The Gap Between Theory and Practice

[Depression = 72% of members]

This page picks up from an earlier intro thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330296.0

Okay, so, after saying that I didn't know what to say and I'm not ready to talk, it's suddenly come to me what I want to talk about... .

I am in a relationship with a man with BPD. We have been together two years. We live separately, but he spends three nights a week at my house.

I have read numerous books on BPD. I know, in the abstract, what to do and what not to do. I have written myself a list of reminders (e.g. "don't defend," "remember it's not about me and try not to personalise," "focus on the feelings and don't get into pointless debates about facts," "resist projective identification" etc etc). And I read these to myself at least twice a day. When he isn't with me, I feel hopeful and confident about the future and about taking responsibility for *my* behaviour and emotions. But... .

When he's there and he's yelling at me accusing me of ridiculous things that I have never done and never would do, acting like I am an irresponsible, untrustworthy, dishonest, lying piece of work... .It all goes out the window. I find it so so hard to remember all the things I need to remember. I find it so so hard to sit there listening to false accusations and a character assassination and, well, injustice. I find it so hard to bear the injustice.

In the abstract, I can tell myself things like "what he's really saying is that *he* can't trust me, not that *I* am untrustworthy" etc. But, when confronted with it, when in the midst of it, when bombarded with it... .How do I hold on to all this abstract knowledge? How do I stop the defensive part of me from rising up and saying "I will *not* be accused of these things! This is *not* who I am!" How? How do you guys manage this?

[Bnonymous]

This page picks up from an earlier intro thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330296.0

Okay, so, after saying that I didn't know what to say and I'm not ready to talk, it's suddenly come to me what I want to talk about... .

I am in a relationship with a man with BPD. We have been together two years. We live separately, but he spends three nights a week at my house.

I have read numerous books on BPD. I know, in the abstract, what to do and what not to do. I have written myself a list of reminders (e.g. "don't defend," "remember it's not about me and try not to personalise," "focus on the feelings and don't get into pointless debates about facts," "resist projective identification" etc etc). And I read these to myself at least twice a day. When he isn't with me, I feel hopeful and confident about the future and about taking responsibility for *my* behaviour and emotions. But... .

When he's there and he's yelling at me accusing me of ridiculous things that I have never done and never would do, acting like I am an irresponsible, untrustworthy, dishonest, lying piece of work... .It all goes out the window. I find it so so hard to remember all the things I need to remember. I find it so so hard to sit there listening to false accusations and a character assassination and, well, injustice. I find it so hard to bear the injustice.

In the abstract, I can tell myself things like "what he's really saying is that *he* can't trust me, not that *I* am untrustworthy" etc. But, when confronted with it, when in the midst of it, when bombarded with it... .How do I hold on to all this abstract knowledge? How do I stop the defensive part of me from rising up and saying "I will *not* be accused of these things! This is *not* who I am!" How? How do you guys manage this?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

it certainly can all take some practice... .

hi Bnonymous, and

im glad you decided to reach out and tell us more. a strong support system and good feedback are really critical in these relationships.

how long have you been practicing these tools, and are you practicing with others in your life?

[DoubleBP2018]

Bnonymous, I know exactly what you're going through, and it's really frustrating.

I started by simply responding something like "I see this is really upsetting you". I did this for a long time, over a year. Obviously a very long term strategy. Eventually I noticed that she was making fewer wild accusations and exaggerations. I also think she is a lot less mad at me on a day to day basis than she used to be.

I realized that when I stood up for myself I was pouring fuel on the fire. Now that I've seen some positive results it's getting easier to stop myself from responding when she goes nuts and I'm able to start thinking of ways to validate her feelings.

I confess that sometimes I just can't take it and I'll just say NO to whatever she accuses me of. When that happens my next step is to find a way to extricate myself from the situation before I make it worse.

DoubleBP

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, Once Removed.

I'm not sure how long I've been practicing the tools. I've been reading BPD books and trying for several months, but, the more I read, the more I learn and the more I try, so... .It's been gradual. And I'm still struggling. I'm a fairly secure and confident person and don't generally take things personally, but the bombardment of accusations wears me down and I find it really hard to stay calm, take a step back, and think with my logical brain. I am finding that I forget everything I've learned and planned when in the midst of one of his tirades. And that's hard for me, because I tend to be pretty laid back and detached and I'm not used to feeling so reactive.

I don't have much real life support and, much as I hate to admit this (and hear codependent alarm bells when I say it), I am letting myself get more and more isolated for fear of his reaction to me spending time with other people and for fear of their judging me for staying with him. I have found bits and bobs of what I've learnt proving useful and relevant in other relationships, but, generally, it's not needed with other people - I am used to people taking my word for things, trusting me, listening to me, being willing to negotiate and compromise and things like that, and interactions with others seem to run smoothly and with mutual respect and consideration. I'm out of my depth here. I'm finding myself reacting with my emotional brain instead of my logical one and it's a new and scary experience for me (a taster of what life is like for him, I suppose!). I am trying to think positively and see it as a learning experience that will ultimately help me become a more patient and less judgmental person.

One good thing though, I have noticed that many of his attacks actually result in my self-esteem and confidence being reinforced instead of undermined, because they work almost like devil's advocate. I defend myself (to myself, even when succeeding in not defending myself to him) and those defenses work like self-talk and affirmations and leave me feeling stronger than ever. I don't know if it will always work that way though, or if it will eventually start seeping in. I feel pretty well-defended, stable and secure most of the time. But, on the occasions where it goes on for several weeks without a break, I do start to fear it might be getting to me and that I am losing my inner equilibrium. This is usually temporary, but it scares me.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, DoubleBP.

I'm glad you've had some success with applying the tools. And I'm relieved to see that it can take time, as I feel like a bit of a tortoise here.

One thing that frustrates me is that I think I'm applying them inconsistently (and I know that consistency is really important). At times when I'm feeling stronger and have had chance to catch a breath between outbursts, I can respond with calmness, detachment/depersonalising, empathy, and validation. At times where it's felt relentless, I end up going back to pointlessly defending and denying. It's frustrating because I really want to be consistent and I really want to stick to using the tools, but, sometimes, I just emotionally react and really struggle to step back.

[once removed]

think of the tools more in terms of a lifestyle change rather than putting out fires. the long and short of it is really about managing conflict in a mature and healthy way, one that can also create a healthier environment in your marriage, build trust, love (even when sometimes its "tough" love), connection. its an adjustment, for sure. you have to personalize it, in a way that works for you, and clicks, comfortably.

so its not, for example, about "how can i listen to and validate this person who is yelling at me". its about being an emotionally centered person who knows the mature way to resolve, not avoid or escalate, conflict. thats where we get concepts like Wisemind, the synthesis of logical and emotional brain.

i know that all sounds like moving a mountain. youll get it.

I don't have much real life support and, much as I hate to admit this (and hear codependent alarm bells when I say it), I am letting myself get more and more isolated for fear of his reaction to me spending time with other people and for fear of their judging me for staying with him.

in that sense, i am glad you found us. you dont have to do this alone. i hope youll stick around, make yourself at home, and part of the family here.

what do you tell friends and family? what do they say?

hows your health? you do sound exhausted and like its getting harder to hold up  .

[Bnonymous]

My friends and family are respectful of the fact that I am an adult and must make my own choices, but they don't like him and they don't like how he treats me and they wish we'd break up. So I've pretty much stopped talking to them about the relationship now, because I know that it worries them and that doesn't seem fair.

I am exhausted and run down at the moment. But it's not always like this. We have had a particularly bad few months. At the start of August, he went into an inpatient detox program for alcohol addiction (this was stressful in itself, but we both felt hopeful and positive about it). He stayed there two weeks, then was sober for two weeks after coming out. Then a member of my family fell ill and was rushed to hospital and I had to divide my attention, time, and care between them and him. This was immensely triggering for him and he started drinking again the day I got the middle-of-the-night phonecall.

He blamed me for his relapse for a while (though I know it's not about me and that he is responsible for his own behaviour, and being blamed didn't get to me). He has stopped blaming me now and is taking some responsibility for continuing to drink (albeit it in a defensive way). He is now back at the level he was drinking at before detox.

I know he feels rubbish about it. I know he feels disappointed, hopeless, powerless and ashamed. I am trying to take a positive view, e.g. "It's a huge disappointment for you and I understand how low you feel, but remember you did it once and, when you're ready, you can do it again. This is a bump in the road - a painful, upsetting, disappointing bump, but a bump nonetheless - it doesn't have to be the end of the road" kind of attitude.

But it's been a roller coaster for both of us. And the shame he feels over the relapse is getting him down and spreading into every other area of his life. He is finding it impossible to feel good about himself or his life right now (he feels like he's failed once, so he will *always* fail). This means all the BPD behaviours are at full blast and there's hardly any break from them. He has been defensive, paranoid, angry and suffering toxic shame pretty much constantly since he relapsed, so neither of us are getting a break or chance to catch our breath.

Before this happened, there were breaks. There were days of calm and relative stability when he could show mind-blowing courage and self-awareness that I really admired. But I haven't seen that side of him for months now. There hasn't been *any* time to just relax and enjoy each other's company, and I guess that's why I'm backsliding a bit - because I'm exhausted.

[Skip]

Very good comments here. I encourage you to work with others to learn these lifestyle skills. It takes practice. They will be with you for life.

One thing that is very important but sometimes overlooked is your need for a plan and to make good life decisions.  Your man has struggles. You can learn tools and provide leadership, but ultimately (and in time) he must want to make progress and work with you.  Without this, you have very little.

You are investing. You want him to do that to.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, Skip.

I agree it's important that the investment is not all one-sided. And I do feel that (until recent events) he was investing too. When triggered, he would be accusatory, paranoid, jealous, possessive, hyper-critical, and even abusive. But, once the emotional dysregulation passed, he would show genuine remorse and a will to make things better. Often he would even take great pains to make sure I didn't blame myself, to tell me that he didn't really believe the cruel things he'd said about me and that he'd really been talking about himself (though he'd "forget" all that next time he was triggered). He would look at why he did/said/felt what he did and would try to find ways to catch a flare-up early on and prevent it progressing. When he *could* take responsibility, he *did*, and that's why I stayed - I admired the courage and self-awareness and maturity with which he would examine and own his actions retrospectively - it made all the difference in the world to me.

Also it was entirely his choice and decision to go into detox - no one pressured or even advised him; it came from him. His reasons were that he hated being dependent and so didn't want to be enslaved to a substance, he hated how ill it made him feel, he hated how it interfered with his ability to think, and he wanted to live to build a future for himself and a future with me. He showed great courage and determination in going into detox (which was a very daunting experience for him) and it impressed me.

But these last couple of months have been different. There have been no episodes of self-awareness or consideration for me. There has been very little retrospective responsibility taking. I used to firmly believe that he was dedicated to working through his issues and finding healthier ways to handle his emotions. Now... .I see no sign of it and it's a matter of faith - it's a matter of reminding myself of how he could be and trusting that he will get back on track there once the shame loosens its grip enough for him to think clearly again. Sometimes I am scared that won't happen. Because, yes, I am only here if/because I believe that he is investing too. If I stop believing that then I will have to re-evaluate everything.

[once removed]

I am trying to take a positive view, e.g. "It's a huge disappointment for you and I understand how low you feel, but remember you did it once and, when you're ready, you can do it again. This is a bump in the road - a painful, upsetting, disappointing bump, but a bump nonetheless - it doesn't have to be the end of the road" kind of attitude.

do you communicate this to him? its a great, strong attitude. shaming him or showing disappointment (though i imagine you feel it) would only reinforce self negative beliefs. you cant make him want to get better, but for someone with BPD traits, having a supportive rock in their life can make all the difference in the world as far as a positive trajectory.

youre going to need that in your life too. in addition to bpdfamily, its a good idea to find a good therapist with an understanding of what youre up against, and its possible that your husband will follow your lead/example.

There hasn't been *any* time to just relax and enjoy each other's company

what sorts of things do the two of you usually like to do together?

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, Onceremoved. And thank you for your question; thinking about the answer has given me a bit of a lift. :-)

Hiking, mostly. We both love the outdoors and we both enjoy the freedom we feel when walking through the mountains. He has the greatest appreciation for nature that I've ever seen and it's really infectious - I love the joy he can find in anything from an oddly shaped tree to a hunting bird of prey, and I find it makes me look at the natural world with renewed appreciation.

We've been stuck indoors for the past week, as my dog is recovering from her spay surgery and needs to be supervised so she doesn't worry the stitches (she hates the cone of shame!). She's seeing the vet again on Monday and then should hopefully be cleared as back to normal and we can get out and about again - it will probably do us the world of good!

In the meantime, I have found that watching nature documentaries together is really helpful. We can start watching feeling grumpy and unenthusiastic, then some wonderful trivia about a particular animal's evolutionary adaptations can wake us up a bit and get us interested and engaged. It's great to take time to focus on something other than ourselves and curiosity makes a great motivator. :-)

[Radcliff]

Welcome!  You are getting some great advice here.  One of the most powerful things about this community is being able to share our success and failures at using the tools.  It's messy business sometimes, and as you say, often when we're in the thick of it, it's hard to do what we'd like to do.  It gets easier with practice.

BPD symptoms tend to get worse with life changes or stress.  Since he's been in detox, he's recently made a big life change.

You are absolutely right that you need to avoid isolation.  bpdfamily is an important resource, but you need in-person support as well.  I'd highly recommend going to several Al-anon meetings and finding one or two that you feel at home at.  Like bpdfamily, I suspect you'll arrive a little wary, but quickly start to feel the support around you and safe to share.

RC

[Bnonymous]

Hi Radcliff,

Thanks for your reply.

It was a life-style change after detox, but, as I said earlier, sadly, he has reverted back to how he was before (drinking daily when he wakes up). So the biggest issue at the moment is the shame and disappointment he feels over having "failed". I am being super careful not to feed that shame, and am emphasising the amazing strength and courage it took for him to go to detox in the first place and that those things are still in him and will help him to try again when he feels ready to. This is one that I didn't need to revisit the tools for, because I instinctively understand the vicious circle effects that shame can cause and how our best chance of picking ourselves up again when we fall is to forgive ourselves for falling and remind ourselves that we have picked ourselves up before and can do it again.

(That reminds me, I forgot to answer onceremoved's question: yes, I am communicating this attitude to him. I want him to be proud of his efforts and success, rather than view a setback as failure and fall into a shame cycle - so I try and encourage pride and resilience, whilst also recognising what a blow the setback is for him and validating his feelings about that.)

I've looked into AA family meetings and, sadly, there isn't one accessible to me. The nearest is over a four hour trip (each way) by public transport and I don't have access to a car. The lady on the phone on the national number for my country recommended I try their online support groups as an alternative. I haven't done so yet, but I will look into it.

[once removed]

Hiking, mostly. We both love the outdoors and we both enjoy the freedom we feel when walking through the mountains. He has the greatest appreciation for nature that I've ever seen and it's really infectious - I love the joy he can find in anything from an oddly shaped tree to a hunting bird of prey, and I find it makes me look at the natural world with renewed appreciation.

that sounds lovely! its good for couples to get the time to do the things that remind each other of why they were attracted to each other in the first place, and connect. i hope its a big priority when the two of you are able to get out.

In the meantime, I have found that watching nature documentaries together is really helpful. We can start watching feeling grumpy and unenthusiastic, then some wonderful trivia about a particular animal's evolutionary adaptations can wake us up a bit and get us interested and engaged. It's great to take time to focus on something other than ourselves and curiosity makes a great motivator. :-)

great idea, one you can expand on. it might sound trite, but consider talking to him about the stuff hes most interested in, has strong opinions on, listen with enthusiasm, flirt. build his confidence a bit.

what do you think?

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, onceremoved. I do that as much as I can, not just as a tactic, but because I genuinely enjoy hearing people talk about their interested and passions, especially him.

We had a good few days, but he's currently in a phase of putting me in damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don't no-win situations, rewriting history, changing goalposts etc. I think I'm handling it okay so far, but I hope it doesn't go on for too long, as I am already starting to feel drained.

[once removed]

he's currently in a phase of putting me in damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don't no-win situations, rewriting history, changing goalposts etc.

whats going on? what sorts of goalposts is he changing?

[Bnonymous]

It's just little things, really, but lots of them. As one example, I told him I've arranged to go to a museum with my daughter tomorrow (she knew he'd probably ask to come along and said it's okay with her if he does). Text message conversation went like this:

Him: Aw, you know I love that museum, can't I come with you?

Me: Of course you can, sweetheart, that'd be nice.

Him: Okay.

[an hour later]

Him: Can't we go just the two of us?

Me: No, because I've already arranged to take C - I'm not going to let her down.

Him: Well, I'm not coming if she goes.

Me: That's up to you, sweetheart. Me and C are going to the museum on Saturday - you're welcome to come with us, but it's your choice.

Him: You've let me down now! I was looking forward to that and now you've disappointed me!

Me: You are welcome to come with us on Saturday. Or I can take C as planned and then you and I could go another day.

Him: I don't want to go another day - you said we could go on Saturday and I was looking forward to it. And now I've got to stay in by myself. You shouldn't have got my hopes up. That wasn't very nice.



And so on. When he finally realised that I wasn't going to give in and break my word to my daughter, he then started ignoring me altogether. This sort of thing happens a lot. It'll blow over quickly - it always does.

But it's been lots of little things like this over the last week or so, where we agree to xyz, he then decides he wants uvx instead, then says I've let him down for delivering what we originally agreed. It can be a bit tiring, but, like I say, it'll blow over soon.

[once removed]

its hard to find much room for error there, bnonymous, you communicated well. i think a lot of us would have JADEd off the bat with "youve let me down", and "you shouldnt have gotten my hopes up".

does he make your daughter (or anyone else) a point of contention often?

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, once removed. I find it a lot easier to keep my cool and resist JADEing when it's a text conversation - when it's just written words, I have the space to step back and breathe. It might have been a different story if it had been face-to-face and I'd had to deal with accusatory tone and glaring as well. I try to respond the same face-to-face but it's a lot harder then.

He tries to make her a bone of contention, but without success. Reflecting on my behaviour in the relationship, I can see that my boundaries are firm when it comes to not allowing anyone to pressure/push/blackmail me into breaking arrangements or routines that I have with my daughter. If you think of my time and attention as a pie, he has frequently tried to get me to give him some of her slice as well as his own - but this is something he has never succeeded at.

In contrast, he often is successful at getting me to give him most (almost all) of my friends' slices of the time-and-attention pie. He will go to great lengths to stop me spending time with friends, including threatening to break up with me and even threatening suicide. I have noticed that I don't even try to make plans with friends anymore, because I don't feel I have the mental/emotional energy to deal with his reactions to that.

I'm finding it interesting to see how I have boundaries in place when it comes to not letting anyone interfere in my relationship with my daughter, but it seems I don't have similar boundaries when it comes to my friendships. Maybe I ought to look at that... .

[Radcliff]

Bnonymous, you did a fantastic job at communication in that text conversation!  Supportive but firm, totally nonreactive.  A perfect score!  I understand how much easier it is in text conversations -- I, too, have a much easier time when I have space to think.  Part of what we can gain from experience is the ability to pause for a second or several seconds, take a breath or two, in face-to-face conversations.  Another phrase we can use when appropriate, when we don't necessarily agree but don't feel it's vital to disagree, is, "you might be right."  That phrase is exceptionally useful at defusing situations.  (It would not have been appropriate for that text conversation, though, since he was totally off-base, and it's evident just by reading the conversation from the beginning).

I'm finding it interesting to see how I have boundaries in place when it comes to not letting anyone interfere in my relationship with my daughter, but it seems I don't have similar boundaries when it comes to my friendships. Maybe I ought to look at that... .

Excellent insight.  I think we're just going to sit back and cheerlead you while you do all the heavy thinking! ;)  What friendship or friend activity would you most like to rejuvenate?  What's your next action step?

RC

[once removed]

I'm finding it interesting to see how I have boundaries in place when it comes to not letting anyone interfere in my relationship with my daughter, but it seems I don't have similar boundaries when it comes to my friendships. Maybe I ought to look at that... .

as you evidently know, our boundaries come from our values. it stands to reason that as a mother, your daughter would take greater precedent than friends. we can afford to be a little more flexible with friends, and of course, there are times (within reason) that our significant other would come first.

so lets look at it. whats going on when it comes to your boundaries with friendships?

[Bnonymous]

Thank you both for your replies.

I think once removed has kinda hit the nail on the head.

My relationship with my daughter is more important to me than avoiding pwBPD acting out. And I have responsibilities to my daughter, and that is something I could not compromise on without losing integrity.

However, I don't feel I have responsibilities towards friends (especially as they're not close friends, more like acquaintances) so I don't experience a loss of integrity by blowing them off. And, being honest with myself, my relationships with them are less important to me than avoiding pwBPD acting out. And those are the differences.

The mere suggestion of going out with friends results in:

"You're going to cheat"
"Who are you really going out with?"
"I bet you've met some bloke on the internet and are planning a dirty little hook-up, you slag!"
"I bet you're going to a pub to get drunk cos that's the kind of person you are - it's no good for me being with someone who behaves like that" (projection - he's an alcoholic and I'm pretty much teetotal)
"Why can't I come with you? Any normal person would want their partner with them. You're not normal. I don't want to be with a weirdo" (when my friends didn't know him and none of them were bringing their partners)
"If you do this, I wash my hands of you"
"This is the last straw for me with you. I'm not taking any more of your crap. You're selfish. You're not a proper partner."
"I might as well stay in and slit my wrists then. You can decide whether or not you think I'm joking. I might be joking, I might not - it's up to you if you want to take that risk".
"Or maybe I'll find out where you're going and turn up to surprise you and catch you out. And, if I find you with another bloke, I'll smash both your faces in".

I know it's not healthy to let him manipulate me like this, but... .

I only have a limited amount of emotional energy and so I have to pick my battles. And this is one that I choose not to fight. I would quite like to go out for a coffee and a natter with friends sometimes. But the cost of that in terms of how he'd react just seems too high.

I realise that, for many people, loss of time with friends would strike at their mental health and sense of self, but it's not that important to me. It's frustrating in the minor kind of way that not being able to have lots of chocolate whilst on a diet is frustrating, not a soul-shattering loss.

I probably sound like an ice queen now, but I wanted to be honest with myself. I didn't want to make excuses for why I "can't" see friends or "can't" set boundaries there, because I know that isn't true - I could see friends and set boundaries there if these things were important enough to me for me to chose to fight the battle, but they're not and I choose not to fight that battle. There are limits to my emotional energy and resources and I need to prioritise the things that matter to me most: time with friends isn't on that list.

[Bnonymous]

Sorry to double-post, but I'm guessing that your next question would be how I respond to the kind of things he says. Similarly to the museum example, but a bit of JADEing sometimes creeps in. I don't back down, because I know that would be teaching him that this stuff works. If I've said I'm going out with friends, then I do; he shouts at me a lot, "breaks up" for a couple of weeks then comes back, then brings it back up every so often when he's in a mood about something else.

But, as you know, I now choose not to make plans in the first place, so I don't have to deal with all this. He might or might not realise that's happening, but it's less of an obvious "win" for him than it would be if I changed/cancelled plans that I'd already made.

My responses vary. I'll provide different examples to the different things he says.

Him: "You're going to cheat" and "I bet you've met some bloke on the internet and are planning a dirty little hook-up, you slag!" and similar.

Me (strong mood): I'm not going to cheat, sweetheart. I understand how you felt when ex-girlfriends cheated on you, and it's understandable that you don't want to risk that happening again, but every person and relationship is different, and I am not going to cheat on you. I am with you because you are the person I love and you are the person I choose to be with. I'm not interested in anyone else.

or

Me (weak mood): You ought to know me better than that by now. After everything we've been through together, I have proved my trustworthiness, loyalty, and faithfulness. If you still don't trust me after all this time, that's your problem, not mine.

Him: "Who are you really going out with?"

Me (any mood): I'm going with A and L.

Him: "I bet you're going to a pub to get drunk cos that's the kind of person you are - it's no good for me being with someone who behaves like that" (projection - he's an alcoholic and I'm pretty much teetotal)

Me (strong mood): I know the thought of me drinking scares you. I know you've had bad experiences with drinkers before. You've explained this and it really helped me to understand. I don't plan to drink, but, if I did drink, it wouldn't be to excess or to a point where it would change my personality or behaviour.

or

Me (weak mood): Look, you know I don't drink, so please stop making me out to have a problem I don't have. But, if I wanted to drink, I would have every right to - I'm a grown adult.

Him: "Why can't I come with you? Any normal person would want their partner with them. You're not normal. I don't want to be with a weirdo" (when my friends didn't know him and none of them were bringing their partners)

Me (any mood): Maybe other people would want to bring their partners, but you are not in a relationship with them, you are in a relationship with me. I enjoy being with you, but I am not going to invite you to come out with us, because A and L invited me for a girly chat and it wouldn't be fair on them for me to invite you along too. Imagine how you would feel if I invited them in our outings. If you don't want to be with me because of this, that is up to you, but I am not going to change my mind or my plans.

Him: "If you do this, I wash my hands of you" and "This is the last straw for me with you. I'm not taking any more of your crap. You're selfish. You're not a proper partner."

Me (any mood): I am doing this. How you choose to respond to this is up to you. You have a right to end the relationship if you choose to. I think that would be sad for both of us, but it's your choice.

Him: "I might as well stay in and slit my wrists then. You can decide whether or not you think I'm joking. I might be joking, I might not - it's up to you if you want to take that risk".

Me (any mood): It's not okay to joke about things like that. I will not make myself ill with worry by trying to second-guess you on this. If you really feel you are a danger to yourself, then I suggest you make an emergency doctor's appointment today. If there are things getting you down that much, then maybe we could talk about them when I get back?

Him: "Or maybe I'll find out where you're going and turn up to surprise you and catch you out. And, if I find you with another bloke, I'll smash both your faces in".

Me (strong mood): I will not be with another bloke - I love you and am loyal to you. I will be with A and L, like I said I would be. I can hear you're anxious and upset about this (maybe we could talk about that some time soon?) but it's not okay to threaten violence under any circumstances.

or

Me (weak mood): [completely ignores the comment]

or

Me (VERY weak mood, frazzled and exhausted and losing control): Fine, you do that. Turn up and make a fool out of yourself if you want to. I am SO past caring!

As you can see, my ability to keep my calm and resist JADEing varies (depending on how exhausted I am, mostly). Like I say, the spending-time-with-friends thing is a battle I've stopped fighting now. But, generally, I wish I could be more consistent in my responses, and am working on that.

[eeps]

Bnonymous,
reading your story, i feel like i sympathize with a lot of what you're going through. and it seems like you're doing a really amazing job of being self-aware and learning new ways of dealing with difficult times with your partner. like you, when i'm exhausted or stressed out, i have a much harder time keeping my cool and not JADEing
 

[once removed]

so it sounds, like many of us, that you have a jealous partner.

we have a workshop in development here about "how to deal with a jealous partner" that you might gleam some tips from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

my ex was very jealous, in particular over my relationships with the opposite sex. my attitude at the time was more or less that she should get over it, because she had friends of the opposite sex that she hung out with by herself, and i couldnt have cared less because i knew them, the situation, and trusted it completely. we clashed, she had a double standard, and in fairness, i was kinda secretive.

we kinda came to a head over it, because she wanted me to cut out a female friend (one whom id been friends with on the internet, would never meet and had no interest in meeting, but ive always been adamantly opposed to the idea that i need to cut someone off to satiate a partners insecurity) and she talked to her psychologist about it. now, i wasnt there, and dont know exactly what he said. but reading between the lines, i think that he validated her point of view, and that he suggested that for the most part, serious romantic partners should primarily (or even exclusively) have "couple friends". by and large, one couple that is friends with another couple, or at the very least, one couple that are both friends with a party of one, and trust is built.

i think there can be room for exception between two consenting and trusting partners, and im still not inclined to cut someone out because they are single and dont know my partner well, but my views aside, i take a lot from the point.

we are wired for bonding. we need friends, and an identity outside our relationship. i hear that the threat of violence or self harm over the prospect of you hanging out with an acquaintance is not a hill you want to die on, but i think we can run into trouble when we get into FOG, and i think theres a middle ground.

focus, where you can, on making friends, the two of you, with other couples. if you have single lady friends, make an effort to introduce and include him, and build trust. the result could enhance your relationship, your independent life, and build trust between the two of you in the long run.

what do you think?

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, eeps! :-)

Once removed, thank you for replying.

I don't agree with the therapist. I think, in most healthy relationships, it's important for each person to have areas of their life which don't include their partner and I think that having at least some separate friendships can be a part of that. To me, the idea of a relationship where all friendships are "couples friendships" (especially shared ones) sounds a bit enmeshed and I, personally, would find it suffocating.

But different communities, cultures, and individuals have different expectations around these things. I know that in the circles I move in it is usual for most friendships to be separate and only a few shared. I'm a working class, hetero, Brit, and even our soap operas depict her going out with the girls, while he goes out with the lads, right through from teenagers to pensioners. It's what I am used to (though, please don't get me wrong, "normal" has no influence on me - I think it's all about individuals and what works for them).

He met one acquaintance once. She was passing by while he was visiting and knocked the door. She only stayed half an hour. Immediately afterwards, he wanted to know what every word and look from her had "meant" (super paranoid). He complained to me about every aspect of her appearance, demeanor, accent, laugh, everything. He decided (groundlessly) that she was bad for me. He said that, if she knocked my door again while he was visiting, he'd tell her straight what he thought of her.

He can't maintain his own friendships for more than a few weeks (so never reaches the point of real friendship with anyone) - he always splits the person and then turns vindictive, vengeful, and sometimes even violent, towards them.

So, all things considered, I think joint friendships would be a disaster for us. I think I'd end up caught in the middle when he turned against the person/people. And I'm not willing to go there. Thank you for your suggestion though. Your posts are really helpful and I hope you don't feel that I'm dismissing your advice - I appreciate it; I just think that this particular route wouldn't work for me/us.

Thank you for the link - I've had a quick skim-read and it looks interesting and informative - I will read it through properly when I have chance.


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