Moral idiocy in my uBPD/uNPD

[AskingWhy]

"Moral idiocy" in psychology is defined as "inability to understand moral principles and values and to act in accordance with them, apparently without impairment of the reasoning and intellectual faculties."  This concept had been around for more than 100 years. This seems to be part of BPD for certain.

"Psychiatrist Philippe Pinel’s 1801 description of manie sans délire, a condition which he characterized as outbursts of rage and violence (manie) in the absence of any symptoms of psychosis, such as delusions and hallucinations (délires).

Physician JC Prichard (1786-1848) coined the term "moral insanity" in 1835 to refer to a larger group of people who were characterized by "morbid perversion of the natural feelings, affections, inclinations, temper, habits, moral dispositions and natural impulses," but the term, probably considered too broad and non-specific, soon fell into disuse."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

In personality disorders, this is often discussed. Those in the Cluster B spectrum exhibit these characteristics.  pwPDs are often like very small children who don't yet have a sense of right of wrong or have the ability to make moral decisions.

For instance, my uBPD/uNPD has done several things that indicate this.

Not only does he rage (like a toddler) by shouting, breaking objects and furniture, he also exhibits a child's sense of the world.  

One of his friends died and the widow tasked H with selling her deceased husbands items, including a truck and car, fine clothing and jewellery (watches, too) and sports equipment.  It just so happened that my H sold some sports items to his daughter's boyfriend (whom H was enmeshing and wanting to impress.)  The young man bought a box of cameras and sporting items and found a gold watch in the box and told H about it.  Instead of going back to the widow and asking what she wanted to charge for the watch, H (wanting to curry favor with the young man who was dating his daughter) said, "Oh, you can keep it. Finders, keepers."  He deprived the widow of making some extra money in order to ingratiate himself to the young man who was dating his daughter.

H also wanted me to falsify documents so that one of his children could apply for a college scholarship.  I flatly refused.  I said, "Are you out of your mind?" and said it was wrong to do so.  H's reasoning was that everyone does things like this.  I was aghast.  The threat of punishment is enough to keep most people in line--those who have a real sense of right and wrong.  I am happy to say that more often than not H is law-abiding and not splitting on the idea of morality.  

Likewise, pwPDs abuse their spouses, children and pets, take illegal drugs, commit crimes and do other illegal and immoral things without thinking twice.  

[Cat Familiar]

This veers into sociopathy or Antisocial Personality Disorder. Those who have this variant of a PD have little concern for the feelings and needs of others, unless doing so has a direct benefit for them.

[sweetheart]

I’m wondering is there a question in your post that you would like some support with, how are things with you at the moment?

Does the definition and information you have posted help you in anyway toward understanding your h’s behaviours better?

I’m not a great one for labels, my h has lots of diagnoses inc BPD. I knew of these things when I first came to this forum, what helped me most was the process of disentangling myself from our relationship chaos, and owning my part of our daily dysfunction.
 Using the tools and skills suggested on these boards can work in any setting where communication has broken down, or is tricky.

I don’t like the term ‘moral idiocy’ it is for me demeaning, derogatory  and sounds like it belongs in the past. I wouldn’t choose to use it in relation to anyone, with BPD or otherwise. Thankfully we have moved on a lot in our use of terminology.

[AskingWhy]

I’m wondering is there a question in your post that you would like some support with, how are things with you at the moment?

Does the definition and information you have posted help you in anyway toward understanding your h’s behaviours better?

I’m not a great one for labels, my h has lots of diagnoses inc BPD. I knew of these things when I first came to this forum, what helped me most was the process of disentangling myself from our relationship chaos, and owning my part of our daily dysfunction.
 Using the tools and skills suggested on these boards can work in any setting where communication has broken down, or is tricky.

I don’t like the term ‘moral idiocy’ it is for me demeaning, derogatory  and sounds like it belongs in the past. I wouldn’t choose to use it in relation to anyone, with BPD or otherwise. Thankfully we have moved on a lot in our use of terminology.

Cat, thank you for the comment.  BPDs exhibit features of other PDs and mental illnesses at one point or another.  They can veer toward psychotic features, NPD or antisocial, or other combinations.  H, due to his lack of identity, will try desperately to fit in with others whose company he desires or to win the approval of his adult children.  It's like a clique of teens daring a "wanna-be" boy to steal a pack of cigarettes in order to be one of them.  

Sweetheart, the term"idiocy" in this sense is not derogatory.  You are correct that idiot, but also moron and imbecile, are indeed terms of the past, but they were clinical terms and are no longer in the clinical vocabulary.  These terms referred to intellectual and moral development.  The terms are also used to describe moral development, hence moral idiocy:  a person with the morals of a very young child up to four years of age.

My uNPD FIL is an elderly man with the morals of a child.  My MIL worked for many years as a dental receptionist and after her retirement, the dentist gave her and her husband free dental care knowing the elderly couple was having trouble making ends meet.  (FIL only worked at low skilled jobs all his life and use all the family income for his hobbies, saving nothing for his retirement.)  MIL has been dead for a number of years, and yet this dentist still gives free dental care to elderly FIL.  One time FIL had a free dental cleaning and some teeth filled, hundreds of dollars donated for free due to the good will of his wife's former employer.  FIL had no sense of appreciation for what this much younger professional man did for him, only smiling like a little boy who got away with cheating, bragging that he got so much dental care without having to pay for it.  

My H, at least, immediately told his F that he need to at least show his appreciation to the dentist and his staff by buying them all lunches.  H was acting like a father to his own F by giving him moral instruction. It's like a parent telling a small child who has received a gift, "Now what do we say?"

pwBPD are emotionally and often morally stunted people.  I try to keep this in mind with my H when he dysregulates.  It's hard and I try to keep the BPD in perspective.

For now, H is between cycling because he is concentrating on an important work project and concerned about one of his adult children having some minor surgery.  I am painted white/neutral for now.    

[jsgirl360]

Interesting post... .

I feel the term "moral idiocy" is very fitting. Even in the derogatory sense.  Ah, my burnout from BPD is shining through.

One thing I noticed with BPDh... .and also other BPD's I've encountered... .is that this "moral idiocy" only applies when evaluating themselves.  When they're judging others, they suddenly have a keen sense of right and wrong, and have no problem listing the transgressions of others... .even when they are committing the same exact acts!

The best example I can think of right now... .is my BPDh's adult son is out of work... .feigning an injury, while husband is doing the exact same thing. However, husband refers to his son as "lazy" with "no responsibility", "entitled ", etc. I don't see the difference at all. 

I agree that certain BPD's exhibit sociopathic tendencies.  My husband is very much a sociopath.  He actually doesn't have the ability to feel empathy or remorse.  These types of borderlines are more likely to have that "moral idiocy". However,  I believe there are borderlines out there that do have a sense of morality... .in the same way some experience psychosis, some don't.

I enjoyed the story of your FIL... .very entertaining... .and sad that someone so old never developed morals. It seems once a person is 50, all hope is gone.

An afterthought... .speaking of old clinical terms... .a local psychiatric hospital used to be called a "State Lunatic Asylum".

[WileyCoyote]

How about Moral Ignorance or Morally Ignorant?  

[AskingWhy]

Interesting post... .

I feel the term "moral idiocy" is very fitting. Even in the derogatory sense.  Ah, my burnout from BPD is shining through.

One thing I noticed with BPDh... .and also other BPD's I've encountered... .is that this "moral idiocy" only applies when evaluating themselves.  When they're judging others, they suddenly have a keen sense of right and wrong, and have no problem listing the transgressions of others... .even when they are committing the same exact acts!

The best example I can think of right now... .is my BPDh's adult son is out of work... .feigning an injury, while husband is doing the exact same thing. However, husband refers to his son as "lazy" with "no responsibility", "entitled ", etc. I don't see the difference at all. 

I agree that certain BPD's exhibit sociopathic tendencies.  My husband is very much a sociopath.  He actually doesn't have the ability to feel empathy or remorse.  These types of borderlines are more likely to have that "moral idiocy". However,  I believe there are borderlines out there that do have a sense of morality... .in the same way some experience psychosis, some don't.

I enjoyed the story of your FIL... .very entertaining... .and sad that someone so old never developed morals. It seems once a person is 50, all hope is gone.

An afterthought... .speaking of old clinical terms... .a local psychiatric hospital used to be called a "State Lunatic Asylum".

pwBPD have an amazing double standard when it comes to themselves or their children.  They can hurt you, call you names, break your spirit, but if you do the same thing (rage back, for instance) they go into another rage.  If someone does it to their children (again, them being extensions of the BPD), they also go into a rage, "How dare you do that to my son!"

[AskingWhy]

How about Moral Ignorance or Morally Ignorant?  

That would work!   

[flourdust]

he also exhibits a child's sense of the world. 

Likewise, pwPDs abuse their spouses, children and pets, take illegal drugs, commit crimes and do other illegal and immoral things without thinking twice. 

pwBPD are emotionally and often morally stunted people.

pwBPD have an amazing double standard when it comes to themselves or their children.

Honestly, all I see here is a lot of painting with a broad brush, using very dehumanizing language. You can feel superior to someone by making them less then human in your mind. Is this a healthy way to vent?

[AskingWhy]

Honestly, all I see here is a lot of painting with a broad brush, using very dehumanizing language. You can feel superior to someone by making them less then human in your mind. Is this a healthy way to vent?

Each of us comes here with a different experience of our pwBPD.  Each pwBPD is in some area of the spectrum, and sometimes with other PDs in the mix. Some partners are violent and break the law (sociopathic tendencies) and some are very functional.  Some partners are not so functional, have been institutionalized, perhaps made suicide attempts and may have schizotypal features.  

No two members have the same experiences and no two BPD partners are the same.

My H is uBPD/uNPD, and so my perspective might be different someone else's.

That said, I am only expressing my opinion on my experiences.  I am not painting with a broad brush because I can only express my perceptions and not anyone else's.

This thread was started with a historical perspective on BPD.  If anyone takes offense to what was perceived in early psychiatric history, I suggest this thread be deleted.  

It is a scientific fact (in psychiatry) that BPDs function on an emotionally child-like level.  That is not my making a personal judgement, but the opinion of professionals in the counseling and psychiatric field.

Object relations are a known part of early child development (also known as object permanence) and splitting, a form of object relation functioning, are a known feature of BPD behavior.  In fact, it's a diagnostic criterion.

[AskingWhy]

Christiane Northrup, M.D. who wrote the book "Dodging Energy Vampires," a book for targets and partners of those in the Cluster B spectrum, discusses the normal "righteous anger" at the effects of being in contact with Cluster B  individuals.

This anger is normal and can be a part of healing and moving on. We can't always SET or choose to SET, nor do we always have to practice SET with endless empathy.  To expect that is to paint all partners with the same brush.  No one is obligated to SET, nor tolerate the abuse from our BPD partners.  Abuse is abuse whether it comes from someone who is diagnosed with BPD or who is uBPD, or in any other area of pathology.

The truth is that pwBPD do have object relations problems, and that is a main root of their difficulties.  

I am not "looking down" on my partner, but simply reacting to his actions of splitting, which includes gaslighting, violence (throwing objects, punching holes in walls, etc.), silent treatment and withholding affection.  I am disapproving of his actions.

I have a right to be angry with the hurtful behavior of my partner. Again, this is just me and my choice.

Each of us is different, just as our partners with BPD are.  We are not all able to, nor obligated to, respond with SET or anything else.

[Cat Familiar]

I can see that you've been learning an incredible amount about personality disorders, AskingWhy. I think what sweetheart and flourdust may have been getting at is asking how that information is making a difference in your relationship? I'd like to know as well.

Cat

[flourdust]

Each of us comes here with a different experience of our pwBPD.  Each pwBPD is in some area of the spectrum, and sometimes with other PDs in the mix. Some partners are violent and break the law (sociopathic tendencies) and some are very functional.  Some partners are not so functional, have been institutionalized, perhaps made suicide attempts and may have schizotypal features.  

No two members have the same experiences and no two BPD partners are the same.

Yes, indeed. That's why it's unhelpful to write sweeping generalizations about "them."

Be careful about giving credit to sources that are very old, are excessively flattering, or based on illegitimate claims of expertise. Northrup is an OB/GYN. She's not trained in psychiatry or psychology. She uses charged and unprofessional language and terminology.

[AskingWhy]

Yes, indeed. That's why it's unhelpful to write sweeping generalizations about "them."

Be careful about giving credit to sources that are very old, are excessively flattering, or based on illegitimate claims of expertise. Northrup is an OB/GYN. She's not trained in psychiatry or psychology. She uses charged and unprofessional language and terminology.

Flourdust, I think Dr. Northrup makes some great points about Cluster B disorders in her book.  Yes, she is an OB GYN by traiining, but that does not mean she can't make observations on disorders not in her specialty.   Her book is aimed at understanding Cluster B disorders geared for the general population using non-clinical language.  

Family doctors and internists routinely diagnose and treat disorders like diabetes and thyroid imbalances even though they are not endocrinologists, and family doctors can treat sprains and bone breaks even though they are not orthopedists.  Family doctors routinely prescribe contraceptives even though they are not OB GYNs.  In fact, many doctors from a wide variety of specialties examine the psychosocial health of each of their patients.  Modern medical training recommends this holistic approach.  In more extreme case, specialty referrals are made.

That said, each and every one of us on this site knows (or should know) the diagnostic criteria for BPD.  When our family members or partners have not been "officially" diagnosed or have refused psychiatric care, we use "uBPD" in our discussions.

I stated at the beginning of my post that these obsolete terms are from medical history, and only wanted to point out that object relations (an important part of child development) that are at the root of splitting in BPD were known back then.  I made no sweeping generalizations.  I do not personally use those terms.

Cat, going forward, I know my H is operating on a very primal emotional level. It's hard not to take his tantrums/dysregulations personally, but I try to detach myself as much as possible when he does.  That is my current strategy.


 

[Cat Familiar]

I know my H is operating on a very primal emotional level. It's hard not to take his tantrums/dysregulations personally, but I try to detach myself as much as possible when he does.  That is my current strategy.

It's certainly a rewarding skill to learn not to take it personally, much easier said than done. As I get better at doing that, I'm no longer fanning the flames of dysregulation and the conflagration usually dies out shortly.

But still it's icky to be a witness to it. Thankfully it seldom happens very often, probably because I'm no longer throwing the verbal equivalent of crumpled newspaper, sticks, lighter fluid and logs into the fire.

I'm sure on my husband's side, not having that assistance, it takes so much more energy to do it all himself that it's no longer worthwhile.

[AskingWhy]

It's certainly a rewarding skill to learn not to take it personally, much easier said than done. As I get better at doing that, I'm no longer fanning the flames of dysregulation and the conflagration usually dies out shortly.

But still it's icky to be a witness to it. Thankfully it seldom happens very often, probably because I'm no longer throwing the verbal equivalent of crumpled newspaper, sticks, lighter fluid and logs into the fire.

I'm sure on my husband's side, not having that assistance, it takes so much more energy to do it all himself that it's no longer worthwhile.

Cat, I, too, have finally found that not taking things personally is helpful.  This is hard especially when H treats his children like sacred cows (they use emotional blackmail and silent to get him to open his wallet) while you are alongside him trying to help him, and you get the dregs.

One tool I have used for his name calling is to own the word myself.  H called me b**** and c*** for years and it was painful until I own those terms in reference to myself.  It really took the power out of those words for him to hear me say them without flinching in reference to myself.

That said, I am getting very, very tired of all these tools.  One day I may wake up and say, "Enough is enough."  I will them leave the relationship without looking back.  In "The Essential Family Guide" Randi Kreger talks about the role partners and nons play in the dysfunction.  I freely admit that. 

[formflier]

I freely admit that. 

Can you be more specific?

FF

[AskingWhy]

Can you be more specific?

FF

I am an enabler.  I stay in the relationship after each dysregulation and reinforce H that it's OK to do this.  What I should do its myself threaten divorce and then have him served if H oversteps those boundaries.

[formflier]

I am an enabler.  I stay in the relationship after each dysregulation and reinforce H that it's OK to do this.  What I should do its myself threaten divorce and then have him served if H oversteps those boundaries.

Interesting... .what do you think threatening would do? Doesn't that seem like a BPDish tactic... .to threaten this that and the other?

Let's talk about boundaries!

I'm interested in your thoughts after you read this article about boundaries. 

FF

[AskingWhy]

Interesting... .what do you think threatening would do? Doesn't that seem like a BPDish tactic... .to threaten this that and the other?

Let's talk about boundaries!

I'm interested in your thoughts after you read this article about boundaries.  

FF

FF, thank you for the link.  If I have to resort to divorce "threats" to my husband, it will be because I have reached the end of my rope and filing for divorce is imminent.  

Then this link will be more informative: 

www.https://bpdfamily.org/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html

I am getting closer and closer to just calling it quits.  My self-esteem is higher than ever in the marriage and I can see living without my uBPD/uNPD H.

[formflier]

Thanks for the link... .

Perhaps I missed it... did the article talk about using threats?

FF

[AskingWhy]

Thanks for the link... .

Perhaps I missed it... did the article talk about using threats?

FF

FF, I guess what I mean is not a threat--simply mentioning I am leaving... and then doing it.

Then again, Billy Eddy does not recommend telling one's spouse you are leaving.  He recommends getting all of the affairs in order first and having a safety plan before having the spouse served.

[formflier]

Exactly... .Eddy is on the money.

Big picture question.  Do pwBPD "listen" to words of their partners or to action?

Take something much more minor.  How many people have "talked" their pwBPD out of haranguing them over various issues and had that work, vice people that walk away from the crazy and don't listen.

Which person has less crazy "go into" their ear... .and then their brain?

FF