Another Toxic Relationship

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Not really sure where to post this as I have been negotiating my way through some choppy waters of late. The long-standing affair I was embroiled in has been over for two years but that is what originally brought me onto this site. Things are starting to work themselves out since I told my wife that our marriage is in trouble. Her response was to go away for a couple of weeks into the wilderness and said she will most likely move out when she returns.

I am taking time out to assess my own situation. I recently started a relationship with another woman who I adore, but has clear push/pull tendencies and we have been triggering each other all over the place. She has been pushing me to leave my marriage. I told her that my marriage was in trouble anyway but I don't want to leave my marriage because of another relationship but for the reasons that exist between my wife and I.  She doesn't like it but she has been trying to be understanding.

Yesterday, I told her that I didn't know exactly when my marriage was going to be over but I need to discuss things with my wife when she returns from her adventures in the wilderness.  The new woman started off trying to be understanding and then kept pushing me saying that her life is on hold until I am free. I told her that I understood this but I needed time to sort myself out and I didn't want to be constantly pressured. She then took issue with the notion that she has been pressuring me to end the marriage and suddenly erupted into a rage. It scared the living hell out of me as she physically attacked and caught me in the face with her hand. To be fair to her I think she was trying to grab my chest but her hand went into my face instead. Her rage was like nothing I've experienced and she screamed at me to get out of her house.

I knew this woman had traits. Every day since I met her she has been seeking reassurance about one thing or another. I have tried my best to calm her but obviously being married is going to be a trigger and I fully understand that. She has told me that her mother is a Narcissist and that she has had a relationship with a man she also considered to be a Narcissist. She told me at the beginning of our relationship that she thought I was also one. We have had many discussions about BPD and NPD. I told her I knew a bit about personality disorders and that I didn't consider either one of us have a disorder but that we both have traits, notably around abandonment. She is very intelligent and we have helped each other quite alot with our emotional dysregulation and unexpectedly have been able to be a force for good for each other.

However, after witnessing her emotional state yesterday, alarm bells have gone off in my head. I've seen her get upset in this way twice before but not to the extent that happened yesterday. Neither has she been physical with me before. The stress of the situation and our combined analysis of each other's behaviour (we are both also in AA) seems to have moved on from her trying to be understanding to becoming a weapon with which to attack me. She has now completely re-written the history of the last two months and said that her behaviour has been completely understandable and that the situation and my own emotional volatility has been triggering her. Up until a week ago, there had been alot of progress between us and she was starting to see how her abandonment fears have been triggering her emotional dysregulation.

She knows that my marriage is ending. She also knows that I care deeply for her. She also says that I am the love of her life. I can see a real chance of a good relationship with somebody I feel is on my emotional, intellectual and artistic wavelength. However, after yesterday, I have become frightened of what she might do next. To me these rages sound like she may have NPD herself and that her diagnosis of others may be projection. To be honest, trying to deal with somebody with NPD is the last thing I need in my life.

[RomanticFool]

Not really sure where to post this as I have been negotiating my way through some choppy waters of late. The long-standing affair I was embroiled in has been over for two years but that is what originally brought me onto this site. Things are starting to work themselves out since I told my wife that our marriage is in trouble. Her response was to go away for a couple of weeks into the wilderness and said she will most likely move out when she returns.

I am taking time out to assess my own situation. I recently started a relationship with another woman who I adore, but has clear push/pull tendencies and we have been triggering each other all over the place. She has been pushing me to leave my marriage. I told her that my marriage was in trouble anyway but I don't want to leave my marriage because of another relationship but for the reasons that exist between my wife and I.  She doesn't like it but she has been trying to be understanding.

Yesterday, I told her that I didn't know exactly when my marriage was going to be over but I need to discuss things with my wife when she returns from her adventures in the wilderness.  The new woman started off trying to be understanding and then kept pushing me saying that her life is on hold until I am free. I told her that I understood this but I needed time to sort myself out and I didn't want to be constantly pressured. She then took issue with the notion that she has been pressuring me to end the marriage and suddenly erupted into a rage. It scared the living hell out of me as she physically attacked and caught me in the face with her hand. To be fair to her I think she was trying to grab my chest but her hand went into my face instead. Her rage was like nothing I've experienced and she screamed at me to get out of her house.

I knew this woman had traits. Every day since I met her she has been seeking reassurance about one thing or another. I have tried my best to calm her but obviously being married is going to be a trigger and I fully understand that. She has told me that her mother is a Narcissist and that she has had a relationship with a man she also considered to be a Narcissist. She told me at the beginning of our relationship that she thought I was also one. We have had many discussions about BPD and NPD. I told her I knew a bit about personality disorders and that I didn't consider either one of us have a disorder but that we both have traits, notably around abandonment. She is very intelligent and we have helped each other quite alot with our emotional dysregulation and unexpectedly have been able to be a force for good for each other.

However, after witnessing her emotional state yesterday, alarm bells have gone off in my head. I've seen her get upset in this way twice before but not to the extent that happened yesterday. Neither has she been physical with me before. The stress of the situation and our combined analysis of each other's behaviour (we are both also in AA) seems to have moved on from her trying to be understanding to becoming a weapon with which to attack me. She has now completely re-written the history of the last two months and said that her behaviour has been completely understandable and that the situation and my own emotional volatility has been triggering her. Up until a week ago, there had been alot of progress between us and she was starting to see how her abandonment fears have been triggering her emotional dysregulation.

She knows that my marriage is ending. She also knows that I care deeply for her. She also says that I am the love of her life. I can see a real chance of a good relationship with somebody I feel is on my emotional, intellectual and artistic wavelength. However, after yesterday, I have become frightened of what she might do next. To me these rages sound like she may have NPD herself and that her diagnosis of others may be projection. To be honest, trying to deal with somebody with NPD is the last thing I need in my life.

[Cat Familiar]

What you've seen is a foreshadowing of what you'll be experiencing should you pursue this relationship further. 

Apparently something keeps you wanting to have her in your life. What is that?

[RomanticFool]

She is an amazing person in so many ways. Intelligent, insightful, compassionate, passionate, loving and with a joi de  vivre. However, the level of anger made me frightened and I told her my fears tonight. She looked shocked and said ‘Do you think I’m a Narcissist?’ I told her I didn’t think so as she has empathy. I told her that both her and I share certain fears and these get triggered. I told her that she frightened me though and we need to make sure that she never gets into that state again. She agreed and said she felt safe with me.

I asked her if she’d ever lost her temper like that with anybody before. She said she hadn’t to that degree. She said nobody has ever got under her skin like me before. She also told me that her mother used to rage at her and she thinks it might be learnt behaviour. She asked me if I thought she needed therapy. I said that perhaps we both do.

When she is calm she is wonderful but seeing that level of rage has unnerved me. There have been signs of extreme co-dependency all along, such as asking my opinions on cultural issues and then reappropriating them as her own opinions too. She says that I am her mentor and when I have my wise mind I am such an amazing person. She has also been loving and very tactile with me far more than other women would ever be. She dysregulates when I am not with her and I have to talk her around. She speaks her internal monologue out loud and everything is gauging whether I am about to abandon her. She constantly looks to me for reassurance. She got upset when I joked about whether or not she had read all the books on her bookshelf and suddenly lost her sense of humour. Most of the time she is loving and funny and laughs in a kind of girly way. But I have to be honest and say that she is Jekyll and Hyde at times. She goes into a cold and distant clinical version of herself where she paints me black. When she does it and I point it out to her, she usually comes out of it quickly.

She is aware of her issues. She is willing to do something about them. If I insisted on it I think she would come with me to therapy. I don’t think she is a classic Narcissist as her ego is often subjugated and she often showers me with compliments. However, when she turns the compliments then become criticisms.

I wonder if there is hope of her improving? I think she has the potential to change as she is self aware and willing to work on her issues. The problem is I’ve seen her rage theee times in the last few months. She is lucky I went back to her on Sunday, which I did only because I didn’t want her to suffer. She maintains that she loves me and that I am the only man she could ever be with. Her love seems genuine and she seems to have depth but am I really just her co-dependent supply? She keeps asking me if I ever thought about playing guitar.(I already play piano) and said that she wants to buy me a guitar. Is this projection of her own desires into me? Does this woman really love me or am I really just an object for her supply?

[Cat Familiar]

What do you think it is about you that drives you to find these unstable women attractive?

[RomanticFool]

I guess I am a rescuer to women in distress

[formflier]

Romantic Fool

I've followed your story for a while and I want to commend you for the level of detail and analysis that you are able to bring to your own actions and those of others.  Very vivid. 

This helpful for those wanting learn and those interested in helping you along your journey.  Good job with this!   

Do you see this quality in your posts and thinking?

Since you are likely at a turning point in your life and relationships(s), I'm hoping that you can come alongside me and looking at part of your posts and likely your thinking that (to me) seems lacking.

True to FF style... .I'm asking about the big picture (not a particular conversation... or week or months worth of conversations).

You've been married for a while and I don't understand (even though I've asked before) the apparent decision to pursue yet another relationship outside your marriage, instead of pursuing your marriage for a while.

It would seem to me that sorting out your marriage without other distractions, certainly other relationships (and especially relationships were a party is apparently urging you to end the marriage).

From memory... the only reason I can remember that you guys weren't intimate (having sex) was lack of agreement about a mattress (or bed).  Since that couldn't be sorted out... .if I remember right, separate beds and I believe separate rooms.

I have memories of asking you about that... .why not shop for a mattress? and I have no memory of any answer.

So... .please don't take this as me criticizing.  Please do take this as me looking at a situation (and knowing that I'm an ESTJ... .so I'll try to "think" my way through things) and saying "this doesn't make any sense."  "What good possibly comes from avoiding the marriage?"

I understand that you don't control your wife or other women... .yet wouldn't it be helpful to work  through YOUR reasons for YOUR part of the marriage.

If you are a rescuer of women... .why not rescue your wife? (or at least attempt to for a long period of time)

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

Hi FormFlier,

Thanks for your reply.

The central issue with my marriage is that my wife and I have not been intimate for 9 years. It isn’t just about a bed (you remembered correctly about that detail) but the fact that we have not been intimate for three quarters of our relationship. We have been together for 12 years (married for 7) and have only been intimate for three of those years - and that wasn’t very frequent. I have come to the conclusion that my marriage is not salavageable and my wife agrees.

My behaviour has been terrible during my marriage and I will carry the guilt and shame with me. I got involved in another affair because I was drawn to the new woman and I knew my marriage is over. I have realised that the reason I kept seeing other women is because I felt depressed in a sexless relationship and needed the outlet. I don’t think there has ever been a strong sexual attraction between my wife and I though there has been a strong bond of love. In all honesty I think trying to resolve my marriage would simply be wasting each other’s time. I have finally found the wherewithal to let her go.

The new woman is somebody I am strongly drawn to but I have no intention of allowing her to dictate the way my marriage break up is going to proceed. My decision is not based on any prompting by her, indeed when she first started asking when I am going to be free I told her that I didn’t know and that if she needed to get out of the situation I would understand. This is not a decision she is pushing me into but one I know is right for my wife and I in the long term. I have to get out of the cycle of lying and cheating and get back to being an honest and loyal partner. The relationship with my wife has gone too far away from ever being resolved and we don’t have a sexual attraction for each other. It’s time to face the fact now.

[formflier]

The relationship with my wife has gone too far away from ever being resolved and we don’t have a sexual attraction for each other. It’s time to face the fact now.

OK... I hear you.

I also want to challenge you to "think" (again... ESTJ in me here).  Especially about the words you are using.

If you are going to use "facts" for your relationship, I would encourage you to use actual experience, vice "fear" of how something will turn out.

What do we teach here about FOG?

Said another way.  If you committed yourself to your wife for a period of a year (or some other long period of time) and made an effort to work through things, then I would think you can say you "know" where you stand from "experience",  vice deciding not to try because you "fear" (think) it's too far gone.

Here is the thing.  It may be too far gone.  It may not.  How can you find out for sure?

I would also encourage you to "think" about the broad view of your reason.  There seems to be a circular quality to it... .

Lack of intimacy is the central thing

The central issue with my marriage is that my wife and I have not been intimate for 9 years. It isn’t just about a bed (you remembered correctly about that detail) but the fact that we have not been intimate for three quarters of our relationship.  

The "Fact" that is the reasoning for ending a relationship is solvable... likely in under 5 minutes... .perhaps less time than that.

So... .do you see the circular part of this.  We aren't intimate because... .we haven't been intimate for so long... .so there is nothing we can do about it because we aren't intimate.

How about pursuing your wife to have sex?  Poof... .the "facts" just changed.

I'm not suggesting sex will solve everything.  Perhaps not anything.  There is only one way to know.  

So... .it appears to me that since the "fact" that is being used to dissolve the marriage seems to be fixable... .I'm wondering what else is part of your reasoning.

Listen:  If my memory serves me correctly (and I think it does... since I remembered the bed right)... .you often speak (write) fondly of your wife.  There often seems to be a wistful component to your view of her.

We can't change the past and I understand your feelings of having behaved badly.  That is... what it is.  

Yet tomorrow you are in complete control of your contribution to your marriage.  I can't help but wonder if you put the brain power, heart power and every other form of emotional energy that has been directed at other women, towards your wife... .well... .I can't help but wonder what your life would look like after several months.

Here is the thing.  I don't have to wonder at all how your life will look in 3 months if you continue after this other woman (or some other replacement woman).   There is history there... .and history tends to repeat itself.

It would seem you agree that there really isn't history of pursuing your wife.  Why not give it a try... .and write some new history?

FF

[Skip]

Things are starting to work themselves out since I told my wife that our marriage is in trouble. Her response was to go away for a couple of weeks into the wilderness and said she will most likely move out when she returns.

Have you contacted a lawyer about dividing community assets? Case history would say that it is better to approach her early and with a reasonable settlement. Once she gets a lawyer involved and if they do any investigating, this could get bad. This is going to be hard on her.

I have to get out of the cycle of lying and cheating and get back to being an honest and loyal partner. The relationship with my wife has gone too far away from ever being resolved and we don’t have a sexual attraction for each other. It’s time to face the fact now.

You are only weeks into this relationship and you see her as toxic and needing to change to be a good partner. You also, if I remember correctly, identified your divorce as further along than it is (which has not even been mentioned). She is struggling with this... .and it will always fuel a trust issue in the relationship. The foundation of this new relationship is a broken.

As a general rule, if this new "love" is not acceptable "as who she is", and you have not played things well on your end, it might not be a good thing to pursue.

When you get into the dating world, with your baggage cleared, you can pursue healthier people.  If you try to do this from inside a marriage, trust is always going to be a factor.

[Mutt]

Hi Romantic Fool,

When you get into the dating world, with your baggage cleared, you can pursue healthier people.  If you try to do this from inside a marriage, trust is always going to be a factor.

I can relate with having a sexless marriage I was in a r/s with an undiagnosed partner with BPD we were married for seven years the last 4 there barely was any sex and the last two years we didn't have sex. I can't imagine what 9 years would be like I thought 2 was tough. I don't have any words of wisdom for you I do think that intimacy is important in a r/s it helps with bonding the r/s, it boosts your mood it's good for your self esteem etc.

I just wanted to touch on what Skip about attracted like people and I have to agree with him I would add the more work that you do on yourself you'll attract more healthier people. Your situation is different than mine and this help you or not you can use it the women that I attracted after I took a long pause after the break up of my marriage were a lot different than my ex and women before that.

It was a lot nicer with a healthier person because there aren't these huge highs and lows there's a consistency that I missed and that I liked it's also nice to not feel like you're going to be under attack when you're emotionally intimate I had some old habits that carried over that was interesting because I was defensive when there really wasn't a reason to be with someone that is not emotionally abusing you. Anyways I'm sorry that you're going through a difficult time in your marriage.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks for your input all. I had to end the relationship on Monday after being physically attacked for the second time with her screaming blue murder at me saying how much I reminded her of her mother. I rue the day I ever mentioned NPD traits to her because she has thrown every single one of them back in my face and tried to gaslight me into accepting that I am a full blown NPD while she is my victim, not seeing the irony that she is the screaming violent one. Every day some fresh hell has been laid at my door while she overlooks her own behaviour where she is bullying and browbeating me on every topic and in every discussion. She is in utter denial about her own behaviour and says that I wound her up into such a state that she ‘flailed’ herself against me and denies punching me in the jaw, since I don’t have a bruise. In the next breath she berates me for not being in the same emotional state that she is which she sees as proof of my Narcissism. This is truly traumatic. I don’t understand how I got to this place.

My wife has delayed her return to the country for another few days and I am actually looking forward to her return to get some sanity back into my life. This has sobered me up in terms of my limerence and romanticism. Perhaps I should no longer focus on having an intimate relationship and just be grateful that she at least is sane. I feel like I’m in a strange Alice In Wonderland type dream and I’ll wake up soon and return to the sanity of mild boredom!

[formflier]

I don’t understand how I got to this place.

Wouldn't this be a good thing to focus on?  Since you have a few days before your wife gets home... .why not reflect a bit.  Look at some of the questions that have consistently been asked of you... .and answer them.

I'm glad you are looking forward to your wife's return. 

FF