Shouldn't be surprised about Stepdad

[kells76]

I think I need to process this outside of my head, so here I am... .

Nothing big or surprising, I guess, all things considered.

A woman at my work told me she ran into my kids' dad the other day. I said, "Oh, you must have been at [type of place DH works]". She seemed confused and said, "No, I was at [place Stepdad works], he said you're his kids' stepmom." I told her that "he just says that kind of thing". She said he seemed really nice, so I commented that "he's a very personable guy."

I felt my body shaking afterwards -- the kind of physical response I remember having 5-6  years ago about Mom & Stepdad.

I think I'm having some fear about "things getting bad again" or "going back to how it was". SD12 is doing way better (spent another school night with us again!), but SD10 seems to be a little bit where SD12 was when she was 10 -- telling Mom things Mom wants to hear (coming home "sick" from school because she was "so tired" after the weekend with us).

I'm thinking about how even though in terms of Mom's and Stepdad's behaviors, things look better, fundamentally psychologically they are no different than how they were half a decade ago.

I still am flabbergasted at how disrespectful Stepdad is towards DH.

And yet none of this "should" be surprising, right?

Just needed a place to let this out and not ruminate, so thanks

[formflier]

     The body shakes suck.  From time to time I still struggle with them.   Walks and rhythmic breathing seem to help.

I'm glad you came here to process.  My guess is you are a "thinker"... vice a "feeler".  I'm an ESTJ... .there have been a couple personality threads floating around you may want to check out.

Anyway... I identified with "working out feelings (thinking about them) on the boards"... .I do it all the time.

Listen... I didn't see a specific question, so I hope sharing my first reaction with you is appropriate.

I got the feeling there was a hint of "covering" a situation or trying to be polite, when at your core... .you know there is strain (even though it appears to be better over the years... yaaaay for the sleepovers!    :wee

You can't "do over" that conversation, but it is wise to think about the next one.  It will happen... that's life.

What would it look like for you "to be more honest" about the situation?  To not make apologies or cover?

I've got some ideas about how to do it appropriately... .but figured I would let you consider it first.

FF

[kells76]

ISFJ, actually, according to the one time I took the M-B. But the day job is collecting and analyzing data, which has been my "safe place" for a while.

Hmmm... .good question about whether I was "covering" for Stepdad.

A model I had growing up was that "it's not our job to badmouth hurtful people". I remember being at an event that basically celebrated someone who had been very hurtful to a family member. The tacit message I got from that family member is that "people are going to think what they're going to think about that person, and I still have my own experience." I don't think that's wrong.

I'm also not interested in being a person who uses interactions about Mom and Stepdad to insert the "right" opinions about them. I.e., I don't want to be someone who, when Stepdad comes up in a conversation, makes sure that everyone knows that he's a narcissistic attention hog who uses the kids to prop up his self-esteem and who lacks basic self-awareness.

My investment level with making sure this lady at work "knew the truth" about Stepdad wasn't high. I mean, she was going to think what she was going to think about him, and I'm sure in her interaction with him he turned on the charm.

So what would "being honest" about Mom and Stepdad look like in a brief conversation with a low-investment third party? (Which might be a helpful question for a lot of members here)

Hmmm... .

OK, so she initiated the conversation with "I met your stepkids' dad the other day". Not sure who wouldn't assume it was DH. Worked out who it actually was and that Stepdad calls the kids HIS kids.

Yes, he does "say that kind of thing". Seems like explaining would go down the JADE road and is also a bigger investment in the conversation than maybe it merits.

A different choice I could have made would have been to just comment "interesting... ." or "huh, that would be confusing" or some other non-weight-bearing comment, versus explanation. Oh, I think I did throw a "wow, small world" in there somewhere. So, yes, another tack could have been neutral "hmmm" or "how about that" instead of "let me explain to you about how Stepdad works".

Yes, Stepdad is personable, in that when you're "in his light" it feels great, and when you're "in his shadow" you're a bad, bad guy. A different comment could have been "he seems charismatic", or, turning it back on Coworker's experience, "sounds like you had a good interaction".

... .

So, I'm thinking of how to balance (1) investment level in person/conversation, with (2) personal value of it not being my job to badmouth hurtful people, with (3) not doing the work of "covering" for dysfunction. I'd be interested in hearing about how you'd choose to navigate those variables... .

[livednlearned]

I think your body shakes are trying to get your attention about something.

Her interaction was innocent enough and also invalidating.

Juggling the niceties (a typical female burden) with gutting emotional stuff can take a toll and you have been paying a big price for a long time, and your body is telling you that.   

You're in a terrible situation and it's not fair. You can't extricate yourself and you can't get rid of the step dad and wife. One kid is starting to recover and the other one is losing her way, it's happening all over again and you feel dread and despair combined with a lot of conditioning to act like it isn't gutting you emotionally when this lady walks up and says "He seems nice."

Gah!

Scream!

Going along with it is death by a thousand paper cuts. Have you ever met people whose boundaries you can just feel? I can think of times when I say something exactly like that lady said to you, and a cold air passes through the conversation because something is going unsaid. By saying nothing, there is a split second of discomfort because silence is terrifying and it may feel like an eternity but it isn't. It's just a few seconds where you let the person's words hang in the air because you have nothing positive to say. Instead, you are holding yourself in that moment, taking care of your shaking body and promising yourself you will not let one more paper cut tear across your skin. At the very least, you won't help it cut deeper.

You are a badass kells76. You are doing the unthinkable and impossible, and you deserve to have boundaries in conversations where there is no consequence.

Say nothing if you have nothing to say.

If stepdad is the source of unending pain and the mere mention of his name gives you body shakes, you have the right to say nothing.

[formflier]

You did great up until the last bit... .where you left it hanging with  the opinion that "he's nice"... .and "held your truth in".

I'm not suggesting that was the entire reason for feeling bad... but I'm going to guess that it had more to do with it than you understand.

Don't think of these interactions as a court case where you prove your point... .instead share YOUR feelngs... .share how it has affected YOU.  The person speaking to you was saying something nice and perhaps thought it would cheer you up.   So... let's take it at face value that they care about your feelings (no reason to think otherwise... right?)

them: blah blah blah he's really nice

you:  yes... he does seem to be a personable guy.  Sadly, my relationship with him is strained (or "we don't have much of a relationship"... sad with sadness).  Perhaps pause and then say... "understandable given the divorce and all... "

then... .maybe they share something about divorce from their life... .

or maybe they talk about the weather

either way you can finish off with "Thanks for mentioning the kids... .they are the highlight of my life." 

No reason to get into details, yet you've shared your truth... .can't be argued with.  And in the off chance that they really were "just making conversation... .vice really "caring" or trying to impact your feelings... "  it's still a polite conversation and very easy for them to exit.

So... .why do I bring this up or have experience?

Sadly... .I'm voluntarily estranged from my wife's FOO... .good grief I was about to say 2 years, but it's really closer to three.

I don't hide that fact from people, yet I don't push it either.

We live where we live because of them... .I don't hide that either.  So... .conversations might go like me talking about moving closer to my wife's family, since she followed me around the Navy for over 20 years... so it's kind her turn.  (and I still feel that's fair) 

Yet if I get asked directly if I enjoy being close to them or things like that, I don't hide the fact that I don't see them very often.  No details needed.

Certainly I change exactly what I say to a passing acquaintance, versus a close friend.

Anyway... .I feel better when I talk about how I feel about my life, enjoyments and hurts, vice trying to "sanitize" my life or... (heaven forbid) cover for others than act horribly).

FF

[formflier]

Just read the post I cross posted with.

By covering... .you invalidated yourself.  You can validate yourself without throwing someone else under the bus.

While I certainly can't argue with saying nothing (so many times I would be better off using that... .so many) I know that times I have been able to speak my truth and validate myself... .I "feel better" after.

FF

[takingandsending]

Hi kells76.

I am sorry that you felt that visceral response to an off chance meeting through third party. It does show the razor's edge we are living on with BPD/NPD. I get triggered so often by my S7, when he is pretty innocently parroting beliefs my xw has.

Maybe the question is, how can we go forward in our lives with less reactivity. I don't have any great answers on this one. I am still trying to learn how myself. I think when my body gives me cues, taking time to slow down, pay attention to what is happening to me and to be there for myself is the best I can do in the moment. My T taught me to visualize my adult self taking my younger self by the hand to a place I envision as safe, peaceful, restorative, and just stay there for a bit. Would it be odd to do that with a coworker or friend? Sure. But that would be a way of being honest with your feelings that would not reflect or act outward toward the immediate source of your pain.

So often, these feelings are echoes of traumas or things we experienced in the past. Can you think of any experience that this emulates where you were directly affected, felt either fear or hurt? I don't think it is necessary to find the source of all our feelings - truly, they are endless. But sometimes, knowing a pattern can help self-identify when your body starts throwing you these cues.

You are not alone ... .me either, I guess. The constant judgment and pervasive blaming (re. SD10 being tired out and sick after a fun weekend with you) is wearing on a soul. It takes its toll. So, maybe this is a reminder that kells76 needs some self love and self care. I wish that we could change the sick and harmful people that cross our paths in life, but much like our feelings, there will be no end of them. Somehow, we need to give ourselves the space to feel and heal when that harm has been done so that we feel less reactive going forward. Just my thoughts.

[kells76]

Good questions/comments, thank you guys.

FF: I think you've highlighted another operating instruction I have, which is "it's not safe to tell people how you really feel". That one goes back a long time. A newer one is "it's not safe to give Mom and Stepdad any information about you". Information is Mom's currency and "leverage", and she has shown that she can't handle personal information very well.

I need to think some more about what it would be like to tell someone (who might interact with Stepdad again) how I really feel about him, given (a) that it's hard for me to trust people with how I feel, and (b) that M&SD might hear about it.

LnL: another operating instruction I seem to have is something like "you may spend a long, long time in life diligently doing the right thing for others and being tired yourself, but you still need to do it". Or, maybe more succinctly, "doing the right thing comes at a cost to you". Connected to an idea of "you may never get what you want in life and that's just how it will be". So when I read your comment that I "have been paying a big price for a long time", part of me was like "well, YEAH, that's just what needs to be done for the kids". Kind of like "too bad if it's hard for me forever, I need to do the right thing" (and not say anything negative about M&SD).

This is similar to the time I was trying to figure out whether to go to Mom's "art show" to show the kids I was supportive, or to not go and show the kids I was taking care of myself. Do I not "badmouth" Stepdad, and model integrity for the kids? Or do I say how I really feel about him, and model honesty? What if "doing the right thing" (a big value) means telling someone how I really feel (might not be safe)?

TaS: I think you're right in a big-picture way -- that however I work out what the right thing to do is, or why I responded the way I did, being less reactive to these "surprises" is a goal going forwards.

The situation where I was at an event that essentially celebrated someone who had hurt a family member is a close parallel. Lots of people getting up in front saying what a great guy this person was, while I was sitting there seething. So I probably have similar neural pathways for both situations. And yeah, the template would be "listening to someone talk about what a great guy this self-involved, hurtful person is".

... .

So I can see a little better why I was shaking after that conversation. It wasn't really a "brief conversation", it was more of an intense blitz of some really core beliefs all at once -- that I must do the right thing at any cost, and that it is not safe to say what I really think, all in a neural framework of "powerless to stop people from saying how great this hurtful person is". That's a lot for 30 seconds... .

Lots of food for thought for me... .

[livednlearned]

Maybe the most important thing is that your body talked and you listened.  

At the very least, that gets you out of the scripted parts ("should") and into a place where you can decide whether or not x is working for you ("will").

[formflier]

Think about the nuance of how I wrote it.  You aren't saying anything about how you feel about him.

You are expressing sadness or regret about the relationship.

Instead of "he is a jerk... ."  you can say... ."sadly... we don't have a good relationship."

Who is at fault?  Who got handed blame? 

Yet... .your feelings were expressed... .much more accurately than before.

Now... .switching gears.  People that you KNOW will not be respectful of your private information and feelings... .different matter.  I wouldn't give them any information.  No need to whitewash things either.  Less is more in those kinds of deals.

FF