Considering getting out

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I had posted a month ago about the disaster of a trip to Maui with my BPD husband.  Since that times things have been rough.  This entire year has been incredibly stressful dealing with his moods.  I am wondering why this year has been so incredibly tough with regard to his stress level. He is 61, just retired, (I believe he retired too soon), we moved into a new area of town that he does not like (although he really does not like anything right now), his perhaps BPD mom is getting close to passing.  There have been a lot of stressors for sure, but I am about done with all of what he has been dealing toward me with emotional abuse.  We have a home in AZ and I came out by myself for 10 days.  He just came yesterday and I asked if he came to leave off the negativity and criticism.  It took about 10 minutes for him to start in.  I started to talk to him about him and it got nasty very quickly.  He starts threatening with leaving and then takes a drive, etc etc etc.  I am about done.  I read the info on whether to stay or leave.  While I realize there are things I can do that may make the relationship better, I am honestly so worn down that I really do not care anymore.

I am tired of being his 'whipping post'.  I told him last night I would like him to treat me as he would a neighbor or someone in the grocery store line, just a friendly person.  He thinks he has a right to dump on me.  Tells me I have the problem.  It is always anger that he accuses me of.  He says he feels like he has no partner, trying to guilt me with obligation.  While I have learned so much in the last few months about his mental illness and how it has impacted his life and mine, I am just not sure at this point in my life, that I have the energy or the desire to move forward. 

It feels like I am taking care of a sick child who is constantly throwing a tantrum or pouting. 

Any suggestions for me for hope?  I am in therapy and doing lots of things to try and calm myself down.  In need of help please.

[lonely38]

I had posted a month ago about the disaster of a trip to Maui with my BPD husband.  Since that times things have been rough.  This entire year has been incredibly stressful dealing with his moods.  I am wondering why this year has been so incredibly tough with regard to his stress level. He is 61, just retired, (I believe he retired too soon), we moved into a new area of town that he does not like (although he really does not like anything right now), his perhaps BPD mom is getting close to passing.  There have been a lot of stressors for sure, but I am about done with all of what he has been dealing toward me with emotional abuse.  We have a home in AZ and I came out by myself for 10 days.  He just came yesterday and I asked if he came to leave off the negativity and criticism.  It took about 10 minutes for him to start in.  I started to talk to him about him and it got nasty very quickly.  He starts threatening with leaving and then takes a drive, etc etc etc.  I am about done.  I read the info on whether to stay or leave.  While I realize there are things I can do that may make the relationship better, I am honestly so worn down that I really do not care anymore.

I am tired of being his 'whipping post'.  I told him last night I would like him to treat me as he would a neighbor or someone in the grocery store line, just a friendly person.  He thinks he has a right to dump on me.  Tells me I have the problem.  It is always anger that he accuses me of.  He says he feels like he has no partner, trying to guilt me with obligation.  While I have learned so much in the last few months about his mental illness and how it has impacted his life and mine, I am just not sure at this point in my life, that I have the energy or the desire to move forward. 

It feels like I am taking care of a sick child who is constantly throwing a tantrum or pouting. 

Any suggestions for me for hope?  I am in therapy and doing lots of things to try and calm myself down.  In need of help please.

[Cat Familiar]

I am wondering why this year has been so incredibly tough with regard to his stress level.

Lots of very major stressors for anyone, and even more so for a pwBPD: retirement, a move, parent mortality.

He just came yesterday and I asked if he came to leave off the negativity and criticism.  It took about 10 minutes for him to start in.  I started to talk to him about him and it got nasty very quickly.

You are exhausted and totally burned out by his anger. Do you see how asking him to not be negative or critical was a criticism in itself? PwBPD are dealing with so much shame and self-loathing and your request immediately triggered his shame.

He starts threatening with leaving and then takes a drive, etc etc etc. 

That he left to take a drive was a positive strategy to self-soothe--as long as he wasn't acting out by driving crazily. PwBPD have difficulty self-soothing and it's good for them to take a time out.

I am about done.  I read the info on whether to stay or leave.  While I realize there are things I can do that may make the relationship better, I am honestly so worn down that I really do not care anymore.

I am tired of being his 'whipping post'.  I told him last night I would like him to treat me as he would a neighbor or someone in the grocery store line, just a friendly person.  He thinks he has a right to dump on me.  Tells me I have the problem.  It is always anger that he accuses me of.  He says he feels like he has no partner, trying to guilt me with obligation.  While I have learned so much in the last few months about his mental illness and how it has impacted his life and mine, I am just not sure at this point in my life, that I have the energy or the desire to move forward. 

It feels like I am taking care of a sick child who is constantly throwing a tantrum or pouting. 

I know exactly what you mean and in the past, I've certainly felt that way--just wanting the benign politeness that would be accorded a stranger.   

I, too, have frequently been accused of being angry, much of the time when actually I wasn't, but then, with the accusation, I did become angry. I'll go out on a limb and say that you probably are angry, and who wouldn't be when you feel like you're treated so unfairly and unkindly and that you have to go out of your way to accommodate his angry moods. I certainly would be angry if I were in your shoes.

You don't have to make any sudden decisions about whether or not to continue this relationship. I understand that you're completely exhausted at having to deal with him and not sure if this is something you want.

In the meantime, please look at the sidebar. I think the most important thing is to diffuse conflict. I discovered that I was invalidating my husband constantly, without meaning to. It's hard to imagine how a successful man could have such fragile self-esteem, but he does. So I quit disagreeing with him about insignificant things, I listened better, basically I treated him the way I would treat a stranger--with politeness and respect. And without me adding to the conflict, it lessened considerably.

He still has moods and gets grumpy, but when that happens, I totally disengage myself and do something I enjoy without making note of his emotional state. "Oh, I've got to take the laundry out of the drier... .I've got to medicate the cat... .I left the water on in the horse pasture... .I've got to go to the feed store... .etc."  I have an endless list of things I must do when he's not pleasant to be around--and I get a lot of chores done that way. It benefits nobody for me to stick around and endure his grumpiness.

Then when I return, he's often done with whatever was troubling him or he is able to talk about it in a grownup way.

[braveSun]

He thinks he has a right to dump on me.  Tells me I have the problem.  It is always anger that he accuses me of.  He says he feels like he has no partner, trying to guilt me with obligation.

Lonely in co, so sorry you are going through this. No, he doesn't have any of these kinds of right on you. 

I have been there too. I could have written the same thing. No reason for you to have to endure that. I see you are taking steps to take care of yourself, and that's already a sign that you are a person who cares. So easy to slip into forgetting that we have needs too under those high winds.

I have learned over time to 'take my ears out' of the ranting zone.  When I see that my spouse gets going, I go somewhere else, I take the phone off my ears, something! A bit like Cat, I'm now finding something to do and walk away when that starts.  It's been a learning curve for me, though.

I still struggle a bit with walking away on someone when they try to express their feelings. It's not my nature. I want to help. But than, there are ways to express oneself, and than there are times when people just dump. Like you said.

Another thing I did is to say I have to walk away for a few minutes because 'there is too much tension between us right now', or 'we're getting into a circle again and we can't get any progress done'. And than I will be back a few minutes later 'when things calm down between us'.

That, over time, when I actually could find the way to ventilate my own negative emotions and come back, has brought a bit of hope. Also, problem solving I discovered with my spouse worked better if divided in small chunks.

And, there are the times we pick to talk about controversial stuff.

For example, we have a rule that we're not talking about difficult stuff when we are tired, like at the end of the day, or when we don't have enough time to get anywhere, like when one of us is getting ready to leave. And none of it while we're in the car.

Those are some examples of small boundaries I have learned to bring in. But until these have been introduced and it has happened that some tiny bit of productive conversation did take place, gosh, things were impossible for us.

Did you try any of these methods?

[AskingWhy]

lonely, I am so sorry this is happening to you.     I know how you feel.

Ah, Hawaii.  I also have memories of my uBPD/uNPD H on vacation there.  I also feel I have been H's punching bag.  

On vacation, there were signs of a hurricane that might hit the island we were on.  Locals and even hotel workers cautioned for us to have enough food, flashlights and water stored in our rooms in the event power was knocked out from a hurricane hit.  I suggested to H about cancelling our reservation on that side of the island that the hurricane was projected to hit.

Well, H wanted to have nothing to do with this caution.  He immediately raged at me, screaming how he hated me, how I was "always" trying to ruin his enjoyment of life, and how he did not fly thousands of miles just to stay in a hotel room, etc.  Of course, he made a divorce threat.  His rant went on for hours into the evening after we had a meal in the hotel restaurant.  Not yet suspecting he was BPD, I was devastated and cried and cried, not knowing what I did to make him so unhappy, begging H not to be mad at me, trying to convince him of what the locals were cautioning to no effect.

It was not until a grocery clerk asked if we were tourists, and to have plenty of disaster supplies in our hotel room.  H did not even so much as apologise to me.  Was it the splitting? Did H totally forget the tirade he raged upon me in the hotel room just a day earlier?  

I recall distinctly looking out of the window of our luxurious hotel room at the beautiful ocean and wondering, "Why am I so miserable and in this horrid marriage?"

It took several years to understand "I" was not the cause, and I discovered there is a clinical name for it, and that H is a sick man.  He hits most of the diagnostic criteria for BPD.

I found the best thing to do is to disengage.  Don't engage in his arguments.  If H rages at me, I look at him like a ranting child.  When he threatens divorce, I no longer try to tearfully talk him out of it.  Instead, I simply say, "If that is what you want."

Yes, it is emotionally abuse.  And it's also like being married to a bratty child or teenager.  Most of all, I stay calm and let him rant.  If he screams in my face, I leave the room, or leave the house for a few hours to let him cool off.

If you are considering leaving, you must have a copy of Bill Eddy's "Splitting."  It's a guide on divorcing a person with BPD or NPD.  Eddy is both a social worker and a lawyer.  Leaving a person with these PDs is not an easy task, and they play the court system and judges with manipulation, outright lies and other tricks.

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

Be well and take care of yourself.    

[Notwendy]

Any suggestions for me for hope?  I am in therapy and doing lots of things to try and calm myself down.  In need of help please.


I don't think we are able to tell you what decisions to make about the relationship or which direction it will go, but I think there is hope in the tools on this board for "making the relationship better".  My reason for saying this is that it really isn't working on the other person, but gaining relationship skills- that we get to keep. The person doing the work benefits- and because of that, their relationships can possibly benefit. It's actually an investment in ourselves.

If the relationship splits up, the tools can still help. Divorce is a long process and it would require the two of you still having some contact with each other. If there are children involved, then the contact continues.

My hope came from being less reactive and feeling more able to manage drama and conflict- no matter what course a relationship takes.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey lonely in co, Your story is quite familiar.  I suggest focusing on yourself and your needs.  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings about your marriage?  You get the idea.  As Notwendy suggests, we can't tell you what to do, though we can point you in the right direction.  I pretended a lot in my marriage to my BPDxW.  No more.  Now I strive for authenticity.  You can, too.

LuckyJim

[lonely38]

Thank you to all for your helpful tips.  It sounds like for the most part the best thing to do is to disengage.  I have just finished no more walking on eggshells.  I am also seeing a different therapist who is giving me things to say to my BPD husband.  She is telling me that the thing they fear the most is abandonment.  So when I leave the room, remove myself from him emotionally, tell him I am no longer captive to his moods, etc, that is about the only way to get his attention.

After the first night here in AZ being a disaster, he has tried a new tactic, being kinder and more of a servant.  It's funny because I notice his BPD in so many behavior patterns.  He is highly sensitive to lots of noise, traffic, feeling too crowded either in a room or with lots of people.  The other day at lunch he could not quit batting at the flies that were around us as we ate outside.  He still has this crazy stress rash and is dealing with it in all kinds of crazy ways, except to get help for his stress.

I am realizing the only way for me to survive with him in the marriage is to give myself lots of time outs, and maybe some time away from him.  In some ways, it makes me so sad for him and in some ways, I am sick and tired of how he has treated me.

My hope is that by me putting new behaviors of my own into place, that he will at least start to realize I will no longer put up with his emotional abuse toward me.

While I understand the need to validate him and also the idea that giving him rules not to criticize, etc., makes him feel criticized, my hope is that he will also begin to honor these things.

I am tempted to try and talk to him today as he is calmer just do not want to get into another one of his crazy rants.  He just sees himself as the victim.  I guess I will never really have the adult partner or husband I have hoped to have for 38 years.  I know he has some good in him but his BPD behavior has covered over a lot of that good.

I really really really appreciate all of the tips here.  Thank you to everyone and I am open to all suggestions.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi lonely in co,
How are things going?

Cat

[lonely38]

Today is a tough one.  I am on so many meds for depression, anxiety, and now high blood pressure.  I am getting good therapy but the fact that I have to deal with my BPD husband on a daily basis can be very stressful.  I do feel I am getting stronger but it's kinds like a step and a half forward and then a step backward.

I am being proactive at letting my husband I am not longer captive to his moods and when he speaks to me with bullying, demeaning, hurtful words, I will walk away, etc.  This actually seems to help somewhat

At this point, we are kind of living side by side but definitely not together.

Because he has major issues with pornography one of my non negotiables is to have software on his computer to filter out porn.  He has a new computer and has delayed putting the software on,

The only thing I could think of was to tell him calmly I needed him to do it by Tuesday of this next week.  He is having major surgery on Tuesday and I told him I would be unable to take him or bring him home unless he gets the software on his computer.

Also, he has said he will be recovering in the basement.  If things remain the same, I will ask him to stay in the basement until we can get our relationship in a better place.

I have never been to this place but after decades of living like this and a year of living hell with him, I am feeling more than ever that changes are needed.  I am definitely working on me and finding my voice, which I think surprises him.  He has had great success at manipulating me over the years.

My therapist is making me pay myself a dollar each time I say something negative to myself.  She says I need to donate the money to a women's shelter.  This actually helps me to remember to love myself more and give myself credit for working so hard.

I am actually seeing 2 therapists (who would have ever guessed that I would be spending approximately $500 per week on therapy?).  They are both telling me to give myself lots of time outs and maybe nights away.  The one therapist reminded me that if I do not change,  my body is at risk for heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.  I can feel this in my body with all of the stress.

Thank you for checking in,  I am extremely grateful for a site like this one.

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm sorry to hear you're not feeling well, with all the meds, but glad you're getting good advice from your T.

Has your T said anything about your making the escorting of your H to and fro for surgery hinge on his application of the porn filter? I'm not sure how a spouse might interpret that. It could have a more destructive effect on your relationship than you anticipate. I understand that you feel that the porn filter is vitally important, but shouldn't his medical welfare take priority?

I hope that there is another way for you to incentivize his application of the filter.

[braveSun]

Today is a tough one.  I am on so many meds for depression, anxiety, and now high blood pressure.  I am getting good therapy but the fact that I have to deal with my BPD husband on a daily basis can be very stressful.  I do feel I am getting stronger but it's kinds like a step and a half forward and then a step backward.

I am being proactive at letting my husband I am not longer captive to his moods and when he speaks to me with bullying, demeaning, hurtful words, I will walk away, etc.  This actually seems to help somewhat

At this point, we are kind of living side by side but definitely not together.

lonely in co, it's good to see you posting back. I want to congratulate you on your progress with taking better care of yourself. It seems that you have succeeded to affect some changes already and that's very good. I see my own story in yours. I had a difficult relationship with a pwBPD who also had a sex addiction, and it was very hard on my self-esteem. Seeing a therapist has helped me greatly to put boundaries in place. And yes, I did have the feelings of one and half step forward, one step back. For a good while.

Boundaries for me was a learning curve. There is one important truth I had to really experience to understand. I cannot change other people's behavior, but I can protect myself. The boundaries are for me. Primarily for the improvement on my well-being, in contrast to sometimes my wishes that my partner changes for me. At the beginning I had very radical boundaries, and my chosen consequences were very difficult to maintain (on my part). So I had to learn to define more clearly what I wanted, and to apply consequences in a way that was not making it too hard on myself.

For me it was very much a trial and errors process. And a very personal decision too. Someone may want to have this consequence while another person may find that something less difficult but more consistent works best for them. I was with a group of partners of SAs and one of the group therapy task was to define our boundaries and share our progress with our peers. Nobody told us what to decide, and we all went into some adjustment period with various successes.

I had a hard time personally with maintaining my initial boundaries because I felt some difficulties with applying the consequences I chose. The boundaries were tested. Some of the consequences were not reflecting enough my goals, my own values. I had a lot of self-doubts, anger also. So I had a hard time enforcing them.

Also my partner had reactions to the boundaries, and things got tougher before they got better between us. I can relate to the two of you living side by side for sure. It gets better if you are consistent over time and stick with it.

And amp up your self care. Definitely.

Time outs and nights away seem to be good advice. Especially with all the stress going on. Do you have ideas on possibles on that front?


Brave

[Notgoneyet]

 Lonely in co,
Some things in your post jumped out at me because we are struggling w similar issues .

Today is a tough one.  I am on so many meds for depression, anxiety, and now high blood pressure.  I am getting good therapy but the fact that I have to deal with my BPD husband on a daily basis can be very stressful.  I do feel I am getting stronger but it's kinds like a step and a half forward and then a step backward.
 A step forward is progress & in the right direction   It doesn't need to be perfect ,give yourself the credit due,
GoodJob!                                                                                                                   
I am being proactive at letting my husband I am not longer captive to his moods and when he speaks to me with bullying, demeaning, hurtful words, I will walk away, etc.  This actually seems to help somewhat
Very good job here as well ! That one simple act brought so much peace back to my home. Mind you, after quite a few miles of walking on my part, !

At this point, we are kind of living side by side but definitely not together.
 This is hard to do some days but will improve with the good work you are doing

Because he has major issues with pornography one of my non negotiables is to have software on his computer to filter out porn.  He has a new computer and has delayed putting the software on,
 SA (acting out w other people) with my uBPDw of 35 yrs took me to my knees 2 years ago and I finally put up a non negotiable boundary of No More Acting Out or I'm gone. If its important to you (make it happen). Intimacy can never happen while your SO is in active SA

The only thing I could think of was to tell him calmly I needed him to do it by Tuesday of this next week.  He is having major surgery on Tuesday and I told him I would be unable to take him or bring him home unless he gets the software on his computer.
 It's a bit manipulative but if it works I say OK They never seem to have a problem manipulating us, do they?. He does have a choice to get another ride.

Also, he has said he will be recovering in the basement.  If things remain the same, I will ask him to stay in the basement until we can get our relationship in a better place.
 That's a good plan that may give you just a little breathing room that you need for more self care ! 

I have never been to this place but after decades of living like this and a year of living hell with him, I am feeling more than ever that changes are needed.  I am definitely working on me and finding my voice, which I think surprises him.  He has had great success at manipulating me over the years.
 It can change the whole marriage/ relationship for the better. They are experts at manipulating but you can stop that as well!
 I have found great healing in S-Anon 12 step groups have you ever attended a meeting?

Keep up the great self care & other work, NGY
 PS. Sorry about the quotes being mixed with my comments ,still figuring out how all this works & I'm a mechanic not a windows/word guy! give me another year or so,

[lonely38]

Thank you for your replies everyone.  I read through all of them for tips and for encouragement.  I am remaining with my decisions of not taking my BPD husband to surgery unless he gets a porn filter on his computer.  While his surgery is needed,  it is not necessary.  If it were something like heart or cancer surgery, that would feel cruel to me.  I explained to him that my needs were important just as his needs to have someone drive him to surgery are important.  I told him we need to work toward a partnership.  That for a long time I have been way too focused on him and now I am focused on him.  He is pretty much talking and that is hard for me.  But I also remember that initially for the BPD person, the change of behavior is a big adjustment.  In other ways my husband continues to stay in the relationship.  He offered to make me breakfast this am and even talked for a few sentences.  I thought about asking if he wanted to talk but my heart says it is not the time yet for deep discussion. 

This is the toughest work I have ever done in my life.  Lots of ups and downs but prayers and hope that the ups will become more common and the downs less common.  We will see... .

[Cat Familiar]

It's elective surgery, not something life-threatening, so I understand your point. It sounds like you've got his attention.

How does talking with him usually go? Good that you're respecting your needs there too, since you don't feel ready for a deep discussion. 

Cat