office”. I run upstairs with my heart skipping the beat, bracing myself for an impact. Fidelity is a huge factor for me, the hill I will die on, unconsciously I’m clutching the phone in my hand. Two things were running through my mind, if I catch him red handed, I have to record, so I can have a proof of both, his drug habit and infidelity. Second, once I see it with my own eyes, what will I do next?
I walk into the board room to my uBPDh sitting there with other men, chatting normally. I put on a calm facade and ask him to step out. They aren’t doi anything yet, such as playing poker, there is a lot of booze around, I see a can of beer beside my uBPDh. I wait while he is telling me “I’m busy, I’m reading the news”.
I stand there, humiliated and embarrassed as I scan the room for familiar faces, I note people I saw with my own eyes doing drugs and having extra marital affairs. I also notice a former friend of my uBPDh who loaned money for his “jailed brother’s for bail”, and then went and bought his then girlfriend cartier bracelet, he never paid that money back. All the while the same time I was struggling to make the ends meet and budget for our family. When I pressed uBPDh to have him return the money, he just waved his hand and said, forget it. You see?. He can’t press anyone or fight for himself, only with me and the kids he is cruel and nasty.
I stand there with my heart pounding, he gets up and takes a call. It’s a mutual investor and he speaks about the price of the stock, uBPDh walks to his office. We walk in and I shut the door. He is still on the phone and sits down in his capitan chair, I sit across the desk. I wait for about 3 minutes for uBPDh to finish the conversation. He hangs up and gets up looking at me with hostility. “What do you want? Why are you here?”
I reply:” I want to understand why are you here? Implying, you saw me 2 hrs ago, and you have not mentioned you were planning to go out?”
As he starts to walk away, he half smiles with triumph and mockingly says “I’m not talking about it”,
I’m left in the hall, alone.
I walk back downstairs to my car, sit inside, start driving and break out in sobs.
This isn’t fair, if he is controlling my every move, I’m not allowed to go anywhere if he is home during the day, or he gets mad at me and then transfers his anger to everyone in the household. Gosh, I’m not even allowed to speak on the phone if he wants my attention. The only household chore I’m allowed to do while he is home is to cook and bake, but only what he enjoys. Everything else is met with criticism and grumbling. Here he is, full of people that are destructive for him, who took an advantage of him, being all nice and friendly.
I’m crying for all of the injustice and imbalance in these relationships, I’m crying because I’ve been trying so hard to keep him healthy, both mentally and emotionally, I’ve been trying to keep his successful and prosperous, most importantly, I’ve tried to make him love me.
As I drove home, I called my best friend. She told me to cry it out, then go home and put on a mask for the sake of my children. She said “they don’t need early morning fights and see you cry, they didn’t choose this, nor should they be a part of this circus”. So I picked up the take out and put on a brave face.
As I walked upstairs, s11 asked me to stay with him, when I walked into my bedroom I saw his pillow and blanket removed. It twisted a knot in my stomach, he took everything downstairs to the basement. Physically showing that he has checked out from the relationships

[snowglobe]

I agree with FF. You're trying so hard to control him and he's acting out, trying to hurt you. If you give up controlling, placating, massaging, basically demeaning yourself before him, he might start to respect you. Currently he doesn't.

I don’t understand why he is doing this. I mean, I do... .his industry is crashing, so he is blaming me for everything. But why me?
Why not the stock, not the employees, not the partner? Why me?

[Cat Familiar]

Why you? Because you're an easy target. Remember feelings = facts in BPD land. And it's much easier to blame you than to try and look at things objectively.

Remember the apocryphal story about the guy at work who gets scolded by the boss? Because he can't talk back to the boss, he goes home and takes it out on his wife (the 1950s version of the story) or kicks the dog (the more current version).

[snowglobe]

He also said, just before I left to drive the kids, that he was leaving on Sunday... .
This is becoming a very ugly thing he is pulling me into.
I don’t know how to act tomorrow, do I say anything? Do I asknowledge is presence? Do I silent treat him back? Do I go out just to prove the point? Do I go and tell him to have rough intercourse with himself? Do I tell him to go and od on the street? Do I tell him that I hate and resent him?

None of these options give me what I want- love and intimacy

[snowglobe]

I woke up around 1 pm to my uBPDh still being away. I called him to remind him that I needed to wake up early tomorrow and he needs to move his car. I couldn’t fall asleep after. Then I heard some noise outside of my house and came out. Three cars, including one of them being my husband car were speeding along a sleepy neighborhood at the high speed. I could see he was swinging the car, when he rolled out, I saw just how intoxicated he was. The other cars slowly drove off, I recognized the same people from his impromptu party. One of those gentlemen is a convict. He started saying in a regretting voice :but where did they go? Why did they leave? (I’m sure because I was standing on my driveway). The proceeded to his closet and came out with a stash of cocaine, which is the substance he abuses to self regulate. I started crying and screaming. I can’t have these people and these things in the house I share with my children. He told me to shut up and went to pass the drugs over to those people. I was standing their in my driveway waiting for them to leave.
I went after him, saying things like, how can you do this to us?
He went saying that since I’m married to the house, I should shut the f up. He is refusing to discuss what his rational for sale is, but keeps on telling me things is :you are repulsive for me, you are disgusting.
It’s one thing to split on me, it’s another to keep drugs in a house with small children and invite convicts over, while entire family is asleep. I’m fairly certain that my intuitive woke me up, if I didn’t, he’s be snorting this garbage till the cows come home, or he runs out.
I’m so fed up with this splitting, physical abuse, drug abuse that I am ready to involve police at this point. Maybe they will send him to mendacity rehab? They were all visibly intoxiczted. The idea that he would get killed, or worse, take an innocent life send the chills down my spine. So there, my uBPDh choice of poison is expensive cocaine.

[AskingWhy]

He also said, just before I left to drive the kids, that he was leaving on Sunday... .
This is becoming a very ugly thing he is pulling me into.
I don’t know how to act tomorrow, do I say anything? Do I asknowledge is presence? Do I silent treat him back? Do I go out just to prove the point? Do I go and tell him to have rough intercourse with himself? Do I tell him to go and od on the street? Do I tell him that I hate and resent him?

None of these options give me what I want- love and intimacy

    First of all, Snowglobe, some hugs.

People with BPD are emotional toddlers or teenagers.  They completely lack the sense to see others outside of their own immediate needs. That is why BPDs, toddlers and teens can be infuriating.  They scream "it's all about me."  Someone in that frame of mind can't give love nor intimacy.  

When BPDs split, they are different people.  This is especially true when they are around others from whom they derive their identity.

BPDs don't really have a sense of who they are, so they become chameleons by mimicking others. This can be bad if they hang around with a bad crowd. My BPD is a totally different person around some of his friends and coworkers.  He has one friend who is much like an older brother to H, and H follows his every lead from the clothes he wears to the cars he buys--right down to the colour and designer or car model.  H is a slavish copy cat to his friend.  Now H wants to move to the same neighborhood the friend lives in not looking at the fact that the friend has a better paying job (and never had children) and whose life savings were not decimated by paying child support to a uNPD X W for nearly 18 years like H did.  (H and his X W were the perfect BPD/NPD couple.)

My uBPD H only found the guts to chastise only me for what he did not approve of.  For his children, he cut them every slack and them some from their losing jobs, dropping out of college, getting kicked out of the military, drugs and alcohol plus lawyer fees and rehab, countless car accidents and the list goes on.

BPDs use drugs and alcohol to fill up the void they see in themselves and the pain of not knowing who they are.  This is obvious in my H.  He is a responsible worker and high functioning with a great career, but occasionally he will get with his close pal and then down a twelve pack of beer in an evening - by himself while his pal will down 12.  (Not to worry-they won't drive.  H will just fall asleep at his friend's house or have the man's wife drive him home.)  I think H anesthetises himself with the alcohol.  I already told him my boundary on his drinking:  if he gets a DUI, I am filing for divorce.  No negotiating.

I know the pain and hurt you feel and the futility that nothing can be done.  

I was where you are at one time: my H's behaviour had me in tears.  I am now at the point that I am ready to leave when it gets too much for me to take.  I know I did not cause his behaviour, but I do not deserve to be his punching back to be disrespected nor put behind his children in priority.  He routinely spends a lot of money on his children from expensive designer clothes to drug rehab, and he spends money on himself on his sports cars and hobbies.  One time he went out of town on a business trip for three weeks.  When he got home, did he spend it with me?  No.  Instead he immediate went on a camping trip with his drug addict son.  One anniversary, I got trinkets while one of his daughters got very fine jewellery and new skis.  I got a pair of cheap nylon car seat covers.  Can you see the reason I am still so angry?

If you have not already, please read Randi Kreger's "The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder."

https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Family-Borderline-Personality-Disorder/dp/1592853633?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffsb-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1592853633

Also read Bill Eddy's "Splitting," as this is a resource for nons considering divorce, starting the process, or in the middle of a divorce.

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536907156&sr=8-1&keywords=eddy+splitting

This book does not excuse the bad actions of our pwBPD, but you will be able to see those actions are not really targeted at you, the hardest part of having a partner who is BPD.  

[AskingWhy]

duplicate

[AskingWhy]

As I walked upstairs, s11 asked me to stay with him, when I walked into my bedroom I saw his pillow and blanket removed. It twisted a knot in my stomach, he took everything downstairs to the basement. Physically showing that he has checked out from the relationships

My H often does this when he wants to show how much he hates me.  He takes his pillow from our bed and sleeps on the couch.  I can last for several days, and then H will take his pillow and begin sleeping in our bed.  Nothing is said of his sleeping on the couch. 

It's an abusive tactic and a form of withholding affection.  It's an adult tantrum.  This is also an infantile tactic.  It's like a child screaming, "I hate you and I don't want to play with you anymore."

[Notwendy]

I don’t understand why he is doing this.

It may be better to focus on why you are doing all the controlling, monitoring, massaging, caretaking. It isn't possible to change another person, and it may not even be possible to understand another person's reasons fully, but you can learn to understand yourself and make changes in you.

When I read your posts about what your H is doing, I see behaviors that are disturbing. But to be honest- said with care and concern- what you are doing is concerning too.

Your H has addictive behaviors, but co-dependent /enabling behaviors can also be addictive. You feel out of control when you are controlling him and, it is hard, perhaps impossible to resist the urge to monitor, control, rescue, fix. Most of these behaviors are fear driven. You fear if you don't do it, he's going to do something dangerous, or cheat. When you do this, you think you are saving him, or your marriage, but your losing yourself in the meantime. This is emotionally as harmful to you as drinking or doing drugs is physically harmful to him.

You are thinking that something you do will make him stop doing what he is doing, but what you are doing is bringing the same results over and over again. He has no reason to stop as there are no consequences to him acting the way he does. You also are managing your own fears by trying to control him- and this is driving you to continue to do what you are doing. To stop this pattern- someone has to change- and if you want something to change- it starts with you.

The issues in my marriage were different than this, but I felt I was on some kind of hamster wheel trying to improve my marriage by fixing, soothing, caretaking and being a doormat while my H had hissy fits and treated me with disrepect. I finally convinced him to attend a marital counseling session ( after many attempts where he refused) and expected that finally the counselor would point out to him what he was doing. Instead, she pointed at me and said " you are co-dependent and you need to attend 12 step meetings".

I was shocked. I hardly even drink, except  some wine on occasion, and don't do drugs and found myself in the middle of a room full of addicts, alcoholics, and co-dependent people wondering why I was there. Then, a sponsor who had the fortitude to put me through the steps, turning the mirror on me, helped me to understand why being an enabler was also an emotionally harmful behavior. The MC helped me with this too. With help and support, I was able to change some of these patterns. I don't have a perfect marriage, probably nobody does, but I learned to manage the childhood fears and patterns that led me to be an enabler. My BPD mother was a scary person to me as a child but I am an adult now, and I don't have to fear her. Your father scared you as a child, but you are an adult now. If your H were to leave, or harm himself, or loose his business it would be a tough thing to deal with, but the fears of this possibly happening are also creating tough issues for you.

My wish for you is that you find some people to help you like others helped me. We can help you on these posts but in addition, someone face to face- a counselor, a sponsor, someone who understands these issues could help guide you and support you through these personal changes.

In my 12 step groups are multiple religious views. The original AA Blue Book was written by Christians and while it isn't a religious text, some people are not comfortable with the wording and references. They have adapted the program to fit their own views. This has been adapted to Judaism as well and there are sources on the internet/books from that perspective. Yet more than reading - sitting down face to face with a sponsor or counselor ( of any religious view) who is able to turn the mirror on your ( because she/he has been there) is invaluable.

My wish for you is that you take some of that focus off your H and what he is doing and take care of yourself- because, you are worth it. Also don't blame yourself- you are not doing something wrong, you are doing what you know how to do. It just takes learning to do something different. I was raised to be co-dependent and I didn't know anything else. I believed I was a good person by helping and I am a good person- and so are you, but I wasn't being as good to myself- and I learned that enabling others was not good for them either. You can be good to others and to you too. I hope you believe you are worth it- you are.

[formflier]

  Why me?

Because you are available and you "take it".

Therefore... .

If you stop taking it, he will likely try to do this much less... .

FF

[formflier]

I called him to remind him that I needed to wake up early tomorrow and he needs to move his car.

Why on earth... would you do this?

If you do this for him... .why on earth would he ever learn to do it himself?

Seriously...

Do you still tie you kids shoes?  Why did you stop helping your kids with their shoes?  (serious question)

FF

[snowglobe]

Good morning all,
I just read the replies and will answer individually. I will go back to Co dependent anonymous on upcoming wednesday. I was there before, but traveling schedule stopped me from attending frequently. This form of damage control is a second nature to me. I don’t know how to stop it. Multiple things are going through my mind, one of them is his going out habits. On its own, there isn’t anything wrong with spending some time apart. For my unpdh going out becomes “a hall pass” at being single. He is drinking, meeting people, does recreational drugs, whatever else he does. I stay home worried, pissed odd and confused. For that reason we agreed to go out only together. I stuck to my end of the bargain for 17 years, he intermittently relapses.
I care very deeply for his well being, otherwise I wouldn’t be doing this frantic efforts to fix the situation, on the other hand, perhaps it isn’t him at al, but my childhood fears that I’m keeping at bay.
I don’t know how to react when he comes up in the morning. Do I speak of the last nigh? Do I stay out of it?
He quite enjoyed last night’s spectacle, especially when I started crying. He started smiling and had a peaceful expression on his face. I will try to find someone to speak to today, meanwhile, I’m glad I kept a vigilant watch to make sure that my kids didn’t wake up to the drug den.

[Notwendy]

Drama is like a drug rush. It releases all kinds of neurotransmitters in one's brain. It can have an addictive effect. You may both be "hooked" on it.  One thing I noticed after a stressful night with my H was that I felt awful the next day. A later recognized this feeling as a hangover- even though I had not been drinking. It was a hangover caused by the emotions and neurotransmitters going on during the drama.

I then was able to recognize my urge to step into it as if someone were offering me a drink or a drug- even though I didn't use them. Apparently my own emotions were acting in the same way. Two people can get hooked on emotional drama between each other. You have already recognized that your H seemed to enjoy the emotional distress on your part.

Each time you feel the urge to check on him, to intervene, to bring something up ( and you know how it will go if you bring this up to him this morning ), imagine someone handing you a big needle full of heroin. Try to say no to this temptation. When he comes home, go about your day as usual. Don't step into that mudhole of drama.

Do you have a sponsor at CODA? I highly recommend you get one. You will then have someone hold you accountable and help support you as you work towards attaining "emotional sobriety".

I  know you care very much about him. So do the countless family members whose loved ones are addicts. But they have to contend with the facts that- adults are able to make their own decision. He decided to have a drug party. One boundary you can have is to ask him to not do it in the house. If he does, you can call the police. It may unfortunately take some time in jail for him to learn that this is breaking the law. If this sounds cruel, then I can tell you stories of families who enable their loved ones to not face the consequence of doing drugs our of fear they would get in trouble. The drug use doesn't stop. A 3 day retreat isn't enough to stop this. It would take at least a month in a hospital treatment center- with follow up ,or treatment in jail. Loving someone by enabling them can actually keep them sick and addicted.

For now, take care of himself. If he's going to put cocaine in his nose, you can not stop him. It is impossible to control what an adult eats, drinks or snorts unless you watch him 24/7- but then, you have no time for yourself, or your children, and as you can see, the minute you go out, he's going to do it anyway.

[snowglobe]

Drama is like a drug rush. It releases all kinds of neurotransmitters in one's brain. It can have an addictive effect. You may both be "hooked" on it.  One thing I noticed after a stressful night with my H was that I felt awful the next day. A later recognized this feeling as a hangover- even though I had not been drinking. It was a hangover caused by the emotions and neurotransmitters going on during the drama.

I then was able to recognize my urge to step into it as if someone were offering me a drink or a drug- even though I didn't use them. Apparently my own emotions were acting in the same way. Two people can get hooked on emotional drama between each other. You have already recognized that your H seemed to enjoy the emotional distress on your part.

Each time you feel the urge to check on him, to intervene, to bring something up ( and you know how it will go if you bring this up to him this morning ), imagine someone handing you a big needle full of heroin. Try to say no to this temptation. When he comes home, go about your day as usual. Don't step into that mudhole of drama.

Do you have a sponsor at CODA? I highly recommend you get one. You will then have someone hold you accountable and help support you as you work towards attaining "emotional sobriety".

I  know you care very much about him. So do the countless family members whose loved ones are addicts. But they have to contend with the facts that- adults are able to make their own decision. He decided to have a drug party. One boundary you can have is to ask him to not do it in the house. If he does, you can call the police. It may unfortunately take some time in jail for him to learn that this is breaking the law. If this sounds cruel, then I can tell you stories of families who enable their loved ones to not face the consequence of doing drugs our of fear they would get in trouble. The drug use doesn't stop. A 3 day retreat isn't enough to stop this. It would take at least a month in a hospital treatment center- with follow up ,or treatment in jail. Loving someone by enabling them can actually keep them sick and addicted.

For now, take care of himself. If he's going to put cocaine in his nose, you can not stop him. It is impossible to control what an adult eats, drinks or snorts unless you watch him 24/7- but then, you have no time for yourself, or your children, and as you can see, the minute you go out, he's going to do it anyway.

@notwendy,
Thank you for the comparison, I will try and sustain this mental picture in my mind. It is the constant chase, and drama that indeed feeds on to this cycle. On my part, the reaction is automatic and conditioned, very much like Pavlov’s in classical conditioning, even time he dusregulates, I run after him trying to stop him from spinning and fix it for our family. My father was never a drug user, he was npd and a habitual smoker. He was also always down, dysinterested in me and disengaged. I try to fix the same issues I had in my primary relationships projecting them over to my uBPDh. I am a codependent Addict. I have a program in my head, if I just try harder, hold on longer, look better, be more educated, better cook, better partner in all of his endeavours, then he will start loving me, caring about me, showing some interest in me... .
I imagine it doesn’t work this way?. I need to come to terms with who I am, and start loving myself. I don’t love me, in crisis, I put other people’s masks first, because I think I can manage long enough until I see them through it. I find myself feeling guilty for detaching, after all, if I detach, he doesn’t have the skills to solve this on his own.
These things always happen right before my big tests, exams, kids interviews, birthdays, anniversaries, parties and Projects. Every time my attention isn’t 100% on him, or in agreement, he takes himself and the entire family on a joy ride.

[Cat Familiar]

if I just try harder, hold on longer, look better, be more educated, better cook, better partner in all of his endeavours, then he will start loving me, caring about me, showing some interest in me... .

It never ends--the cycle of trying to win his love. And why would he stop? He's got a servant who breaks her back working to please him.

I imagine it doesn’t work this way?. I need to come to terms with who I am, and start loving myself. I don’t love me, in crisis, I put other people’s masks first, because I think I can manage long enough until I see them through it. I find myself feeling guilty for detaching, after all, if I detach, he doesn’t have the skills to solve this on his own.

You're afraid to let him fail and he knows that. In fact, it's very demeaning to him to be treated that way. You don't trust him and he knows that. It's true that he may not be trustworthy, but by acting as if he's not, you're getting the rebellious teenage behavior. I don't think that's what you're after.
 

These things always happen right before my big tests, exams, kids interviews, birthdays, anniversaries, parties and Projects. Every time my attention isn’t 100% on him, or in agreement, he takes himself and the entire family on a joy ride.

So typical with pwBPD or pwNPD is that when the attention is not entirely focused upon them, that they will act out and pull that attention back. When are you going to finish your schooling and get your degree? Everything in your life is catered to his needs and whims. This is not healthy for either you or your children.

[snowglobe]

It never ends--the cycle of trying to win his love. And why would he stop? He's got a servant who breaks her back working to please him.

You're afraid to let him fail and he knows that. In fact, it's very demeaning to him to be treated that way. You don't trust him and he knows that. It's true that he may not be trustworthy, but by acting as if he's not, you're getting the rebellious teenage behavior. I don't think that's what you're after.
 
So typical with pwBPD or pwNPD is that when the attention is not entirely focused upon them, that they will act out and pull that attention back. When are you going to finish your schooling and get your degree? Everything in your life is catered to his needs and whims. This is not healthy for either you or your children.

@Cat,
I realize it now, it’s also more then that- you see, my youngest in on the Autism Spectrum Disorder. He needs very expensive yet effective treatment to be able to have a normal life. He is very high functioning bright boy, but without the therapy, he doesn’t have a shot at life. I’ve been on a wait list for the treatment first time for 4 years, uBPDh was covering the complete cost of treatment on his own. He is very bright and resourceful, with my help he was able to stay on track to make money to pay for s11 therapy. We need it for another 7 years, I’m on a wait list again, for already a year. My uBPDh is currently covering all of the expenses. With my education and experience I won’t make enough to make the ends meet and pay for the treatment. UBPDh knows it. Hence he uses this fear to control me.

[formflier]

Yet I'm sure a solution will present itself.

Seriously... .

I can't do the right thing because... .(son's thing, daughters sport, parents in house, boys night out, stock price up, stock price down, hookers, divorced partners, married partners, drug users, leases... (and on and on)

You can almost always find a reason.

Life is simpler if you do what you need to do.

It may not be the perfect life, but you will find a way forward.

My life today compared to my plans of 5 and 10 years ago... .totally different.

I enjoy my life I have great relationships.  I have a sucky relationship with my wife.  It's better than it was last year... .and years before that. 

I'm sure some of this will change by next year... .

Wash rinse repeat...

FF

[Notwendy]

On my part, the reaction is automatic and conditioned, very much like Pavlov’s in classical conditioning, even time he dusregulates, I run after him trying to stop him from spinning and fix it for our family. My father was never a drug user, he was npd and a habitual smoker. He was also always down, dysinterested in me and disengaged. I try to fix the same issues I had in my primary relationships projecting them over to my uBPDh. I am a codependent Addict. I have a program in my head, if I just try harder, hold on longer, look better, be more educated, better cook, better partner in all of his endeavours, then he will start loving me, caring about me, showing some interest in me... .
I imagine it doesn’t work this way?.

No, it doesn't.

I know this pattern ( it takes one to know one) as I have the same one from growing up with BPD mom and an enabling father. The task in our family was : if I just try harder, hold on longer, look better, do well in school so they would be proud of me, obey my mother in any of her wishes and do not upset her at all, then mommy will think I am good enough and she and Daddy will love me, care about me, show some interest in me... .I was a doormat to my parents and I took all this into my marriage.

I was miserable, but had several "ah-ha" moments. One of them was my father's death. He died after a long illness so it was something we all knew was coming at one point. I had this idea that - maybe he will finally decide to love me, care about me, show some interest in me and leave me his blessing before it is too late. I do think he loved me to the best of his ability, but his focus was 100% on my mother. Like your H, she demanded 100% of him. I was putting out every effort to win his love- but it didn't work. Once he was gone, I realized that there wasn't anything else I could do, and none of it worked- because what I was doing didn't work. I was co-dependent on my father ( and my husband) and my father was co-dependent on my mother and what he was doing didn't work- and he tried for decades. I realized that if my own father's ( who was educated, intelligent, and had the means to help my mother) efforts over decades didn't work- that what he was doing doesn't work. That was when I knew I couldn't do what I was doing- not in my marriage and not with my mother.

Change was tough work, but I wanted it enough to do it. I committed to taking my sponsor and counselor's advice. It isn't easy to change an old, familiar pattern. It is sometimes one step forward and then backwards. Having a sponsor to call when I was emotionally stressed was invaluable.

Your son may benefit from the therapy, but he also needs a mother. He doesn't have one at the moment. He has you to do things for him, but you are 100% focused on taking care of his father's emotional and physical desires. My father thankfully provided for us, and we had moments where he could focus on us but I wanted a Daddy and Daddy was all about my sick, and out of control BPD mother, and she is still as sick and BPD as ever. He didn't know more than he did. Information about BPD and co-dependency was not available to him as a younger man, and change is tough at an older age. However, if he could have done something different, I would say that not enabling her would have been a step to try because his enabling prevented her from gaining any emotional regulation or self soothing skills if it were ever possible. That, I don't know, but one doesn't know until you try. I don't know if your son's therapy is better for him than an emotionally absent mom who is focused on his emotionally checked out father. I am not an expert in autism, but I think any child would want to have a mother who was available to him.
 
My marriage isn't perfect, but I can say it is a lot better since I stopped enabling. I took a risk- my H could have left, but instead, he decided he was invested in our family. Other people may not. You are preventing your H by deciding whether or not he is invested enough to stick around by doing all you can to control his decision about that. All he has to do is threat and you jump into action. But what if he had to decide on his own? It is a scary thought as he may choose to leave, or cheat, or snort too much coke, but he may also decide that his family is worth sticking around for, and that would be a positive change. If he wants to leave, you couldn't really control that either.

I know you love your husband and your children. I am a mom too and understand wanting to do everything possible for my kids. However, your husband is an adult. It isn't your job to parent a grown man. My wish is that you extend that love to yourself. Each of us is an individual made to be who we are. I hope you can love and be yourself.

[snowglobe]

@notwendy,
What a heart wrenching testament. I feel as if it’s my daughter who wrote it. You are exactly spot on, I can’t even add or imagine anything else. In my mind I’m saving the children and our family. If you asked my daughter, she will probably say otherwise. She get angry that it’s always about “dad”, either he is mad and calling you, or you need to do something for him. I know I can’t do this alone. I need help. Before my children grow up and leave me alone with all regrets and wasted time. Thank you Wendy, you gave me a glimpse of how my kid’s life could turn out should I continue going down the same rabbit hole

[formflier]

  wasted time.

Thank you Wendy, you gave me a glimpse of how my kid’s life could turn out should I continue going down the same rabbit hole.

Keep focus on this... .you manage YOUR time... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I know how tough these automatic patterns are. It's overwhelming to try to change everything at once. Do you have a source of getting help? Have you been in therapy? Can you go back to your CODA group?

Although I had heard of co-dependency, I had a hard time understanding it. I am not a "dependent" person- and it didn't make sense to me. It doesn't mean "dependent" in that way. It means being reactive, responsive to another person rather than self determined- making decisions based on our own judgment. Instead, co-dependent people are focused on another person and base their decisions on that other person's moods and feelings. My father was not dependent on my mother in the general meaning of that word- he earned the family income, so he didn't rely on her for that. She didn't really do much of the child care/home making so he didn't depend on her for that. Yet, he was co-dependent - her moods ruled the family and decisions were based on her wishes and moods not his own judgment and decisions. I think all marriages involve people making joint decisions, and also even going along with the other person at times, but co-dependency is an extreme of one person's moods and wishes being the main focus, especially when that person is disordered.

So someone can be a self sufficient person and also co-dependent.

One reason I suggest the 12 steps is that it was a different approach from counseling. I had done counseling but it seemed more supportive of my position. Yes, I have a disordered mother and my H was not treating me well, but counseling didn't get deeply into my part in this. The 12 steps turned the mirror on me, made me 100% accountable for my situation. At first I though it was unfair and kind of mean, until I got the idea that taking full accountability for my part allowed me to change my part. That part was not contingent on anyone else. It was stepwise, but there was progress in a way I didn't get with counseling alone. I know for some people the wording and even the religiosity of the original program doesn't fit exactly, and some of it didn't seem to fit me, but the process of self examination and steps to change that- worked and that is why I think it will work for people of any background.

So where to get help? Can you go back to the meetings and ( after getting to know some of the people and their comfort with the steps and sponsoring )choose a sponsor- someone who will hold you accountable with ( tough) love. It's safe- the sponsor has been where you are- and so isn't being critical of you personally- he/she can turn the mirror on you, help you make steps to change over time, one thing at a time. If you have a counselor or can get one- do that too. Both were helpful in different ways.

[snowglobe]

Keep focus on this... .you manage YOUR time... .

FF

Yesterday was an interesting day, I wonder what you think of it. I had university class and needed to leave during the day. My mom called uBPDh to pick up the youngest s11, the kids go to two different schools, she can’t be in two different places at the same time. When I got back from class late afternoon he drove the kids to extracurricular activities. When he came back, I asked him how the things are? He mumbled something incoherent. I set down beside him on the couch, and held his hand, squeezing of rhythmically. He just went relaxed and lump on me and has the most serene look on his face. I sat like that for about an hour, then I reminded him that he needs to pick our d15 while I fetch our son. When he arrived back, he was in very high spirits, laughing and talking to d15. He was constantly saying :”tell mom” xyz. I didn’t know what to think. He then put on a family tv show and we all watched into a late night. Then he asked my s15, do you want to sleep with me? If my goes to sleep in your bedroom, you can sleep with me. I didn’t take the bait, so he went back to basement to sleep. Before he left, he dropped :” we need to leave earlier on Sunday (implying to another city where he works) so we can make it early to your Friday class”. Curtains close... .I had nightmares all night long, what is happing?

[formflier]

I think everything revolved around him... what he needed... .what he did... what he wants to do... .

Live your life... let him live his.   Where you guys find mutual agreement on things to do together... enjoy that time.

I realize your current life is a long way from that... .what you do tomorrow is a first step towards where you want to be.

FF

[Notwendy]

I hope this was a typo and he did not ask the 15 year old daughter to sleep with him

[snowglobe]

I hope this was a typo and he did not ask the 15 year old daughter to sleep with him

@Notwendy,
He habitually asks s11 to co sleep with us when he is dysregulaged and I’m not running after him to soothe him. S11 being on a spectrum still has this “innocence” to him, that only young children preserve. UBPDh asks to hold his hand and falls asleep, while I sleep on the other side of s11. He did this with our daughter who is now 15 until about 3 years ago. He is recruiting children to help and regulate him, and if they refuse, he calls them “useless”, and goes onto a rant of “why do I need you?”. S11 is a very sensitive boy, he picks non verbal emotions and then gets anxious that “dad is always in a bad mood”.

[formflier]

Boy... .I usually have something to say. At the moment I'm struggling for good advice.

You know, when I'm not sure what to do, it's usually time to get professional advice.  I generally get a couple of opinions.

I would certainly want others to "validate" this as good idea before you try it.

I think you need to go to S11s doctors, therapists and caregivers and lay all of this out for them.  Ask them if S11 should be involved in this.

I'd go with whatever they say.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

He is recruiting children to help and regulate him, and if they refuse, he calls them “useless”, and goes onto a rant of “why do I need you?”.


I am not a professional but having experienced being "used" to sooth a parent, I will call this by it's name: emotional incest. It's a form of abuse, one that I was subjected to. Abuse isn't just battering. My parents did not abuse me physically or through sexual touching, but this isn't what emotional incest is. I was also verbally abused and when your H says this to them- this is verbal abuse: 'he calls them “useless”, and goes onto a rant of “why do I need you?”.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/emotional-incest-when-is-close-too-close/

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/emotional-covert-incest-when-parents-make-their-kids-partners-0914165

Honestly, I felt my stomach turn when I read that your H was asking your son to sleep with him to soothe him. Not because I thought he'd intentionally molest him but because he was using him for his own needs. This is the opposite of what parenting is- the parent meets the child's needs. I know this may sound harsh but from those of us who experienced this- this is what it is.

Emotional incest is not sexual, and it also isn't being done with intent to harm the child. It isn't wrong to snuggle with a child ( appropriately). An emotionally healthy parent would snuggle with a child if the child were sick or having a bad dream- to help calm the child. It isn't emotionally healthy to ask the child to snuggle with the parent to meet the parent's need.