On the edge of making the big "D" decision

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all, for those who've been following my story we have seen some calming down at home since my wife went back to work. She is very fulfilled and her happiness has enabled some big improvements on her part.

She takes her medication regularly and has had a minimal of disordered episodes (towards me) recently. She has demonstrated the ability to show patience in stressful or unfair situations (like kids getting hurt while she's on her way out to gym trainer session), and has been able to listen to my concerns without losing her temper or dysregulating. 

Ironically, this improvement in communication has enabled a more candid conversation about divorce. I can own up to mistakes I made out of the context of her BPD, and she acknowledges a failed relationship isn't one sided. We were talking recently and she said divorce has been on her mind and she doesn't feel the worth in this relationship anymore. To be honest, neither do I. The fact that she could offer the possibility of peacefully and amicably separating filled me with hope.

Here come the buts. 

She is still not well, and what appears like a peaceful possibility could still go south big time. I feel no matter what she will still veer towards chaos and I will be always be drawn into that chaos. Some recent examples:

- Screamed at our son's kindergarten teacher on the phone for close to an hour over nothing, really nothing. I had to apologize the next morning to keep our relationship with the school.

- Really inappropriate behavior at work that scares me with how unprofessional she's behaving. She's a vocational HS teacher and she had dinner with a 17 yr old male student who invited her on the way home from school. Even though it was innocent if they had been seen... .Yesterday she told me she took away the same student's phone when he misbehaved, then read through his private texts and sent his girlfriend a message saying "I love you". This is seriously not OK. Even if she isn't fired from this very safe government job, someone's parents might sue her (us).

So on the one hand I am trying to make this very difficult life decision and on the other trying to do some contingency planning if her life explodes at some point and we are in the wake. I can't take responsibility for her, but with two kids we really need the two incomes together or not.

It would be wonderful to have everyone's feedback as I navigate my way through this very difficult decision. Thank you.

~RolandOfEld

Incidentally, I believe today is the one year anniversary of the day I discovered my wife's BPD. It's been quite a year to say the least.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, for those who've been following my story we have seen some calming down at home since my wife went back to work. She is very fulfilled and her happiness has enabled some big improvements on her part.

She takes her medication regularly and has had a minimal of disordered episodes (towards me) recently. She has demonstrated the ability to show patience in stressful or unfair situations (like kids getting hurt while she's on her way out to gym trainer session), and has been able to listen to my concerns without losing her temper or dysregulating. 

Ironically, this improvement in communication has enabled a more candid conversation about divorce. I can own up to mistakes I made out of the context of her BPD, and she acknowledges a failed relationship isn't one sided. We were talking recently and she said divorce has been on her mind and she doesn't feel the worth in this relationship anymore. To be honest, neither do I. The fact that she could offer the possibility of peacefully and amicably separating filled me with hope.

Here come the buts. 

She is still not well, and what appears like a peaceful possibility could still go south big time. I feel no matter what she will still veer towards chaos and I will be always be drawn into that chaos. Some recent examples:

- Screamed at our son's kindergarten teacher on the phone for close to an hour over nothing, really nothing. I had to apologize the next morning to keep our relationship with the school.

- Really inappropriate behavior at work that scares me with how unprofessional she's behaving. She's a vocational HS teacher and she had dinner with a 17 yr old male student who invited her on the way home from school. Even though it was innocent if they had been seen... .Yesterday she told me she took away the same student's phone when he misbehaved, then read through his private texts and sent his girlfriend a message saying "I love you". This is seriously not OK. Even if she isn't fired from this very safe government job, someone's parents might sue her (us).

So on the one hand I am trying to make this very difficult life decision and on the other trying to do some contingency planning if her life explodes at some point and we are in the wake. I can't take responsibility for her, but with two kids we really need the two incomes together or not.

It would be wonderful to have everyone's feedback as I navigate my way through this very difficult decision. Thank you.

~RolandOfEld

Incidentally, I believe today is the one year anniversary of the day I discovered my wife's BPD. It's been quite a year to say the least.

[SamwizeGamgee]

It's never easy to be where you are.  In my case, my wife's behavior also got miraculously better as I learned to manage myself better.  By following things such as SET, not doing JADE, and generally learning to identify triggers, as well as a much better global understanding of BPD and mental health, life had gotten so much better. 
Nevertheless, I am still strongly considering divorce.  There has been a lot of internal damage done to me, and I don't think I can get back to where I love my wife. It is a life-chaning event to uncover truths about behavior and BPD in particular.

It sounds like we might be thinking along the same lines.  I can't help but find irony in my life.  If my wife could handle a rational conversation about amicable divorce, there would be no reason to have that discussion.  Yet, I'm dreading having a conversation about an amicable divorce because of the wrath that will likely follow. 

I would be scared by your wife's behavior while acting as a teacher - it sounds way out of bounds.  Use caution.

Deciding what to do can be agonizing.  My heart goes out to you.  I'm there in that spot too.

[Cat Familiar]

Once you come to the realization about who they are, it's a choice point. Do you want to further entwine your life around someone who is mentally and emotionally unstable or do you want to have the freedom to live life without needing to rescue, bail out, repair, fix, analyze all the problems and issues that they will bring to your future?

Even if you get off the rescuer/codependent track there's still lots of chaos that will ensue in your life just because they are who they are.

And much of that depends upon how extreme they are on the scale of functionality. My current husband is mild, but even so, just dealing with his depressive episodes, the recurrent sense of victimhood, the bouts of imperiousness and entitlement, the haughtiness, the insecurity.   YUCK! 

Had I met this side of him when we were dating, it would be "NO  THANKS!"  But now our lives are so meshed, it would be more trouble than it's worth to try and untangle them because there's also a very nice side of him that I appreciate immensely.

With my first husband, had I known about BPD then, I would have cut and run as fast as I could. But I was so busy for so many years just dealing with the crisis du jour that he brought to my life, that I had little time to reflect on what I wanted. I stayed many years longer than I should.

[PeteWitsend]

Roland... .I just "took the plunge" myself.

Some advice (assuming you're in the US):
- plan out your departure.  think of what is yours, what's hers, what you'll want to take, who will move out, who will stay, etc.  get your finances in order. 

- go see an attorney.  talk to a couple if you aren't sure.  base your choice on where they practice: family law courts are typically organized by county in the US,  so look at attorneys who have offices in the county where you'll be filing. 

- ideally look at established lawyers who have been practicing for a while... .at least 10+ years.

Even if you don't file now, it's helpful to know what you're jumping into in terms of legal and financial outcomes and costs.

[AskingWhy]

Once you come to the realization about who they are, it's a choice point. Do you want to further entwine your life around someone who is mentally and emotionally unstable or do you want to have the freedom to live life without needing to rescue, bail out, repair, fix, analyze all the problems and issues that they will bring to your future?

Even if you get off the rescuer/codependent track there's still lots of chaos that will ensue in your life just because they are who they are.

And much of that depends upon how extreme they are on the scale of functionality. My current husband is mild, but even so, just dealing with his depressive episodes, the recurrent sense of victimhood, the bouts of imperiousness and entitlement, the haughtiness, the insecurity.   YUCK!  

Had I met this side of him when we were dating, it would be "NO   THANKS!"  But now our lives are so meshed, it would be more trouble than it's worth to try and untangle them because there's also a very nice side of him that I appreciate immensely.

With my first husband, had I known about BPD then, I would have cut and run as fast as I could. But I was so busy for so many years just dealing with the crisis du jour that he brought to my life, that I had little time to reflect on what I wanted. I stayed many years longer than I should.

I agree with Cat here on the realisation about our partners and spouses.  We are forced to make a choice to leave or stay.  We weigh the pros and the cons.

First of all, Roland, please read Bill Eddy's "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  It is co-authored by Randi Kreger, the author of, "Eggshells."  It's a life saver.   I have a copy on my devices and there are many extremely valuable pieces of advice.  Mr. Eddy also does phone consults for a fee.  You can contact his office for more details.  It may be worth it.  Mr. Eddy is a lawyer as well as a social worker, and understands the instability of divorce from a person with a Cluster B mental illness.  These people try to charm and fool attorneys and judges, as well as outright lie and cause chaos.  

Peaceful and amicable divorce is one thing when pondered in calmly discussing, but in reality, divorce from a BPD can easily turn into a hurricane when she splits.  When actually faced with divorce, you W may turn into Mrs. Hyde.  

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

First of all, do NOT tell your W you suspect she has BPD.  (Has she been in therapy and has she been diagnosed?)

I am sorry you are having to deal with your dysregulations, and it must have been embarrassing to have to talk to your children's teacher after the meltdown.

I am almost where you are.  I think to myself, "I don't need this, and I don't deserve this."
  



 

[RolandOfEld]

Once you come to the realization about who they are, it's a choice point. Do you want to further entwine your life around someone who is mentally and emotionally unstable or do you want to have the freedom to live life without needing to rescue, bail out, repair, fix, analyze all the problems and issues that they will bring to your future?

Hi Cat, you put the problem very elegantly. If the chaos could be confined to our home or our relationship I might consider walking with her. But now the chaos is occurring out of our home. I thought she would at least be able to control herself professionally. Saturday night she got drunk with a friend to the point of blacking out and unable to walk, and she messaged  the student mentioned above to join them at the restaurant. That student ended up taking her home in a cab. I told her how she had to stop this personal involvement with her 17 year old student for all our sakes and she cried and promised she would. But I have very little faith.

This weekend she also used my phone while I was sleeping and messaged one of my contacts for information about a TV show in a way that was extremely embarrassing to me professionally. She did not see this.

For me it is no longer about feelings of love. She always moves in the direction of chaos. I need to shield myself and the kids from the fallout.

Hi Sam and I really appreciate your support. You note the irony so well. I just want out. But she might say yes one day and then a screaming fight the next. My strategy is to look at them as two people, try to work with the rational her and disregard behaviors from the irrational one. What do you think aboutt that?

Hi Pete, I am unfortunately not in the US but in East Asia. I do have a lawyer contact. I might get back in touch.

Hi AskingWhy, thank you for the suggestion. I bought Splitting a while back and put it down when I thought things were going better, but I'm picking it up again.

~ROE

[juju2]

Hi R.

My heart goes out.

Have read many, not all, of your posts.

The only thing that really helps me, is to find my part.   When i point at him, three fingers point back at me.

You are able to find your part, and work on that.

Sincerely,
J

[Cat Familiar]

 ROE,
So sorry to hear that she’s bringing so much chaos to your life. With her odd friendship with a young male student, plus her tendency to get blackout drunk, the potential behaviors she might engage in could have serious impacts upon you and your children.

Not only might she lose her job, but if this behavior would be regarded the same way as in the US, she might end up as front page news. Then there’s the matter of her damaging your professional relationships.

How can you limit the damage to yourself and the children should she continue to spin out of control?

Cat

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, Juju for your kind words.
Cat I'm wondering if divorce is the best solution to protect everyone.

I think my goal in this thread for now is to get feedback on my plan for the early stages to try an initiate a divorce. It would have to be during a calm period and be worded very carefully. I should mention that this is by no means our first mutual discussion on divorce. But the first time I will be talking about it with intention to actually do it.

Wording
I would say to her that its clear we are already living mostly separate lives and this seems to work better for us. A divorce would make it easier to pursue our own goals independently, and better to do it now while the kids still have no concept of romantic love and are happy just to have both of us in their lives.

Childcare
I would not fight for full custody as I had wanted to in past since I think she is stable enough to have some care of them, and a fight over this would be explosive and not likely to end in my favor. I would hope to have primary care since I'm taking 80% care of them by myself already, but we could work out them staying with her a few nights a week or on weekends.  

Living arrangements
I would suggest we eventually live in separate apartments but in the same neighborhood. I'm sure many members would through up a red flag at living close by but logistically in terms of childcare this might be essential.

Finances
There would hopefully be no her getting x% of my assets (she has more than me) or alimony, but rather we just each maintain our financial independence and continue splitting costs for children such as school.

This is my basic plan but I'm sure there are many problems in it and it will not be anything near that simple. A divorce would truly be a step by step process and extremely difficult.

~ROE

[formflier]

If she has more than you, why would you NOT get a cut of that?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Great comments everyone.  I wanted to add a quick one:
Don't go waiting on the right time or the right mood to announce your desire or decision to pursue divorce.  In my experience working with uBPDw, I think they hear what ever they want to, based on their projections and coloring of the world.  They hear "blah, blah, blah, [my own moods and beliefs], blah blah, blah"  I know I'm being a bit sarcastic, but it's a point worth noting. 

Also, there's never a good time for divorce.  I had debated what would happen to the holidays, but there's always a holiday, birthday, in-law event, wedding, or something to make it "not a good time."  The right time is your time.
ROE: It sounds like your thoughts are clear.  Your stated goals seem solid.  I like that you are able to see that there are good things in the past, and even future.
Your wording sounds rational.  Your child care goals are realistic.  I know local courts have their own opinions, but, almost everywhere mom's get a lot of preference on child custody.  I can insert a lot of unhappy ranting here, but I'll try not to.  Going to shared / nearly equal custody is usually a good approach.  I am accepting the advice to start and end and never retreat from 50/50.  That's the hill I die on if needed.  The only antidote to alienation, brainwashing, and a toxic home with mom, is a non-toxic home with a stable dad, in my opinion. 
I think you living arrangements goal is very reasonable.  You're not trying to go no-contact or evade a stalker who's harming you.  I would like a similar arrangement, that mom and dad live nearby.  The kids can keep school going, and teenagers can come and go between houses, and shuttle if needed.  I think it's very approachable.

There's a military saying that goes "no plan survives contact with the enemy."  I think I sometimes fall into a mindset that doesn't quite include that as for divorce planning.  I think you and I could both present logical, rational divorce proposals, and follow up.  But, be prepared for the unexpected, and worst cases.  Fear of that unknown explosion has kept me married.  Just saying, be safe, be prepared.

[flourdust]

Roland, can you repost your last post in the Family Law board? The members over there will have more concrete advice on those specific issues and can help you explore a hypothetical strategy.

[Radcliff]

flourdust has good advice that you might do well by starting a new thread on the Family Law board focusing on divorce and custody particulars.  It sounds like you're not completely decided, so continuing to host this thread with a focus on working through your feelings on what to do seems like a good idea, too.

Can you immediately put a passcode lock on your phone so she cannot access it?  Protecting your phone is your responsibility.  You can't control her actions, but you can put a passcode on your phone, and you need to protect your relationships and your career so you can support your family.

Continue to strive for the healthiest relationship you can, but if you file for divorce, expect things to go south.  Maybe they won't, so it's always good to be prepared for them to go well.  Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Have we talked about Al-anon?  Are there meetings where you live?  Have you tried going to meetings?

RC

[RolandOfEld]

Hi FF, I suppose in many respects I have some entitlement but relationship-wise I think it be much easier to cut it with she takes hers I take mine and work out an agreement for who pays what child-wise.

Hi Sam, I really appreciate the advice on custody. The way I see it happening is more on the opposite, where she agrees to 50/50 but often backs out on her responsibility to take care of them. Because that's how it works now. When she's in a good mood, she's a somewhat participating mother. When she dysregulates, she's out the door or in the bedroom all day. That's probably my most frustrating point right now. She's only a supportive partner when she's in the mood to be. The first thought that goes into my head when she dysregulates is, "Crap, I'm on 100% childcare for the next few days." Its like having two alter egos, married dad and single dad. So I anticipate similar behavior is we are separated. If we have an argument, her day with the kids doesn't happen. So be it.

Thanks, Flourdust, I will post on the family board if discussions go south. As per Radcliff's advice I'll try to stay focused on feelings here and bring any legal / custody issues there.

Radcliff I'm preparing for all contingencies. I remember we talked about Al-Anon but I forget the context and reason for me going. Right now almost all activities are blotted out by childcare.

~ROE

[flourdust]

Thanks, Flourdust, I will post on the family board if discussions go south. As per Radcliff's advice I'll try to stay focused on feelings here and bring any legal / custody issues there.

Just remember that posting on Family Law isn't committing to divorce! That's just the place with the right people to help you explore contingencies such as the ones you are looking at here -- they will happily let you work through hypothetical situations to arm you with knowledge about your options.

[SamwizeGamgee]

ROE - I know being abused and neglected is never somethign to be envious of, but, when my wife is more threatened (i.e. by fear of abandonment / separation / divorce) or generally disregulates, she becomes more possessive and enmeshed with the kids, even to the point of parentification.  So, if a divorce loomed, she would, I expect, do all she can to take over the kids completely - which feeds into the court's mindset that mom is best. 
So, I hate to say I envy you, but, I kind of do.  I wish she'd leave the kids to me as a cop out strategy!
Sorry we're all here considering this topic :/

[RolandOfEld]

@Flourdust, thank you and I will certainly take it there as the situation evolves.

@Sam, I know exactly what you're talking about.

These days I don't feel much for proactively mentioning divorce. I feel like the situation is moving there in a very natural, mostly peaceful way. We really are taking different paths as people, and even little things (she used to put her feet on my lap when sitting on the couch together, not anymore) have vanished in the last month or so. But I'll admit I'm afraid to bring it up, afraid she'll still lash out at me, or that she'll agree and then won't go through with it.  I'm scared she won't let me go and I'll have to fight.

~ROE

[Red5]

These days I don't feel much for proactively mentioning divorce. I feel like the situation is moving there in a very natural, mostly peaceful way.

We really are taking different paths as people, and even little things (she used to put her feet on my lap when sitting on the couch together, not anymore) have vanished in the last month or so.

But I'll admit I'm afraid to bring it up, afraid she'll still lash out at me, or that she'll agree and then won't go through with it.  I'm scared she won't let me go and I'll have to fight.

Good morning ROE !

I, as many here; have been following your threads for a while now.

To divorce of not divorce… like Sam says above, there is no “good time” to do it, it’s just going to happen one day… sooner or later, one of the “deal breakers” will be committed with great prejudice, and that will “bring about the end” so to speak…

In my first marriage to another u/BPD, which lasted twenty-one years... .it was the frog in the pot scenario… “oh’, she slept with another man, but she was bloody drunk at the time, oh’ she’s done it again, well we were not getting along well (my fault)… Ok, she’s done it yet again, and she got “knocked up” this time… and she says she wants out~>”…

You see, it will happen “naturally" as you say, that poor frog will have had enough and say to himself, OK, THAT’S QUITE ENOUGH!… and hop out of that pot!

*The interaction with her “student” is a  red flag Roland, I would not dismiss that…

Time goes on, and with each and every “deal breaker” that gets “broken”, sans promises to not ever do it again, it makes the Non harden his or her heart.

Like an old worn out satellite, that keeps malfunctioning, and as its orbit decays, and it sinks further towards the atmosphere, it wont be long... .

Hang in there, and keep posting,

Kind regards, Red5

[SamwizeGamgee]

There will never be a letting go in a peaceful way I'm afraid.  Why should she want that? (rhetorical question)
She's got it pretty good, and can wreck everything in her path, and still have a home life at your expense.

That said, not every day has to be on a war-footing.  I enjoy the days where there is no burning desperation to get divorced in my heart, and things can almost look and feel normal.  I think of those as rest days in between the larger, longer, arduous journey of survival.  

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, just noting that I have continued the topic on the Family board at the suggestion of some here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330262.msg13010190#msg13010190