Nightmare ex

[LuauLady]

Hi BPD group -
I am married to someone who has a BPD-ex. In addition, there are two children with the ex, shared custody. We believe there is both alienation and parentification going on with the children. We feel powerless and helpless. Yes, we have both read SWOE, and many other BPD books. We have a good attorney that fully understands BPD. Just looking for support and any coping ideas.
-LuauLady

[Panda39]

Hi LuauLady,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

My significant other (SO) also has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters (now both young adults).

He experienced both Parental Alienation and Parentification of this older daughter, all of this at it's worse during the divorce.

I'm afraid I'm on my lunch break and have to return to work, but wanted to suggest a both a book and some youtube videos.

The Book... .
Divorce Poison New and Updated Edition: How to Protect Your Family from Bad-mouthing and Brainwashing by Dr. Richard A Warshak

Youtube & Google - Dr. Craig Childress (expert on Parental Alienation)

You're not alone in what you are experiencing many of us have gone through similar things.  I know others will be along shortly and I will come back and post this evening when I have more time.

If you have time can you share more of what you are seeing?  Are the kids receiving Therapy at all?  How long have you been married?  What does your custody look like at present?

So glad you decided to jump in and post, I know you will find this site and it's members as helpful as I have.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[livednlearned]

What are some of the resources you're already familiar with?

How old are the kids and what's the custody arrangement like?

My H has had varying degrees of success fending off alienation but each child has different degrees of receptiveness. The youngest is ASD and just turned 19, and appears to be 90 percent alienated. The other two are much more receptive and require different skill sets, altho age seems to be helping even when the skills aren't.

This has to be challenging for you. How are you holding up and what is your relationship with the kids like?

[LuauLady]

We currently have 50/50, but not in writing. (Original order, when a move-away was granted by court, was 30/70. The BPD moved 150 miles away for no reason, except to frustrate visitation. Kids were 4 and 6, when move-away was granted. BPD's parents facilitated, supported, and financed the move-away.) Met H after the children had been moved away. We have been together/married for 7 years.

Two years ago we moved to the city that BPD and children live in, and got verbal 50/50 visitation. The 50/50 has been in practice for two years, no issues. My H did not want to go to court to memorialize for fear the alienated children would choose to be with BPD 100%. Children are 14 and 16.

Both children have issues that are starting to come out, emotionally and academically. H has been trying for several years to get therapy, but BPD refuses. In our state it is law that both parents must provide permission for therapy. We are now pursuing relief from the court, which we do not like to do because the conflict is not good for the children. In addition, the BPD escalates and acts out, since they love conflict and drama.

The older child is being parentified and is BPD's protector. The younger child throws the BPD 'under the bus' regularly. Both are being alienated. A sample of things said, "mom (BPD) says you're a hypocrite," "mom (BPD) blames you for everything, everything is your fault," "I hate you, and everyone in mom's (BPD) family hates you," "it's your fault I couldn't have a birthday party, mom (BPD) said you planned one, and she couldn't," "mom says xyz City is not our home, our home is where mom (BPD) lives." Alienation is also being done by the grandparents, fairly certain grandma is a BPD.

I think I have a good relationship with the children, but it seems they are pulling away more now. I feel a hostility from the older child, but it could be personality and adolescence. Overall they are lovely and fun, we vacation together and go places together and enjoy our time. My H is very calm and understands it is a long game and only escalates when absolutely necessary (I wish he would do it more often). We see a couples therapist and also individual.

The whole situation is so sad and frustrating, to see these children emotionally abused and terrorized by her lies, raging, and neglect. BUT the WORST PART is ... .I grew up with a BPD mother and she alienated me from my father. I did not fully understand this until my mid 30s. I did have a relationship with my father but it was always tainted and undermined by my BPD mother. This is what I fear most for my H's children, that they will be forever alienated from their father.

[Panda39]

We currently have 50/50, but not in writing. (Original order, when a move-away was granted by court, was 30/70. The BPD moved 150 miles away for no reason, except to frustrate visitation. Kids were 4 and 6, when move-away was granted. BPD's parents facilitated, supported, and financed the move-away.) Met H after the children had been moved away. We have been together/married for 7 years.

So mom had 70% and dad had 30% for 8 of the last 10 years?  Did dad utilize his visitation?

Two years ago we moved to the city that BPD and children live in, and got verbal 50/50 visitation. The 50/50 has been in practice for two years, no issues. My H did not want to go to court to memorialize for fear the alienated children would choose to be with BPD 100%. Children are 14 and 16.

50/50 is good, the more time your husband has with his kids the better when Parental Alienation is going on.  It's good that mom is allowing the change.  You might want to keep track of when you have visitation with the kids (maybe just make a note on a calendar) just in case mom decides to change her mind and you need to go back to court.  That way you have a record of what has been the practice.  It would be pretty hard for mom to say dad is a horrible dad and shouldn't have 50/50 custody when she has already allowed it for 2 years... .but do document.

Both children have issues that are starting to come out, emotionally and academically. H has been trying for several years to get therapy, but BPD refuses. In our state it is law that both parents must provide permission for therapy. We are now pursuing relief from the court, which we do not like to do because the conflict is not good for the children. In addition, the BPD escalates and acts out, since they love conflict and drama.

This is really good, courts typically like therapy... .the courts are going to look at what is best for the children.  How is Therapy not good for the kids?  You and your husband might want to pick out say 3 Therapists that you like and have the names available when you go to court.  That way you have made the initial selection but you let mom pick one of the 3... .this way it looks fair to the court... .that you both are involved in the decision, but in fact you've picked out some good choices.  When selecting a Therapist, find Therapists that are familiar with BPD, talk with the kids Pediatrician, School Counselors etc.  You might start another thread here about selecting a therapist.

What has the school said in terms of the kids?  Have they suggested Therapy at all?  How have mom and dad been reacting to what school has had to say?

The older child is being parentified and is BPD's protector. The younger child throws the BPD 'under the bus' regularly. Both are being alienated. A sample of things said, "mom (BPD) says you're a hypocrite," "mom (BPD) blames you for everything, everything is your fault," "I hate you, and everyone in mom's (BPD) family hates you," "it's your fault I couldn't have a birthday party, mom (BPD) said you planned one, and she couldn't," "mom says xyz City is not our home, our home is where mom (BPD) lives." Alienation is also being done by the grandparents, fairly certain grandma is a BPD.

There is often a pattern of "Splitting" with a BPD Parent, one child is the "Golden Child" and the other child is the "Scapegoat".  My situation was the older daughter was the Golden Child, she was perfect, she was parentified... .was mom's best friend, caretaker, told adult things that were inappropriate for a 15 year old to have to hear and deal with, and was put in charge of caretaking her younger sister.  The younger daughter was the Scapegoat, she was blamed for things, excluded from the relationship between her mom and sister, in someways she was infantized (she was the baby and kept in that baby role), she basically got the message that she wasn't good enough.

Both roles are dysfunctional and damaging.  Splitting is tied to the Black and White thinking of the BPD Person.

More on Splitting
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

In terms of the mom says this, the mom says that stuff, I would ask the kids what they think, why do they think that, is that what they see, does that make sense to them etc.  Ask questions and where you can validate their feelings and answers.  Most likely at moms they have to agree with her or suffer the consequences... .with mom like the title of the book implies... .they are most likely "walking on eggshells".

I think I have a good relationship with the children, but it seems they are pulling away more now. I feel a hostility from the older child, but it could be personality and adolescence. Overall they are lovely and fun, we vacation together and go places together and enjoy our time. My H is very calm and understands it is a long game and only escalates when absolutely necessary (I wish he would do it more often). We see a couples therapist and also individual.

The whole situation is so sad and frustrating, to see these children emotionally abused and terrorized by her lies, raging, and neglect. BUT the WORST PART is ... .I grew up with a BPD mother and she alienated me from my father. I did not fully understand this until my mid 30s. I did have a relationship with my father but it was always tainted and undermined by my BPD mother. This is what I fear most for my H's children, that they will be forever alienated from their father.

I hear the Parental Alienation is particularly triggering for you and it makes complete sense, and it is also what makes you a particularly insightful person around what is going on with your husband and kids.  It's one of those things when the worst thing is also the best thing.  Just try to keep things in perspective and share your point of view with your husband.

Glad to hear you are doing therapy (together and individual) it will strengthen you both and your relationship... .keep that communication open between you and keep a untied front for the kids.

I've pulled a link to the Co-parenting board Lessons, lots of information, read whatever resonates... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.0

I'm glad you've joined us, you are not alone in what you are experiencing, this site and it's members is truly helpful in terms of tools, support, ideas, strategies, and sometimes just a place to vent when you need it.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

A sample of things said, "mom (BPD) says you're a hypocrite," "mom (BPD) blames you for everything, everything is your fault," "I hate you, and everyone in mom's (BPD) family hates you," "it's your fault I couldn't have a birthday party, mom (BPD) said you planned one, and she couldn't," "mom says xyz City is not our home, our home is where mom (BPD) lives."

Can you give an example of how your H responds to these kinds of statements from the kids? Maybe we can help you work out functional responses.

[LuauLady]

My H is very good with responses. For example, when SS said "I hate you... .", he hugged him and said "I love you." Did not respond at all to what the BPD had said.
With the "you're a hypocrite," this one was tough because it was "mom (BPD) and grandma said you are a hypocrite." My H calmly sat them down later and explained the situation that was being referenced and gave them the facts. He always says there may be two stories, but only one set of facts.
We are just now learning to say the things Panda39 suggests, how does that make you feel? what do you think about that? etc.

My question is, how much do you tell the kids? Our T doesn't think we should say much about the divorce and that their mom may have issues. I would like my H to talk to them more about what happened, what the BPD did, her volatile behavior... .because he is the only one who can really speak to it. I never interact with the BPD, except at graduations and sporting events, and at those times she is visibly hostile, and refuses to come near us.

With therapy our L has indicated court will want to see 3 names and BPD can choose one. We are in the beginning stages of filing a motion with the court. However, she is already 'coaching' children to say "I don't want therapy." She then prompts the children, "do you have anything else to say to your dad? and they parrot what she has coached them to say.

Both children have said multiple times to H that they want therapy. The BPD is most likely terrified the children will tell the therapist exactly what goes on with her and inside the home. We just want the children to have a safe place to talk about whatever is causing them anxiety and stress. Ya know, normal reason for people to seek therapy.

The BPD keeps claiming the children will be stigmatized by therapy. We know this is not true, but that is the BPDs argument. BPD claims "there is nothing wrong with them, they are normal," so she is the one actually stigmatizing them.

[Panda39]

My H is very good with responses. For example, when SS said "I hate you... .", he hugged him and said "I love you." Did not respond at all to what the BPD had said.
With the "you're a hypocrite," this one was tough because it was "mom (BPD) and grandma said you are a hypocrite." My H calmly sat them down later and explained the situation that was being referenced and gave them the facts. He always says there may be two stories, but only one set of facts.
We are just now learning to say the things Panda39 suggests, how does that make you feel? what do you think about that? etc.

The reason for asking questions helps the kids think and figure things out on their own.  There can also be opportunities to validate the kids feelings (which is probably not happening at mom's)

My question is, how much do you tell the kids? Our T doesn't think we should say much about the divorce and that their mom may have issues. I would like my H to talk to them more about what happened, what the BPD did, her volatile behavior... .because he is the only one who can really speak to it. I never interact with the BPD, except at graduations and sporting events, and at those times she is visibly hostile, and refuses to come near us.

I relate to you're wanting to tell the kids everything, I was much the same way... .Wow there is the giant elephant in the room mom is cray-cray!  Can't you kids see it?

But what would make us feel good is not what's best for the kids.  We don't suggest labeling mom with BPD, we suggest addressing behaviors instead.  Asking your kids questions like I mentioned above also comes into play, so they start figuring out things on their own.  The kids want to love both parents (that's why parental alienation is so damaging) by blaming mom you put the kids in the middle of an adult conflict that isn't theirs to deal with and puts them in a position to choose a parent. 

That said, I think dad can certainly say that something the kids say or do to him (as mom's mouth piece) hurts his feelings or upsets him etc.  Without blaming mom, this is between the kids and him. 

The BPD keeps claiming the children will be stigmatized by therapy. We know this is not true, but that is the BPDs argument. BPD claims "there is nothing wrong with them, they are normal," so she is the one actually stigmatizing them.

This sounds very much like projection.  She is projecting her feelings about therapy on to the kids.  Mom's with BPD often see their children as extensions of themselves.  She may have attempted Therapy herself and been stigmatized.

Panda39

[worriedStepmom]

It does sound like you and your H have a good relationship with the children and that you are doing your best for them.

My stepdaughter's uBPDmom is very triggered by me.  When H and I first married, SD was 4.  For several years, SD would wait until she and I were alone, and then say "My momma says <insert awful thing about me or H>."  I would very calmly ask her "What do you think about that?"  Sometimes she'd say she didn't agree.  Most of the time she'd say she didn't know.  Then I'd ask, "Do you want to know what I think?"  She pretty much always said yes, and I'd very calmly tell my side, usually starting with, "Your Mama probably does think/believe that.  I think ... ./ I saw ... ./ I remember ... ." 

I was really careful to never call her mom a liar.  At most, I'd use "Your mama might be confused."  After those 2 years, SD stopped initiating those conversations, even though I am positive her mom is still saying things like that to her on a weekly if not daily basis.  SD simply stopped paying attention to her mom's opinions about us because our actions had proven our integrity and our/my words had shown her it was okay for her to believe her eyes/perceptions/emotions without necessarily thinking bad thoughts about her mom.

If your husband can incorporate more of those validation statements "What do you think?"  "How does that make you feel?"  "Yep, I'm not surprised that your mom said that.  Do you want to talk about it?" - that will go a long way with the kids.

My SD is 11 now. She was 2 when her parents divorced.  H refused to talk to her about the divorce until this summer.   uBPDmom had a major dysregulation and tried to force SD into the intermediary in a colossally stupid fight she was trying to start with H.  H sat SD down the next week and asked how she felt about what had happened.  For the first time, SD told him the emotional reality of living with her mom and how much it bothered her.  At that point, he told her, simply, about the divorce - "your mom had some of those behaviors when we were married.  Sometimes she was okay, and sometimes she was not.  When the "was not" parts came out more often, I had to make a choice, and I decided that it would be better for you not to have to live with the "was not" parts all the time, that you needed a safe space.  I hoped she would get better and I'm sorry that it's gotten worse again and that you are being upset."

He has not, and does not intend, to go into details about how uBPDmom behaved during their marriage.  He mostly talks about "you know how your mom is" without going into details.

He got SD into therapy after that conversation.  uBPDmom has done everything in her limited power to stop it (other than going to court) or to poison SD against the therapist.  She is convinced that there are no problems, and, conversely, that the T will make sure SD is taken away from her forever.

On advice from people here, we watched a few movies with SD about people who have mental health issues.  What About Bob? sparked a bunch of discussions about how people who act crazy think they are perfectly normal, how other people may not see anything "bad" with scary behaviors, and how those behaviors can drive someone else crazy.  So did Mrs. Doubtfire - conversations about parental alienation (the mom's casual comments about the dad) and about parents being overly invested/making bad choices for a purportedly good end (the dad's behavior was off the deep end).

uBPDmom is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and she told that to SD, so we are able to talk about mental health as well - that there isn't a stigma, that there are ways to get help, and that sometimes disorders make your brain tell you stuff that isn't realistically true.