Need to find a piece from this puzzle

[snowglobe]

New topics don’t come so easily and readily anymore. I’ve been on this board for way too long. Yesterday was our s11 birthday. In our family and culture it’s always celebrated with a Big Bang, guests parties and presents. If even just for the day the person is given love and affection. True to his nature unpdh ruined this one for me, and almost for s11. Two days before I accidentally shattered by phone screen. He is always critical and judging, from “you pushed the car door to hard, to you are clumsy, etc”. Every move is being dissected, criticized and lectured. He “punished me “ for breaking my screen by putting me on that morning in front of impossible choice “either you or I go to s11 party”. I haven’t seen my kid for 4 days before due to the travel with uBPDh for work. No way I was gonna miss it. So I just went, my dad came along to help me. I put my pain away for the time being and concentrated on my s11’s party which I planed and delivered. He was delighted. The money came from our joint account. One can say he earned that money, so he participated too. When I came back, it was time to drive d15 to competition, which I did. Again, stashed my pain and disappointment and carried on. I want to start living like he doesn’t exist. If he doesn’t, then I have no hopes or expectations, I can’t get hurt. I also notice that feeling “of being a single parent” triggers me. It makes me depressed. I want to feel uBPDh’s love and attention for the kids, as I probably view them as my extension.
Now to the meat of my question:  we are never allowed to have fun, if he doesn’t approve. If I’m happy for any of my person reason and he isn’t, he immediately flies off the rails and has to ruin my mood. It’s worse with birthdays and celebrations. He either picks a fight right before or doesn’t show up. Those are “our bdays”, when it comes to his food he was always as calm as a clam and went out of his way with flowers and presents. What am I missing? Who is he punishing? And why? Did any of you experience the same treatment?

[Notwendy]

I think this is common. It's similar to a toddler being jealous of a sibling's birthday and wanting to be the center of attention. I don't think it is that your H  has some drive to ruin your fun but that the fuss isn't about him. For a toddler, the way to become the center of attention is to act up. Negative attention is better than lack of attention to a toddler.

A toddler can't rationalize someone's attention to a special occasion and neither can someone who isn't able to self soothe and regulate his emotions. Your H wants your focus on him. He's OK with you leaving your kids with your parents and focusing only on him. It isn't just a birthday, it's when you have an exam, or something you are focused on. He sees this as an absence of attention. It isn't about you not being able to be happy to him, it is that when your attention isn't on him, he perceives it from "victim mode" you are doing something to him. When he is in victim mode he perceives you as persecutor and then feels justified in "punishing you" for "causing" his discomfort. He "acts up" to gain your attention back on him, like a toddler who is jealous of a sibling.

[snowglobe]

I think this is common. It's similar to a toddler being jealous of a sibling's birthday and wanting to be the center of attention. I don't think it is that your H  has some drive to ruin your fun but that the fuss isn't about him. For a toddler, the way to become the center of attention is to act up. Negative attention is better than lack of attention to a toddler.

A toddler can't rationalize someone's attention to a special occasion and neither can someone who isn't able to self soothe and regulate his emotions. Your H wants your focus on him. He's OK with you leaving your kids with your parents and focusing only on him. It isn't just a birthday, it's when you have an exam, or something you are focused on. He sees this as an absence of attention. It isn't about you not being able to be happy to him, it is that when your attention isn't on him, he perceives it from "victim mode" you are doing something to him. When he is in victim mode he perceives you as persecutor and then feels justified in "punishing you" for "causing" his discomfort. He "acts up" to gain your attention back on him, like a toddler who is jealous of a sibling.

Not Wendy, thank you for being here for me. My therapy session isn’t until wednesday, and I’m not sure how to behave towards him after this “stunt” he pulled again. I’m sad and disappointed he even thought of “either you come to s11’s bday or I go”, I don’t even have justification for that. I know he is triggered by my mother damaging his expensive car, which he wasn’t able to get rid off of. I know d15 asked for expensive coat, it gets brutally cold where we live, I know I shattered the phone, which was probably the last straw that broke camel’s back. I had this conversation about me working just last week, his answer when he is calm and composed: “no, I don’t want you to work until you get your full degree because my salary is so high, that the peanuts you will make will go straight for taxes, it doesn’t make sense for our family financially, on the other hand once you have completed your education, it might be beneficial for our family”. I’m not a snob, I would love to get distracted and interact with other people. He doesn’t want me to. But when he is angry or disregulated he yells at me to go and find the “lowest” job, (not sure what he means as any labour in my opinion is honourable) and see what it feels like. He gave our s11 almost monthly salary in a cash present. He was running around happily, while I came home exhausted after terminator mode I pulled all day.
He is yet to wake up, I don’t know if I should carry on as if nothing happened?
Show my sadness and grieve?
Just ignore him?

[Cat Familiar]

So he "punishes" you by making you choose which one of you is to attend your son's party.  

You feel bad, but you attend and your son is delighted with what you've planned. (Seems like the one who is actually "punished" is your son, because his father is too busy having a "hissy fit" to be there to support him on his birthday.)

You later put aside your disappointment and take your daughter to the competition. The idea of feeling like a single parent is really upsetting as you want your husband to be loving and supportive to your children.

What you're missing, in my opinion, is that he can choose to behave however he wants, and he does, without regard for anyone else's feelings.

Your choice is whether or not this upsets you. He's done this over and over and over. And every time you get upset.

If I were in your shoes, I would vow not to be emotionally affected by this behavior. If you don't get upset when he does this sort of thing, then he's not getting a reaction from you and he won't be as likely to repeat that behavior in the future.

[snowglobe]

So he "punishes" you by making you choose which one of you is to attend your son's party.  

You feel bad, but you attend and your son is delighted with what you've planned. (Seems like the one who is actually "punished" is your son, because his father is too busy having a "hissy fit" to be there to support him on his birthday.)

You later put aside your disappointment and take your daughter to the competition. The idea of feeling like a single parent is really upsetting as you want your husband to be loving and supportive to your children.

What you're missing, in my opinion, is that he can choose to behave however he wants, and he does, without regard for anyone else's feelings.

Your choice is whether or not this upsets you. He's done this over and over and over. And every time you get upset.

If I were in your shoes, I would vow not to be emotionally affected by this behavior. If you don't get upset when he does this sort of thing, then he's not getting a reaction from you and he won't be as likely to repeat that behavior in the future.

Thank you Cat,
I pulled every muscle I have in my body to pipe out “good morning” as he entered the room while I was getting ready. He isn’t making eye contact or taking to me, but still talking to my parents. He asked some things about the children, directed st no one in particular, and everyone. I replied.  I’m annoyed but doing my best to compose myself not to give him the reaction.

[Notwendy]

I think this behavior is less about you than him acting like a toddler. If a two year old was angry and said mean things to you - you’d not take it personally and know he was being a toddler. He says what he says to get your attention. It’s like a bully on the playground pulling your pony tail.

One positive about him not coming to the birthday is it’s probabkt more peaceful without him being there in his bad mood. I know you feel for your son when he didn’t show but it isn’t your job to smooth this over. If your son is upset that his dad isn’t there - then this reflects on dad. It’s his responsibility to form the relationship with his son.

I think it would help to reframe this and not make it into something hurtful and about you. You can still have a lovely relationship with your son - without him. It isn’t easy being a single parent and that bothers you - but even so- you can have a great time with your kids. If he isn’t there - he still can’t spoil your fun. You can pay attention to your son just as you are.

[snowglobe]

I think this behavior is less about you than him acting like a toddler. If a two year old was angry and said mean things to you - you’d not take it personally and know he was being a toddler. He says what he says to get your attention. It’s like a bully on the playground pulling your pony tail.

One positive about him not coming to the birthday is it’s probabkt more peaceful without him being there in his bad mood. I know you feel for your son when he didn’t show but it isn’t your job to smooth this over. If your son is upset that his dad isn’t there - then this reflects on dad. It’s his responsibility to form the relationship with his son.

I think it would help to reframe this and not make it into something hurtful and about you. You can still have a lovely relationship with your son - without him. It isn’t easy being a single parent and that bothers you - but even so- you can have a great time with your kids. If he isn’t there - he still can’t spoil your fun. You can pay attention to your son just as you are.

NotWendy,
Do you think this behaviour says anything about his upbringing, or birthday celebrations? He is full of contradictions, on one hand he says he had a normal uneventful childhood. On other hand he admits to never having a party, being forced to act as if “even his birthday is yet another day, never getting any presents”?. I don’t know what to accept as a fact. I’m leaning more towards the second, as he is trying to “prove” that anyone’s birthday is just another day.
As I surrounded myself with cleaning and organizing at the different end of the house, he called after me:” insert my name, are you planning to feed the kids?.”
I knew that the cue was that he is hungry. I went and prepared a meal and called for children to come and eat, and then personally came to him and asked him to join us. - zero reaction, complete ignore, he didn’t even acknowledge my presence or the Question. I went on to feed the kids, he came and joined us. I made a small talk about the birthday party with a few corky details. After the meal he was still hungry and asked for more food, which I obliged. He is back to ignoring me, and I went back to my cleaning. I don’t want to live a life where joyful moments will be ruined and compromised, this will be the issue I will adress at the clinic this week. I’m starting to see a new therapist specializing in dbt. Hopefully their expertise And my dedication will help me turn a corner. I’ve been making circles around myself and have not progressed even slightly at improving our relationships.
Does he feel any remorse for doing what he did? My friend whose son was at the party was picking him up later in the evening while I was gone with d15. She is fully aware of the situation and commented on how normal, sociable and hospitable he seemed when she came. She asked me if we are speaking of the same person. I guess it’s hard to believe about someone who is so soft spoken, galant and shy, that the same person would terrorize his wife and kids

[Notwendy]

I think a person with BPD feels wounded at some level -maybe from childhood or the disorder. When they are in victim mode and feel someone is their persecutor they feel justified in punishing back - they probably don’t feel remorse because they feel they are being hurt.

We can’t fix this perception. I think the people closest to them are most often the ones put in persecutor position due to the nature of the disorder. Your H is capable of behaving like a gentleman to aquaintances and act differently to you. It may feel like you are the reason but it is the disorder and your relationship to him- anyone else in your position would be treated the same way.

I think it would help to read Patricia Evans book Controlling People - it explains these dynamics well.

[snowglobe]

I think a person with BPD feels wounded at some level -maybe from childhood or the disorder. When they are in victim mode and feel someone is their persecutor they feel justified in punishing back - they probably don’t feel remorse because they feel they are being hurt.

We can’t fix this perception. I think the people closest to them are most often the ones put in persecutor position due to the nature of the disorder. Your H is capable of behaving like a gentleman to aquaintances and act differently to you. It may feel like you are the reason but it is the disorder and your relationship to him- anyone else in your position would be treated the same way.

I think it would help to read Patricia Evans book Controlling People - it explains these dynamics well.

Not Wendy,
As I downloaded the preview of the book, from the first chapter my mouth went agape. The name calling, the put downs, the “you are nothing, I can have a young piece of flesh at any given second”, the intimidation and silent treatments, he is playing me like a puppet. Even now I’m still processing it... .he would tell me “you are fat, I’m mercy f-ing you, you are fat cow that no one would sleep with”, I lost all the weight and then some. He would tell me, you are skinny fat, and I would go and kill myself in the gym just so he might like me. He would then tell me that my body is fine, but my lady parts are disgusting. I went and fixed it because he wanted to. They are still not perfect for him, as my body carried two children. He’d call me stupid and I ran to get educated. He’d call me selfish and I dropped everything to follow him around, so he could see how selfless and dedicated I’m. I have been playing catch up, when really, he can’t be please  as it’s not about me. I adapted to his way of life, becomes a controlling freak myself, so he doesn’t overspend, use drugs or sleep around.
All I can say, thank you Wendy, I will buy the actual book, as I don’t want him to see a receipt on a joint account. This book just shed light on something I was oblivious to.

[Notwendy]

I’ve read several of her books and they are eye openers. I kept them in my car to read ( didn’t want them in the house ) and when I finished them I donated them to the library but I read them word for word several times.

I hope it helps to shift your perspective that this isn’t about you or any parts of you and “fixing” them won’t change this dynamic. I had been trying to do this too- not about body changes but - I didn’t cook enough, or didn’t cook in the right way, or somehow offended him, or disappointed him, or didn’t do the right thing in bed or whatever and I would try to change what I thought was the reason but it didn’t work because the reason was projected issues. I couldn’t fix these things by changing what I did to try to please  because the issues were not anything to do with me.

The mental shift from looking at someone else for my own self value to looking inward spiritually helped. I had to strive to live by my own ethics and values. Caring for my family because it is my value. Exercising and eating right to take care of my body. If someone didn’t like me or what I did - my job wasn’t to change the other person. I can only be my best self and I am human and will probably make errors too but all I can do is try my best.

Your body is already perfect. It was made by the Master Creator . Those parts gave birth to two human beings. It’s a miracle. Exercise and eat right to take care of this gift. When you H finds fault with how you are made , it’s his projected unhappiness. You don’t have to share this. You can be happy with who you are.

Thinking about the tragedy in Pittsburg brings this to light. A person so consumed with projected self hatred shoots innocent people- many of them elderly. What kind of sick coward murders a 97 year old woman who would not be able to run or defend herself? This doesn’t mean all people with the kind of things your husband said about Jews are going to be murderers but I think you can easily see that this elderly woman had nothing to do with what this man said or did. His actions and words reflect his own inner turmoil.

What your H says about you also reflects his own inner turmoil. You’ve been trying to change this for him but you can’t. Live by your own ethics. Cook meals because you want your kids to eat right . Treat your family members kindly because your values align with this- but let go of feeling it is your job to fix your husbands inner issues. It isn’t.

[snowglobe]

I’ve read several of her books and they are eye openers. I kept them in my car to read ( didn’t want them in the house ) and when I finished them I donated them to the library but I read them word for word several times.

I hope it helps to shift your perspective that this isn’t about you or any parts of you and “fixing” them won’t change this dynamic. I had been trying to do this too- not about body changes but - I didn’t cook enough, or didn’t cook in the right way, or somehow offended him, or disappointed him, or didn’t do the right thing in bed or whatever and I would try to change what I thought was the reason but it didn’t work because the reason was projected issues. I couldn’t fix these things by changing what I did to try to please  because the issues were not anything to do with me.

The mental shift from looking at someone else for my own self value to looking inward spiritually helped. I had to strive to live by my own ethics and values. Caring for my family because it is my value. Exercising and eating right to take care of my body. If someone didn’t like me or what I did - my job wasn’t to change the other person. I can only be my best self and I am human and will probably make errors too but all I can do is try my best.

Your body is already perfect. It was made by the Master Creator . Those parts gave birth to two human beings. It’s a miracle. Exercise and eat right to take care of this gift. When you H finds fault with how you are made , it’s his projected unhappiness. You don’t have to share this. You can be happy with who you are.

Thinking about the tragedy in Pittsburg brings this to light. A person so consumed with projected self hatred shoots innocent people- many of them elderly. What kind of sick coward murders a 97 year old woman who would not be able to run or defend herself? This doesn’t mean all people with the kind of things your husband said about Jews are going to be murderers but I think you can easily see that this elderly woman had nothing to do with what this man said or did. His actions and words reflect his own inner turmoil.

What your H says about you also reflects his own inner turmoil. You’ve been trying to change this for him but you can’t. Live by your own ethics. Cook meals because you want your kids to eat right . Treat your family members kindly because your values align with this- but let go of feeling it is your job to fix your husbands inner issues. It isn’t.

Wendy,
I am not sure how to process my own feelings of hurt, resentment, confusion, longing to be close, angry. I have physical urges to yell out loud :”get away from me, go, sleep around, coke out, spend everything you have worked so hard for so you can die a lonely and miserable man, I have no love, pity or compassion left for you, you have exhausted it all, all I have left is rage, hate and anger”. It makes me feel terrible. It’s not like me, I’m a peaceful person who can argue just about any bodies defence, why am I feeling this way towards the father of my children?. I don’t want to tell that, the feelings get some latent transference and I never want to create any kind of drama for the children. I’m fighting these urges to stike our, as I know this is what he wants to elicit in me. So he can give himself a further permission to abuse me. I don’t want him to win, I need the goodness in me to prevail, for me to take care of me and my children. I don’t know how to detach with love. I’m just as controlling and dependent as he is.

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
You have swallowed years of abuse and have tried to appease your husband, which ultimately hasn't kept him from abusing you even more. Being a bully has worked for him: he gets foot rubs, massage, food cooked for him, sex, etc.

As you've continued to tolerate his outrageous behavior, it's no wonder that you're upset. Anyone would be if they endured what you've experienced.

This would be a good topic to explore in therapy. That you're feeling this way is an indication that you are needing to change your approach with him; the way you've been coping is not sustainable.

Cat

[Notwendy]

I agree with Cat to explore these feelings in therapy. For many of us, we've had our feelings invalidated and learned to not feel them. Because of denial and projection, you  know that expressing them to a pwBPD is not likely to lead to resolution.

Don't deny your feelings or judge them negatively. Your feelings exist to inform you. When people feel angry, it is often because their personal boundaries have been violated in some way. If someone does something harmful to us, then we feel hurt and angry. If we do too much for someone, we feel resentful. You can feel your feelings- they are informative.

I think what defines us as ethical humans is how we take action on those feelings. They don't mean we get to act hurtful to someone in return ( unless it is in self defense or defense of a loved one, or country if one is in the armed forces ). If we act in ways we don't respect - such as raging, name calling, retaliation- well that doesn't respect our boundaries. If we do nothing, and are doormats or appeasers to the behavior- that is harmful as well- to us and to the other person as enablers.

We can and should, take appropriate action. Exploring this with a therapist can help you decide on what that action can be. Don't deny it- use it to take steps towards positive change for you.

It wouldn't be good to yell at him to go get stoned on coke, but you also don't have to own the responsibility for his drug us. You can leave that to him. He is responsible for his own actions. You can have boundaries about his drug use around the children, or in the house. If he goes in the basement to do it, don't follow him. You also don't have to clean up his mess, or him, or cover for him.

When you are angry, you may not be able to detach with love.  You may not be feeling that. Stay centered on your own ethics. You know it isn't right to do hurtful things and it also isn't right to allow people to hurt you. Follow your values, and stay focused on self care.

[Cat Familiar]

Like what Notwendy writes, I don’t necessarily think of anger as a negative thing. Yes, we experience some unhealthy anger from our BPD loved ones, but there is also the idea of anger as a healthy emotion, which motivates us to change.

For those who are Christians, the anger Jesus felt about the money changers in the temple is an example of the latter.

I actually embrace my anger now and ask it what is the motivating principle. Some times it’s good to speak our truth; sometimes it’s good to take action.

I think the important thing is to understand and acknowledge our anger and realize it’s telling us something important, something we need to pay attention to, perhaps something we need to make some big changes around.

[Notwendy]

I have found the Jesus and the money changers story to be a source of misinterpretations of Jews in that era which is also used to fuel a derogatory stereotype. In the days of the ancient temple, Jews commuted to the temple for certain festivals and holidays. They traveled long distances - probably on foot or with the aid of an animal.  This could take several days and they would not be able to carry all they needed with them for a long stay. This created the need to exchange currency in the same way as if we travel to another country. The ancient temple was designed as a meeting place on the outside, with an inner sanctuary on the inside. This inside part was a holy place. Only the high priest could enter there. The money changers were not inside the place designated for worship. They were on the outer part which was the gathering place.

Once the temple was destroyed and Jews were dispersed to many places- the custom of travelling to a central location ceased and there was no need for priests. Jewish law prohibits handling of money on the sabbath and holy days. 

I don't know why Jesus was angry at the presence of the money changers- it was a necessity in those days to accommodate travelers to the temple. Naturally, no group of people is without those who might handle money unethically, so perhaps that happened and that's a reason to be angry.

What I do like about the story is that our culture tends to focus on the "turn the other cheek" and humility qualities of Jesus, and treat anger negatively. Saying we should not be angry is like denying an aspect of what makes us human. It is one of our emotions, no different from other ones. Our moral challenge is how we behave when we are angry- and this doesn't mean not taking action, but taking appropriate action.

I don't mean to hijack the thread with Bible history, but in light of the recent attack on Jews in a Pittsburgh temple, I see the potential in the money changer story to frame Jews in a negative light. Yet, I also see it as a valuable example that anger is not a lowly emotion- it's a normal one. We should just not act in a lowly way when we are angry.

[Cat Familiar]

Wow! Thanks for the clarification about that Bible story, Notwendy. The antisemitic aspect never crossed my mind and I just assumed that Jesus considered conducting business in a house of worship as inappropriate. Very interesting details you've included that give a much fuller understanding of the context in those times.

[formflier]

I've always taken that story to mean that anger and action with the anger is no necessarily sinful or a bad thing.

I can see how it could be twisted to be anti-semetic. 

FF

[snowglobe]

Hello all,
Today was one of the saddest yet clearest days of my life.
I met with a new clinician specializing in dbt, after several tests that she conducted I was diagnosed with 1. Generalized anxiety disorder and 2.ptsd ... .
I’m not sure if I should be happy and relieved or frightened by those diagnosis. She explained that based on the tests and the way I described my interaction with unpdh she thinks I’m highly reactive to triggers (some that we were able to identify 1. His family of origin is associated with my paternal grandparents that had a heavy hand at the befall of my parents marriage, adding unpdh’s disregulation, abuse and impulsive decisions regarding the finances that are the trigger that propel me into stratosphere with a panic attach. My panic attacks are deemed as mild for now. Him threatening to leave me, divorce also is a huge trigger for acting frantic and try to stop him from abandonment, going through severe poverty with my mom left a scar, I’m not able to let go of things and objects in fear that I will never be able to replenish my resources. Finally, my mother’s physical and emotional abuse at the hands of my father had set the stage to “normalize” this behaviour to stay for as long as I have.
We are doing major focus in two weeks on
1. Start to tap into ptsd (non dbt approach)
2. Emotional regulation (cease the placating uBPDh when he tries to threaten and leave)
3. Distress tolerance (when he abuses me)
4. Interpersonal effectiveness (I need to develop skills and reach fundamental milestones in order to take care of myself and my children)
Few side notes; I almost cried from the sight of the relief when she told me that I don’t have borderline personality disorder (I asked her to test me, at times, the way I acted, I was already unsure at my own sanity).
I just hope that I will be able to sustain this treatment financially long enough to get better.
UBPDh continues to disregulate and is now adding our kids to this mix: e.g. whispering and conspiring with s11 to do things his psychologist advised agains- which is playing video games. He gets fixated due to diagnosis and starts visual drumming. He is drawn to violent games which are more engaging and stimulating. He is also predisposed to violent ideations (draws people getting blown up, talks about killing, is fascinated with gory things. Given the fact we have ammo and weapons to sustain a small army in the house, it’s best to keep s11 away from gaming in general for all of the above reasons.) after dropping a salary worth of money on to s11’s lap to show him “how much daddy loves him, and how good daddy is”, (never mind he didn’t show up to his birthday because he was “punishing me for breaking the phone screen”) he is now talking to s11 about buying new playing devise and games to play together to bond. He hid the money, and things such as braces are now coming out from our fsmily’s Budget all the while he is plotting to do the very things that goes against best interests of our son. He is also talking about “when will we have s11 christianing”? Hmmm ... .never I guess. Can he even do this without my permission? Can he baptize him without the permission of the other parent? Are there any laws that can prevent this? I don’t want to go into a discussion about religion, it’s irrelevant, what matters is that I don’t introduce our children to my beliefs out of sheer respect for uBPDh’s feelings, and the fact that s11 is on the spectrum, again, his psychologist doesn’t advise any religion which may confuse him and introduce unnecessary fears (Demnation, demons, hell and etc).
He also played a hand with d15, allowing her to go trick or treating after her training late in the night. When I found out, I called her and told her I was getting her (she is 15, no one does trick or treating after 10 pm), she complained that dad let her stay as long as she likes. Once I had set the boundary (it’s a school night, the streets were empty and frankly, with cannabis now legalized it’s a real danger for teenagers) uBPDh called her (d15) yelling, “how dare did you mother disobey me? She is now punished”. I focused on driving, and when I got home he announced that “you are punished and now sleeping alone”.
To sum things up- I’m glad I went to the appointment, it’s a relief on its own to know I’m not crazy. There will be a lot of work ahead to deal with ptsd and my immediate dysregulation. I want to do this work. Meanwhile, he is as bad as it gets, trying to tip the scale at 120 kg (self distructive behaviour, gained 14 kg towards this goal). 

[Notwendy]

Personally, I feel that religion ( including no religion )  is a very personal choice and as a parent- your personal choice and so I would not discuss what religion a family chooses. However, religion can become a source of conflict in a relationship- like any other conflict.  I want to point out something in the statement you made:

I don’t introduce our children to my beliefs out of sheer respect for uBPDh’s feelings, and the fact that s11 is on the spectrum, again, his psychologist doesn’t advise any religion which may confuse him.

Yes, this is your choice, but it also comes with the expectation that your H will also not impose his religion on the kids. That if you respect his feelings, he will also respect yours. That if you take the advice of your therapist, he will too. As you can see, it doesn't work this way. Your H does whatever he wants to do. We really can not control someone else's choices, only our own. I don't know if any clergy would christen your child without you in agreement. I would hope not. I would think most clergy consider the family and expect the parents to participate in ceremonies. I suppose your H could lie, but if you did find out about it, you could also go speak to the clergy who did it and clarify the situation. Maybe this is another one of his threats to get at you.

I know this was a difficult day, but in a way, the work you are doing with your T could be a step on a path to something better for you. I hope you can continue to focus on your personal work. Your H may choose a self destructive path- but you can not control this. If he does harm to the children, then you would need to decide how to handle that.

[formflier]

I remember asking before or pointing out that I thought the psychologist's advice about no religion was likely misunderstood or somehow in-artfully given by him.

I don't think that is an issue to run out and clarify with his P... .but at some point I would make sure to find time for a further discussion about the "intent" of his advice.

Broadly speaking:  Children and adults experience religion much differently because of maturity.  In the same context, it makes sense that someone on the spectrum would experience it differently... perhaps dramatically so.

So... .I could see some thought and care being needed about how to "present" religion to someone on the spectrum, much in the same manner that adults and children are "presented" religious concepts in different ways.

I just can't imagine that a provider meant absence of any religion whatsoever.

Enough about that.

I'm glad you have found a provider... .the plan sounds reasonable. 

FF

[snowglobe]

I remember asking before or pointing out that I thought the psychologist's advice about no religion was likely misunderstood or somehow in-artfully given by him.

I don't think that is an issue to run out and clarify with his P... .but at some point I would make sure to find time for a further discussion about the "intent" of his advice.

Broadly speaking:  Children and adults experience religion much differently because of maturity.  In the same context, it makes sense that someone on the spectrum would experience it differently... perhaps dramatically so.

So... .I could see some thought and care being needed about how to "present" religion to someone on the spectrum, much in the same manner that adults and children are "presented" religious concepts in different ways.

I just can't imagine that a provider meant absence of any religion whatsoever.

Enough about that.

I'm glad you have found a provider... .the plan sounds reasonable. 

FF

@Ff,
I recently spoke to s11’s psychologist. He has clinical degree and as you can imagine is very pricey. It’s one of the reasons why I can’t consult with him on a regular basis, but when some serious things arise, especially with the kids I meet with him. This long lasting conflict with relaigion began seven years ago. Motivation was a big factor in my decision making. My husband is not a practicing Christian, as I must point out. If you remember from past winter, he only goes to make a point, once every 10 years, attending any church ceremonies gives him a strange “cleanse” from his sins without seeing the consequences of his actions. I, personally, would love for my son to have some faith and hope in life, in a form of religion, however in this case, this convenient form of faith will only traumatize a child, whose world is already literall, with only black and white. If he ever learnt about heaven and hell, demnarion, and other religious concepts it would further exacerbate his anxieties. For that very reason, the psychologist is recommending meditation, mindfulness and general concepts of spirituality, which are more suited and accessible for s11. Exerting his power over me (I will baptize s11 without your permission) is another form of emotional abuse served to evoke an anxiety within me to comply on all the other issues.

[formflier]

OK... .much as I suspected, limitations of how we communicate on this board limited the understanding of nuance.

What I just read suggests that the P was encouraging you to be "age specific" and "developmentally specific" about how religion is presented and the types... .vice the absence of religion from S11's life.

There is an additional element here... that you and your husband don't agree or share the same religion.

There is another element here of "religious hypocrisy"... .that your hubby seems to be wanting to train S11 with/for.

I would encourage you to discuss with your counselor what response (if any) you should have should your husband actually try to take your child in for a baptismal.

My understanding is he is threatening it... .like he threatens many other things.

You are taking big steps... .take care of yourself in the process.

   

FF

[snowglobe]

OK... .much as I suspected, limitations of how we communicate on this board limited the understanding of nuance.

What I just read suggests that the P was encouraging you to be "age specific" and "developmentally specific" about how religion is presented and the types... .vice the absence of religion from S11's life.

There is an additional element here... that you and your husband don't agree or share the same religion.

There is another element here of "religious hypocrisy"... .that your hubby seems to be wanting to train S11 with/for.

I would encourage you to discuss with your counselor what response (if any) you should have should your husband actually try to take your child in for a baptismal.

My understanding is he is threatening it... .like he threatens many other things.

You are taking big steps... .take care of yourself in the process.

   

FF

I said this many times before, if my husband walked the walk he is preaching, I would gladly join him on this quest. Any religion, if it’s not taken to fanatic level is a wonderful tool to self soothe, regulate and fear against committing transgressions against other people. UBPDh, unfortunately, is using his faith as. Beating stick, which only adds chaos to chaotic events. What will be, will be, I will not speak of that with him, he knows where I stand, in order for him to make such serious action, this decision has to be mutually discussed.
We are now to another extreme. He explicitly states that he hates the country where we live and wants to move back to his country of origin. The first step is for him to get its citizenship and passport. A complicating matters- he immigrated as a refuge to the country where we live now, before his country of origin gained its independence, it will be a process. In addition, “he wants his children to get their citizenships as well”. Well, if it’s not religion, it’s a citizenship. This constant tag of war is wearing me down so much that I can’t concentrate on my studies. Arguments such as: your country of origin is almost at Cold War with the rest of the world, it doesn’t recognize any universal laws, pacts or agreements, it doesn’t do extradition to other countries, it doesn’t have any laws of protecting women, children or people with disabilities, your children barely understand the language, there are a lot of language barriers, I have never lived in your country of origin, not do I want to, we have met here, how can you ask me to move just so it makes you feel better? He is splitting and doesn’t hear anything, I decided I will not help him or enable him my filling out the forms, specifically I will do everything in my power for my children to remain citizens of the only country they have known, in case uBPDh is thinking of kidnapping them (real fear, he dropped this few times “if you don’t want to go- don’t! I’ll just take the kids back home and find them a new mommy, who is a 18 yo model).
Yesterday this “I will find myself a young 18 yo girlfriend” came up several times during the session. I was explained that it’s a form of emotional abuse intended to devalue my self worth, wait for it! So I don’t leave him because he is terrified that I will leave him. I still can’t buy this explanation! Why would someone who loves me, would make me feel worthless so I don’t realize my worth and find someone better?. I still can’t buy into this, although the therapist seemed pretty certain. I am a fixer by nature, so for me to fix something, I have to understand this, I don’t, in this case. This BPD world doesn’t have any rules or patterns.
Finally, when I got tired after I brought d15 home, I announced I was going to bed, and hoped he will join me (after he said I am punishing you, you are sleeping alone). I was surprised to wake up next to him. He came, this intermittent reinforcement ?.

[Cat Familiar]

Something I've observed in reading your threads about your husband is that he makes a lot of threats, and carries out few of them. Just hearing these threats makes you fearful so he doesn't have to act them out.

I'm so glad that you've found a great therapist who seems to have a good sense of what you're experiencing. Being free of these triggers and your PTSD reactions will give you a much greater ability to deal with whatever comes your way.

Like many pwBPD, and people in general, talk is cheap and it's much easier to say things than actually to take the steps to do things like all the red tape involved in immigration. It's good that you do no participation in your husband's various schemes and if he chooses to try and make some of them happen, it will take time and effort and you'll have plenty of opportunity to prevent those outcomes.

[babyducks]

Snowglobe,

I am glad you found a provider you feel comfortable with aND who has provided a path forward.

First,  I would like to mention that PTSD from childhood trauma is common for many of us.  You can find help for that on the Parent or Sibling board.  Please go take a look.

Second,   yup "I will go find a 18 year old"  is indeed a form of abuse designed to keep you from leaving.

It works in a couple of ways.  It is a threat. ... .if you complain about the treatment you receive I will do the thing you fear.    Replace you with someone younger or better or more compliant.

It also devalues you so YOU believe you are helpless,  and at the mercy of your hubands choices.   (You are not)

Emotional abuse is a power and control tactic to put you in a weaker position.    The position of victim.

Your therapist is absolutely correct.

[babyducks]

Snowglobe,

Every time he says something like this,  and it doesn't matter which example you mention :

- I am going to find a 18 year old
- I am going to sell the house
- I am going to move to my country of origin
- I am going to go bankrupt and stop providing

Every time he says something like this he is using it as a tool.  His verbal and emotional abuse is a tool to get you to:

- pay more attention to him
- launch yourself into a frenzy protecting him and the family
- do everything you possibly can to fix it
- find ways to soothe and comfort him

What he says or threatens are tools that get him what he wants.    You glued to his side, making things better.    It makes him feel more secure.

'ducks

[formflier]

What he says or threatens are tools that get him what he wants.    You glued to his side, making things better.    It makes him feel more secure.

To be specific... .it is unlikely he wants what he is threatening.  Do you see that... .? 

He wants you.

Yet the "tools" he are using make it seem like he "detests" you... .or wants you gone... .or has no value for you.

When in reality... .you are likely the most important thing to him.

Then... .ask... .most important thing for what?

Again... .look at Ducks suggestion.  Making him feel more secure... .more "normal".  Please understand the "crazy" to  us is "normal" to him and vice versa.  (likely depending on his emotional state)

Do you see this?  Agree?  Disagree?

Thoughts?

FF

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe,

Every time he says something like this,  and it doesn't matter which example you mention :

- I am going to find a 18 year old
- I am going to sell the house
- I am going to move to my country of origin
- I am going to go bankrupt and stop providing

Every time he says something like this he is using it as a tool.  His verbal and emotional abuse is a tool to get you to:

- pay more attention to him
- launch yourself into a frenzy protecting him and the family
- do everything you possibly can to fix it
- find ways to soothe and comfort him

What he says or threatens are tools that get him what he wants.    You glued to his side, making things better.    It makes him feel more secure.

'ducks

Ducks, I have nothing to add, yes, it’s clear as day that he is beyond manipulative and gets me to react immediately due to my own traumas. I’m over compensating for what I was lacking as a child. What’s interesting, is when I think back and realize that my devotion to him isn’t about financial security, it’s more of imprinting of a vulnerable child to a father figure. After all, no one can really hate their dad. When we were living in a rents apartment with not a dime to our name and he was telling me that he will leave me, I held on tighter then ever. This is where the feet rubbing and placating came from. Now, to his old repertoire he added financial incentive, making it almost impossible to break away.

[snowglobe]

To be specific... .it is unlikely he wants what he is threatening.  Do you see that... .? 

He wants you.

Yet the "tools" he are using make it seem like he "detests" you... .or wants you gone... .or has no value for you.

When in reality... .you are likely the most important thing to him.

Then... .ask... .most important thing for what?

Again... .look at Ducks suggestion.  Making him feel more secure... .more "normal".  Please understand the "crazy" to  us is "normal" to him and vice versa.  (likely depending on his emotional state)

Do you see this?  Agree?  Disagree?

Thoughts?

FF

Ff, you are in line with the new clinician, i sadly don’t see the logic here. Why would anyone who wants to keep their family, would do and say such atrocities? He is getting rid of the car he had given to me on my birthday a year ago, today when I picked him up for work, he repeated the same thing he said a year ago, only this time it sounded different. Here is what I mean: he leased the car, as a belated present for me after ruining yet another birthday, it’s the highest end of the luxury vehicle, which costs us a monthly price tag of a small mortgage. When he gave it to me, he said “now you will need to give me a lot of oral... .to make up for the car”. I laughed it off, as it was very ego stroking gesture coming from him. Very quickly I realized that the car was his, and that I really have no claim on it, it was all fog and mirrors. Today, since he has a buyer coming in to see it; he said “you didn’t pleasure me enough to deserve the car. He (referring to himself) decided to give it, and now decided to take it away. Since you didn’t pleasure me the way you should have, consider you drive the car for free”. I remained quiet. WhAt do you reply to a person who seriously suggests this?.

Now to your question- why does he need me? To serve as his punching bag and a pacifier simultaneously. It’s nice to have an accountant, a maid, a Massauce, a warm body at the tips of the fingers. I sincerely believe that he doesn’t love me, moreover, he doesn’t even know me, I’m a mould, or projection of who he wants to see.
I completely agree with his normal vs my normal, I also see the impulsive behaviour coming from me, to stop him from leaving. If it’s correct, according to my new therapist, who am I trying to keep from leaving, it’s likely not uBPDh. I am starting to suspect it’s my dad... .
Now, more of questions for you- knowing what I know now, hiw do I move forward?.

[formflier]

Please stop looking for logic.  It's not there.

This is emotion on steroids... .trained by years of dysfunction.

FF