My reply to the translator

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So XL, my Chinese "girlfriend" left Thursday.  After a last month here of utter confusion for me since she basically cut me off from her life and we didn't spend a day in each other's arms. Basically the day after she gushed how happy she was to have another month for us to be together, the day after she was so sad to be leaving and how much she would miss me and would I come live with her in Chengdu. The day after she told me she couldn't sleep worrying about my big meeting and how she spent the entire afternoon at St. Patricks Cathedral praying for my success.

It was confusing to say the least, made more so by her constantly telling me nothing was wrong between us and I had nothing to worry about, not to mention dinner with her friends who told me the same and affirmed how much I meant to her. Not to mention the dinner with my mother she asked for which responded to the way most women would have to a proposal, finally cornering me in the kitchen to tell me how overjoyed she was to be introduced to my mother, to find that she loves her and to invite me with love in her eyes "you come to me in Chengdu" which meant come stay with her in her home 1/2 a world away.

She pulled back hard the next day even though she invited me to a last dinner.

When I reached out to her friend (her best friend's son who had translated for us) to see what had happened he sent me this, pretty much the same time as she was boarding her plane with a cryptic text "Tell your mother I love her" without a word about me or us and when she landed "I did not want to make you sad. Thank you. XL"

I was chatting XL just now. I think I kinda understand why. XL  was hesitating about whether to forward your relationship. She told me privately that Michael was one of the nicest person she encountered in her life. She hasn’t never met someone who cares so much about her. But she was worried, since she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship. There are so many things she should be concerned about: language barrier, cultural differences, geographic distance... .It will be a big challenge for both of you. That’s why she needs time and space to think over, and she thinks you should do too. That’s why she doesn’t want to get too closer to you at this point (She’s leaving for at least half a year, and it would be painful for both of you if you are in the stage of “cannot live without each other”). Here’s my personal opinion: In China, there’s a term called 缘分, literally translated as fate/destiny. If two individuals has 缘分 to be together ultimately, nothing can break them apart. If there’s no 缘分 in between, nothing can force them together

As with his translations when we met to "figure it out" this is a 1/2 truth that leaves out the context and facts. As such it sounds reasonable but I really cannot reply since it would have made sense 6 weeks ago when we were in the throes of our passion and she was so excited about a whole month together and got scared. I knew why she pulled back and said it here and everywhere else. it is all ... .fair ... .and even smart.  But it is not true after the fact.

I replied to him:

"Hi , sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I wasn't sure how reply but to since you were nice enough to take the time to give me your thoughts after I reached out I felt it would be rude not to.

As with many things that you translated at the wine bar I have no good way to answer since it seems you only have some of the facts. That is hardly your fault but it becomes impossible for me to reply to just part of the truth. I did so at the wine bar and don't want to do so again because it just confuses us all.  So I'll just say thank you so much for your time and concern and empathy."

I'm trying to be gracious at his attempt to help even though it is a message from her. Which she could have done me the decency of sharing herself 6 weeks ago let alone before she flew out of my life.

I'm trying quite hard to not carpet-bomb the entire relationship, to not jump to conclusions that she was stepping out on me for 6 weeks while keeping me on a string (lack of affection, intimacy, contact) with all of the reassurances and friends telling me how much I meant and the night at my mothers.

I'm trying to avoid my reactive instincts on this one and just... .trust.  She could have said through him "she decided it is too hard there are too many challenges" and been done with it but did not. So I'm trying to not say to myself "she kept me on a string for 6 weeks and now wants me on a string for 6 months" and just believe in what we had/have and believe in who my heart tells me she is.

But i had to say something to him to let him know I can't communicate with him or with her with 1/2 truths. So I'll just bide my time until someone decides they want to say something real to me or she has the time and the space to figure that out. I'm trying to hold on to the belief we have something real that transcends our challenges.

I went out with a girl on Saturday night I''ve spoken to twice before and had 7 hours of non-stop amazing conversation about life, the universe and everything.  It was a great time and an amazing conversation but wha struck me was this;  I have not had one real conversation with XL other than by translated text and still from the first day and now 3 months later we still have this connection we are both trying to hold on to that I haven't come close to with all the women I speak and have spoken to. I'm hoping that means something.

I plan on waiting 2 weeks or so and sending her a letter. Not an email. Not a text. A letter in an envelope. About nothing really. A couple stories about my childhood when I was in Holland. An opening to what i hope becomes a longer conversation, via snail mail, where we learn about each other without pressure or even romance. I see it as watering a fragile but beauitful blade of grass that stands out in the field and see if it becomes as rare as it seems.

[1stTimer]

So XL, my Chinese "girlfriend" left Thursday.  After a last month here of utter confusion for me since she basically cut me off from her life and we didn't spend a day in each other's arms. Basically the day after she gushed how happy she was to have another month for us to be together, the day after she was so sad to be leaving and how much she would miss me and would I come live with her in Chengdu. The day after she told me she couldn't sleep worrying about my big meeting and how she spent the entire afternoon at St. Patricks Cathedral praying for my success.

It was confusing to say the least, made more so by her constantly telling me nothing was wrong between us and I had nothing to worry about, not to mention dinner with her friends who told me the same and affirmed how much I meant to her. Not to mention the dinner with my mother she asked for which responded to the way most women would have to a proposal, finally cornering me in the kitchen to tell me how overjoyed she was to be introduced to my mother, to find that she loves her and to invite me with love in her eyes "you come to me in Chengdu" which meant come stay with her in her home 1/2 a world away.

She pulled back hard the next day even though she invited me to a last dinner.

When I reached out to her friend (her best friend's son who had translated for us) to see what had happened he sent me this, pretty much the same time as she was boarding her plane with a cryptic text "Tell your mother I love her" without a word about me or us and when she landed "I did not want to make you sad. Thank you. XL"

I was chatting XL just now. I think I kinda understand why. XL  was hesitating about whether to forward your relationship. She told me privately that Michael was one of the nicest person she encountered in her life. She hasn’t never met someone who cares so much about her. But she was worried, since she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship. There are so many things she should be concerned about: language barrier, cultural differences, geographic distance... .It will be a big challenge for both of you. That’s why she needs time and space to think over, and she thinks you should do too. That’s why she doesn’t want to get too closer to you at this point (She’s leaving for at least half a year, and it would be painful for both of you if you are in the stage of “cannot live without each other”). Here’s my personal opinion: In China, there’s a term called 缘分, literally translated as fate/destiny. If two individuals has 缘分 to be together ultimately, nothing can break them apart. If there’s no 缘分 in between, nothing can force them together

As with his translations when we met to "figure it out" this is a 1/2 truth that leaves out the context and facts. As such it sounds reasonable but I really cannot reply since it would have made sense 6 weeks ago when we were in the throes of our passion and she was so excited about a whole month together and got scared. I knew why she pulled back and said it here and everywhere else. it is all ... .fair ... .and even smart.  But it is not true after the fact.

I replied to him:

"Hi , sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I wasn't sure how reply but to since you were nice enough to take the time to give me your thoughts after I reached out I felt it would be rude not to.

As with many things that you translated at the wine bar I have no good way to answer since it seems you only have some of the facts. That is hardly your fault but it becomes impossible for me to reply to just part of the truth. I did so at the wine bar and don't want to do so again because it just confuses us all.  So I'll just say thank you so much for your time and concern and empathy."

I'm trying to be gracious at his attempt to help even though it is a message from her. Which she could have done me the decency of sharing herself 6 weeks ago let alone before she flew out of my life.

I'm trying quite hard to not carpet-bomb the entire relationship, to not jump to conclusions that she was stepping out on me for 6 weeks while keeping me on a string (lack of affection, intimacy, contact) with all of the reassurances and friends telling me how much I meant and the night at my mothers.

I'm trying to avoid my reactive instincts on this one and just... .trust.  She could have said through him "she decided it is too hard there are too many challenges" and been done with it but did not. So I'm trying to not say to myself "she kept me on a string for 6 weeks and now wants me on a string for 6 months" and just believe in what we had/have and believe in who my heart tells me she is.

But i had to say something to him to let him know I can't communicate with him or with her with 1/2 truths. So I'll just bide my time until someone decides they want to say something real to me or she has the time and the space to figure that out. I'm trying to hold on to the belief we have something real that transcends our challenges.

I went out with a girl on Saturday night I''ve spoken to twice before and had 7 hours of non-stop amazing conversation about life, the universe and everything.  It was a great time and an amazing conversation but wha struck me was this;  I have not had one real conversation with XL other than by translated text and still from the first day and now 3 months later we still have this connection we are both trying to hold on to that I haven't come close to with all the women I speak and have spoken to. I'm hoping that means something.

I plan on waiting 2 weeks or so and sending her a letter. Not an email. Not a text. A letter in an envelope. About nothing really. A couple stories about my childhood when I was in Holland. An opening to what i hope becomes a longer conversation, via snail mail, where we learn about each other without pressure or even romance. I see it as watering a fragile but beauitful blade of grass that stands out in the field and see if it becomes as rare as it seems.

[1stTimer]

Man I just found this old text in my email from the end of September. And people wonder why I am so confused:

"Dear, don't be nervous, I believe you are the greatest, no matter what happens I'll stand by you! Good luck to you my dear! Dear please remember I support you forever! You'll always be lucky! No matter what happens I will always be there for you!"

and the next day

"I'm so happy because I know you! I don't even want to leave New York Now!"

[1stTimer]

Annnnd it continues. Decided to reply to her 'I don't want to make you sad" text from when she landed. Texted her "Mostly you make me happy. I hope Chengdu welcomed you well". This at 4:09am her time. Got back 1 minute "Thank you very much! You can use this # to add me to wechat"

Hmm. I assumed maybe it was an auto-reply since this is at the NY # she had and figured she might be transitioning NY people and it is 4am and it was an immediate reply to me AND I just deleted her from weChat a week ago to her WAILING distress 'why ? ? ? ! ! !' so just in case I replied 'Ok thank you I will" just to test if it was an auto-reply. I got back what is prettttttty clearly not

"I wish you would stop being angry and unhappy! This is my China phone number, you coco to find me forever! This number of WeChat is my phone number in chengdu which I will always use"

Hard to tell from my experience with her if her first sentence is angry or pleading (I have NEVER experienced her angry before) but either way the take for me is:

1) She replied to my text like a trigger at 4am
2) She invited me back to weChat

So I'm steppin' verrrrry lightly now.

[1stTimer]

Done

[1stTimer]

You know man, I couldn't even provide an update that makes sense. I think the woman is very much NOT who I believed she is. I think the whole "I am so innocent I have not been with a man since my divorce you are my first" is a load of crapola. I don't know why she came to my home to meet my mother but she had ulterior motives that had nothing to do with me.  End of the day all the things I loved about her seem to not be her so I have nothing to fight for, and once I stopped being so great because "you never get mad at her if she is late or cancels and are so good to her" and started having some expectations she didn't like that me so much.

The fact she was so shocked I cut her off after her rude behavior our last dinner together (the one SHE invited ME to) speaks volumes.  If I slept with some girl in China for 3 months, implied and said I wanted a future, asked to meet her parents the week before I left, acted like it was a life changing event then took her hands and invited her to come to the US to live with me, then invited her to dinner and ignored her most of the night and ordered an uber 1/2 through and ran outside and said 'ok see you next year' I'd be a s*** of the highest order but at least I'd KNOW I was one. For whatever reason I may have done so (didn't really want her, got scared, super busy work) I'd KNOW I acted horribly to her. Her 'why?' tells me all I need to know about her core selfishness and it has only gotten worse since.

Perhaps it is true what allllll her friends said "She has never been treated so well, with such respect, no one has cared for her and taken care of her and been such a gentleman". Especially, according to her friend, Chinese men. Maybe she didn't know how to accept it and took it for granted, I don't like to be taken for granted. I don't want my mother's home or time disrespected for someone's agenda.

I had a really nice sweet non-romantic first letter all ready to send out I'm tearing it up.

A nice side story is I seem to have made sort of friends with her NY friend, the translator kid who turns out to be a super sweet nice guy with similar interests. I told him he is released from any obligation to speak between/for us, that that subject is closed but he is welcome to keep in touch so he is coming next month to dinner with his very nice girlfriend. Maybe this whole thing was so I made a new friend and appreciated a new culture. Her, not so much.

[Skip]

So nothing new happened? You have just reconsidered after reviewing the past events?

[1stTimer]

New stuff happened but it is largely irrelevant as details. I'm just seeing and hearing about the real her and it is not nice and it is not good.  Every day a different story from him or from her; september and october cannot co-exist, our translation meeting and mom's dinner and his letter cannot co-exist, the things he said later and his letter cannot co-exist. There is some HUGE thing I do not know and am not being told. I'll tell you what I end up feeling like; a mistress.  To me, everything adds up to being a US filing for a married woman. Everything. Like a local hottie for a Big Wig CEO. I even said that to her when she gave me her ___e about "I am very busy I had clients to meet!" as an excuse for bailing with Uber w/o a word with 1/2 our "goodbye" dinner done and quick wave and goodbye. She could simply not understand it was wrong and not consider an apology and was in fact annoyed I was hurt or upset.  "I am not the mistress of a busy CEO. I am a man trying to give a woman the relationship she asked him for".

There is just an element of her that is filled with utter disregard for other people. Even looking at the kvelling by all her friends; it is all about how well I treat HER and how good I make HER feel and how I do everything for HER. Yeah man I'd love that to. What about me?

Seriously if roles were reversed the story would be; I went to China, found some hottie, told her what she wanted to hear to get her in bed, saw her when it worked for me and not when it didn't, had a few other hotties I liked as much if not better, kept her strung along until the end with flirtations and texts and got annoyed when this mistress asked for anything from me besides what I wanted to give her and she didn't understand what a busy important man I was and be happy I gave her the time of day. At the end of the day this what this feels like for me and it is s****.

[1stTimer]

Ok Fine

After silence from her other than her 'tell your mother I love her' boarding the plane and her 'I don't want to make you sad. thank you' upon landing, bookended by "his" text to me about "his" take on the situation which is summarized as "She didn't want to move the relationship forward because of the challenges of language/distance/culture and she needs time and space to figure it out, she is not a young girl who can just have a relationship because of passion and feelings. She didn't want to get to the point of 'can't live without you' since she is away for at least 6 months'.

Largely BS for a # of reasons; 1 is if that were true it was a conversaton for 6 weeks ago. So *I* could protect my heart as well. Not when she gets on the plane from her friend after a month of 'nothing is wrong' and 'come to me in chengdu' and her friends all telling me how amazing I am and how happy she is and asking to meet my mother a week before she left and acting like it was the happiest moment of her life and again inviting me to Chengdu. Because whether she was protecting he OWN heart meanwhile she was decidedly getting ME to 'can't live without you'.

So I wrote him basically "As with our first translation, I cannot really answer you because it is not the whole truth and I can't add details she did not choose to share out of respect for her"

Meanwhile a week later I decided to finally answer her landing text "I don't want to make you sad" with "Mostly you make me happy. I hope Chengdu is treating you well". This is at 4pm here so 4am there. On her NY # since I've already deleted her from weChat in anger before she left. I didn't expect a reply.

I got one in 30 seconds. "Thank you! Please add me to wechat!" I figured hmm this must be auto-reply because it was so fast, so happy, 4am and why would she invite me back to weCbat when she was so upset I deleted her she could harldy speak to me since?

So I replied "ok thanks I will do that" just to see if I got the same auto-reply and got instead:

"I wish you would stop being so angry and unhappy! Please add me to wechat!"  Clearly not auto-reply. Clearly still not getting that 'angry and unhappy' comes from being treated with disregard for many weeks after ASKING me for a serious relationship.

I added her. Considered whether to make a first text from it since it is 4:30am but just said "Hi again thanks for the invite"

IMMEDIATE reply: "Please be more understanding of me. I have a lot of pressure from my poor English"

Wrote back: "I understand and I will try much harder. I appreciate how hard you have worked to communicate with me"

Now. I had thought I accidentally texted her an emotional text by accident which I was sending to a friend during the upheaval after dinner last week and it turns out I did. Because she now pastes it in the text and says "Please, what does this mean. Can you tell me?". She even zooms in to the part that says F****** (literally that since my text app won't curse).

It was a text where I asked my friend basically "I don't get it, we all had such an amazing time, the kid said it was the best night since he'd been here, my mother loved it, it seemed to make her so gloriously happy so I have no f***** idea what happened the next night"

So I explained: I accidentally send you the text, I was talking to a friend because I was upset and confused, it is not a curse to or about you, it is me stressing in my upset the "Why?" And I pointed out it was like her three ? after her Why! when she wanted to know why I deleted her.

No reply.

So I reached out to her friend T. And said can you talk to me please so you can explain this to her?

That conversation did not go well. Because he kept implying basically 'she's just not that into you'.  Which on one hand adds up to her behavior and on the other hand does not add up at all. But he clearly does not KNOW (he is 30 years younger, son of her best friend). I'm asking him why did they even bother to ask coming to meet my mother AND each spend an hour travelling there on her last Friday in the country? Why did it make her so happy? Why did she corner me and reinvite me to come live with her in her home? He says "Hmm maybe she likes you as a friend, I don't know". Knowing me you must know I'm getting spun out of control by now "A friend? She invited me the first time laying in bed, she invited me a dozen times since, she invited me after YOU told me we DO have a serious relationship she wants but she needs to meet my mother first. What the heck is going on here?. YOU told me how important it is for her as a Chinese woman to meet my parents!"

We texted and he said "I know it hurts but maybe it is better to know the truth sooner rather than leter" And I lost it on him "The truth? Sooner? I've been told for six weeks nothing is wrong by a woman who told me I had to be her BOYFRIEND that I was the first man since her husband Sooner? You both came to me 2 weeks ago and told me how serious this was for her and could she meet my mother? The truth? Sooner? You followed up our meeting  10 days ago with "I am so glad for you both that you find each other so special and intimate? Sooner? You just came to my mothers home and acted like we just got engaged. Who DOES this?" Bla bla.

He said something about "she was not sure yet if she wanted you to be her boyfriend since she is going back to china". "She wasn't "sure"? She INSISTED on it before we were intimate. She asked me point blank if she was my girlfriend, she told me point blank she would not be with me if I was with other women or a player, she made it clear this was serious, her FRIENDS tole me I better be serious because she was. Don't tell me know she has not been my girlfriend the whole time because she not only demanded it I honored it and her every day and if she was simply keeping me on a string until she flew out of town she dishonored me and she dishonored my mother"

I said something about if I wanted this I can get this from any American girl, the only truth I learned is Chinese girls are no different. He misunderstood I was criticizing Chinese women and I said no man, I have come to have such respect and love for Chinese people and culture in the few weeks with her, that is why this hurts so much. I have been treated like family and friends and seen values that I cherish and have come to love the people I have met including you.

IT went like that. Yep me at reactive. But deservedly so. Because IF what he says is true I have been made a fool of for weeks and my mother and her home were disrespected since she was clearly not there as my gf meeting my mother and had just spent 6 weeks likely stepping out on me while keeping me on a string. And clearly with intention because maybe you can excuse "nothing is wrong you have nothing to worry about" with cowardice (except she would never see me again so it would not have been hard) but "I want you to come to be with me in Chengdu" and inviting me out and intentionally have 6 of your married friends tell me how amazing and imporant I am to you and laughing and assuring me NOTHING is wrong and discuss our relationship for an hour is INTENTIONAL.

I despise her whole "stop being angry and unhappy" after the really as I see it disdainful way she has treated my life and it makes me really not like her at all. If you meet someone who has treated you with care and respect and honor you NEVER experienced in your life you owe them far more than getting annoyed when they get hurt or upset when you don't.  I'd say as a 54 year old woman in CHINA where 27 yo single women are looked down upon for dating she has some serious hard lessons ahead.

I don't know who is lying or what the lie is but there is a huge one here.  I don't disagree with her being scared, I don't disagree with needing to figure out the challenges. And I told him when he asked at the first meeting if she could decide whether to continue the relationship from China in a few days "No man she doesn't have to decide anything now. I just want to know if we DO have a serious connection she wants to figure out, we don't have to decide or commit to anything now. If we have something we'll figure it out now or later'. I had no plans to push for anything but writing our letters. And visiting her in Chengdu in the Winter as she asked  a dozen times for me to do. Now I'm some 'angry' and 'unhappy' guy and she is clueless why and that worries me more than any single other thing about her.

[1stTimer]

FYI has still not replied to my answers to her 'Please explain this' from Monday. New pics of her, however, driving her $290K Ferrari throughout Chengdu with her hot friends on a Gucci shopping trip extravaganza. This lady is not thinking about me. And I have entirely misjudged her.

[Skip]

I think it would be good to step back (go radio silent) for two or three weeks and absorb all of what has happened, 1T.

For what its worth, I don't think this is about lies or about using you. I think you were both very sincere in your efforts to build a relationship but didn't have a way to navigate a minor conflict and it got way out of hand.

I think we are all share the sadness in how this has turned out.

[Stjarna]

I'm so sorry, 1stTimer.   I am feeling your pain as this story unfolds and your realization of the situation develops, and especially your last post.  Just brutal.  Hugs.  

[1stTimer]

I think it would be good to step back (go radio silent) for two or three weeks and absorb all of what has happened, 1T.

For what its worth, I don't think this is about lies or about using you. I think you were both very sincere in your efforts to build a relationship but didn't have a way to navigate a minor conflict and it got way out of hand.

I think we are all share the sadness in how this has turned out.

Hi Skip thanks. I plan on much radio silence. I do not believe she was sincere. If you saw the pictures of her in Chengdu shopping you'd know what I mean. This is not the "I teach public school" "You are the first man I have been with since my husband be good to me", "No one has ever treated me so well" sweet and simple lady. The one who said she divorced because "I want a big life my husband does not".  Those weren't pictures of two NY chicks shopping at Saks Fifth Avenue. That was oligarch wealth trust fund Chinese girls tooling around in their SECOND Ferrrari strutting down the streets wearing $50k in clothes and holding another $50k in the bags.

THAT woman was not in love with some nice guy building a business with no money. THAT woman was laughing at me.

The BEST spin I can put on it is her family found out and KABOSHED it. Too many not good signs about deception; her being embarassed at the flowers I left for her. When I asked translator kid "T" on my flame out about THAT he said "it is just that she wanted to keep that a secret".

I don't think this is a simple situation at all. I think MUCH was going on and the meeting of my mother had far more agenda AND implications then I know. Clearly it was important, CLEARLY my mother/home passed some critical test because her joy could not have been faked except by perhaps Meryl Streep in her heyday.

I go back in my mind to the Shen Yun in early October. Those must have been elders or family friends. Because as great as that dinner was and as much as it was about me, and how great I am to her, and how she prays and can't sleep for me, at the end of the dinner it was politely made clear to me it would be better if I got myself home instead of via the SUV they'd driven me there with "Oh can you get yourself home or do you need a ride?". I'm savvy enough to know the answer to that question. And two couples whisker her into the car, one couple said "she wants to know if you'd like to see her Wednesday" and then they drove off and I subway'd with the other couple.

When I see those pictures I realize I'm dealing not with a school teacher and not with some ambitious successful Chinese woman but someone from a prominent Chinese family. I can't imagine there was not huge pressure on her.

Unless I go with she was some insane woman just using me as a fling and f-ing with my head. My friend points out that NO ONE a few weeks into a relatinship goes to Church to pray for you, can't sleep or eat worrying over you, or says "I am there for you no matter what, I support you dearest forever" unless they are 18, since anyone over 30 has had enough relationships to temper that. However I pointed out IF she is not lying she was married for 30+ years and I am her first.

I don't know anymore man. This is not your usual messed up story.

My plan is to do radio silence for sure. If he did share my posts I can't help it, I didn't call her any names I simply said IF she was lying than she dishonored my home. I did say (to him) that my mother did not want her in the home at first due to what happned in October and that I begged my mother to relent because "she is not the ladies you are used to she is special and amazing".

Anyway. So far no reply from her. BUT.  She has not blocked me or deleted me or blocked her posts AND she is the one who got me BACK on to wechat 1 minute after I reached out.

I'l keep the kid in my orbit though I'm not sure I trust him and go silent on her.

IF I meant to her what she said and at 54 with that kind of wealth and social life she reallly never met anyone who made her so happy or treated her so well, no  amount of Ferrari's or Guccie will change that.

Thank you all for all your support and kind words, I feel like I should write a screenplay on this one!

[1stTimer]

Dang. I realize I went from "I don't think she is sincere" at the top of my post to the "I believe her" at the bottom. That is what is so MESSED up here.

[Skip]

I do not believe she was sincere.

It is hard to see the dinner with your mom as anything other than sincere and hopeful.

[Skip]

september and october cannot co-exist,
our translation meeting and mom's dinner and his letter cannot co-exist,
the things he said later and his letter cannot co-exist.

These things can co-exist. It seems they very much do coexist. Let me suggest the following “food for thought”. I spent a fair amount of time putting this together for you 1T, because we are family and we care. Try not to reject it out of handle as you most often do. You are the only who will benefit from grasping this.

A relationship is a series of transactions and the trajectory of the relationship (particularly a budding relationship) adjusts after each transaction. There are social cues that we need to look for to adjust both our expectations and our behavior to stay in sync with our new partner and to nurture the relationship while at the same time evaluate it.

The majority of relationship pairings fall apart in the first 90 days because the later transactions don't live up to the early expectations. It's why people say pace your expectations in the first 90 – 180 days... .don’t get ahead of where the relationship is.

You have reported some great transactions in September that have really connected you. The trajectory, clearly, shifted a lot in the last month.  I think some social cues were missed/misinterpreted. This lead to some very negative transactions. Deal breaker types.

If you juxtaposition the timing of the positive events in the relationship with these negative events you will often see a trajectory change. Conceptually, yours probably looked something like this.



Even though the dinner with you family was a vey positive event, I think things were far more tentative when you met for going away dinner than you realized. The social cues where a month of radio-silence and her focus on your mother in her texts.

So what happened to the trajectory here?

As you reported, you were upset when she preferred a lunch date for three vs a dinner date for two. She had been backing away from one-on-one events in her apartment.

I don't disagree with her being scared, I don't disagree with needing to figure out the challenges.

Yes. Her feelings altered the trajectory a bit. You understood intellectually - you told us all about it. But you two couldn't/didn't have a meaningful discussion to resolve or align either of your issues. Instead, you went full force and broke up the relationship.

I think this was a far more significant event than you know. You have said that you think it wasn't a big deal. But consider this.  The trajectory changed significantly. She withdrew. The majority of the last 30 days were her in withdrawal/avoidance/shut down.

You did a good job of launching a healing effort and raising hope all the way around with your conciliatory letter, effort to listen to her concerns, and the family dinner. That bumped the trajectory upward, but the situation was still very tentative. These things don’t fully resolve over a dinner – it takes time. There was an important social cue here. The exuberant reaction to your mom and her mixed reaction you. Yes, she still talked about you traveling to Chengdu, but there was also 30 days of radio silence, no invite to the going away party and other negative things to juxtaposition.

I think there was hope and alsowariness going into the going away dinner. Was she going to see the 1T that was a strong, great guy, and ready to play the long game and who she was attracted to – or was she going to she the guy who was quick to anger and unhappy and that she hid from for a month?

She saw the latter. Things quickly went west with your sullenness to her reaction to your prepared Chinese quotation.  She cut the dinner short.  Was it because she only allowed 20 minutes for dinner? Was it because she was on high alert, things were going downhill, and she bailed.

You reacted did the same - you bailed. This was then another seriously negative event. You deleted her on wechat. Then the angry characterization of her expressed concerns after the going away dinner as 1/2 truths (lies) relayed through a third party. Then the 4 AM text.  ½ truths is strong statement.  

1T, if you juxtaposition the events and follow the trajectory from the breakup through the dinner with your mom to the going away dinner you will see a lot of very positive transactions and a lot of very negative transactions. In the last 30 days, there was 3 hours of positive transactions and 29 days of non-transactions and negative transactions. This was not an "almost marriage engagement" - far from it.

You were/are pushing her in very negative ways hoping that she would see her actions as wrong and unfair to you and be jolted to make things better for you. You have strong beliefs that this is a justified approach and that your partners will respond well to it – but they don’t. People don’t.  When members tried to center you, you heard them, you rejected them, and stayed the course.  She systematically withdrew from an angry, unhappy man.

What about me?

This is million dollar question.  Where is the line between healthy boundaries and destructive/defensive over reactions?

Having strong values and boundaries is important. How we introduce them into a relationship - how we communicate constructively and allow for learning - how we constructively ramp up enforcement/commitment - is really important. It's common for a new couple to have values that don't exactly line up and to need to work at aligning them.

Please hear this. Every man here would have felt hurt when she started backing away from the one-on-ones in her apartment. That's very human of you. It's common reaction for the women too - feeling vulnerable and backing up. This is one of many obstacles men face in relationships and women generally look to them to take the lead on and show their strength and compassion. There are ways to be constructive and navigate it to positive outcome.

You have argued that you were vulnerable and she needed to show you compassion. You said this about the last women, too. I think the traditional gender role and expectation is for the man to attend to the women's early feelings of vulnerability. I'm sure there are some women who would be more highly attuned to a man's vulnerabilities - but to many this dips into the area often tagged as clingyness.

I know it's hard to hear, but this  played out in a similar the last relationship, defensiveness and struggles, a grand gesture and peak, and then an immediate falling out, anger (and then the post relationship grand gesture recovery effort).

You chose you path with eyes wide open. You believe it. That is your right. It is your life. You had many people trying to redirect you - men and women. You debated most of their comments. At one point you checked out because you saw peoples advice as detrimental. You can stay the course.  You can change your approach - it will be hard, of course.  Good mental health is hard. It's often about making hard choices at times like this.

[1stTimer]

I hear what you are saying Skip but still believe the truth here is much more complex.

I would not really know how to change anything here even with the full knowledge of what you said here.

I was very centered even with her 180 on me, at some point when she was "sick" I offered to cook or shop or anything else she needed but did ask, since it was now a week of the same, if there was anything wrong she wanted to discuss. Not angry, not whiney, just asked.

Could I have handled the cancellation of dinner to lunch better? Hell yeah.

I still believe no matter how I handled this it would have turned out the same.

There is something huge behind the scenes I do not know about.

I cannot help being "emotional" it is exactly what she (and the last) liked about me so; in tune, supportive, affectionate, strong. But I can't just turn that off when it comes to me. I can't be with another person who cannot handle their own emotions and see what it does to me. If I'm going to provide this part of myself that clearly she and other women respond to so strongly, perhaps I have to find a different way to handle the 'slights' but I can't just be some other guy who says 'f it, she can have all the 'tude she wants, I'll still bang her later'.

So I get what you are saying and could find a way to channel that anger/fear better and more calmly. But even if I had here Skip, there would still be (all the ther crazy stuff I don't know anything about aside) a woman who is selfish and has no ability to reciprocate the empathy or caring. I get she loves how much I take of her, what a gentleman I am. So what do I get out of that? A woman who loves being taken care of. And... what about me?

Nothing I did that night (believe me please, I was there) would have changed what she did. She was either running or so pre-occupied with herself and her business she did not even notice or care. She was not upset I was upset, she was SHOCKED. Or so she said. She also said she noticed I was upset but DID NOT KNOW WHY. Both of these terrify me. Neither of them is in my control however I behave or act or react.

So I'm hearing what you are saying and get I played a role 'doing what I do' but there is a) way more going on here than that and b) even w/o that I still need to have expectations of women who give as much back as they get and not just bask in being so well treated. They said "she said you are so nice you never get mad when she is late" and I need a woman who knows that mean DO NOT BE LATE FOR HIM not I CAN BE LATE FOR HIM (but if something happens he won't be mad).

I'll hope the kid didn't share the text just that he's hurt and confused. Her first reaction might be oh screw him but I'm betting with her own few weeks to digest this there will be further contact.

I WILL say since what he 'revealed' (again not  sure he has any idea what he is talkng about since he's 'revealed' a bunch of divergent things) took me by suprise and spun me around a good plan would have been to know going in I didn't have all the facts and to remind myself to just listen not talk.

If her take from this is "he is an angry man" and she can't see her own behavior she is not for me. I can see "she is a selfish woman" and try to understand her right?

I get it; traditional gender roles. Yet if we were doing traditional gender roles, she'd never have experienced me any differently than she has experienced other men before. "He is so senstive and caring. F*** his feelings though" is not a formula/woman that works for me. If I'm going to figure out ways to channel my reactions into a more positive communication, then I also need to find a woman who if she can appreciate the caring/emotion then also respect it and me. Otherwise she can go find stoic and give up the rest.

We'll see if the oligarch girl gets back to me or not. Positive note is she invited me into weChat (shocked) at 4am the moment I texted her. I could never have gotten back into her orbit w/o that invite. AND she has not blocked me. If he had shared what i said or she took it so poorly I'd be blocked and deleted by now. Likewise his reaction to my apology and invite was quite friendly and accepting.

I think time will be interesting with this.

Meanwhile I'll try to figure out some better ways to notice/react.  I need some dispassionate voice on my shoulder not just observing but also warning me before hand like "Ok 1sttimer.  Tiptoe lightly on the Chinese endearment, she might not be ready to respond as much as she loves that. So just say it and move on". Or "Ok 1sttimer, she seems distracted and uncomfortable. Maybe she doesn't want to run away from your life she is just tentative and conflicted just like you. Smile, make a joke, don't assume the worst, give her some space". Or put some Private at the Claxon station to turn it off when it trips. I dunno man. Next time I'm coming back as a woman :|

[1stTimer]

I think there was hope and alsowariness going into the going away dinner. Was she going to see the 1T that was a strong, great guy, and ready to play the long game and who she was attracted to – or was she going to she the guy who was quick to anger and unhappy and that she hid from for a month?.

To this though; her hiding was not due to my anger. All the way up to Shen Yun and at Shen Yun this was something she loved. She had started hiding two weeks before this. With only love and support from me. Even at Shen Yun her friends told me how happy she was I never got mad etc etc etc.  So I'm saying again that her hiding/running was not because of me. I believe she or her friend believe what they say; that she retreated from the relationship (just as I said) because she was scared to get to "I can't live without him" (which is what a month of plans together as she asked would clearly have done). Except she a) didn't communicate it and b) didn't stop pulling me in. So, my anger and reactiveness aside, that had a HUGE impact on what went down. She withdrew her heart and body and affection to protect herself but didn't tell me why AND kept dragging me back in ("nothing wrong", "come to me in chengdu", the dinner with my mother she could have been WAY cooler about and not made so momentous, etc). Yep I could have handled that better but it played a huge role in what went down with two people clearly nuts about each other about to be separated for a 1/2 a year.

Clarifying that while I can see how my reactiveness affected this whole thing, it is NOT what triggered it.

If I take what happened as real and no one bs-ing anyone than I see (my reactiveness aside and her lack of communication aside) as:

• A man who has been w/o family/love for many years who fell in love for the second time in his lfe and the first time in close to two decades
• A woman who was married 2-3 decades who likely also fell in love with a man who treated and cared for her in a way she never has before (not my words, many other people even the kid)
• Almost zero language between them (which makes this whole thing so freaking amazing)
• An impending separation of at least 1/2 a year
• As much as she said she didn't care and admired my work and diligence so much, a VAST gulf in family wealth (middle>upper middle vs oligarch level wealth) and likely a family that disapproved. I'll repeat I think it was my mother and her apartment that served to make her feel better too. We are not wealthy and lost most of what we did have during my father's illness, yet we are in a nice sunken living room apartment 10 feet from Central Park West. My mother still often fails to understand what most people assume when they see that.
  
• Some insane attraction that has somehow managed so survive 3 months, almost no full conversation, several conflicts, 7,500 miles.
  

Radio Silence for me and some work on myself I guess is in order. Maybe this resurrects at a later date... .

[1stTimer]

By the by;

My reaction to her weChat's was, as far as I can tell, not 'reactive' at all.

Her opening 4am gambit after getting me BACk into her orbit was:

"Hi! Please understand me more. I have a lot of pressure because of my poor english"

To which I replied:

"I will. I promise. You work so hard to understand me, I know it must be difficult. I will work harder to listen and understand you I promise that"

Then she posted the screen shot of the inadvertent text I sent her, meant for my friend and second one with a close up of the "f******" and said

"What do these mean?" I' don't understand"

"Please tell me"

I told her I was very confused at our dinner after our beautiful night

And was asking a friend to help me understand better what I might have done wrong.

And the f**** is me just stressing "I have no idea what I did wrong" as "I have no f***** idea what i did wrong!"

To make it hopefully clearer, I said it is like the ? after your why to me. It is me being confused and not understanding and wanting to badly.

Other stuff but mostly (I hope) did not accuse or yell or react other than to make sure a) I was not cursing at her or about her b) I was confused and wanting to undertand and c) blaming myself.

She's back home after 1/2 a year, clearly living it up and catching up with family.

She didn't block me or block me from her updates or delete me.

She didn't skewer me.

He didn't block me.

He seems friendly.

So I'm hoping she is sitting on it until she can figure it out.

I know one thing, even though not apparent because I can't hear her talk; she is freaking smart as hell.

More to come?

[1stTimer]

Please hear this. Every man here would have felt hurt when she started backing away from the one-on-ones in her apartment. That's very human of you. It's common reaction for the women too - feeling vulnerable and backing up. This is one of many obstacles men face in relationships and women generally look to them to take the lead on and show their strength and compassion. There are ways to be constructive and navigate it to positive outcome.

Got this Skip and I, based in part on what I learned here.

I was shut down the day after the whole "I can't wait to spend a month with you".

A dinner turned into "you go your home I go my home"

A walk in the park friday turned into "I'm going to queens to be with friends we'll do it tomorrow" when I called Thursday to set up the time.

When I called Saturday it turned into "I'm writing letters to China, enjoy yourself".

When I invited her Sunday to meet my friends (!) she had to go to the spa instead.

When I replied to her oh so sexy spa pic SHE sent to ME with "You just took my breath away" she ignored it.

Radio-silence on Monday and a call on Tuesday to say she had a cold so had to cancel the going away dinner I was to cook for her and her friends on Friday. By that point I was concerned and not mad, I offered to cook or shop or get medicine or care for her, whatever she wanted. And said casually 'look if there is anything going on between us you want to talk about, I am here".

After Shen Yun dinner she was whisked away home and I was clearly not to go with her.

By the time we got to basically 'we are only hanging out if it is with my friends' we were now into 2 1/2 weeks of ... .nothing... .after her excitement at 4 weeks extra for us.

Yeah I get I should have noticed at this point the build up of anxiety. But I didn't. I was happy after Shen Yun, especially with her friends all gushing about us and me and her and the friend ending the evening saying 'It can be hard on American-Chinese couples but I know a few that are very happy and made it work".

I was unprepared both for her rejecting dinner with me since her friends could not make it or how much had already built up.

I guess I'm saying; I had started to work on being reactive and had done a pretty good job by then navigating it, better than I would have done a year ago for sure.

I definitely need to find a way then to deal with the surge since it overwhelms me. I mentioned once my visualization for the wave coming in I jump with but these aren't waves, they are sudden riptides.

[1stTimer]

You chose you path with eyes wide open. You believe it. That is your right. It is your life. You had many people trying to redirect you - men and women. You debated most of their comments. At one point you checked out because you saw peoples advice as detrimental. You can stay the course.  You can change your approach - it will be hard, of course.  Good mental health is hard. It's often about making hard choices at times like this.

And. I again see your overall point here. However. I had two "bad moves" here; the break-up reaction after several weeks of distancing (which had nothing to do with my behavior) and the last dinner which I over-reacted to. Note she noticed I was upset (and amazingly could not understand why) and never bothered to even ask.  Mostly I comported myself well and I'd say in a huge cauldron of a situation brimming with a number of huge triggers.

But the attempts at redirection were at not trying to reconnect to her, not doing a "Grand Gesture" and letting her walk away as if it was a summer fling and 'keeping it light'. That is what I rejected. And rightly so AND it almost worked (and might ultimately who knows). My instincts on what we had would seem pretty spot on (despite The Kid's Last Act) and it got me a reconnection, a sit-down, an amazing dinner, a renewed and highly emotional invite to live with her, a going away dinner and presents for my mother.  That I hadn't learned my lesson from The Breakup move is sad and telling; sit back, observe, don't react. Working on that. But my instincts to not let this go, to make a gesture, the gesture to make, and the steps after all worked wonders.  Perhaps just rolling with the punches the last night would have resulted in a different final parting, but I still think the main behind-the-scenes issues are there, the same ones that preceded the whole 'Breakup'.  And when I checked out was not before our last dinner or before The Break-up; it was afterwards when it was suggested I walk away.

Not saying this all to 'debate'; as usual though I think my instincts are pretty spot on about what is going on and what to do. It is my reactions in the moment when I get overwhelmed/triggered that suck.