Mediation..did not go well

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all, my udBPD husband and I had mediation yesterday for parenting time and division of assets.  I am so mad, angry, upset... .I don't know what to do.  It did not go well at all, and I am so angry, but also so worried now.

Brief background, we've been married for 8 years and have one child, D4.  5 years ago or so my grandparents passed away and left me a sizeable inheritance.  I put it into an account in my name only that he could not access as he is very bad with money, and I'd been considering divorce since the day we got married.  At that point, we had a bought a house together, but it was in my name only and purchased before we got married, and upon getting the inheritance I paid it off.  Since then we have taken a couple vacations, I paid for all of the major repairs and updates to the house, I've bought him vehicles, paid for upgrades to those, etc etc.  Long story short, I currently have a very small amount left.  I stupidly used a lot for us together, but almost half of it was pissed away paying off the credit card that he kept running up.

So my lawyer told me right off the bat I had nothing to worry about with the house... .in my name, purchased before we were married and I paid for 80% of it vs his 20%.  She also told me the camper I purchased with inheritance would be mine, or we could use it as a bargaining chip if I did have to pay him some for the house.

I went into mediation yesterday thinking I may have to concede more than I would like, but felt pretty good.  Nope!  I have to pay him half of the house's equity which is 30K, we're splitting the camper which is fine and the debt (which I said I would take half, despite knowing most of the debt it his but that was before I knew what was to come), but he's getting half of my IRA that I earned post wedding date.  So he's getting 23k of my IRA but he barely had squat in his, so I didn't really benefit, and he gets to keep the roth IRA I opened and funded for him with my inheritance because my roth is almost the same amount so they just said to each keep our own.

He also got his truck, which I was also fine with before, but now that I have to pay him all this money, I am pissed that he got the truck, because that could at least be sold and worth something, whereas my vehicle is a lease.  My lawyer told me nothing about him being able to go for my IRA, and I was blown away about how much I owe him for the house and the fact that he could have taken even more (half of the full value, not just the equity).

I asked if I could speak to him because I was quite certain I could get him to agree to not take my IRA, but his lawyer wouldn't let him (or more like he just went along with what his lawyer said).  He was all upset before about ME going after HIS retirement and getting spousal support, but I get no SS and he turned around and took MY retirement.

His lawyer did not have his overview prepared beforehand so we never got a statement of what they were asking, and my other lawyer (the one with all my paperwork and statements) was about an hour late.  Mediation in and of itself was a horrible experience.  I don't understand why you have to make these huge life-altering decisions in a couple of hours, you're given no time to think about things or clear your head, I was so upset I was crying in the mediation room so of course I did not have a clear head to ask why they never told me about the IRA and how much he could get for the house, or why they didn't negotiate for half of the truck or make him take on more debt.

I just kept being told, if you don't agree today, your only option is court which is very expensive.  I felt like I had to make a decision and agree, or it would be even worse.  This system sucks!  In what world should you be told you have to pay someone 50K and not even get time to think or consult your attorney's after being able to clear your head and digest the information?  Then the mediator told me a few times what a nice guy my husband's lawyer is.  Oh yeah, real nice.   

I was so pissed afterward, I text my husband and told him not to ever talk to me again unless it's related to our daughter.  He said he felt bad and wasn't happy with how things went, and that he doesn't want my retirement.  But he, of course, did nothing to stop it and they say it is all binding and final.  I told him if he really is sorry and doesn't want it, then to give it back to me after I give it to him.  He says he will look into it, but the dummy will probably ask his lawyer if he can do it.  After all, this is the same guy that didn't think we were allowed to change our daughter into an outfit we brought to the hospital after she was born.

I'm just so upset and devastated.  He has been an absolute nightmare the entire 11 years we've been together, it took two years to finally leave him, he's been emotionally, verbally, and physically abusive (and financially, apparently that is a designation now too, because he put us in such debt all the time) and now he's gotten to walk away the clear winner yesterday.  I don't even know how I am going to pay him this money.  With my income, I don't even know if I will be approved for a loan.

I want to say something to my lawyers.  Even if they're hands really were tied by the law, that doesn't excuse the fact that they basically lied about me getting the house easily, and never told me about him being able to get half of my IRA.  If I had known that, I am certain I could have talked to him the day before and get him to agree not to take it.  He can be a real ass, but he does also have a nice side and I don't think he would intentionally go in and take it.  He's just very clueless and just went along with everything the lawyer said... .he may not have even been aware at the moment what he was agreeing too.  But my lawyers seem like nice people (people I could be friends with if I knew them another way) and I am not great at confronting people unless it is in the moment and I cannot keep my mouth shut.  I feel bad (which is dumb I know) saying they didn't do a good job, but right now I honestly felt so alone and like I had no support in there.  I'm also anxious about making things awkward for the remaining things I need them for, but at the same time I do know that I hired them and paid them to do a job, and I don't feel like they did it.

I'm just so crushed.  I don't know how much more I can take.  I'm so angry that he's gotten away with how he's treated me, and now got rewarded for it with my money. 

Thanks for reading.

[WantToBeFree]

Hi all, my udBPD husband and I had mediation yesterday for parenting time and division of assets.  I am so mad, angry, upset... .I don't know what to do.  It did not go well at all, and I am so angry, but also so worried now.

Brief background, we've been married for 8 years and have one child, D4.  5 years ago or so my grandparents passed away and left me a sizeable inheritance.  I put it into an account in my name only that he could not access as he is very bad with money, and I'd been considering divorce since the day we got married.  At that point, we had a bought a house together, but it was in my name only and purchased before we got married, and upon getting the inheritance I paid it off.  Since then we have taken a couple vacations, I paid for all of the major repairs and updates to the house, I've bought him vehicles, paid for upgrades to those, etc etc.  Long story short, I currently have a very small amount left.  I stupidly used a lot for us together, but almost half of it was pissed away paying off the credit card that he kept running up.

So my lawyer told me right off the bat I had nothing to worry about with the house... .in my name, purchased before we were married and I paid for 80% of it vs his 20%.  She also told me the camper I purchased with inheritance would be mine, or we could use it as a bargaining chip if I did have to pay him some for the house.

I went into mediation yesterday thinking I may have to concede more than I would like, but felt pretty good.  Nope!  I have to pay him half of the house's equity which is 30K, we're splitting the camper which is fine and the debt (which I said I would take half, despite knowing most of the debt it his but that was before I knew what was to come), but he's getting half of my IRA that I earned post wedding date.  So he's getting 23k of my IRA but he barely had squat in his, so I didn't really benefit, and he gets to keep the roth IRA I opened and funded for him with my inheritance because my roth is almost the same amount so they just said to each keep our own.

He also got his truck, which I was also fine with before, but now that I have to pay him all this money, I am pissed that he got the truck, because that could at least be sold and worth something, whereas my vehicle is a lease.  My lawyer told me nothing about him being able to go for my IRA, and I was blown away about how much I owe him for the house and the fact that he could have taken even more (half of the full value, not just the equity).

I asked if I could speak to him because I was quite certain I could get him to agree to not take my IRA, but his lawyer wouldn't let him (or more like he just went along with what his lawyer said).  He was all upset before about ME going after HIS retirement and getting spousal support, but I get no SS and he turned around and took MY retirement.

His lawyer did not have his overview prepared beforehand so we never got a statement of what they were asking, and my other lawyer (the one with all my paperwork and statements) was about an hour late.  Mediation in and of itself was a horrible experience.  I don't understand why you have to make these huge life-altering decisions in a couple of hours, you're given no time to think about things or clear your head, I was so upset I was crying in the mediation room so of course I did not have a clear head to ask why they never told me about the IRA and how much he could get for the house, or why they didn't negotiate for half of the truck or make him take on more debt.

I just kept being told, if you don't agree today, your only option is court which is very expensive.  I felt like I had to make a decision and agree, or it would be even worse.  This system sucks!  In what world should you be told you have to pay someone 50K and not even get time to think or consult your attorney's after being able to clear your head and digest the information?  Then the mediator told me a few times what a nice guy my husband's lawyer is.  Oh yeah, real nice.   

I was so pissed afterward, I text my husband and told him not to ever talk to me again unless it's related to our daughter.  He said he felt bad and wasn't happy with how things went, and that he doesn't want my retirement.  But he, of course, did nothing to stop it and they say it is all binding and final.  I told him if he really is sorry and doesn't want it, then to give it back to me after I give it to him.  He says he will look into it, but the dummy will probably ask his lawyer if he can do it.  After all, this is the same guy that didn't think we were allowed to change our daughter into an outfit we brought to the hospital after she was born.

I'm just so upset and devastated.  He has been an absolute nightmare the entire 11 years we've been together, it took two years to finally leave him, he's been emotionally, verbally, and physically abusive (and financially, apparently that is a designation now too, because he put us in such debt all the time) and now he's gotten to walk away the clear winner yesterday.  I don't even know how I am going to pay him this money.  With my income, I don't even know if I will be approved for a loan.

I want to say something to my lawyers.  Even if they're hands really were tied by the law, that doesn't excuse the fact that they basically lied about me getting the house easily, and never told me about him being able to get half of my IRA.  If I had known that, I am certain I could have talked to him the day before and get him to agree not to take it.  He can be a real ass, but he does also have a nice side and I don't think he would intentionally go in and take it.  He's just very clueless and just went along with everything the lawyer said... .he may not have even been aware at the moment what he was agreeing too.  But my lawyers seem like nice people (people I could be friends with if I knew them another way) and I am not great at confronting people unless it is in the moment and I cannot keep my mouth shut.  I feel bad (which is dumb I know) saying they didn't do a good job, but right now I honestly felt so alone and like I had no support in there.  I'm also anxious about making things awkward for the remaining things I need them for, but at the same time I do know that I hired them and paid them to do a job, and I don't feel like they did it.

I'm just so crushed.  I don't know how much more I can take.  I'm so angry that he's gotten away with how he's treated me, and now got rewarded for it with my money. 

Thanks for reading.

[ForeverDad]

I just kept being told, if you don't agree today, your only option is court which is very expensive.  I felt like I had to make a decision and agree, or it would be even worse.  This system sucks!  In what world should you be told you have to pay someone 50K and not even get time to think or consult your attorney's after being able to clear your head and digest the information?

My first thought is you got snookered.  His lawyers could have presented only their client's benefits, it's your lawyer who is responsible to look out for your benefits.  My second thought was that you got steamrollered.  Was it the mediator that said all those things?  I wonder if the mediator was more neutral but let his lawyer use such pressuring claims?  Mediation is another word for negotiation or settlement.  That means there is give and take, a little or a lot.

As for court, for us who deal with unreasonable spouses, court is often (but not always of course) "less bad" than an entitled ex's demands in mediation or settlement conferences.  And those demands are often way more extreme when you are in the early stages of a divorce.  Later in the case the ex often loses some entitlement and is "less unreasonable".

I suspect it was unreasonable for you to be told "comply with our terms Now or else court is the only alternative."  In my case, court ordered 3 mediation attempts.  While we used only one - it failed as expected - there was always an option to try again with another mediation session.

Lots of things went wrong, well, I think they did.  Likely I am not in your state so I don't know the rules.  If his lawyer was present, why wasn't your lawyer present too?  Even if your lawyer couldn't attend, he should have advised you to take restroom breaks and call him to update him on how it was going and get updated instructions/advice.  Did you ask for separate mediation rooms so you didn't have to face your ex the entire time?

Lastly, is it really true that they could demand immediate agreement?  I can understand a "this is our offer, take it, or leave it and meet us in court" stance.  But to put that pressure on you was unreasonable.  So an important question is... .is your agreement binding or can you, upon further consideration and advice, have your lawyer notify them that you rescind your initial agreement?

I don't have time to post more right now nor on every issue but I'm sure others will post their thoughts too.  My core question is whether you have an option to rescind your initial mediation agreement.  In some states you're not obligated to an agreement until you state before the court that you still agree to the agreement/settlement.  My point is that court, for us, is often not that bad of a thing.  Yes, court is expensive (lawyer fees) but it may be cheaper — or more emotionally tolerable with fewer regrets later — than giving in to all the ex's demands.

[WantToBeFree]

Was it the mediator that said all those things?  I wonder if the mediator was more neutral but let his lawyer use such pressuring claims? 

Likely I am not in your state so I don't know the rules.  If his lawyer was present, why wasn't your lawyer present too?   Did you ask for separate mediation rooms so you didn't have to face your ex the entire time?

Lastly, is it really true that they could demand immediate agreement?  I can understand a "this is our offer, take it, or leave it and meet us in court" stance.  But to put that pressure on you was unreasonable.  So an important question is... .is your agreement binding or can you, upon further consideration and advice, have your lawyer notify them that you rescind your initial agreement?

My core question is whether you have an option to rescind your initial mediation agreement.[/b]  In some states you're not obligated to an agreement until you state before the court that you still agree to the agreement/settlement.  My point is that court, for us, is often not that bad of a thing.  Yes, court is expensive (lawyer fees) but it may be cheaper — or more emotionally tolerable with fewer regrets later — than giving in to all the ex's demands.

Yes it was the mediator saying all those things about I have to decide now and you don't want to go to court.  I was told that my lawyers use him a lot for mediation so we could basically "get whatever we want" (which isn't really an accurate statement anyway since mediators are not judges and cannot order anything) but I felt the mediator was much more on my ex's side, and he even said how he'd known his lawyer for many years and what a nice guy he is. 

One of my lawyers was there, the junior one I guess you would call her.  She is the one I have been dealing with mostly, but the senior one (the one I originally met with for the consultation) was the one who was an hour or more late, and she had all of my paperwork and statements.  Even once they were both there, neither one seemed very present.  I know the senior one had an issue getting her son to school and was upset that he'd had an accident on the way which was why she was late (relatable as a mother yes, but not my problem in terms of what was at stake that day with mediation).  They also told me the senior lawyer is going through a divorce herself... .again not my problem.  I hired them for MY divorce, her divorce should not really be brought up. 

Yes, I was in a separate room from my ex, except for at the end when we had to hear the agreement read aloud while being recorded and we had to each say in a million different ways that we agreed with the proceedings and we did so all on our own free will and that we understood that we could not come back tomorrow and want to rescind after thinking about it (God forbid we get to actually think about what just happened and decide if that's best for me and my daughter). 

I am in Michigan, just FYI.  I'm going to call another lawyer today and get a consultation just to see if what happened is common, do I have any recourse, and was I represented fairly.  Thank you for your input.  It's nice to know I am not just being a baby and that it definitely did not feel right how it all went down.

[ForeverDad]

Have you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?  One emphasis made early in the book is that we need proactive and experienced attorneys.  While court and lawyers do prefer settlements over hearings, trials and decisions, many lawyers have limited expertise and are accustomed to merely filing forms and holding hands.  I do realize your state can be quite different from most other states, but I had the impression that men were the disadvantaged spouses there.

We here aren't lawyers and so can't give legal advice.  However, we have been "around the block a few times" and have "been there, done that".  So please feel free to browse and ask, quite often we do have a good range of practical suggestions and time-tested strategies that have generally worked in the past for many of us.

How did you settle the custodial and parenting schedule details for your daughter?  Probably she'll be in school starting next autumn.  I'm guessing he wanted more money and less debt than a real interest in parenting?

[DivDad]

I have been to court three times with my uBPDex. I know what you are going through. You are not alone but there is light at the end of the tunnel. My initial divorce L was a good ‘ol boy who did a boilerplate divorce and custody document.  A good thing for a pBPD to violate, but a disaster for a non-BPD and the children.
My second L was schooled in high impact divorces w/children and was a godsend.

To your points, some states recognize IRA’s and retirement accounts as marital property for division no matter who’s name is on the account.  Some stated do not.   I assume your state does.  Just Google to find out what the general law state.

Some observations…  (1) First, I am not a lawyer, but I would definitely get a second opinion from a detached L. Not informing you of the IRA laws prior to mediation is questionable.  As ForeverDad mentioned, become pro-active. A second L opinion will give you some peace of mind if the mediation was fair and equitable.   You need some clarification as to what non-marital property (property/assets you received before the marriage including inheritance) is covered by your state.  (2) inquire if the mediation document is fait accompli or if it can be reopened. (3) Usually, divorce courts look at property division to be “equitable.”  This can certainly mean many things to many people and courts.  Your second opinion L can advise on that.  (4) What seems to be missing in the property division equation is the custody agreement of the D4.  One would assume that this would be part of the property division equation.  You did not mention if the custody agreement was finalized.  (5) Setting aside what has already happened, you need to get some tax advice on how best to transfer the IRA funds so you don’t get penalized come income tax time.  I recall there is a time limit and tax procedure for the fund transfer.  (6) Backtracking to the custody agreement, this is something that you can certainly mediate, but if it is not meeting to your complete satisfaction on all issues, I would definitely head to court.  The long-term well-being of your D4 is certainly more important than the marital asset issue.  Don't settle on a boilerplate custody agreement and parent schedule. It does not bode well for the non-BPD.

[ForeverDad]

We are anonymous and remote, so we can't know every detail of your situation.  When we say most of us can't obtain an successful mediation, that's true.  The conflict is high at the start of a divorce, and generally the entitlement too.  He may seem nice but he let his lawyers be, in essence, attack dogs.  For the mediator to say his lawyers are so nice but had you devastated and overwhelmed in tears.

One site said this, "Mediation may not be ideal in some situations, such as where one spouse is hiding assets. In addition, it may not even be available under the law where there are minor children or domestic abuse involved."

As regards retirement accounts, do not give him even a penny from there.  Why?  If you withdraw the money and cut him a check, then YOU would be responsible for the tax and early withdrawal penalties.  And they are substantial!  Even having your 401(k) company to write him a check stating "to be deposited only into a retirement account" could be sabotaged if he decided not to put it properly into his own retirement account.  The only way to be sure it is done right is to have a divorce court order a DRO (domestic relations order, have the retirement company confirm it was prepared right and sent back to the court to confirm as QDRO (qualified).

My lawyer was going to handle my QDRO for nearly $1000.  He trusted my responsible nature and let me handle it.  I found an online site (QDRODesk) for less than half the cost.  When it finally came time for the transfer, my retirement company didn't send a check.  Instead — and this is key to being protected — they created an account for her, moved the money over to her brand new retirement account in her name and notified her of the details.  From that point on I had no exposure to financial risk no matter what she did with it thereafter.  If she took anything out before the minimum age, all the taxes and penalties were her problem, not mine.

My point is that any money coming out of a retirement account must be done exactly right in every detail.  Your task is to ensure you don't pay the price for someone else's mistake or carelessness.

[david]

Did you sign anything agreeing to the terms ? If not, I don't believe it is binding. If you did sign something you may be able to "change your mind" since it is a mediation.  Not sure but an attorney should know this. If your attorney was not present you may be able to argue that so you can change the terms. Just throwing some thoughts out there and I may be incorrect.
I went to one mediation with my ex. It went on for several hours and I finally said I am done and I will see you in court. We actually had a court date the next day and ex had an agreement that was exactly what I was seeking. It was about custody only.
I would seek a second opinion. My first lawyer was not very good and it took me about two years to figure that out. I thought the lawyer would have my best interest but I discovered all she was interested in was billable hours and she followed the same template for all her clients.
I eventually started looking for another attorney. It took a few months and a bunch of meetings until I found one I thought was good. From that point on I knew what to expect in court and it pretty much played out the way my attorney said it would. Also, I knew what the attorney needed to "win" and gave him everything he needed to accomplish what I was seeking.
My ex wanted my IRA too. My proposal was she kept whatever she had and I kept whatever I had. Ex's attorney said no and my attorney turned around and, I forget the legal term, but it is a long and drawn out process that costs a lot of money and we would wind up with almost nothing. Exs' attorney did not call his bluff.
Another thought to ponder. If my ex never spiraled into the abyss she is in our house would have been paid off in 2010 and we would have been very comfortable right now financially. During equitable distribution we settled on a number that was in my favor but also gave ex about $ 14,000 more than my attorney thought she should get. I looked at my attorney and the court officer was in the room. Ex was out of the room with her attorney. I explained that we would have to go back to court and I would still be married for another 10 months or so. At least $8,000 would go to attorney fees so I figured $6,000 would go to me. If I agree to the terms in front of me I would not be married by the end of the next working day. Priceless as the commercial goes.
I stopped counting at $72,000 in costs. It took me from 2010 to 2017 to almost dig myself out of that hole. It isn't pleasant but that which does not destroy you makes you stronger. I am a happier person today than I was in 2007 through 2010. We have two boys together. The youngest is 15 now. I still have to communicate with ex but I only communicate through email. From the things I hear from our boys and others ex is still an angry disordered person. Believe it or not I do feel bad for her but I didn't cause it and I can't fix it. I still say prayers for her to find some kind of happiness. I wouldn't put money on it though.

[WantToBeFree]

Have you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger? 

How did you settle the custodial and parenting schedule details for your daughter?  Probably she'll be in school starting next autumn.  I'm guessing he wanted more money and less debt than a real interest in parenting?

I have not read it, but I will check it out.  Our temporary agreement for D4 is that we have joint legal custody, and I have sole physical custody with him having visitation every Wednesday from 4-7... .he is currently living at his parents, and our D4 had always gone there on Wednesdays since she was a baby.  So my MIL picks her up from preschool around noon, and has her all day and he supposedly spends time with her when he wakes up since he works midnights.  He also has her every other weekend.

Back at our custody hearing (court messed up and didn't have us down for that day, but since we were all there, we met with our lawyers anyway) he wanted to either move back in the house, or get more parenting time.  My lawyer (I did feel she did a good job that day) said no on moving back in the house.  He was physically abusive to me in front of our D4.  She also said no to more parenting time since he never even called her on days he isn't with her (since June he has not called her even one time, so on my weekends, he goes an entire week with no contact with her).  His lawyer rolled over pretty quickly on that and we agreed to keep things as they were.

I am quite sure he only wanted more parenting time in order to lessen his future child support payment.  He was never a very good dad to her, and even now I am quite certain she spends the majority of time during his time with her, with my MIL and niece who frequently is there.  We did agree at mediation that if he were to get off the midnight shift in the future that we could re-visit the arrangement.  But once he has his own place, I forsee her still being with his parents on his weekends, because how could he possibly watch her when he sleeps during the day, and I know her preference is being with her Nana and Papa (she'll likely whine to go there until he gives in and takes her).  When I pick her up, most days she comes running, so happy to see me.  When she does whine to stay longer, it's to be with her Nana, not her daddy.  So I am really hoping that once he has his own place, and has even less opportunity to be with her, he will just fade off into the background so he has no recourse for getting more time.  I highly highly doubt he will ever be the father she needs and deserves, so I would prefer he just go away and his parents can raise her during his time. 

[WantToBeFree]

I have been to court three times with my uBPDex. I know what you are going through. You are not alone but there is light at the end of the tunnel. My initial divorce L was a good ‘ol boy who did a boilerplate divorce and custody document.  A good thing for a pBPD to violate, but a disaster for a non-BPD and the children.
My second L was schooled in high impact divorces w/children and was a godsend.


Some observations…  (1) First, I am not a lawyer, but I would definitely get a second opinion from a detached L. Not informing you of the IRA laws prior to mediation is questionable.   You need some clarification as to what non-marital property (property/assets you received before the marriage including inheritance) is covered by your state.  (2) inquire if the mediation document is fait accompli or if it can be reopened. (3) Usually, divorce courts look at property division to be “equitable.”  This can certainly mean many things to many people and courts.  Your second opinion L can advise on that.  (4) What seems to be missing in the property division equation is the custody agreement of the D4.  One would assume that this would be part of the property division equation.  You did not mention if the custody agreement was finalized(

Thank you!  How exactly do you go about changing lawyers?  I was told for all intents and purposes, we are done.  But we drew a judge who is a stickler on the 6 month waiting period when a minor child is involved, so that would make the end of January before he will officially stamp our case as the divorce being final. 

Obviously if I get a new lawyer, I kiss my retainer with my current one goodbye and pay the retainer for my new one... .but do things just pick up where we left off?  Or can some stuff be re-done I wonder.  Of course these are questions for the new lawyer, but I was just wondering your experience.

From a legal standpoint, I can definitely understand him getting what he did for the house.  I think HE should have declined that much, knowing he does not deserve it, but obviously, if he were a fair and kind person, we wouldn't be divorcing in the first place.  I am just angry at my lawyer for basically telling me that because the house was in my name, purchased before marriage, and the huge majority of the mortgage was paid by me, then I had nothing to worry about.  But I get to mediation and that L says it was purchased "together" and we lived in it for the duration of our marriage, so it was marital property, end of story.  I owe him half of the equity and I should be "happy" he didn't ask for half of its full value.  So while maybe nothing can be done about what I owe him, it's not right at all that my lawyer basically lied to me about the house.

Yes, I definitely need to know if the mediation agreement can be undone or re-opened.  They made it sound very final, saying that it cannot be re-opened, it cannot be changed, and yes I did sign a document.  However, I'm seeing that lies have been told, so maybe there is a possibility of it being reopened, they just don't want to have to, so they make it seem impossible.  Perhaps the fact that his lawyer did NOT provide us with his summary of what they were seeking is grounds to get it thrown out and re-done.  In which case 1) maybe my ex would agree to not going for my IRA (he says he doesn't want it and he seems upset that I want nothing to do with him because of this).  and 2) I and/or my lawyers (or a new lawyer) could argue for me for a change, to make things more fair and threaten court. 

They kept saying that you don't want to go to court, you don't want to go to court.  It was like they were trying to keep me from even attempting to negotiate, I felt pressured to just agree and make things easy.  But had I said no, he is not getting half my IRA, he is not getting his whole truck or we're going to court, it's very possible his lawyer would have said ok, it's not worth it to go to court for her IRA.  I felt like my lawyers did not have my back at all. 

I replied about the custody arrangement to ForeverDad, but yes, it was discussed.  I have sole physical, we have joint legal.  He has visitation every Wednesday and every other weekend.  So I am good with that, especially considering once he gets his own place (he's currently staying at his parents) D4 will still likely be at his parents because he works midnights and cannot possibly watch her when he is sleeping.   

[WantToBeFree]

He may seem nice but he let his lawyers be, in essence, attack dogs. 


As regards retirement accounts, do not give him even a penny from there.  Why?  If you withdraw the money and cut him a check, then YOU would be responsible for the tax and early withdrawal penalties.  And they are substantial!  Even having your 401(k) company to write him a check stating "to be deposited only into a retirement account" could be sabotaged if he decided not to put it properly into his own retirement account.  The only way to be sure it is done right is to have a divorce court order a DRO (domestic relations order, have the retirement company confirm it was prepared right and sent back to the court to confirm as QDRO (qualified).

My lawyer was going to handle my QDRO for nearly $1000.  He trusted my responsible nature and let me handle it.  I found an online site (QDRODesk) for less than half the cost.  When it finally came time for the transfer, my retirement company didn't send a check.  Instead — and this is key to being protected — they created an account for her, moved the money over to her brand new retirement account in her name and notified her of the details.  From that point on I had no exposure to financial risk no matter what she did with it thereafter.  If she took anything out before the minimum age, all the taxes and penalties were her problem, not mine.

My point is that any money coming out of a retirement account must be done exactly right in every detail.  Your task is to ensure you don't pay the price for someone else's mistake or carelessness.

Yes, my H's MO is basically to claim ignorance.  He says something hurtful, and then weeks later claims no recollection of saying that, and swears he did not mean to hurt me.  In this case, he claims he did not want my IRA, but yet he sat there and let his lawyer take it.  I even asked if I could speak to him, but he followed his lawyers advice to decline.  I do believe partly he didn't understand what was going on... .I handled all of the finances when we were together, I did EVERYTHING short of hand feeding him and wiping his ass.  But at some point he had to have been aware and think wait, why am I getting this?  I don't really deserve it.  But like I said, he's so helpless, he likely thought he couldn't speak up and say no I don't want it.  Or, he has completely snowballed me more than I ever realized, and he is capable of so much more, and just claims ignorance to get out of things.  I don't really know anymore. 

Thank you for the IRA advice.  That is very helpful and I will definitely research it.

[david]

There may be a time limit as to when you can challenge something legally so you will want to talk to attorneys soon if you want to go in that direction.

[ForeverDad]

If only... .

We didn't know you had mediation scheduled, so we didn't specifically mention what perspectives and boundaries you need to have as you walked in... .that you didn't have to feel pressured to "sign now or else"... .that you could say "no" with virtual impunity or even "I need time to process this"... .

Fortunately, your custody and parenting position have been and remain strong.  That's the biggest priority.

It was predictable that he tried for more scheduled time.  However, in my state I found out that equal time didn't alter my child support by much when I moved up from alternate weekends.  It actually went up, not down, but that probably was due to me making a little more during the passage of about 3 years.

So now you need to determine how good, neutral or bad the financial terms are.  We can't be sure what your options are, but the sooner you find out and the sooner you decide how to remedy them, the better.  When seeking a lawyer, one question can be, "If you yourself were facing a divorce as I've described, who would you entrust your case to?"  That's not an unfair question.  Lawyers, especially good ones, will recognize they won't get every person who walks in for a consultation as a client.

Are your lawyers comfortable fighting cases at trial?  If so, did they think you were only disappointed but not distressed how the finances aspect turned out?  Did they concur with the mediator and other side that you have to decide that day to agree or disagree to the terms?  As I wrote into another post, going to court is expensive but on the other hand it often is "less unfair".  So it can also be a question of which is worst, the lawyer fees (the lion's share of the expense of court) or how much the ex gets.

As an aside, ex probably should get his truck without much of a fuss, as long as he also takes all debt associated with it.  I'm assuming it's not some tricked-out super truck?  It can be "you get the truck, I get some other benefit" sort of deal.  (Beware that a court order stating he's responsible for the truck debt is far different from him actually going the extra mile and getting a new loan and removing you as liable for payment.  Courts are notorious for making orders and not enforcing them.  Just because a court order states that you're not liable doesn't force the lenders to ignore you if they have you as a signer on the dotted line.)

[DivDad]

Wantobefree. You asked, “How exactly did you go about changing lawyers?  Once I realized that L #1 was a smooth talking, boilerplate divorce lawyer, I googled “high impact divorce attorneys” in my city and found a half dozen good candidates. I made an appointment with two…and picked one.

1) Regarding the possibility of losing the retainer on your current L, for now, it’s not an either or consideration.  All you are doing now is meeting with a neutral L for legal advice (and counsel) on what happened at mediation…and if you have any options.  That can be done independently without dropping your current L.   You are just seeking legal counsel in order to get some clarity on whether the mediation procedures/results are final, or could they be re-opened.  What you are independently looking for is… what does the law say in your state. 

2)Find a good divorce L and schedule a one- hour consultation.  You are not seeking a new L at this point in time.  What you are seeking in independent advice on what happened at mediation with your current lawyer and your ex's L. Don’t spend a lot of time rehashing the past.  Have in your hand a number of specific written legal questions that you want answered during the session.  The list should include:  (i.e. IRA distribution issue, your own inheritance money and spend during the marriage, house ownership in your name prior to marriage/equity distribution, any connectivity between mediated asset distribution and child care/custody, no financial disclosure document from ex at mediation, felt pressured by both attorneys, can mediation agreement be reopened?, etc. etc.  Have a structured list for discussion.  If it looks like you don’t have recourse, just let the asset issues go and keep on driving for the final divorce decree in six months.

3) To answer your second question about my outcome, I was more focused on parenting schedules and getting structure for my sons rather than asset/money issues. 

4) Also, don’t count on your ex to be reasonable about the IRA distribution. It appears to be a legitimate divorce distribution in your state.  If there is not legal recourse, pBPD will drag out a discussion and lead you along.  Sometimes it’s just a game to stay connected.  If you have no legal recourse, just move on.  Using your own words in your last post, your ex is probably “snowballing you more than you realize.”  pBPD are clever and good actors.  And yes, pBPD are “capable of so much more.”

[worriedStepmom]

The settlement you describe is standard in a community property state like mine.  I don't know if Michigan is a community property state or not.

Your mistake was using your inheritance to buy things for him or things to benefit the two of you.  Once the money is comingled/used for him, it's usually no longer separate property.

I'm really sorry that you are so upset and that your lawyers didn't better prepare you.

[ForeverDad]

Yes, commingling the money does weaken the claim of it being your inheritance rather than marital funds.  But that applies to past use.  Make sure that whatever money left remains in a separate account and in your name, at least until the divorce is complete and final.

[WantToBeFree]

The settlement you describe is standard in a community property state like mine.  I don't know if Michigan is a community property state or not.

Your mistake was using your inheritance to buy things for him or things to benefit the two of you.  Once the money is comingled/used for him, it's usually no longer separate property.

I'm really sorry that you are so upset and that your lawyers didn't better prepare you.

It's not, Michigan is an equitable distribution state.  Which I just learned the other day, and I really wish I had known prior to last week.  I am generally very good about advocating for myself, and researching, but I guess since divorce is so complicated with law AND emotions, I figured that was why I had a lawyer. 

I have a clear paper trail showing that my inheritance was kept separate, and the mortgage pay off was paid strictly out of the inheritance.  I now know that it most likely should not have been considered marital property (since it was purchased before we got married) and even if it were, there are so many factors the judge would have looked at that would have been in my favor had we gone to court.  Or that I could have at least threatened court, and saw if they called my bluff or not in mediation.

Thank you!

[WantToBeFree]

Yes, commingling the money does weaken the claim of it being your inheritance rather than marital funds.  But that applies to past use.  Make sure that whatever money left remains in a separate account and in your name, at least until the divorce is complete and final.

Yep, it is 

[WantToBeFree]

Hey all, just thought I would give an update with how things ended up.  So we're basically in the same place I was when I wrote this.  But I did get some answers at least.  I tried calling another lawyer for advice, but they never called back.  I don't know if she was just that busy, or maybe she knew my lawyers personally and/or professional and didn't want to take me on, I don't know.

So I did eventually speak with another one... .he said my signing the mediation agreement is binding.  He said I could possibly hire a family lawyer to fight to say that I signed under duress, but I've decided against that.  Between my two lawyers, the mediator and my ex's lawyer all likely saying I did NOT sign under duress, I just don't think my chances are good.  It's she said vs they said.  Plus I am recorded saying I understand that I cannot change my mind and that I have made this decision under my own free will (because I told over and over that not signing would mean going to court where I would still lose but pay a ton more money to my lawyers).  Pretty damning.  I still think the whole mediation was bull___, but not much I can do about it.

Even if I could get it thrown out, I don't see much of anything changing... .he would still get a percentage of the house, but this time may even go for more just to spite me, and would still get half of my IRA.  The ONLY benefit I could possibly get is to get half of his truck's equity, which is only $7500.  Not worth it considering another lawyers retainer and any additional costs.

So as you all said, my ex will not agree to not take my IRA.  I told him if he agrees not to take it, they can put that in the judgement of divorce that he has decided to decline it, and just sign.  He said he would have to think about it (but right after mediation he was all sad that I was upset and said he didn't want it, what a joke).  I gave him a week and then I asked if he had thought about it.  He said he had not.  Translation: he knew what he was going to do, he was just either going to make me work for it, or just plain not agree to declining it.

A few days later I finally asked if we could talk about it... .I was terrified of his answer, but I needed to know.  So he called me, and sure enough he says no, he's taking it.  I told him it has nothing to do with our marriage, he did not contribute to it whatsoever... .he claims it's the law that screwed me, not him.  I do understand the point of the law.  My mother did not work the entire time she and my dad were married.  She had a lot of mental illness (my relationship and desire to work things out with my husband very much mirorrs the struggles I had with my mother when she was alive), so she had no work history for the past 30 years and no education past high school.  If my dad had left her, she would have had no retirement savings.  So I get it.  But my ex has been gainfully employed for the entire length of our relationship... .his employer did not provide a 401K but nothing was stopping him from saving on his own.

It pisses me off that laws like this that are supposed to help people, totally screw over other people.  So I got mad and screamed at him that he does not have to take it and he IS the one that is screwing me over.  So he hung up on me.  So that's that, I have to pay him 30K for the house, 23K of my retirement, he gets his truck free and clear (he does still owe 5k, but could easily sell today for 20K, pay it off and pocket 15K) he gets the camper (I did get half of it's value) which will likely just sit there and he'll never take our D4 camping even though he knows she loves it, and I am stuck with half of the CC debt despite way more than half being his.

And this is all after he has helped spend 90% of the inheritance my grandparents left me.  Yes, I did willingly spend some of it on him and for us together, but he blew at least half of it by just running up the credit card and I used inheritance time and time again to pay off the CC, hoping to bail us out, but then he would just run it up again.  The only silver lining is I DO still have a little left, so at least I am not left with nothing, and the 23K from my IRA I will insist he uphold his agreement to open an IRA so I can transfer the money without incurring penalties.  That will surely piss him off to have that money stuck in a retirement account, rather than being handed a check for 53k.  Though I wouldn't be surprised if he pays the penalty to get it out, and blows that and the 30k within a couple years, just like he did my inheritance.

The thing that pisses me off so much is I know the main reason he is taking my IRA is to punish me for leaving.  He claims he didn't want any of this, he didn't want a divorce.  Ha, so maybe in the future he should not treat his wife like absolute garbage if he wants to stay married.  The other silver lining is, once he said he was taking it, I blocked him on FB and told him to not even speak to me again unless it involved D4 (I know that's killing him, he keeps texting me a few times a day, but if it's not about her, I ignore it).  I also told him good luck getting anything out of the house that isn't clothes, or on the very short list of items he provided at mediation that he wants.  Other than that, I am keeping everything, and selling all his crap.  I also plan to have a cop at the house when he moves out so he cannot take anything he is not supposed to.

[ForeverDad]

the 23K from my IRA I will insist he uphold his agreement to open an IRA so I can transfer the money without incurring penalties.

You can't even let him get his hands on the check.  Even if it's addressed to his retirement account, he could still take the check and cash it.  Your lawyer needs to hold it in some sort of safekeeping and ensure it goes to the proper destination retirement account, not him.  You can't risk being held accountable for any taxes or penalties caused by him ignoring the law.

What he does with it after that is no concern of yours.

[david]

I was divorced in 2012. We had some stocks and bonds in both of our names. It was around $10,000. Ex had possession of the stocks and bonds. I simply asked for my half in cash since we had enough in an escrow account from the sale of the house. Ex insisted she wanted to put both in our boys names for college. I said that was her decision but I wanted my half from the escrow account. I did not believe her. My attorney talked to me and I basically told him our boys would never see that money. He wrote in our divorce that ex had to sell and put them in our boys name within 30 days. The money disappeared. I sent several emails to her and she made various excuses. I never pursued it since it seemed like it would cost me more in legal fees than it was worth.

[ForeverDad]

Courts can make an order but they're quite weak on enforcement.  We get stuck with complying but somehow the disordered ex-spouses get away with almost anything.