D11 Loathing uBPD Mother

[Torched]

This summer, my D11 frequently related that she preferred her 50/50 time with me and usually didn’t want to go to her mom’s house.  I thought she was just being nice and loving; after all, my daughter and I are close and have a lot of fun together.  My mother told me last month that when my D11 was showing her pictures on her phone, a meme pic was passed over which said something related to uBPD mom’s behavior.  The meme said “Making a child too scared to talk about someone they love makes you a piece of s*#t.”  I recently confirmed it as it is still in her camera roll.

Context is divorced two years.  Ex was typically jealous of my family and alienated me from them.  MO was contempt suspicion and cold shouldering along with infrequent raging.  I took both my kids to a therapist after divorce with the stated goal to prepare them for their mothers behaviors and to practice boundary setting.  The therapist believes my ex is BPD.  Kids did great but do not know that their mother is disordered.  Confusing for them as the following proves:

Last night on a long drive home from dance D11 tells me that things st moms are awful.  Mom continually presses her about dads gf and family, scoffing and embarrassing D11.  D11 says she tries to tell mom to stop which invites what I would call gaslighting and guilting behavior.  D11 says there are frequent yelling matches.  This is out of character for my daughter so I can see she is very miserable and stressed.  She was leaning towards sounding “stuck” but did not ask for more time with me.  She is miserable there, happy at my home.  My daughter added that she talks to her friends about her moms treatment to have an outlet but finds it embarrassing.

I’m happy my D11 is healthy enough to see this dysfunction and resist it however I’m worried she will be broken down as her mother is extremely stubborn and steady with pressure and scorn.

I explained to her that these behaviors were what I dealt with for years.  That I didn’t set boundaries and don’t know if I could have anyway.  That I don’t believe her mother understands her affects or will ever be able to change.  My daughter was so frustrated to hear this, but I thought it needed to be said.  I told her NONE of moms feelings were anyone else’s responsibility than moms... .and that it was wrong for mom to guilt her.  That my D11 was a wonderful kid who didn’t deserve to be made to feel this way.  That there is nothing wrong with her.

Outside of this I don’t know what else to do.  I believe this will get worse.  I’ve been documenting these behaviors in a journal since before the divorce.  There is a lot of info, none of it flattering for uBPD mother.

[worriedStepmom]

How does the therapist think that D11 is handling the stress?  How do YOU think she is handling the stress?  Between you and the T, I hope you'll be able to gauge when it is the right time to try to intervene and ensure D11 has less time at mom's.

The stress got to my SD right as she was turning 11, and we were able to flip custody this summer to a 65/35 with my husband as primary.  Since then, SD's stress-related behaviors have diminished dramatically.  Even her mom has admitted that SD seems a lot happier now when SD is at mom's house (although mom sees no correlation between the change in attitude and less time at mom's house).  In our case, SD NEVER expressed an opinion on which house she wanted to be in until 4 months after the custody switch had taken place.  (A few weeks ago she got fed up with her mom's antics and decided not to go to one of her scheduled visitations with mom.)   

Is your ex the type to really fight you on a custody switch, or the type to agree after making your life hell for a few weeks/months?

[Torched]

I had to fight extremely hard to get 50/50 custody in a situation where I was obviously a great, highly engaged father.  She wanted 70/30.  She values her “ownership” of the kids.  She is very high functioning as a BPD and is a working professional.  People outside the family would never guess that she is so disordered.  A court battle would be very long, stressful for the kids, and expensive.  Her mother would become far worse as a result, especially if she lost time.

[Torched]

Also my D11 is thriving so I don’t believe the stress is overwhelming yet; however, she is unhappy enough to not want to be around her mom.  The meme tells me she is beginning to loathe her mother.  I can relate as that is what led to my divorce.

[david]

Depending on the state, your D11 will be able to change things on her own. In our state courts would listen to a 14 year old. Our youngest is 15 now and we have 50/50. He hasn't said anything about changing custody but he does talk to me about his mom and her behavior. The one thing helping him, when he is at her place, is she is rarely there. He gets up in the morning, feeds himself, and gets the bus to school. He comes home from school, does his school work most of the time, makes dinner, and goes to sleep before she is there. He has little interaction with her and I believe he likes the fact that he is on his own. Ex actually went on a vacation the last school year and said nothing to me. He was there for two days before I found out and then I picked him up. He slipped up when he told me. He does not get into any trouble. I can understand why he would like being on his own there. Actually, he already is most of the time.

[Notwendy]

This is a fine line to walk on. Having raised teens, I found there were times they didn't like me. It was part of their growing up to be individuals and their natural instinct to push a parent away, or push on a boundary,  to establish their own individuality. Teens don't know who they are and so being "not Mom" or "not Dad" is part of it. On my side, it was a gradual letting go while maintaining some rules and boundaries. No to going out if they didn't do their homework, yes to that outfit even if I don't like it so long as they were appropriately covered. Teens don't have good emotional control all the time. There were some " but Sally's mom lets her do this, it isn't fair".

Personally I think it takes an emotionally grounded parent to withstand the mood swings and protests of a teen. I had to stay calm and not emotionally react to them. In this way, we role model emotional regulation to them- and also give them the space to learn. Theirs are due to hormones and the rapid growth- they need to follow rules but also have the space manage their emotions.  I admit there were times I was frustrated and tearful. But thankfully the teens grew up and learned they can both like their parents and be themselves.

I contrast this to my own teen years with BPD mom. She explained our issues to others as being a teenager-mother stage but once I went through it with my own kids, I realized it wasn't the same thing. Mom's mood swings were more extreme than any of mine. She pushed the boundary limits more than I did. I didn't know what BPD was- but had the feeling I was "older" than her. She acted like a teen, I had to act like the adult. I was parentified.

I loathed her too at this age- because I didn't understand she had a disorder. I don't think there was much understood about BPD at the time to understand, but I resented that I had to be perfectly good all the time and she could do what she wanted and I had to obey her. If my parents were divorced at the time, I would have begged the courts to let me live with my father. I counted the days till I started college so I could get away from her. Nobody outside the home would have guessed. I showed no obvious signs of stress at school- I made good grades and had friends, but school was my happy place. It was home, behind closed doors with mother that was a different picture.

Is your D seeing a counselor? I think it would help for her to have someone objective to talk to besides you- to keep out of triangulating, and also someone objective to tell her the truth about her mother in a sensitive way, someone to support her feelings and also allow her to have her own teen moments of normal feelings. Probably every teen gets angry at their parents at times, and yet, they need  parental boundaries. Going through this stage with a BPD parent can be different- it can be a mix of good boundaries- combined with  parent who has poor emotional regulation and poor boundaries. You can't change that for your D , but perhaps counseling can help mitigate the effects.

[livednlearned]

It's great that she talks to you.

The fine line between validating her feelings about mom's bad behavior and getting sucked into a no-win drama triangle is tough. S17 and I have a good relationship and still I don't handle things perfectly -- there are many times where S17's therapist recognizes something to do with n/BPDx that I don't.

The example you give -- telling D11 that you weren't able to handle her mom -- I have done that too. It can send a complicated message that may have the opposite effect of what you're going for.

Why not give her some hope after frustrating her with your previous comment. I think it's important you do this. Tell her you want a do-over.

"I learned so much about how to have healthy boundaries, that it wasn't something I could do in the marriage, but it's something I'm learning now. I try to have good boundaries with co-workers, friends, family. It's a work in progress and it's made my life so much more fulfilling. There are relationship and communication skills that take practice and they can help you throughout your entire life when you come across people who don't have good boundaries, who don't listen when you say no."

Then learn those skills and work on them together. Watch programs together and talk about boundaries. Discuss them when you're out in public together, when you let someone trample your boundary describe how you felt, what your choices were, why you did x when what you wanted to do was y, what price you paid or didn't pay.

She complained about your ex and then you said something that frustrated her. Pay as much attention to her frustration with you as you do to her frustration with her mom.

The difference is that you can do something about how she feels with you -- you can give her hope that things can get better for her, even if she can't change her mom.

[Panda39]

Hi Torched,

LnL, gives you a good example and advice, pass on the tools you have learned here.

At 11 your tween is likely having a harder time with her mom because she is growing more independent (which is exactly what she should be doing) but this is also likely to cause more conflict with her mom as your daughter tries to assert herself and her independence more.  Your D11 is beginning to separate herself from her parents but as we know BPDmom's can see their children as an extension of themselves so the struggle with her mom will likely be tough.

Keep up that validation when it comes to your daughters feelings (without badmouthing mom).

I may have missed it but is your daughter in therapy at all?  If not you might consider it as she enters in to adolescents for assistance with coping skills regarding her mom.

You may have already seen this, but I thought I'd pull it up just in case you hadn't.  It's information on "Raising Resilient Children" there are multiple topics... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

Take Care,
Panda39

[Notwendy]

I agree with lnl that it is a fine line between validating and triangulating. Also you and her mother may be on the same page with regards to some teen discipline and it is important to not have a good guy/bad guy parenting situation. She actually does have to abide my her mother's rules when she is at her house. As difficult as it was to be a teen with a BPD mother, sometimes she was right on with things like expecting me to do homework, curfew and other household rules. She was not as permissive as some of my friend's parents and this actually was a good thing although I probably didn't think so as a teen.

One aspect of the triangulation was that I perceived my father as the good guy and the victim in my parents' relationship and my mother as the one with the problem. When I did vent to him, he sometimes also reinforced that perspective. " I wasn't able to handle your mom" is both honest and frightening. My parents didn't divorce and I also felt that if my strong intelligent father couldn't handle her, how would I be able to?

One benefit of your daughter learning the tools to deal with her mother is that she will take these tools to all her relationships. Healthy boundaries, recognizing drama, not participating, learning to validate her mother's feelings without validating what isn't true, not being reactive to triggers. This is a tall order for even an adult and she won't get this all at once, but a counselor can possibly help both of you start this process.

As much as you want to avoid parentification, I think it is inevitable that your D will emotionally "outgrow" her mother at some point. At this point it will possibly feel confusing to her. Counseling can help her understand this disorder and also help her understand that while she may have to behave in a more emotionally mature manner, she is not responsible for her mother's feelings and is not her emotional caretaker.

These posts remind me that, even if divorce is the best option for a marriage, if there are children, divorce isn't a complete removal from the pwBPD. This is also true for the children of a parent with BPD. The relationship tools are valuable for all involved with that person.

[Torched]

Thank you everyone.  To answer a couple contextual questions:

1) D11 isn’t in counseling, but was.  I have considered that things are not to the point yet where a professional person should be added back into the mix (I don’t want D11 to think that every time she tells me something, its “back to the therapist”) but they might get there soon enough.   At that time, I would like her to work with the original counselor who has a grasp of the situation and can “update” my daughter’s toolbox to that of a teenager where boundaries etc. are concerned.

2). Triangulation.  I fully understand what you are all saying here.  I kind of reluctantly went deeper than I might have because I had to explain some things to my daughter.  I was/am sensitive to this danger.  I repeatedly explain things to my daughter in as objective a way as possible, and I never trash talk her mother.  I will remain sensitive to this.

3). Frustration/fear.  I see exactly what several of you are saying about how I might have left my daughter feeling powerless.  I’ll revisit this issue with her and tell her how I’ve improved and how she can work with me on this.  I think that will empower her as we move along and I appreciate everyone’s input on this part of the equation.