My ex was creating a situation that cut off all reasonable avenues to flight school for D17.

[borderlinesand]

Hi all.

I divorced my children's mother in 2008 and it was at that point that she suddenly shifted into an entirely unknown personality... .not a friendly one at that.

I am a single father of two older teens.  Been single for about all of these last 10 years.  I've been through it all with my children's mother who has Borderline Personality Disorder... .but she also seems to have some kind of complications with schizophrenia.  She literally doesn't remember the things that she does to them and the levels of disassociation from her actions just can't be explained any other way.  

Our (me and my children's) huge storming days are over.  Now that the kids are older we are mostly just picking up the pieces and beginning to realize that we are largely free of her ability to manipulate our lives.  All I can say is that the end of shared custody with a BPD is a wondrous thing - if you can make it to the finish line.  Some day your kids will be 18 and free and it's that day that you have to work towards.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi borderlinesand, 

Welcome to our online family. I'm very glad you've joined us. Sounds like it been tumultuous for you and your children. So many of us adults here have been through the trauma of having a parent with BPD. I'm sure Panda39 will pop by and be able to compare notes with you as she has step children about the same age as yours.

How did you learn about this site? Does your ex have a diagnosis of BPD? Regardless of whether or not she does, you've certainly walked through the behaviours enough to know.

It's not at all uncommon for a pwBPD to show many other traits along with BPD. Have you read the most recent version of I Hate You Don't Leave Me? There is a great chart in it that shows the co mlrbidities that frequently accompany Borderlines. That's why it is known as borderline, because the disorder borders the edges of many others.

Thank you for posting!
Wools

[Snoopy737]

Hi Sandwich guy

I'm also a middle age guy, but with a sister with uBPD and a mother who has some of the same traits, but not as much as sis.

Your story really made an impression on me. I guess I could see myself in your situation, because I know the BPD traits from mom and sis, and because I have a very good friend who married "the wrong" woman (we all - his male friends - could see this and warned him in a polite way before), and now where his to kids are teens, he finally got out of it with divorce. He looks so happy now. Just his portrait on facebook, he lost 40 lbs and he is so ready to live the life he couldn't do for the last 15 years. He's a realyy social and happy guy, but he was so controlled by his wife. She was jealous, so he couldn't go out and speak with other women at all, and we're not talking about flirting, just normal socializing like you would do with your colleagues at your work.

I have also not been dating for 10 years now, and after really intense therapy after a major break down where I had been trying to "fix" my family and make everyone happy and good friends again, I'm finally on a road, where I wanna do stuff for myself - not for others. Now I can see that most of my lost confidence in myself was bacause of sisters never ending blaming. I could easily see that she was ill, but that just made me take even more from her, because I felt, she was the ill one and that I should take it then because far down it probably wasn't personally. It was also because of a Eating Disorder-hotline I consulted, and they often told me, that I just should be nice to my sister and ignore her blaming, because it was the eating disorder controlling her like a 'monster'. So I did that, and the only result was, that the more confidence I lost, the more cruel and disrespectful my sister became towards me.

When I broke down, finally a therapist told me, that she thought my sisters behaviour sounded exactly like BPD, and then I read the 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and the puzzle was solved in only about one day.  Almost every behaviour in the book matched my sisters behaviour, and finally I dared standing up for myself.

It's really good to hear that you probably came to that conclusion sooner than me(?) because I had to meet several nice woman at the hospital who told me, I was a really nice and attractive guy and they didn't think I did anything wrong to them - quite the contrary. Actually that made me believe in myself again, and now I'm starting to get into shape again, both physical but also starting to look for dates.

I just wondered. Your long time without dating, was that also because of your childrens mother? That she had discouraged you in some way?

I'm just curious, because right now I really can't understand, that I believed my sister was right in all her blaming, and that I ate it all and almost asked for seconds.

I would be really interesting hearing what you're planning to do for yourself now, and you with your children when the will be 18. Have you any exciting plans to look forward too. And when do you think you'll be ready to meet new women?

Thanks so much again for your story, all best, Snoopy

[Skip]

My daughter has been given a full ride scholarship to attend ground school and flight school to achieve her Private Pilot’s License.  She is 17.  It’s a really big deal but especially because I lack the funds to ever dream of sending her down this path on my own.  A friend of mine who is a local pilot has taken my daughter for flight lessons (off the books) for nearly 2 years but now says he has taught her all he can and that she is a natural flyer, an amazing pilot…and of vintage aircraft no less.

From her mom’s house, 3 days before flight school starts, she calls me in tears.

Her: Papa, I am sorry, but I just can’t do it. Me: Kiddo, you don’t have to apologize.  I totally understand the pressure you are under. Her: It’s just that between the two households, there is too much disagreement. Me: Well, I will say that that’s not accurate kiddo.  It truly is clearly cut that your mother not supporting you and not taking you to the class…honey, come on…that is clearly where this trouble starts.  I am telling you that pretty much 100% of parents would be proud to take their daughter to a fully paid scholarship to learn how to fly planes.  Why your mother won’t take you doesn’t have to do with anyone except for her.  It’s her issue and we are the one’s that unfortunately have to deal with her issue. Her: I don’t know about all that…she made me another offer which was actually pretty nice of her. Me: Oh?  What was that? Her: I asked her again if she would take me to the lessons and if not if she would stay up and wait for me to come home from them. Me: Okay… Her: And she said that she had a new solution to the whole thing.  She said that I should just stay out and not come home.  She said that I should spend those flight school nights at your house…and that she’d just see me the next day.

So what I could have said is “Honey…so instead of taking you, instead of just staying up an extra hour to see you, she is saying she wants you to spend the night at her sworn enemy’s home?”  If my daughter had said yes to this offer of her mom’s, it would have meant the end of their relationship.  My ex was creating a situation that cut off all reasonable avenues to flight school.  No to driving her.  No to staying up.  But YES to being with me more?

This turnabout was profound.  Her mother has done everything to keep my daughter away from me.  So to offer this wasn’t an offer but LOOKS like one.  It looks like peace. It looks like friendliness.  So why was my daughter crying about it?  AT least she could see through the haze enough to see the offer for what it was…just another manipulation. A mutation of kindness.  A knife happy schadenfreude invention.  A poison cookie recipe.  I hate her sometimes.  If it wasn’t for how much she is obviously not even a whole person to hate…I would be filled with hate at all times.

It's really an unfortunate situation.

Curious. How does you daughter split time between the households? How often is flight school?

[Harley Quinn]

I'd like to join the others in welcoming you to the site.  Thanks for sharing about your family.  

You mentioned about your exwife's memory of her actions being lacking at times.  This is something I experienced with my dBPDexbf, most prominently when he was emotionally dysregulated.  This can be a factor with a pwBPD who's emotions are extreme.  Do you find that this is the case with your ex wife or does it also apply in calmer times?

Our (me and my children's) huge storming days are over.  Now that the kids are older we are mostly just picking up the pieces and beginning to realize that we are largely free of her ability to manipulate our lives.  

It's great to hear that things are becoming easier for yourself and your older teens.  In what ways are you all working on putting the pieces back together at present?  Do they still see their mother and have contact with her?

All I can say is that the end of shared custody with a BPD is a wondrous thing - if you can make it to the finish line.  Some day your kids will be 18 and free and it's that day that you have to work towards.

I'm wondering about the impact you feel that your children have experienced due to the relationship between yourself and your ex wife, or directly as a result of your ex wife's behaviours.  My S4's father and I parallel parent these days as it is better for my wellbeing to keep a healthy distance between us.  We only communicate about essential information and otherwise are not involved in one another's lives.  If you could have done anything differently during the process of co parenting, what do you think it might have been?

Love and light x

[livednlearned]

Our (me and my children's) huge storming days are over.  Now that the kids are older we are mostly just picking up the pieces and beginning to realize that we are largely free of her ability to manipulate our lives.

What was the storming like, and what does it mean for it to be over?

Recovery is often different for us than it is for the kids. It's all they've known, whereas we have some context (age, experience).

Have you and/or the kids had any counseling to help them make sense of their experiences?

[borderlinesand]

HI all.  To be honest, I am totally new to this message board format.  I thought I might post here and maybe, perhaps... .someone would read it someday?  I didn't think that I would have people writing and actually asking such thoughtful questions, as well as sharing some of their own experiences.

Also, I don't know how to reply to each individual response separately. I only saw the REPLY button way down at the bottom of the thread.  So I don't know if folks who asked the questions will even see my response here.  

At this stage of things my kids and I  are very much in the phase of coming to the end of legally being bound to my ex, their mom.  After living like this for a decade we are at different stages.  My son is 21 and has no real contact with his mother. That's been going on for 3 years now.  He confronted her 3 years ago about the past, about her behaviors, he begged her for an explanation and for understanding and her literal response was "I won't talk about the past and everything your father says is a lie".  And then he packed his bags. She quit speaking to him after that, with occasional random and disjointed invitations to have lunch... .about twice a year.

For me I am at the point where the 7 on/7 off schedule with my daughter is coming to an end.  In less then a year this umbrella we've been living under will finally fold up.  My daughter goes to that house and comes back a mess.  She is at my home long enough to level out, to feel loved again, to feel sane again, to begin to feel normal again... .and then it's right back to her pretend mom's house.  I say that literally.  For us, we don't experience my ex as their mother.  She is literally a totally different being.  Different body language, different belief structures, different morals.  It's been more like a schizophrenic episode where a different personality took over and then it never switched back... .oh and the new personality has strong BPD tendencies.  

 I am absolutely single and have been because of this situation.  My mantra for my children has always been "who do they need me to be?"  And in the beginning that was to try to be friends with their mom... .because they were still living with her half the time.  Then as they grew up they needed to know that I knew something was terribly wrong. They needed me to no longer pretend their mom was just someone having a hard time being kind.  We are now in a place where they need me to be completely transparent in my assessment of things, to not shy away from the insanity we've all been exposed to.

My daughter who is 17 needs this reality though where I am open about things, but she still doesn't/isn't capable of facing it herself.  She knows what's what... .but she can't live what's what. Not yet.  But it's coming.  Under my roof we talk about objective truth a LOT.  I have taught my children over and over that knowing the truth of a situation is critical.

So needs have changed over the years.  Our situation "might" be unique in terms of catching things early.  When I say that my ex was a good and kind person before her breakdown, I truly mean that.  She was the best kind of mom I could imagine a child having.  She was my best friend and a damn fine person.  We were together for 16 years.  During 2003-2008 she became more and more depressed though in her own life.  Nothing seemed to help.  She felt lost and aimless.  She tried many things. Nothing worked.  Finally I realized that half the problem was that she really didn't like being with me in a romantic way any longer.  When I began the divorce process I thought it would actually make her freer to pursue a more satisfying life and we'd be solid coparents.  But instead she ended up becoming involved with a married man... .and then her whole world fell apart. She had a breakdown in our driveway, in front of me and the kids.  It was like watching someone die.  Something took her place.  That's the best way I can describe it.  So it still did take me about about 4 months to really get that I was dealing with someone completely unlike the woman I'd known... .and it took me about 2 years to really begin to effectively navigate how to have boundaries that would keep the impact from her insanity away from my home.

I don't speak to her-ever.  We still have to text about once a month. One line only.  It's about logistics for insurance.  I haven't spoken to her directly for nearly 6 years or more now.  Sadly, not speaking with or interacting with her was the best thing I ever did.  It also helped role model to my children that you can love someone and wish them well... .but it doesn't mean you trust them or let them into your world.  A hard lesson but one they must master if they are to have any kind of life away from their mom.

What I meant about the storm being over is that in early years, when the kids were younger, they were used-daily-weekly-against me.  They bore the brunt of everything. It was so bad that I even considered leaving them and moving away... .just so that my ex would quit hurting them through manipulations.  I figured that if I was out the picture, she'd stop.  And I even picked places to live.  But when I looked at how the law views men, in particular, who move away from their children, I would end up giving all rights to see them. My state is backwards big time when it comes to father's rights.  Now we are all older and wiser.  Now my son is free. He is happier than he ever has been... .the hugest helps have been terminating connections with his "mom", and seeing his amazing therapist, and reading the book, "Surviving the Borderline Parent".  

I have never seen a therapist... .well at least not in the last 8 years.  By and large I could never find one that could come close to understanding this situation.  I have a best friend though, and his ex-wife is just as bad, if not worse, than mine.  So we have been able to support one another weekly for the last 8 years.  It's been a lifesaver.  Therapists though have just not been able to keep up with what this all means.  They mean well, but come on... .it all sounds like fiction to them.  I get that.  They don't believe what I tell them. Especially when I tell them that my ex is a current Professor at a major university who teaches therapists how to be good ones... .once I tell them that, I can tell I've lost credibility.

Someone asked if I would have done anything differently.  When I look back on the last 10 years the only thing I see is a miracle that my kids aren't on drugs, suicidal, acting out in some violent way.  I feel the same way about myself.  I'm a recovering alcoholic and man... .the chances that I didn't start drinking again during this trial are too hard to calculate.  I should be in a ditch sleeping it off right about now.  Somehow, despite the damage done to us three, we are still all looking forward towards life and being in the world.  If anything my ex's behavior has driven us to make sure that we never treat any single other person in the way that we have been treated.  We also see that the world creates BPD. The ways that we live influence people towards losing themselves. I see it as a symptom of how off track we have become as a species and as a culture.  These folks are the casualties in some fashion.  That's my take on it.  Before her breakdown, we had many talks about the end of our marriage.  And during those talks she spoke a lot about wanting to understand herself more, to seek knowledge, to find joy again, but she felt like she just couldn't find the right circumstances or support.  I think it's too easy in our culture to become lost.  To me, that's where the real answers to BPD causes are.

Thanks!

[ForeverDad]

Yes, we read posts from many people and yes we can be peer support if not also help in so many ways.  We are an active community who have "been there, done that".  We've received peer support, education, helpful strategies and much more.  Many here are now paying it forward to the ones arriving after us.

At this stage of things my kids and I  are very much in the phase of coming to the end of legally being bound to my ex, their mom.

It has often been said, the older teens can "vote with their feet" and the courts can do little about it.  What if your daughter said, Okay, I'll do it.  Does she have the stamina and boundaries to withstand any resulting storm.  What I'm saying is that after years of complying with court orders — astounding how we are so willing to be overly fair and follow orders despite all we've suffered — what is a court likely to do in the final months?  That's a legal question, one we non-lawyer types can't address.  But practically speaking, maybe it's time for D17 to ponder ex's solution... .if she can handle the blow back.

Then as they grew up they needed to know that I knew something was terribly wrong. They needed me to no longer pretend their mom was just someone having a hard time being kind.  We are now in a place where they need me to be completely transparent in my assessment of things, to not shy away from the insanity we've all been exposed to.

This is validation.  Our children need their observations and conclusions validated.  Sometimes they need guidance, sometimes just confirmation.  Thankfully you've been there for your kids all these years.  Your stable and healthy example will aid them to make better life choices when seeking their adult relationships.

Clearly, in all these years your ex has shown no sign of being willing to change.  Accept that.  As long as she refuses therapy and Denies her part in the problems, she will not improve.

When I say that my ex was a good and kind person before her breakdown, I truly mean that.  She was the best kind of mom I could imagine a child having.  She was my best friend and a damn fine person.  We were together for 16 years... .

My ex too was a good and kind person, in the early years.  But over the years she let an assortment of 'traumas' send her down the disordered path.  At the time I was clueless about Borderline or Paranoid PDs.  I made the mistake of hoping that having a child would make her happy.  It did the opposite, she started reliving her abused childhood through him.  She started imagining anyone and everyone was "probably" an abuser, in time, even me.  (So having children instead made ending the marriage vastly more complicated, expensive and distressing.)  I was unable to divert her back to reality and my marriage imploded.  Today, over a decade and many allegations later, she still tells me she hates me.  Nothing I can do about that.

I have never seen a therapist... .well at least not in the last 8 years.

Courts love counseling, whether for the parents or for the children.  Even if the counselors don't get every nuance, don't you think your children would benefit from counseling?  And if it's too much for the counselor, then surely they ought to know someone more experienced?  Just throwing out ideas... .

[livednlearned]

Her: It’s just that between the two households, there is too much disagreement.

Me: Well, I will say that that’s not accurate kiddo.  It truly is clearly cut that your mother not supporting you and not taking you to the class…honey, come on…that is clearly where this trouble starts.  I am telling you that pretty much 100% of parents would be proud to take their daughter to a fully paid scholarship to learn how to fly planes.  Why your mother won’t take you doesn’t have to do with anyone except for her.  It’s her issue and we are the one’s that unfortunately have to deal with her issue.

It seems like your daughter might have a rougher time with the family dynamic than your son. Is that your sense?

[borderlinesand]

Livednlearned,
My ex split on my son. Things were "good" between them over at that house... .and by that I just mean that she was manipulating them all the time but still trying to keep them both close by her side and totally against me.

One day my son just came out and said he wanted to know my version of everything. Every. Thing.  What happened, who did what... .etc.

 He was 16 at the time.  I told him.  He sat with it for an entire year of continued shared custody. He would make inquiries here and there to get his mom's version of the past but nothing too in depth.  She began splitting him off from his sister at that point.  Over the year or so she began making fun of him, demoting him, mocking him.

Then he went away for a summer camp. While he was gone for those 3 weeks it was his first time being outside of the horrible dynamics.  When he came home he confronted her and basically said that in order to stay there he needed an honest up front accounting of why she handled herself the way that she did during and after the divorce.  Based on her responses, which sounded as lame as they were... .he moved out.  It was hard for him to leave his sister there.

That's the awful part really for my daughter.  She was then left there on her own but my son was in self preservation mode and honestly needed to get out of there since he was becoming the target.  He talked to his sister about it first.  We all labored over his decision first... then he did it.

But for my daughter it meant that her mother's full attention and manipulations were now on her. She is having a much harder time because she is on her own there while she is there.  But what is good is that when she is here at her real home... the safe home... she has her brother to talk to. And since he is out of the line of fire now and knows not to trust his mother any longer, she can benefit from his perceptions. After all, they are the only two people on the planet who share the same history with the same "mom".

[livednlearned]

It's nice that they have each other. You must be relieved about that.

Are you looking for specific skills to support her? You have done a lot to explain to her the objective truth -- that's similar to Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison message, that it's bad to put kids in the middle, but when a disordered parent does it, the other parent may have to engage in order to salvage something from the wreckage.

There are other skills, like validation, that do more to repair the emotional injuries. Those are the injuries that can last indefinitely.

I have a S17 (uBPD/bipolar father) and 3 steps kids, SS19, SD21, SD23 (uBPD mother), and the emotional psychological fall-out is profound.

The real test of emotional health is how they do in interpersonal relationships. They are all struggling in different ways.

[Skip]

How often is flight school?

Is you daughter able to participate on your weeks? Is she still in this?

[worriedStepmom]

Kudos to you for staying on the wagon, and for your son for being strong enough to weigh all sides and take steps to essentially save himself.

Will your daughter see a therapist?  It sounds as if your son's therapist has helped him - maybe D can go see the same one?

My H put SD11 in therapy this spring, and it is really helping her.   The therapist told me that SD really craves a relationship with her mom, but it will always be completely toxic.  All we can do is give her the skills to deal with the crazy and hurtful behaviors.  It sounds like you are doing that with your daughter as much as you can.

Any time my SD pushes back on mom or tries to set a boundary, mom comes down hard with emotional threats in order to make SD grovel about how much SD loves mom and how much SD wants to go see mom.  Last week SD got fed up and called her mom's bluff.  When mom said "Maybe you should stay with dad this weekend", SD said (for the first time ever) "okay, that sounds like a good plan".  Mom pushed another button that usually works - "I'm going to call your dad" (mom usually dysregulates when she talks to dad, so SD is afraid to have her parents talk to each other).  SD said "Okay, you're a grownup, that's your choice.  I'm a kid, it's not my job to tell you whether or not to do something."

Mom has been on her best behavior around SD for the 6 days since then (and has even refrained from text-bombing my H). 

Has your D ever stood up to her mom in that way?  Called her bluff when mom puts one of these false choices in front of her? 

[borderlinesand]

Like most programs or classes, Flight School is every week.  The way it has worked is this, if I am the one the one to sign up my kids for something that they want to do, then my Ex will resist taking them on the weeks when they were at her home.  In some cases she literally just won't take them-as with Flight School. And so they have missed out on a lot of wonderful opportunities and classes after school.  My ex, I believe, perceived that if the kids were at a class after school, then that was me, taking away her time with them.  Her overriding mantra, after her breakdown, was that I was trying to take her children from her. So most of her behaviors stem from that core illusion.

My son is free on this now since he moved out at 17 years old from her house.

My daughter is still very much afraid to admit her mother does this. 

LivedNLearned-no I am actually not seeking support any longer about how to deal with things.  I have to be honest and say that after 10 years of dealing with this and juggling 3 jobs and being single the whole time that I feel that though I am just about dead on my feet that I feel really good about what I've done and how it's turned out, given the circumstances.

I do like to read though, now and then, about how it's been for others.  Knowing you aren't the only one who has been through this is always good to know.  So, in that sense it's supportive of what I've been through.

My daughter is definitely not ready to stand up to her mom.  When my son did so, my ex pretty much excommunicated him and quit talking to him. There was no argument to be had.  She just stopped interacting with him.  True to her nature though, she did manage to make sure she told him that the lack of communication was completely his fault. So in her mind, he is the one that cut her off.

My daughter has tried therapy over and over again.  4 different therapists over the last 10 years.  My son has had the same one since 6th grade.  He is now 21 years old and still sees him now and then.

The difference is that my son's therapist was a bit of an anomaly.  His rules are this: if bring your child to me to treat, I will not discuss any aspect of therapy with you.  Unless your child is a danger to themselves or others, what we discuss is off limits to the parents.

To me this seemed strange.  I was very suspicious at first.  But it was a miracle!  My ex was effectively unable to do to my son's therapy, what she did do to my daughter's therapy.  Here's what she did... .

My ex is a therapist. She's not just a therapist. She teaches at a prestigious university where she trains therapists.  She works with a ton of local people and has clout.  What she has done with each therapist for my daughter is to go in and meet with the therapist on her own, as a colleague. She gets them in her confidence and basically she directs the therapist.  I realize how crazy that sounds or how unlikely. But my ex can be very charismatic and charming.  My daughter has reported me with each therapist when they say things to her like "well... .your mother mentioned that your father does... ."  And so there it is.  The last therapist my daughter had literally told my daughter that "your mother and I have discussed this and we both feel that you actually have worked everything out and that you don't need any more therapy."

As hard to believe as that is, that's what happened.  My daughter, at least, was paying attention.  She saw what happened and she knew it was wrong. She still couldn't face her mom on it and pretends like it never happened.  But what she's doing now is refusing to see a therapist again.  I support that 100%.  Why?  Some of you who have been at this longer know why is my guess.

When a person is under the age of 18 their parents reserve the legal right to speak to their therapist about how it is going.  Furthermore, one cannot initiate therapy in my state without the consent of both parents... .in a shared custody situation.  So I cannot find a dedicated therapist for every other week that her mother can't get ahold of and control.  I have advised my daughter to seek therapy as soon as she is 18 years old... .when her mother finally can't even know the name of her therapist.  I can't wait for that moment.  Can't happen too soon.

As for why my ex allowed the "no parents" policy of my son's therapist?  Looking back I can see that early on she chose my daughter as her favorite. And she was always in the process of forgetting her son.  To put it bluntly... .she didn't care as much about controlling him because she hadn't concluded that he was worth controlling.  My daughter was her pick.

My son's therapy really changed his life and the privacy cocoon in which his therapy happened was miraculous.

[livednlearned]

It must be a big burden for your daughter to think she could be cut off from her mom.